Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak

DrNukenstein

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

stop the cap

It's true. The brawlers aren't using cloak, and if they are they aren't brawling as good.

warm_blanket

Cloak is a red herring.

The magblade brawlers currently dominating don't rely on cloak to survive - they're spamming healthy offering.

The only builds forced to spam cloak are the bow plinkers, gankers, and bombers, none of which are threatening in the current meta.

The point is a ramping cost on cloak would affect the super apex meta nb build the least. It's not a bad idea on its own but wouldn't move the bar on nb class power.

You'll want to consider a much stronger self dot effect on the nb burst heal instead. For the amount you can heal it's a joke.

IZZEFlameLash

warm_blanket wrote: »

Cloak is a red herring.

The magblade brawlers currently dominating don't rely on cloak to survive - they're spamming healthy offering.

The only builds forced to spam cloak are the bow plinkers, gankers, and bombers, none of which are threatening in the current meta.

The point is a ramping cost on cloak would affect the super apex meta nb build the least. It's not a bad idea on its own but wouldn't move the bar on nb class power.

You'll want to consider a much stronger self dot effect on the nb burst heal instead. For the amount you can heal it's a joke.

This is true. Current NB problem is that it has the highest burst damage and heal at the same time. If other classes were to build like NB, they'd have to forego sustain and pray they can kill enemies fast enough before they run out of juice. It used to be that NB's best defense was Cloak and HoT. Now, it is just face tank people then Cloak only if pressure is high, a.k.a another NB entered the scene and he ain't friend.

Alchimiste1

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

stop the cap

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

stop the cap

It's true. The brawlers aren't using cloak, and if they are they aren't brawling as good.

strange because every brawler nb I know has invis cloak slotted now

DrNukenstein

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

strange because every brawler nb I know has invis cloak slotted now

And none of them are the big bad in their BG

Tyrant_Tim

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

stop the cap

They aren’t lying.

How could they be lying when in order to “see” a cloak brawler have an outlier performance, you would need to be able to see them…

FoJul

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

stop the cap

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

stop the cap

It's true. The brawlers aren't using cloak, and if they are they aren't brawling as good.

strange because every brawler nb I know has invis cloak slotted now

Almost every nightblade in general is slotting cloak (unless you have Top G attitude and think that you don't need it cause your better for whatever reason).

Every brawler for the history of ESO had always slotted camo hunter...Easiest boost in damage. Now that Crit chance from camo hunter is applied to stealth now...but you can negate any hit you possible want. You can negate pretty much everything with cloak if you know what your doing. So a boost in damage and a boost in survivability.

Let's not forget to mention that if your vamp 3, and you have slotted concealed (Which 99% of all nightblades slot concealed) you basically are getting Sea Serpent's buff but without the snare...OP as heck...when you can stealth, negate all damage, hit a 18k health offering...turn around and shoot a 18k bow with a 13k incap/soul tether and then cloak again.

There's no reason not to slot cloak. That simple. There is NO penalty for slotting it either.

StaticWave

FoJul wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

stop the cap

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

stop the cap

It's true. The brawlers aren't using cloak, and if they are they aren't brawling as good.

strange because every brawler nb I know has invis cloak slotted now

Almost every nightblade in general is slotting cloak (unless you have Top G attitude and think that you don't need it cause your better for whatever reason).

Every brawler for the history of ESO had always slotted camo hunter...Easiest boost in damage. Now that Crit chance from camo hunter is applied to stealth now...but you can negate any hit you possible want. You can negate pretty much everything with cloak if you know what your doing. So a boost in damage and a boost in survivability.

Let's not forget to mention that if your vamp 3, and you have slotted concealed (Which 99% of all nightblades slot concealed) you basically are getting Sea Serpent's buff but without the snare...OP as heck...when you can stealth, negate all damage, hit a 18k health offering...turn around and shoot a 18k bow with a 13k incap/soul tether and then cloak again.

There's no reason not to slot cloak. That simple. There is NO penalty for slotting it either.

Yea and you know what's funny? @Alchimiste1, @Turtle_Bot @IncultaWolf, me, and several other people tried to tell people that the new Cloak buff would be too strong on a brawlerblade during the 1st PTS cycle. We got bashed by some NB ganker mains for bringing up a legitimate point, and guess what every updated brawlerblade is using Cloak right now and being really hard to kill while also able to force a crit Incap/Assasin's Will. A brawlerblade that can play as a ganker while being 10x harder to kill lol.

This wasn't the first time this happened. We've brought up sets like Relequen being too strong and we got bashed for it, yet it became meta just like we predicted. I don't want to sound toxic but a lot of people on the forums argue just for the sake of arguing when in reality they have no idea what they're talking about.

FoJul

StaticWave wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

stop the cap

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

stop the cap

It's true. The brawlers aren't using cloak, and if they are they aren't brawling as good.

strange because every brawler nb I know has invis cloak slotted now

Almost every nightblade in general is slotting cloak (unless you have Top G attitude and think that you don't need it cause your better for whatever reason).

