Consequences of Hybridization

Tyrant_Tim

Billium813 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

I believe you kind of missed the point that for most players(not just hardcore ones), they want to do their best to be strong. Hybridization did not actually open up options for character customization. It opened up role play options but that is it. If you want to keep improving your character there are even less paths forward now. The overall build progression for even casuals was cut almost in half whether you like it or not. People running around with iceheart/julianos/.. in trials and vet dungeons are not the actual norm. Even casual players check out whats best every now and then. Hybridization shrunk what was considered meta by orders of magnitude.. Not increase it. For every skill like Vigor that can be used by multiple character types there were 2-3 abilities that will never get used now.

The real question is why do some people think a copy-pasted "meta"-build they don't understand will increase their enjoyment of the game.

I agree with everything you said, but googling "eso warden magicka" is always 1000x easier then understanding the nuances of ESO gameplay, evaluating all the available sets, and coming up with a unique build that is both fun and playable.

There’s the disconnect.

Most players don’t have access to PTS, they don’t have a testing ground, and at a high level, gold gear makes a huge difference.

Oftentimes players go out of their way to fully farm out two functional sets that sound like they would work great together.

IE; your MagDen example, let’s use sets like Frostbite and Ysgrammor, one increases frost damage incrementally, another makes all frost damage skills do 400 more.

Warden is the only class in the game with multiple Frost damage skills, so one would assume you can make a Frost mage with the class, and through that line of thinking you would assume those two sets would be viable together on that class and begin to spend hours stickerbooking them, spend hours farming transmutes, and more hours grinding for mats, just for the chance to try an idea you have.

Now you’re ready, you want to jump into PvP and your first encounter is a Nightblade on a meta crit build, and you get smacked by a 25k Assassin’s Will and lose 83.333% of your health bar from one skill that’s not even an ultimate causing you to immediately question the legitimacy of your build, and therefore your time spent.

Why would new players not want to avoid that?

Billium813

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

I believe you kind of missed the point that for most players(not just hardcore ones), they want to do their best to be strong. Hybridization did not actually open up options for character customization. It opened up role play options but that is it. If you want to keep improving your character there are even less paths forward now. The overall build progression for even casuals was cut almost in half whether you like it or not. People running around with iceheart/julianos/.. in trials and vet dungeons are not the actual norm. Even casual players check out whats best every now and then. Hybridization shrunk what was considered meta by orders of magnitude.. Not increase it. For every skill like Vigor that can be used by multiple character types there were 2-3 abilities that will never get used now.

The real question is why do some people think a copy-pasted "meta"-build they don't understand will increase their enjoyment of the game.

I agree with everything you said, but googling "eso warden magicka" is always 1000x easier then understanding the nuances of ESO gameplay, evaluating all the available sets, and coming up with a unique build that is both fun and playable.

Now you’re ready, you want to jump into PvP and your first encounter is a Nightblade on a meta crit build, and you get smacked by a 25k Assassin’s Will and lose 83.333% of your health bar from one skill that’s not even an ultimate causing you to immediately question the legitimacy of your build, and therefore your time spent.

Why would new players not want to avoid that?

Yep, that about sums it up; especially in PvP. I would say that PvE has more wiggle room, in terms of off meta and time to figure things out, as long as you aren't trying to score push, but PvP is way more daunting for players to figure out. You make a build, you think its good, you take it into Cyrodiil and get curb stomped by some meta chad. You curse PvP and go look for your own meta set that won't apparently be made of tissue paper.

The same thing can happen in PvE if you are trying to compare DPS numbers, or humping a dummy and asking players what you "should" be DPSing. Stop focusing on Vet HM Trial raid group builds unless that's what you want to play. But don't worry about it cause that content isn't for everyone or necessary in the first place! IMO, the trick is to know that you are adequate enough and stop worrying. Are the mobs dying in a reasonable time? Is anyone dying? Just relax, turn off the DPS meter, and focus on the mechanics.

Tyrant_Tim

When the meta is so polarizing, as it is now, other builds don’t have room to exist.

