Whats breaking cloak v 99999

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

All of yall nightblades complaining about others hating on cloak.

You can talk all you want, make all the arguments you care to. But I will shoot this conversation down. There's no rebuke to this.

There's evidence IN GAME that cloak is as powerful as everyone is saying it is. The evidence is that nightblades who use cloak are able to stack nothing but damage and the sustain needed for cloak.

No other class in the game has the capability to run all damage and survive the way cloak allows. No one. I run an absolute glass canon magplar. I SHRED....but get shredded. I've seen many mag and Stam builds of all classes attempt full damage and it's the same thing. They get the damage you NBs have but drop to a fart in the wind.

Cloak is the single best defensive skill in the game, and unlike other defense skills that doesn't heal (dodge roll, streak, mist.) You don't have a ramping cost of cloak. If you choose to run cloak there are no tradeoffs to running full damage. The only counters to the skill are two reveal skills that must be slotted and cast by ur enemy and a pretty OP potion that is very rare on the battlefield.

Sure you can be pulled out of it, and sure you can die easily when your not in cloak, but it's so easy to be IN cloak and not be detected you'll survive most encounters you come across. There is nothing more oppressive and irritating in this game to play against than an extremely well played NB that knows the ins and outs of cloak. Able to 25% health you before you can break free and when you do he's back in cloak for a second open. It's ridiculous. I get it, you like the stealth gameplay, and I agree with you it needs to be in the game...but something needs to change with it. Ramping cost, removal of guaranteed crits...something, I'm not the one to make that decision. But it needs to be done.

Just to add to this point. On PC NA there is a NB who regularly does BG in a full glass cannon build with Force Pulse and Asylum Destro. He would charge up a heavy attack, then Force pulse you from stealth and immediately cloak again.

What make it so annoying to fight him are:

1) He’s only visible for less than a second. Sometimes I only see where the heavy attack and Force Pulse appear, but not the actual character.

2) He repositions extremely fast, so most likely nearly capped in speed, making it really hard to pin point where he is

3) He does a CRAP ton of damage

I have tried using detect potion against him, but because he’s always at range and has super fast movement speed, by the time I see him, I’m already out of melee range. Now I have to sprint towards him before the detect potion runs out. That’s a lot of effort to counter 1 ability…


I know for a fact this is only possible because of Cloak. People often say Cloak is too easy to be revealed but when used correctly and smartly it is the best defensive AND offensive ability in the game.

There's multiple groups of NB doing this in cyro on PC EU right now too. Fun fact, they all still have 30k health and insane healing with offering + vigor, so even when you do catch them its impossible to kill them because they dodge roll cancel offering for a full heal straight into invis/LoS (or both).

Yea, I see them do this all the time too lol. I went to Cyrodiil earlier and was sniped by 3 NBs. All of them seemed to be synchronized.

At least with 3 DKs I can see where they are and take the appropriate measures. How am I supposed to do anything when 3 NBs are Cloaking left and right lol.

SandandStars

^ fair point ^

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

All of yall nightblades complaining about others hating on cloak.

You can talk all you want, make all the arguments you care to. But I will shoot this conversation down. There's no rebuke to this.

There's evidence IN GAME that cloak is as powerful as everyone is saying it is. The evidence is that nightblades who use cloak are able to stack nothing but damage and the sustain needed for cloak.

No other class in the game has the capability to run all damage and survive the way cloak allows. No one. I run an absolute glass canon magplar. I SHRED....but get shredded. I've seen many mag and Stam builds of all classes attempt full damage and it's the same thing. They get the damage you NBs have but drop to a fart in the wind.

Cloak is the single best defensive skill in the game, and unlike other defense skills that doesn't heal (dodge roll, streak, mist.) You don't have a ramping cost of cloak. If you choose to run cloak there are no tradeoffs to running full damage. The only counters to the skill are two reveal skills that must be slotted and cast by ur enemy and a pretty OP potion that is very rare on the battlefield.

Sure you can be pulled out of it, and sure you can die easily when your not in cloak, but it's so easy to be IN cloak and not be detected you'll survive most encounters you come across. There is nothing more oppressive and irritating in this game to play against than an extremely well played NB that knows the ins and outs of cloak. Able to 25% health you before you can break free and when you do he's back in cloak for a second open. It's ridiculous. I get it, you like the stealth gameplay, and I agree with you it needs to be in the game...but something needs to change with it. Ramping cost, removal of guaranteed crits...something, I'm not the one to make that decision. But it needs to be done.

Just to add to this point. On PC NA there is a NB who regularly does BG in a full glass cannon build with Force Pulse and Asylum Destro. He would charge up a heavy attack, then Force pulse you from stealth and immediately cloak again.

What make it so annoying to fight him are:

1) He’s only visible for less than a second. Sometimes I only see where the heavy attack and Force Pulse appear, but not the actual character.

2) He repositions extremely fast, so most likely nearly capped in speed, making it really hard to pin point where he is

3) He does a CRAP ton of damage

I have tried using detect potion against him, but because he’s always at range and has super fast movement speed, by the time I see him, I’m already out of melee range. Now I have to sprint towards him before the detect potion runs out. That’s a lot of effort to counter 1 ability…


I know for a fact this is only possible because of Cloak. People often say Cloak is too easy to be revealed but when used correctly and smartly it is the best defensive AND offensive ability in the game.

There's multiple groups of NB doing this in cyro on PC EU right now too. Fun fact, they all still have 30k health and insane healing with offering + vigor, so even when you do catch them its impossible to kill them because they dodge roll cancel offering for a full heal straight into invis/LoS (or both).