Every brawler for the history of ESO had always slotted camo hunter...Easiest boost in damage. Now that Crit chance from camo hunter is applied to stealth now...but you can negate any hit you possible want. You can negate pretty much everything with cloak if you know what your doing. So a boost in damage and a boost in survivability.

Let's not forget to mention that if your vamp 3, and you have slotted concealed (Which 99% of all nightblades slot concealed) you basically are getting Sea Serpent's buff but without the snare...OP as heck...when you can stealth, negate all damage, hit a 18k health offering...turn around and shoot a 18k bow with a 13k incap/soul tether and then cloak again.

There's no reason not to slot cloak. That simple. There is NO penalty for slotting it either.

Yea and you know what's funny? @Alchimiste1, @Turtle_Bot @IncultaWolf, me, and several other people tried to tell people that the new Cloak buff would be too strong on a brawlerblade during the 1st PTS cycle. We got bashed by some NB ganker mains for bringing up a legitimate point, and guess what every updated brawlerblade is using Cloak right now and being really hard to kill while also able to force a crit Incap/Assasin's Will. A brawlerblade that can play as a ganker while being 10x harder to kill lol.

This wasn't the first time this happened. We've brought up sets like Relequen being too strong and we got bashed for it, yet it became meta just like we predicted. I don't want to sound toxic but a lot of people on the forums argue just for the sake of arguing when in reality they have no idea what they're talking about.

I've said this multiple times too. What was zos thinking on making a change like that.

In the meantime, cloak go brrrrrrr

Bushido2513

Ok here do this.

Make healthy offering the other morph of cloak

Make what was healthy offering into a hot

Remove the hot from.swallow soul and instead make it the buffed damage morph with a boosted tooltip or new added effect

I'm making this up as I go but feel even these not so well thought out changes would be better than the existing meta

Alchimiste1

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok here do this.

Make healthy offering the other morph of cloak

Make what was healthy offering into a hot

Remove the hot from.swallow soul and instead make it the buffed damage morph with a boosted tooltip or new added effect

I'm making this up as I go but feel even these not so well thought out changes would be better than the existing meta

or you know, just give cloak a ramp up cost as it should have

Galeriano

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok here do this.

Make healthy offering the other morph of cloak

Make what was healthy offering into a hot

Remove the hot from.swallow soul and instead make it the buffed damage morph with a boosted tooltip or new added effect

I'm making this up as I go but feel even these not so well thought out changes would be better than the existing meta

or you know, just give cloak a ramp up cost as it should have

It shouldn't.

Bushido2513

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok here do this.

Make healthy offering the other morph of cloak

Make what was healthy offering into a hot

Remove the hot from.swallow soul and instead make it the buffed damage morph with a boosted tooltip or new added effect

I'm making this up as I go but feel even these not so well thought out changes would be better than the existing meta

or you know, just give cloak a ramp up cost as it should have

My proposal was intended to leave most NB playstyles in a viable position while giving ranged a boost.

The ramp cost mechanic would nerf or not touch some playstyles while severely impacting others.

Good balance includes creating choices that require sacrifice but are rewarding.

A ramp mechanic doesn't create the opportunity for a good choice. It adds degrees of punishment depending on playstyle without addressing bigger issues

Vaqual

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok here do this.

Make healthy offering the other morph of cloak

Make what was healthy offering into a hot

Remove the hot from.swallow soul and instead make it the buffed damage morph with a boosted tooltip or new added effect

I'm making this up as I go but feel even these not so well thought out changes would be better than the existing meta

I think the suggested change hurts the identity and flavour of swallow soul a bit too much. I like using the ability and I think it should keep its functionality. A damage buff would not be worth losing the heal for, may as well use force shock/imbue weapon then.

Tuning down offering is easy enough, either by adjusting coefficients (hurts PvE healers) or turning up the self-dot by changing its stacking behaviour, intensity or both (with reasonable caps, to make it sustainable for dedicated healers while not being pressured). That would punish spamming self heals, while keeping it functional for PvE.

People are just circling around the same complaints with cloak and that in several threads, there is no point in reiterating any of it. Everbody seems to hate a different aspect of it and most arguments are biased or emotionally loaded. It appears to me that many players just want to let their frustration out and that there is no real interest in finding a fair, sensible and satisfying version for the ability. In the end a nearly 4k magicka ability has to do something, but even acknowledging or agreeing on proposed nerf ideas results in comments à la "Wow these rabid NB fanboys are so delusional, can they not see how OP this is. They must have no idea how the game works." It is not an ability that I am interested in one bit to be honest, but I also think the way people approach this is just cringe.

Bushido2513

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok here do this.