Here is how it pertains to each PvP area of the game…

Cyrodiil and Imperial City’s build diversity was killed by ball groups all stacking heals in Snowtreaders while wearing any of the new toxic sets designed to torture solo or small scale players, even if Master’s/Vateshran were to be nerfed and there were a multitude of different builds readily available, it wouldn’t matter. One of these groups will steam roll you regardless of what you’re wearing unless you’re a tank.

Battlegrounds had a chance but its build diversity was killed by forced skill-based matchmaking meaning you will ALWAYS play the best players using the best builds if you’re playing well, and if you’re trying to bring friends that are new to the game along, don’t expect them to show up tomorrow.

Dueling was all we had left for content where we could shine with unique builds but now it’s all hybridized or more pointedly, ruined by the current meta of Master’s Vateshran only possible through that very change.

Braffin

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

I believe you kind of missed the point that for most players(not just hardcore ones), they want to do their best to be strong. Hybridization did not actually open up options for character customization. It opened up role play options but that is it. If you want to keep improving your character there are even less paths forward now. The overall build progression for even casuals was cut almost in half whether you like it or not. People running around with iceheart/julianos/.. in trials and vet dungeons are not the actual norm. Even casual players check out whats best every now and then. Hybridization shrunk what was considered meta by orders of magnitude.. Not increase it. For every skill like Vigor that can be used by multiple character types there were 2-3 abilities that will never get used now.

The real question is why do some people think a copy-pasted "meta"-build they don't understand will increase their enjoyment of the game.

I agree with everything you said, but googling "eso warden magicka" is always 1000x easier then understanding the nuances of ESO gameplay, evaluating all the available sets, and coming up with a unique build that is both fun and playable.

There’s the disconnect.

Most players don’t have access to PTS, they don’t have a testing ground, and at a high level, gold gear makes a huge difference.

Oftentimes players go out of their way to fully farm out two functional sets that sound like they would work great together.

While it's true that testing builds on live server can be somewhat pricey (purple equipment with golden weapons is sufficient to do so tho) and console players don't have access to PTS (I won't discuss assumed majorities here), there are various possibilities to do some research regarding builds before field testing them.

To name just a few:
https://eso-hub.com/en/guides
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

Of course it's not as easy or convenient as copy/pasting the most recent build of one's favorite streamer. But it definitely earns better results.

I have no issues with streamers sharing some builds tho. But they don't substitute proper knowledge of the game's mechanics of course.

Your example with warden is a nice one tho: If somebody is wondering about the lack of defense provided by a setup almost completely (or even entirely) consisting of light armor, the error is solely on their end.

I agree tho, that too much people are running "meta" builds atm. That's the result of handing out the respective gear like candy, for example by handing out arena weapons in normal mode. Now especially the PvP-community is paying the dues of this wrong decision, because it was expectable, that everyone would use them.

Tyrant_Tim

Billium813 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

I believe you kind of missed the point that for most players(not just hardcore ones), they want to do their best to be strong. Hybridization did not actually open up options for character customization. It opened up role play options but that is it. If you want to keep improving your character there are even less paths forward now. The overall build progression for even casuals was cut almost in half whether you like it or not. People running around with iceheart/julianos/.. in trials and vet dungeons are not the actual norm. Even casual players check out whats best every now and then. Hybridization shrunk what was considered meta by orders of magnitude.. Not increase it. For every skill like Vigor that can be used by multiple character types there were 2-3 abilities that will never get used now.

The real question is why do some people think a copy-pasted "meta"-build they don't understand will increase their enjoyment of the game.

I agree with everything you said, but googling "eso warden magicka" is always 1000x easier then understanding the nuances of ESO gameplay, evaluating all the available sets, and coming up with a unique build that is both fun and playable.

Now you’re ready, you want to jump into PvP and your first encounter is a Nightblade on a meta crit build, and you get smacked by a 25k Assassin’s Will and lose 83.333% of your health bar from one skill that’s not even an ultimate causing you to immediately question the legitimacy of your build, and therefore your time spent.