Yea, I see them do this all the time too lol. I went to Cyrodiil earlier and was sniped by 3 NBs. All of them seemed to be synchronized.

At least with 3 DKs I can see where they are and take the appropriate measures. How am I supposed to do anything when 3 NBs are Cloaking left and right lol.

I wasn't even talking about the traditional snipe gankblades (which I find ok currently), it's quite literally that force pulse + heavy attack build you mentioned being ran in cyro by groups of NBs. Also, because the "combo" is 1 force pulse + 1 heavy attack, it's free to cast since they get the mag back from the heavy attack, they get to gank from range for free and use all of their resources to survive if they get revealed or to remain in cloak.
Just watching it happen to others is plain obnoxious, can't imagine how frustrated those who do chase the distraction tanks must feel.

Oh and like I said, even when revealed they still have offering, vigor, path and dodge rolls/blocking to fall back on to easily survive counter attacks.

I counter ganked one of them with my NB on a more brawler focused version of the build (pure defensive set back bar), because I wanted to see how squishy they were to get that kind of damage, they were definitely not squishy, not by a long shot.
That force pulse build actually makes the old savage werewolf bow procsorc build look balanced by comparison, and I don't say that lightly, that is just how broken that build is (and no, I will not be revealing what I think it is, I don't want that build getting out more than it already has).

DrNukenstein

That's ranged blade. That is a problem. That is an unsportsmanlike way to use cloak and absolutely needs to be reigned it.

The problem is concealed weapon propping that nonsense up. That lazy and cheesy build didn't really work until the class could have constant minor Expedition (to get away) and Major Berserk (to make up for lost damage from being ranged)

Vaqual

StaticWave wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

All of yall nightblades complaining about others hating on cloak.

You can talk all you want, make all the arguments you care to. But I will shoot this conversation down. There's no rebuke to this.

There's evidence IN GAME that cloak is as powerful as everyone is saying it is. The evidence is that nightblades who use cloak are able to stack nothing but damage and the sustain needed for cloak.

No other class in the game has the capability to run all damage and survive the way cloak allows. No one. I run an absolute glass canon magplar. I SHRED....but get shredded. I've seen many mag and Stam builds of all classes attempt full damage and it's the same thing. They get the damage you NBs have but drop to a fart in the wind.

Cloak is the single best defensive skill in the game, and unlike other defense skills that doesn't heal (dodge roll, streak, mist.) You don't have a ramping cost of cloak. If you choose to run cloak there are no tradeoffs to running full damage. The only counters to the skill are two reveal skills that must be slotted and cast by ur enemy and a pretty OP potion that is very rare on the battlefield.

Sure you can be pulled out of it, and sure you can die easily when your not in cloak, but it's so easy to be IN cloak and not be detected you'll survive most encounters you come across. There is nothing more oppressive and irritating in this game to play against than an extremely well played NB that knows the ins and outs of cloak. Able to 25% health you before you can break free and when you do he's back in cloak for a second open. It's ridiculous. I get it, you like the stealth gameplay, and I agree with you it needs to be in the game...but something needs to change with it. Ramping cost, removal of guaranteed crits...something, I'm not the one to make that decision. But it needs to be done.

Just to add to this point. On PC NA there is a NB who regularly does BG in a full glass cannon build with Force Pulse and Asylum Destro. He would charge up a heavy attack, then Force pulse you from stealth and immediately cloak again.

What make it so annoying to fight him are:

1) He’s only visible for less than a second. Sometimes I only see where the heavy attack and Force Pulse appear, but not the actual character.

2) He repositions extremely fast, so most likely nearly capped in speed, making it really hard to pin point where he is

3) He does a CRAP ton of damage

I have tried using detect potion against him, but because he’s always at range and has super fast movement speed, by the time I see him, I’m already out of melee range. Now I have to sprint towards him before the detect potion runs out. That’s a lot of effort to counter 1 ability…


I know for a fact this is only possible because of Cloak. People often say Cloak is too easy to be revealed but when used correctly and smartly it is the best defensive AND offensive ability in the game.

StaticWave

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

All of yall nightblades complaining about others hating on cloak.

You can talk all you want, make all the arguments you care to. But I will shoot this conversation down. There's no rebuke to this.

There's evidence IN GAME that cloak is as powerful as everyone is saying it is. The evidence is that nightblades who use cloak are able to stack nothing but damage and the sustain needed for cloak.

No other class in the game has the capability to run all damage and survive the way cloak allows. No one. I run an absolute glass canon magplar. I SHRED....but get shredded. I've seen many mag and Stam builds of all classes attempt full damage and it's the same thing. They get the damage you NBs have but drop to a fart in the wind.

Cloak is the single best defensive skill in the game, and unlike other defense skills that doesn't heal (dodge roll, streak, mist.) You don't have a ramping cost of cloak. If you choose to run cloak there are no tradeoffs to running full damage. The only counters to the skill are two reveal skills that must be slotted and cast by ur enemy and a pretty OP potion that is very rare on the battlefield.

Sure you can be pulled out of it, and sure you can die easily when your not in cloak, but it's so easy to be IN cloak and not be detected you'll survive most encounters you come across. There is nothing more oppressive and irritating in this game to play against than an extremely well played NB that knows the ins and outs of cloak. Able to 25% health you before you can break free and when you do he's back in cloak for a second open. It's ridiculous. I get it, you like the stealth gameplay, and I agree with you it needs to be in the game...but something needs to change with it. Ramping cost, removal of guaranteed crits...something, I'm not the one to make that decision. But it needs to be done.