Why would new players not want to avoid that?

Yep, that about sums it up; especially in PvP. I would say that PvE has more wiggle room, in terms of off meta and time to figure things out, as long as you aren't trying to score push...

Right, and this is because in PvE, you’re not forced into an active competition, unless you’re in a group struggling to progress through harder content where you might need to make up for another’s deficit.

That’s where meta comes in for PvE, if your group is filled with top tier players, you might be able to get away from certain combinations, but when you’re spending hours trying to get something done every other day for weeks, it makes sense to reduce the time it takes to clear that content, which having players in meta sets like ZenKosh, EC, or MK/Spaulder helps.

DrNukenstein

I think hybridization killed build diversity if you believe the purpose of it is to cram as many major and minor effects into your build through skills, and stat or feature density through gear choices.

If that's the case then yes, there are only like 3 builds and yes certain classes are better vehicles for those builds. But I don't play that way, and I feel like one of the biggest beneficiaries of hybridization in the community.

For me the big power of hybridization is you can manipulate your sustain for situationally infinite sustain with next to no investment in sustain, and make equipment choices that support what you do instead of what is designed to work for your class. There are so many ways to skin that cat, if you don't tunnel on the buff-dense, stat-dense meta.

I run a full on mag build that uses stam skills for damage, and dw heavies for sustain. I get the full mag trick bag, a strong bias against light armor targets (those guys that really need to die when you see them), and virtually infinite sustain as long as I have space to do those heavy attacks (which I do unless I made what can be considered a mistake).

It doesn't have outcome deciding features like "minor courage" or "Major Evasion", but it does flow and when it comes time do the damage and get away it does that quite well and with a high uptime due to a spend/sustain loop that enables the play style without itemizing for sustain.

Like damn, I've really been heavy+spammabling people all weekend on a build I've never seen done before. Then I had another idea and did the most damage I've ever done to anyone in a video game. Find your cheese, people. There's a whole charcuterie board of b.s. out there past the big 3 builds everyone talks about.

Tyrant_Tim

Braffin wrote: »

I agree tho, that too much people are running "meta" builds atm. That's the result of handing out the respective gear like candy, for example by handing out arena weapons in normal mode. Now especially the PvP-community is paying the dues of this wrong decision, because it was expectable, that everyone would use them.

You hit on the point pretty well with this one. If the best gear in the game wasn’t extremely easy to obtain, everyone wouldn’t be using it, but the best sets are either crafted, or can be purchased instead of earned.

Arena weapons used to be rare when you had to clear veteran content, and when you didn’t have items like the Pale Order or Oakensoul rings trivializing them.

Unfortunately the damage has already been done, and now both of the top arena weapons will need to be re-adjusted similar to the vMA two-hander, by adding a scale with weapon and spell damage.

Tyrant_Tim

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I think hybridization killed build diversity if you believe the purpose of it is to cram as many major and minor effects into your build through skills, and stat or feature density through gear choices.

If that's the case then yes, there are only like 3 builds and yes certain classes are better vehicles for those builds…

… Like damn, I've really been heavy+spammabling people all weekend on a build I've never seen done before. Then I had another idea and did the most damage I've ever done to anyone in a video game. Find your cheese, people. There's a whole charcuterie board of b.s. out there past the big 3 builds everyone talks about.

I’m glad you’re having fun on Nightblade.

Perhaps when the arena weapons are handled we’ll start to see more diversity, but I doubt it.

Unlike Nightblade, other classes have definitive morph choices and specific skills that always land on your bar, for example, not to make this a Nightblade versus Templar argument, but when playing Templar, you’re forced into all defensive skills on your backbar with only one flex spot…


In this bar, you would swap Quick Cloak for either Elemental Susceptibility or Race Against Time.

That being said, I wish everyone could have the freedom of choice that Nightblade has because of Hybridization, because it’s the only class not being pigeonholed into the Master’s Vateshran combo, even Dragonknight is better with those procs than without.

DrNukenstein

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I’m glad you’re having fun on Nightblade.