Just to add to this point. On PC NA there is a NB who regularly does BG in a full glass cannon build with Force Pulse and Asylum Destro. He would charge up a heavy attack, then Force pulse you from stealth and immediately cloak again.

What make it so annoying to fight him are:

1) He’s only visible for less than a second. Sometimes I only see where the heavy attack and Force Pulse appear, but not the actual character.

2) He repositions extremely fast, so most likely nearly capped in speed, making it really hard to pin point where he is

3) He does a CRAP ton of damage

I have tried using detect potion against him, but because he’s always at range and has super fast movement speed, by the time I see him, I’m already out of melee range. Now I have to sprint towards him before the detect potion runs out. That’s a lot of effort to counter 1 ability…


I know for a fact this is only possible because of Cloak. People often say Cloak is too easy to be revealed but when used correctly and smartly it is the best defensive AND offensive ability in the game.

Find me bar space then?

Vaqual

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

All of yall nightblades complaining about others hating on cloak.

You can talk all you want, make all the arguments you care to. But I will shoot this conversation down. There's no rebuke to this.

There's evidence IN GAME that cloak is as powerful as everyone is saying it is. The evidence is that nightblades who use cloak are able to stack nothing but damage and the sustain needed for cloak.

No other class in the game has the capability to run all damage and survive the way cloak allows. No one. I run an absolute glass canon magplar. I SHRED....but get shredded. I've seen many mag and Stam builds of all classes attempt full damage and it's the same thing. They get the damage you NBs have but drop to a fart in the wind.

Cloak is the single best defensive skill in the game, and unlike other defense skills that doesn't heal (dodge roll, streak, mist.) You don't have a ramping cost of cloak. If you choose to run cloak there are no tradeoffs to running full damage. The only counters to the skill are two reveal skills that must be slotted and cast by ur enemy and a pretty OP potion that is very rare on the battlefield.

Sure you can be pulled out of it, and sure you can die easily when your not in cloak, but it's so easy to be IN cloak and not be detected you'll survive most encounters you come across. There is nothing more oppressive and irritating in this game to play against than an extremely well played NB that knows the ins and outs of cloak. Able to 25% health you before you can break free and when you do he's back in cloak for a second open. It's ridiculous. I get it, you like the stealth gameplay, and I agree with you it needs to be in the game...but something needs to change with it. Ramping cost, removal of guaranteed crits...something, I'm not the one to make that decision. But it needs to be done.

Just to add to this point. On PC NA there is a NB who regularly does BG in a full glass cannon build with Force Pulse and Asylum Destro. He would charge up a heavy attack, then Force pulse you from stealth and immediately cloak again.

What make it so annoying to fight him are:

1) He’s only visible for less than a second. Sometimes I only see where the heavy attack and Force Pulse appear, but not the actual character.

2) He repositions extremely fast, so most likely nearly capped in speed, making it really hard to pin point where he is

3) He does a CRAP ton of damage

I have tried using detect potion against him, but because he’s always at range and has super fast movement speed, by the time I see him, I’m already out of melee range. Now I have to sprint towards him before the detect potion runs out. That’s a lot of effort to counter 1 ability…


I know for a fact this is only possible because of Cloak. People often say Cloak is too easy to be revealed but when used correctly and smartly it is the best defensive AND offensive ability in the game.

Find me bar space then?

Ah yes, my bad. I forgot that slotting anything that is not the mathematical optimum for at least 51 % of encounters is not an option and compromises are are unfair for sorcs.

DrNukenstein

StaticWave wrote: »

Find me bar space then?

Bound armaments, curse, crystal weapon, mages fury. One of those 4 could arguably be worth trading for the ability to lock one class out of their trick for 20-30 seconds if that's what you want to do. I'd drop curse to make it work. Curse is what makes sorc combos telegraphed.

Turtle_Bot

DrNukenstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Find me bar space then?

Bound armaments, curse, crystal weapon, mages fury. One of those 4 could arguably be worth trading for the ability to lock one class out of their trick for 20-30 seconds if that's what you want to do. I'd drop curse to make it work. Curse is what makes sorc combos telegraphed.

Fury is barely ran already, it's too buggy/unreliable.

The other 3 abilities are already struggling to find room for all 3 on sorc bars (typically its only 2/3 being ran already).

Then there's the issue of slotting other, more generically impactful abilities, such as either guild reveal ability for major prophecy, RaT for snare removal + speed (+ minor force if you're a magsorc), ele sus for breach, etc. Curse makes for a sort of middle ground, providing a delayed burst while also potentially revealing cloaked NBs, because unlike NBs, sorc doesn't have any flexibility in its bar space, especially if it wants to pull off any of its burst combos that will actually deal any significant amount of damage while still slotting the bare minimum mandatory defensive tools.

Maybe if lightning form + morphs provided major prophecy/savagery (removing the need for the guild reveal skills) AND curse granted major breach (removing the need for ele sus) it would be possible to fit structured entropy into a build, unfortunately ZOS doesn't want to allow sorcs to have access to buffs/debuffs outside of sorcery/brutality and resolve, even if the other buffs/debuffs are supposed to be the basic/generic ones that all classes should have (prophecy/savagery and breach).

I also wouldn't be surprised if ZOS fixes that interaction that entropy reveals the NB in the near future, it doesn't seem like an intended interaction (even if it's one of the only things that somewhat reliably helps against range blades abusing cloak). Then what are people supposed to do?

StaticWave

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

All of yall nightblades complaining about others hating on cloak.

You can talk all you want, make all the arguments you care to. But I will shoot this conversation down. There's no rebuke to this.

There's evidence IN GAME that cloak is as powerful as everyone is saying it is. The evidence is that nightblades who use cloak are able to stack nothing but damage and the sustain needed for cloak.

No other class in the game has the capability to run all damage and survive the way cloak allows. No one. I run an absolute glass canon magplar. I SHRED....but get shredded. I've seen many mag and Stam builds of all classes attempt full damage and it's the same thing. They get the damage you NBs have but drop to a fart in the wind.

Cloak is the single best defensive skill in the game, and unlike other defense skills that doesn't heal (dodge roll, streak, mist.) You don't have a ramping cost of cloak. If you choose to run cloak there are no tradeoffs to running full damage. The only counters to the skill are two reveal skills that must be slotted and cast by ur enemy and a pretty OP potion that is very rare on the battlefield.

Sure you can be pulled out of it, and sure you can die easily when your not in cloak, but it's so easy to be IN cloak and not be detected you'll survive most encounters you come across. There is nothing more oppressive and irritating in this game to play against than an extremely well played NB that knows the ins and outs of cloak. Able to 25% health you before you can break free and when you do he's back in cloak for a second open. It's ridiculous. I get it, you like the stealth gameplay, and I agree with you it needs to be in the game...but something needs to change with it. Ramping cost, removal of guaranteed crits...something, I'm not the one to make that decision. But it needs to be done.

Just to add to this point. On PC NA there is a NB who regularly does BG in a full glass cannon build with Force Pulse and Asylum Destro. He would charge up a heavy attack, then Force pulse you from stealth and immediately cloak again.

What make it so annoying to fight him are:

1) He’s only visible for less than a second. Sometimes I only see where the heavy attack and Force Pulse appear, but not the actual character.

2) He repositions extremely fast, so most likely nearly capped in speed, making it really hard to pin point where he is

3) He does a CRAP ton of damage

I have tried using detect potion against him, but because he’s always at range and has super fast movement speed, by the time I see him, I’m already out of melee range. Now I have to sprint towards him before the detect potion runs out. That’s a lot of effort to counter 1 ability…


I know for a fact this is only possible because of Cloak. People often say Cloak is too easy to be revealed but when used correctly and smartly it is the best defensive AND offensive ability in the game.

Find me bar space then?

Ah yes, my bad. I forgot that slotting anything that is not the mathematical optimum for at least 51 % of encounters is not an option and compromises are are unfair for sorcs.

Yet you have classes like NB and Warden that can slot almost every single buff in the game and still has damage. Sounds really fair to me

StaticWave

DrNukenstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Find me bar space then?

Bound armaments, curse, crystal weapon, mages fury. One of those 4 could arguably be worth trading for the ability to lock one class out of their trick for 20-30 seconds if that's what you want to do. I'd drop curse to make it work. Curse is what makes sorc combos telegraphed.

This is my current bar space:



I slotted Chudan and use Spell crit potions to make room for 2 more slots. I lost Balorgh/an Arena weapon and tri potion sustain. There are 4 soft counters, but good NBs can counter them by stacking movement speed and rolling into Cloak.

Let's say I don't run Chudan and Spell crit potions:



Now I lose Hardened Ward, requiring me to use Pale Order to carry my healing. Burst is also less because no Curse.

By slotting and using Cloak with its class kit, NB gets 3 strong offensive buffs (Major Savagery both bars, Major Berserk, Strike from the Shadows), and 2 strong defensive buffs (Major Resolve and Invisibility). On the other hand, I get Major Savagery on 1 bar, some 3% weapon dmg, and stealth reveal that does nothing for other matchups.

Idk, Cloak sounds a bit too loaded don't you think? The hard counter for Cloak doesn't even provide much outside of Major Savagery on 1 bar and 3% weapon dmg. Even Stampede, a hard counter for Streak, can be used with sets like Rushing Agony and Maelstrom 2h, and it leaves a decent DoT.

DrNukenstein

You could drop ele sus or bound armaments for structured entropy and be better at griefing cloakers at the expense of less damage.

Then you could just spam frags on them while your two hotty dotties keep you topped off.

or you could swap blood craze for structured entropy since they do the same thing but cost a different thing

fred4

The reality is that I fear sorcs the most out of any class on my nightblade. The sorcs, here, have talked about how they find well-played nightblades an issue, or was it a different player who used that term? At any rate, I have an issue with well-played sorcs. Out of all the nightblade counters, Streak and a potion is the most brutal one. It works in duels. It is devastating when the sorc is part of a group, uncloaks you, stuns you, and sets the group on you. Sorcs are the reason why I keep > 22m distance from groups that look competent. If I use Shadow Image judiciously, if I line-of-sight, if I direction-change all the time in cloak, I have a chance. So does the sorc.

I grant you only that, if escape is your highest priority, as it might be to save Tel Var for example, then a nightblade ultimately beats everything else. If a nightblade does manage to disengage, it's final. They truly do. However if you want to do it with cloak alone, you need high sustain and high speed. Being a vampire is not good, as it cuts your regen. You become relatively low damage, because you lack vampire, because of the Swift jewelry, possibly because of Wild Hunt. Due to the amount of light armor you're wearing for the sustain, and the lack of stage 3 vamp, you're also squishy af.