Perhaps when the arena weapons are handled we’ll start to see more diversity, but I doubt it.

Unlike Nightblade, other classes have definitive morph choices and specific skills that always land on your bar, for example, not to make this a Nightblade versus Templar argument, but when playing Templar, you’re forced into all defensive skills on your backbar with only one flex spot…


In this bar, you would swap Quick Cloak for either Elemental Susceptibility or Race Against Time.

That being said, I wish everyone could have the freedom of choice that Nightblade has because of Hybridization, because it’s the only class not being pigeonholed into the Master’s Vateshran combo, even Dragonknight is better with those procs than without.

I don't have a single flex spot because I'm pathologically obsessed with having the same amount of health mag and stam on both bars. I too have a back bar composed of all defensive skills, and have to make decisions like meaningful damage boost with camo hunter for a significantly higher one shot margin or an execute. The difference is, I pick my skills for what best fits my sustain patterns and pick my sets based on what I want to do (BLOW NERDS UP!) as opposed to having the most dense build possible. And the point is, you can design a build in that way and have an excellent performance even in the presence of a lobby sticking to the famous builds. Hybridization drew attention to some very powerful general use builds, but there are even more powerful specific builds that work best for specific classes and even specific players still out there. How many builds can a builder build if a builder could build builds.

For example, no one talks about infused master staff. But what would you do with a 1000 spell damage button? What if that 10000 spell damage button could also be CC? What if that 100000 spell damage button was a dot that also applies a short+dense dot that could be comboed with a heavy attack that applies it's own powerful dot? What if each of those dots that you apply with that combo benefited from that 1000000 damage and could be further boosted by one (or two) of several sets that make dots hurt a lot. It's not meta, but I've seen it work very well. That's like just one awesome thing that's out there that no one bothers to play around with because they're too focused on the stuff that Youtube says works.

StarOfElyon

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

https://youtu.be/H4Uml_2GqB4?si=A2eilKK3ztWDcnt6

Over the last year I’ve been looking for a video that summarizes exactly what the problems with Hybridization are and as of today I’ve found it.

For me hybridization went too far when skills scaled with the highest damage stat. There was no more sacrifice. That killed the flavor of hybrids.

Elyu

Same sentiment I and many others have been expressing for a while now.

Will link 2 threads below that agree and expand upon the video:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/642544/
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8009087

pelle412

I prefer how the game worked before hybridization. I could play "Conan the Barbarian" using a greatsword and a big stamina pool. Now, I can still do that but Conan does better if he also starts casting spells. Similarly, Merlin the wizard, spell-caster extraordinaire now does better if he starts whacking people with swords.

Neatle

Would you prefer the game to further unbalance by restricting access to certain builds only for certain classes?
back then meta slaves would swap the whole class to eventually play the meta sets.. what is the objective here? is that what you call diversity? i'd call that an illusion

Diversity still seems prevalent, as the choice remains, unlike before, individuals can opt for various options and bring in a fully stamina-oriented setup if they want to, hybridization still gives you the possibility to do it but since you have access to a greater variety of sets and abilities to optimize your character you will be less powerful if you choose not to
i appreciate having access to a burst heal on stamina classes like templar or even cleanse.. thanks to hybridization.

are you sure diversity is when players were forced to use the same things because they couldn't even slot a magicka ability since it didn't even scale on anything because they were playing a stamina character? i believe what you hear by "diversity" is: restricting player's freedom to compel them to use a particular type of build? then yeah, your "diversity" would just make the game even worse (balance-wise at least) and that's the last thing you'd want

The foremost issue persisting is and has always been balance..
This is why the majority of players tends towards identical setups and even then, i find myself using different morph and sets when i swap from stamina to magicka

the idea behind hybridization is noble, blame the lack of balance in the meta, not hybridization for the lack of diversity

Hottytotz

Neatle wrote: »

Would you prefer the game to further unbalance by restricting access to certain builds only for certain classes?
back then meta slaves would swap the whole class to eventually play the meta sets.. what is the objective here? is that what you call diversity? i'd call that an illusion