I find the fixation on Cloak in typical discussions extremely frustrating and misguided. The truly dangerous, "well-played" duellers / 1vXers are vampire stage 3 and invest into damage, possibly into some tankiness, but IMO not cloak sustain, at least not the way I do as a truly perma-cloaking magblade. They may dazzle you with Shadow Image. They're just good players who use every tool at their disposal, including line-of sight, cloak, and crouch, but I firmly believe they don't lean on cloak to the extent that, for example, I do. It's just not that meta.

Thus, at the end of the day, my question is whether you think nightblade is truly unbalanced, or whether you simply despise the playstyle. The "cowardice". The opportunistic, scavenging nature of nightblades when you're happily 1vXing otherwise predictable foes. The ganking. The bombing. Or is it the fact that nightblades seek to control the fight? That you have to work to their timetable when you won't or can't detect them? That they may choose to disengage and frequently succeed? That you don't know whether a nightblade is still lingering around? Do you think they owe you an "honest" duel? If you tick these boxes, then you have an issue with the class as a whole.

StaticWave

DrNukenstein wrote: »

You could drop ele sus or bound armaments for structured entropy and be better at griefing cloakers at the expense of less damage.

Then you could just spam frags on them while your two hotty dotties keep you topped off.

or you could swap blood craze for structured entropy since they do the same thing but cost a different thing

Dropping Ele sus = losing out on the best source of damage boost in the game. Moreover, applying status effects with Elesus also give me more chances to proc Crit Surge, which is a core part of Sorc healing. As a brawler Sorc, I can't afford to lose it.

Bound Armaments can be replaced with Curse, but I would not replace either of them for Structured Entropy because Bound Armaments provide better utility and damage, and Curse is just straight up a better damage ability than Entropy. People are already hard to kill in Cyrodiil and BG. I can't afford to lose more damage.

Blood Craze is a better ability than Entropy by a long shot, especially with Charged off hand. Even without Master Dualwield, I am getting 2 DoTs (from the status effect and the actual abiltity), a HoT, a heal on activation (similar to how Savage WW works), and 10% HP debuff on my opponent. It's just too good when compared side by side even without arena weapon.

As I've stated earlier in the thread, I do use a hard counter (detect potion), and 4 soft counters ( Streak, Bound Armaments, Curse, Elesus). It's still hard to kill a stealthy NB because they now have access to a burst heal spammable and can roll dodge cancel with the burst heal while moving at near maximum speed. ZOS has given many tools for gankers to survive, but the tools to counter that aren't catching up imo.

master_vanargand

Cloak should only be broken by AoE direct skills or Detect pots and Detect skills, but in reality, the cloak is messed up due to a bug.
A few years ago, I reported a cloak bug in a video, and the game creator fixed it, but it looks like another game creator who doesn't like Nightblade has brought the bug back again.
It's disgusting.

reazea

master_vanargand wrote: »

Cloak should only be broken by AoE direct skills or Detect pots and Detect skills, but in reality, the cloak is messed up due to a bug.
A few years ago, I reported a cloak bug in a video, and the game creator fixed it, but it looks like another game creator who doesn't like Nightblade has brought the bug back again.
It's disgusting.

Seems like NB's are always the victims.

SaffronCitrusflower

reazea wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Cloak should only be broken by AoE direct skills or Detect pots and Detect skills, but in reality, the cloak is messed up due to a bug.
A few years ago, I reported a cloak bug in a video, and the game creator fixed it, but it looks like another game creator who doesn't like Nightblade has brought the bug back again.
It's disgusting.

Seems like NB's are always the victims.

I see what you did there. And I agree wholeheartedly!

DrNukenstein

StaticWave wrote: »

Dropping Ele sus = losing out on the best source of damage boost in the game. Moreover, applying status effects with Elesus also give me more chances to proc Crit Surge, which is a core part of Sorc healing. As a brawler Sorc, I can't afford to lose it.

Bound Armaments can be replaced with Curse, but I would not replace either of them for Structured Entropy because Bound Armaments provide better utility and damage, and Curse is just straight up a better damage ability than Entropy. People are already hard to kill in Cyrodiil and BG. I can't afford to lose more damage.

Blood Craze is a better ability than Entropy by a long shot, especially with Charged off hand. Even without Master Dualwield, I am getting 2 DoTs (from the status effect and the actual abiltity), a HoT, a heal on activation (similar to how Savage WW works), and 10% HP debuff on my opponent. It's just too good when compared side by side even without arena weapon.

As I've stated earlier in the thread, I do use a hard counter (detect potion), and 4 soft counters ( Streak, Bound Armaments, Curse, Elesus). It's still hard to kill a stealthy NB because they now have access to a burst heal spammable and can roll dodge cancel with the burst heal while moving at near maximum speed. ZOS has given many tools for gankers to survive, but the tools to counter that aren't catching up imo.

So it's not that you don't have bar space, it's just that you view your build as non negotiable. And that's cool. That's why I don't find room for Major breach on my build, a gap closer, or a snare/immobilize which would help me lock down those ratty ranged players that I hunt so ferociously. Those things, while very helpful, cost things that I prefer.

Thing is you're gonna miss out on the most busted stealth counter in the game because you're not trying to slot the most busted stealth counter in the game, even as a replacement for a very similar skill.

StaticWave

DrNukenstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dropping Ele sus = losing out on the best source of damage boost in the game. Moreover, applying status effects with Elesus also give me more chances to proc Crit Surge, which is a core part of Sorc healing. As a brawler Sorc, I can't afford to lose it.

Bound Armaments can be replaced with Curse, but I would not replace either of them for Structured Entropy because Bound Armaments provide better utility and damage, and Curse is just straight up a better damage ability than Entropy. People are already hard to kill in Cyrodiil and BG. I can't afford to lose more damage.

Blood Craze is a better ability than Entropy by a long shot, especially with Charged off hand. Even without Master Dualwield, I am getting 2 DoTs (from the status effect and the actual abiltity), a HoT, a heal on activation (similar to how Savage WW works), and 10% HP debuff on my opponent. It's just too good when compared side by side even without arena weapon.

As I've stated earlier in the thread, I do use a hard counter (detect potion), and 4 soft counters ( Streak, Bound Armaments, Curse, Elesus). It's still hard to kill a stealthy NB because they now have access to a burst heal spammable and can roll dodge cancel with the burst heal while moving at near maximum speed. ZOS has given many tools for gankers to survive, but the tools to counter that aren't catching up imo.

So it's not that you don't have bar space, it's just that you view your build as non negotiable. And that's cool. That's why I don't find room for Major breach on my build, a gap closer, or a snare/immobilize which would help me lock down those ratty ranged players that I hunt so ferociously. Those things, while very helpful, cost things that I prefer.

Thing is you're gonna miss out on the most busted stealth counter in the game because you're not trying to slot the most busted stealth counter in the game, even as a replacement for a very similar skill.

I actually don't have bar space. I'm sure you and many others know the recipe to a successful brawling build on any class, but I'll just say it anyways for those who don't know:

1) You need an instant cast spammable
2) You need at least 2 HoTs
3) You need a decent burst heal spammable
4) You need a few DoTs

Stamsorc currently checks 3 of those conditions. It has an instant cast spammable with Master DW and Blood Craze. It has 2 HoTs with Vigor and Surge. It has several DoTs with Hurricane and Blood Craze. What it currently lacks is a burst heal spammable. Dark Deal is more like a sustain skill than a burst heal because you can be interrupted, so it's not really reliable. You have to use 2H, which means giving up an instant cast spammable and a DoT, or you'd have to use a Shield, which means speccing for max Mag and becoming a magsorc, or max HP, which means losing out on a lot of damage.

Most of the good brawling classes don't have this issue because they have a true burst heal. If I want to fit Structured Entropy, I'd have to drop my Shield. There would be no way for me to protect myself from the execute phase if I get low.

DrNukenstein

StaticWave wrote: »

I actually don't have bar space. I'm sure you and many others know the recipe to a successful brawling build on any class, but I'll just say it anyways for those who don't know:

1) You need an instant cast spammable
2) You need at least 2 HoTs
3) You need a decent burst heal spammable
4) You need a few DoTs

Stamsorc currently checks 3 of those conditions. It has an instant cast spammable with Master DW and Blood Craze. It has 2 HoTs with Vigor and Surge. It has several DoTs with Hurricane and Blood Craze. What it currently lacks is a burst heal spammable. Dark Deal is more like a sustain skill than a burst heal because you can be interrupted, so it's not really reliable. You have to use 2H, which means giving up an instant cast spammable and a DoT, or you'd have to use a Shield, which means speccing for max Mag and becoming a magsorc, or max HP, which means losing out on a lot of damage.

Most of the good brawling classes don't have this issue because they have a true burst heal. If I want to fit Structured Entropy, I'd have to drop my Shield. There would be no way for me to protect myself from the execute phase if I get low.

Except structured entropy literally fits your requirements for a viable build more than BA or curse does. That's what flex slots are for. So you can flex from the broadly useful curse or BA to a build that is more focused on locking down those pesky cloak abusers by using structured entropy instead of one of the former.

Solariken

I have best solution ever!

Casting Shadowy Disguise adds 3 seconds of Detection.

Then, even though half of Cyrodiil/IC population is invisible at any given moment, the hunters will become the hunted.

Theignson

This thread contains some great comments about builds and limitations. One of the fundamental precepts of the game used to be: "you can't have everything in a build".

In other words, if you were high damage, you couldn't be tanky. If you were tanky, you couldn't be high damage. Healers were different than DPS which were different than tanks.

Of course, this rule is long gone.

Every time I get out my Necro, I ask, what am I missing?? Is it really possible the Necro has no abilities that give Major sorc/brutality and no abilities that give major prophecy/savagery??

Then I look at my NB: free major savagery on each bar just for using... CLOAK?? The strongest skill in the game gives a buff to both bars? And a decent skill: power extraction: gives also major brutality...AND minor courage AND minor cowardice?

When I get out my stam sorc, I admire the damage, but the burst healing is non existent. Again I look at my NB: healthy offering is one of the best burst heals in the game.

It just makes no sense to me, the patchwork approach that awards "buffs on both bars" to some classes and "easy access to buffs/heals" to some classes, and not others.

This is what is meant when we say the game has gotten completely out of balance in PvP.

SandandStars

DrNukenstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dropping Ele sus = losing out on the best source of damage boost in the game. Moreover, applying status effects with Elesus also give me more chances to proc Crit Surge, which is a core part of Sorc healing. As a brawler Sorc, I can't afford to lose it.

Bound Armaments can be replaced with Curse, but I would not replace either of them for Structured Entropy because Bound Armaments provide better utility and damage, and Curse is just straight up a better damage ability than Entropy. People are already hard to kill in Cyrodiil and BG. I can't afford to lose more damage.

Blood Craze is a better ability than Entropy by a long shot, especially with Charged off hand. Even without Master Dualwield, I am getting 2 DoTs (from the status effect and the actual abiltity), a HoT, a heal on activation (similar to how Savage WW works), and 10% HP debuff on my opponent. It's just too good when compared side by side even without arena weapon.