Diversity still seems prevalent, as the choice remains, unlike before, individuals can opt for various options and bring in a fully stamina-oriented setup if they want to, hybridization still gives you the possibility to do it but since you have access to a greater variety of sets and abilities to optimize your character you will be less powerful if you choose not to
i appreciate having access to a burst heal on stamina classes like templar or even cleanse.. thanks to hybridization.

are you sure diversity is when players were forced to use the same things because they couldn't even slot a magicka ability since it didn't even scale on anything because they were playing a stamina character? i believe what you hear by "diversity" is: restricting player's freedom to compel them to use a particular type of build? then yeah, your "diversity" would just make the game even worse (balance-wise at least) and that's the last thing you'd want

The foremost issue persisting is and has always been balance..
This is why the majority of players tends towards identical setups and even then, i find myself using different morph and sets when i swap from stamina to magicka

the idea behind hybridization is noble, blame the lack of balance in the meta, not hybridization for the lack of diversity

The road to hell is paved with good/noble intentions... ETC... etc.. I will admit I completely agreed with the hybrid changes at first because they just seemed like a win across the board! You either dont play this game or understand any part of the content in the game outside of landscape and normal dungeons if you truly believe hybridization was a benefit and promoted diversity. On paper it was suppost to but we know the facts now that it actually crushed choice even more. So many skills never get used now because why would you take a skill that does the same or very similar in your thematic resource pool over somthing that is just straight up better? And there will always be a better...

You also blame their inability to balance hybrid and thats why it doesnt work. In the end of the day most MMOs are not balanced. We can only judge it for what it is, not what it should have been on paper. The Utopia of true balanced hybrid play might not even be possible. The last few years have shown that to be true and that despite the best intentions hybrid has hurt the game overall for anyone trying to improve on their character. As anyone even casuals do in RPGs...

OBJnoob

I'm going to say something weird.

I don't even really care that the game isn't balanced. I really don't. Few games are. I've written at length about this before so I'll try to keep it short this time.

Some skills should be better than others. Some classes should be better than others. Some gear should be better than others. Why? Because at LEAST half the fun in games like this is customizing your own character and trying to find what works. It's called theorycrafting, and it's also the main driving force behind buying DLCs, redoing content, having multiple characters, and really just playing in general.

The problem isn't that the game is unbalanced. The problem is how long we have to endure through the same meta. How long has it been for this one? One year? Two?

It's time to change. Time for Necro or Sorc to be king. Time for arena weapons to suck. Time for a -gasp- stat based meta. Time for a low TTK. Time for... Anything else. Well past time, actually.

Amottica

Braffin wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

I believe you kind of missed the point that for most players(not just hardcore ones), they want to do their best to be strong. Hybridization did not actually open up options for character customization. It opened up role play options but that is it. If you want to keep improving your character there are even less paths forward now. The overall build progression for even casuals was cut almost in half whether you like it or not. People running around with iceheart/julianos/.. in trials and vet dungeons are not the actual norm. Even casual players check out whats best every now and then. Hybridization shrunk what was considered meta by orders of magnitude.. Not increase it. For every skill like Vigor that can be used by multiple character types there were 2-3 abilities that will never get used now.

If someone decides to chase meta, then of course there aren't many choices but exactly one (maybe it's not that extreme in PvP). That's the very nature of this term and no amount of wishful thinking will ever change that.

If we take a more reasonable approach and ask for viable builds which are sufficient to successfully complete a specific task, hybridization was quite a step onwards.

Sure, there are issues with hybridization (it's unfinished and some skills are in dire need of rework to make them useful), but it's definitely not the cause of a narrowed meta.

The real question is why do some people think a copy-pasted "meta"-build they don't understand will increase their enjoyment of the game.

You bring up a good point.

In games that have very restrictive builds, there still comes one rotation that beats them all. With a great many build options ESO has we still face the same issue and that is one build will still top everything else.

The reason, MMORPGs are based on math.

What makes the greatest difference in how well any build performs is the player. One player can use their off-meta build and outperform someone else using the meta build just because they can execute the rotation better.

While homogenization and hybridization have made combat builds a little less interesting, we still have just as many skills to choose from as we did before.

Vaqual

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm going to say something weird.

I don't even really care that the game isn't balanced. I really don't. Few games are. I've written at length about this before so I'll try to keep it short this time.

Some skills should be better than others. Some classes should be better than others. Some gear should be better than others. Why? Because at LEAST half the fun in games like this is customizing your own character and trying to find what works. It's called theorycrafting, and it's also the main driving force behind buying DLCs, redoing content, having multiple characters, and really just playing in general.

The problem isn't that the game is unbalanced. The problem is how long we have to endure through the same meta. How long has it been for this one? One year? Two?

It's time to change. Time for Necro or Sorc to be king. Time for arena weapons to suck. Time for a -gasp- stat based meta. Time for a low TTK. Time for... Anything else. Well past time, actually.

Even though I agree, it is time they do something, I don't think that deliberately aiming for a change in the class performance hierarchy is a reasonable way of approaching this. Ideally all changes should make sense and aim to treat all classes fairly. Nobody should have to read the patch notes and know that PvP is going to be trash for at least 6 months with their class just so that another class can have their 5 minutes in the spotlight. There is a plethora of constructive criticism on this forum and if the devs would actually communicate their vision and reasoning for things, then I am sure good consensus solutions could be implemented.
Erratic and severe changes may have a bigger novelty factor, but it can be tiresome when builds get completely invalidated and small tweaks would have been enough. Not implying that you are asking for that, I just don't want them to think we want the ol' Sweeping back.

BXR_Lonestar

Most players don’t have access to PTS, they don’t have a testing ground, and at a high level, gold gear makes a huge difference.

I actually think you are way overstating the value of gold armor. There are some key pieces that you want to be gold, namely your weapons, but outside of that, you can do high DPS in all purple or even a mix of purple and blue gear. The difference in performance from having everything golded out vs. everything purple (assuming gold weapons in both cases) is really marginal. Most of my characters are wearing all purple armor, but with gold weapons. I do gold out heavy chest pieces/legs, Helmet (i.e., the big armor pieces) for PVP builds where I want to try to have as much armor/survivability as I can, but you can easily get by with just purple gear on the body/jewelry.

And purple crafting mats are readily available and easy to earn if you are doing veteran content. Even Jewelry is not too bad right now. If your alliance is winning in Cyrodil, then just get all your characters to Tier 3 and each character will get 5 purple jewelry pieces to decon.

Tyrant_Tim

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Most players don’t have access to PTS, they don’t have a testing ground, and at a high level, gold gear makes a huge difference.

I actually think you are way overstating the value of gold armor. There are some key pieces that you want to be gold, namely your weapons, but outside of that, you can do high DPS in all purple or even a mix of purple and blue gear.

I’m definitely not.

It is extremely naive to assume that an extra 5% reduced Roll Dodge cost or 5% increased Mundus Stone effect is anything but adding the value of another piece of equipment entirely, not even taking into consideration the armor difference between gold medium and heavy big pieces.

I mean let’s take a look at a Reinforced Heavy Chest…


These have been just a few examples, but those values continue to add up together to become very clear for anyone who isn’t coping with the horrible inflation on PC/NA, just how much of an impact improving your gear has, and in PvP, where you’re in constant competition with other players, unlike PvE, where there is a baseline amount of damage or mitigation/health you need for each form of content you’re running.

You either build as best as possible for what you’re trying to accomplish or you lose, but do continue to wear purple, and encourage others to do so aswell, I enjoy going 40-0 in Battlegrounds with my gold gear equipped, as it always helps me rack up kills when there are people in the lobby that don’t take gear serious in a gear-based game.

Zama666

I am ready to go back to nobridization.

Stam is stam
Mag is mag
But like to see something for health - better healing, shielding

Wouldn't be exciting to get stabbed by an NB and get healed?! ok, maybe I did not think that thru.