As I've stated earlier in the thread, I do use a hard counter (detect potion), and 4 soft counters ( Streak, Bound Armaments, Curse, Elesus). It's still hard to kill a stealthy NB because they now have access to a burst heal spammable and can roll dodge cancel with the burst heal while moving at near maximum speed. ZOS has given many tools for gankers to survive, but the tools to counter that aren't catching up imo.

So it's not that you don't have bar space, it's just that you view your build as non negotiable. And that's cool. That's why I don't find room for Major breach on my build, a gap closer, or a snare/immobilize which would help me lock down those ratty ranged players that I hunt so ferociously. Those things, while very helpful, cost things that I prefer.

Thing is you're gonna miss out on the most busted stealth counter in the game because you're not trying to slot the most busted stealth counter in the game, even as a replacement for a very similar skill.

What class are you playing that you don’t need major breach to do effective damage?

Galeriano

DrNukenstein wrote: »

You could drop ele sus or bound armaments for structured entropy and be better at griefing cloakers at the expense of less damage.

Then you could just spam frags on them while your two hotty dotties keep you topped off.

or you could swap blood craze for structured entropy since they do the same thing but cost a different thing

So You would loose lots of dmg against everyone just to reveal nightblades more often which in reality wont really equall to killing them because You dropped lots of dmg. Switching any of mentioned abilities to structured entropy is a noticable loss of dmg pressure.

As for frag spam You wouldn't be able to do it effectively because structured antropy procs once every 2 seconds so nightblade could still use cloak and interrupt frag casts.Any semi decent nightblade really don't give a damm about single structured entropy on him.

Galeriano

SandandStars wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dropping Ele sus = losing out on the best source of damage boost in the game. Moreover, applying status effects with Elesus also give me more chances to proc Crit Surge, which is a core part of Sorc healing. As a brawler Sorc, I can't afford to lose it.

Bound Armaments can be replaced with Curse, but I would not replace either of them for Structured Entropy because Bound Armaments provide better utility and damage, and Curse is just straight up a better damage ability than Entropy. People are already hard to kill in Cyrodiil and BG. I can't afford to lose more damage.

Blood Craze is a better ability than Entropy by a long shot, especially with Charged off hand. Even without Master Dualwield, I am getting 2 DoTs (from the status effect and the actual abiltity), a HoT, a heal on activation (similar to how Savage WW works), and 10% HP debuff on my opponent. It's just too good when compared side by side even without arena weapon.

As I've stated earlier in the thread, I do use a hard counter (detect potion), and 4 soft counters ( Streak, Bound Armaments, Curse, Elesus). It's still hard to kill a stealthy NB because they now have access to a burst heal spammable and can roll dodge cancel with the burst heal while moving at near maximum speed. ZOS has given many tools for gankers to survive, but the tools to counter that aren't catching up imo.

So it's not that you don't have bar space, it's just that you view your build as non negotiable. And that's cool. That's why I don't find room for Major breach on my build, a gap closer, or a snare/immobilize which would help me lock down those ratty ranged players that I hunt so ferociously. Those things, while very helpful, cost things that I prefer.

Thing is you're gonna miss out on the most busted stealth counter in the game because you're not trying to slot the most busted stealth counter in the game, even as a replacement for a very similar skill.

What class are you playing that you don’t need major breach to do effective damage?

I don't know what he is playing but the best setup currently that does described thing is nb especially archer nb. Lots of damage without breach plus due to nature of the setup the user is usually attacking someone already attacked by others that applied breach on him.

Turtle_Bot

DrNukenstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I actually don't have bar space. I'm sure you and many others know the recipe to a successful brawling build on any class, but I'll just say it anyways for those who don't know:

1) You need an instant cast spammable
2) You need at least 2 HoTs
3) You need a decent burst heal spammable
4) You need a few DoTs

Stamsorc currently checks 3 of those conditions. It has an instant cast spammable with Master DW and Blood Craze. It has 2 HoTs with Vigor and Surge. It has several DoTs with Hurricane and Blood Craze. What it currently lacks is a burst heal spammable. Dark Deal is more like a sustain skill than a burst heal because you can be interrupted, so it's not really reliable. You have to use 2H, which means giving up an instant cast spammable and a DoT, or you'd have to use a Shield, which means speccing for max Mag and becoming a magsorc, or max HP, which means losing out on a lot of damage.

Most of the good brawling classes don't have this issue because they have a true burst heal. If I want to fit Structured Entropy, I'd have to drop my Shield. There would be no way for me to protect myself from the execute phase if I get low.

Except structured entropy literally fits your requirements for a viable build more than BA or curse does. That's what flex slots are for. So you can flex from the broadly useful curse or BA to a build that is more focused on locking down those pesky cloak abusers by using structured entropy instead of one of the former.

As static has already said, curse (or frags) is already first dropped if sorc wants to slot a monster set that's not chudan because running around without major resolve is simply not an option for sorcerer with how bad its defensive options are outside of streak and curse is already sort of doing what entropy does, while providing other benefits that apply to more than just cloak. Sorcerer would also be slotting camo hunter/inner light first over entropy because major prophecy is required to give crit surge any semblance of reliability as a HoT, something other classes are not forced to do for their HoTs.

The 2 abilities you say are "flex spots" are not actually flex spots on sorcerer because they give more than just damage.

Dropping BA = the following losses:
8% max health
1 delayed burst ability
8% max stamina
300 stamina return when stacks expire or cast
20% health/stam recovery

Dropping Curse does the following:
1 delayed burst ability, emphasis on burst
300 magicka return on end
20% health/stamina recovery

There are important passives that grant both offensive and defensive effects, that depend on having either of those 2 abilities slotted (especially bound armaments). Sorc is already struggling defensively outside of streak/max health stacking, that losing even more overall defense just for the ability to potentially better soft counter specifically cloak only, is not something that can be done on the class with its lack of bar space for this type of situational utility.

If sorc still had its 3rd bar on overload we wouldn't be having this discussion over what to drop for entropy, but that option was deleted years ago and ZOS still hasn't compensated sorc for that complete overnerf of the class and ZOS still seems to refuse to even acknowledge just how massive of a negative impact that one change had on the class and why it has caused so many re-occurring pain points to pop up for the class ever since that change was made.

Now, what would I change for sorc that could potentially give sorc the flexibility to slot entropy?

- Give lightning form/morphs major prophecy/savagery on cast (this removes the need to slot camo/magelight and a reason to run them over Chudan + a better ability). This is the most important change.
- Give haunting curse major breach while applied to a target (this removes the need to slot ele sus and prey already has its unique debuff for pets, so prey doesn't need breach)

What these 2 changes accomplish? By giving sorc easier access to these 2 basic/standard effects, it allows for sorc to have 1 flex spot that it can choose to slot an ability to provide a particular utility effect for a given situation.
The standard bar in PvP would look something like the following (blood craze is whatever weapon/world spammable desired):



And the blank slot would fill as follows:
- Need more defense? Slot sword and shield + defensive posture.
- Need temp max health for HoTs to tick? Slot ward.
- Need more speed/snare immunity? Slot RaT.
- Need to soft counter cloak better? Slot entropy.
- Need more sustain? Slot ele drain (move vigor or streak to back bar or run frost staff back bar).
- Need an execute? Slot fury or a weapon execute (move vigor or streak to back bar).
- Need more healing? Slot resto back bar.

Sorc as a class and not just as a proc carrier would actually be in a good spot with these 2 small changes.

It still requires filling in some missing areas (healing and instant spammable), will still lack in AoE, and it still must pick and choose what it wants to slot into that singular utility flex slot or give up something else to get multiple of the above outlined utility options, but it would go a long way to helping reduce sorc's biggest issue, being the complete lack of bar space to slot any situational utility ability at all.

IZZEFlameLash

Galeriano wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dropping Ele sus = losing out on the best source of damage boost in the game. Moreover, applying status effects with Elesus also give me more chances to proc Crit Surge, which is a core part of Sorc healing. As a brawler Sorc, I can't afford to lose it.

Bound Armaments can be replaced with Curse, but I would not replace either of them for Structured Entropy because Bound Armaments provide better utility and damage, and Curse is just straight up a better damage ability than Entropy. People are already hard to kill in Cyrodiil and BG. I can't afford to lose more damage.

Blood Craze is a better ability than Entropy by a long shot, especially with Charged off hand. Even without Master Dualwield, I am getting 2 DoTs (from the status effect and the actual abiltity), a HoT, a heal on activation (similar to how Savage WW works), and 10% HP debuff on my opponent. It's just too good when compared side by side even without arena weapon.

As I've stated earlier in the thread, I do use a hard counter (detect potion), and 4 soft counters ( Streak, Bound Armaments, Curse, Elesus). It's still hard to kill a stealthy NB because they now have access to a burst heal spammable and can roll dodge cancel with the burst heal while moving at near maximum speed. ZOS has given many tools for gankers to survive, but the tools to counter that aren't catching up imo.

So it's not that you don't have bar space, it's just that you view your build as non negotiable. And that's cool. That's why I don't find room for Major breach on my build, a gap closer, or a snare/immobilize which would help me lock down those ratty ranged players that I hunt so ferociously. Those things, while very helpful, cost things that I prefer.

Thing is you're gonna miss out on the most busted stealth counter in the game because you're not trying to slot the most busted stealth counter in the game, even as a replacement for a very similar skill.

What class are you playing that you don’t need major breach to do effective damage?

I don't know what he is playing but the best setup currently that does described thing is nb especially archer nb. Lots of damage without breach plus due to nature of the setup the user is usually attacking someone already attacked by others that applied breach on him.

And... the guy 'happens to be playing' that very archer nb setup. What coincidence...

Elendir2am

SandandStars wrote: »

The guild detect skills do not, in fact, “work better than people give them credit for.”

They state that you cannot recloak for 5 seconds after being revealed. Everyone knows this is not true. You can immediately recloak after being revealed by Inner Light.

80% of gankers, I reveal by flare, don't get invisible for some time. 20% get invisible immediately and after second flare again.
It is question, if detection skills are broken, or some exploit are in play.

Although I get very good at predicting gankers movement and throwing flare at that place. Talons are far more efective in detection of gankers than flare.
It is because all detection skills are very clumsy in use.

DrNukenstein

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

And... the guy 'happens to be playing' that very archer nb setup. What coincidence...

I don't play archer, that's for degenerates.

I use a 4 proc build and they all fire with one heavy attack. Technically any class could run it, DK in particular would get more damage out of it.

I run 10k pen+minor breach. Major Breach on top of that really isn't that much extra damage.

Vaqual

DrNukenstein wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

And... the guy 'happens to be playing' that very archer nb setup. What coincidence...

I don't play archer, that's for degenerates.

I use a 4 proc build and they all fire with one heavy attack. Technically any class could run it, DK in particular would get more damage out of it.

I run 10k pen with minor breach. Major Breach on top of that really isn't that much extra damage.

Doc they built a strawman for you, you have to let it burn.