Make healthy offering the other morph of cloak

Make what was healthy offering into a hot

Remove the hot from.swallow soul and instead make it the buffed damage morph with a boosted tooltip or new added effect

I'm making this up as I go but feel even these not so well thought out changes would be better than the existing meta

I think the suggested change hurts the identity and flavour of swallow soul a bit too much. I like using the ability and I think it should keep its functionality. A damage buff would not be worth losing the heal for, may as well use force shock/imbue weapon then.

Tuning down offering is easy enough, either by adjusting coefficients (hurts PvE healers) or turning up the self-dot by changing its stacking behaviour, intensity or both (with reasonable caps, to make it sustainable for dedicated healers while not being pressured). That would punish spamming self heals, while keeping it functional for PvE.

People are just circling around the same complaints with cloak and that in several threads, there is no point in reiterating any of it. Everbody seems to hate a different aspect of it and most arguments are biased or emotionally loaded. It appears to me that many players just want to let their frustration out and that there is no real interest in finding a fair, sensible and satisfying version for the ability. In the end a nearly 4k magicka ability has to do something, but even acknowledging or agreeing on proposed nerf ideas results in comments à la "Wow these rabid NB fanboys are so delusional, can they not see how OP this is. They must have no idea how the game works." It is not an ability that I am interested in one bit to be honest, but I also think the way people approach this is just cringe.

The swallow soul change was just suggested because a lot want it to hit harder in pvp and would give up the dot but ok sure have one with a heal and one for more damage.

Again it's just ideas and the healthy offering idea is ok though it sounds like it might hurt other play styles that use it. That's why I just said make it a choice between the heal or the cloak and everyone gets something

StaticWave

FoJul wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

stop the cap

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

stop the cap

It's true. The brawlers aren't using cloak, and if they are they aren't brawling as good.

strange because every brawler nb I know has invis cloak slotted now

Almost every nightblade in general is slotting cloak (unless you have Top G attitude and think that you don't need it cause your better for whatever reason).

Every brawler for the history of ESO had always slotted camo hunter...Easiest boost in damage. Now that Crit chance from camo hunter is applied to stealth now...but you can negate any hit you possible want. You can negate pretty much everything with cloak if you know what your doing. So a boost in damage and a boost in survivability.

Let's not forget to mention that if your vamp 3, and you have slotted concealed (Which 99% of all nightblades slot concealed) you basically are getting Sea Serpent's buff but without the snare...OP as heck...when you can stealth, negate all damage, hit a 18k health offering...turn around and shoot a 18k bow with a 13k incap/soul tether and then cloak again.

There's no reason not to slot cloak. That simple. There is NO penalty for slotting it either.

Yea and you know what's funny? @Alchimiste1, @Turtle_Bot @IncultaWolf, me, and several other people tried to tell people that the new Cloak buff would be too strong on a brawlerblade during the 1st PTS cycle. We got bashed by some NB ganker mains for bringing up a legitimate point, and guess what every updated brawlerblade is using Cloak right now and being really hard to kill while also able to force a crit Incap/Assasin's Will. A brawlerblade that can play as a ganker while being 10x harder to kill lol.

This wasn't the first time this happened. We've brought up sets like Relequen being too strong and we got bashed for it, yet it became meta just like we predicted. I don't want to sound toxic but a lot of people on the forums argue just for the sake of arguing when in reality they have no idea what they're talking about.

I've said this multiple times too. What was zos thinking on making a change like that.

In the meantime, cloak go brrrrrrr

Yea, some people argue that losing Minor Berserk isn't worth it but is it really?

As a brawlerblade you're trading 5% Minor Berserk (which isn't even a true 5% from diminishing returns for stacking multiple dmg amplifiers) for 300 flat WD from Vamp 2 passive that can be amplified by Major Brutality and other % modifiers like Continuous. Not to mention the 300 flat WD buffs your heals too. At that point the 300 WD is just flat out better than Minor Berserk.

Imagine exiting Cloak with Major Berserk + 300 flat WD and a forced 100% crit rate for your bow proc lmao

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

.

Imagine exiting Cloak with Major Berserk + 300 flat WD and a forced 100% crit rate for your bow proc lmao

Been on both sides of it and definitely feel like this needs to change

I don't think any class should have this much damage with so little if any of a trade-off.

GooGa592

The ability to be invisible while doing damage is unsportsmanlike and attractive to those not looking for a fair fight.

Alchimiste1

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok here do this.

Make healthy offering the other morph of cloak

Make what was healthy offering into a hot

Remove the hot from.swallow soul and instead make it the buffed damage morph with a boosted tooltip or new added effect

I'm making this up as I go but feel even these not so well thought out changes would be better than the existing meta

or you know, just give cloak a ramp up cost as it should have

My proposal was intended to leave most NB playstyles in a viable position while giving ranged a boost.

The ramp cost mechanic would nerf or not touch some playstyles while severely impacting others.

Good balance includes creating choices that require sacrifice but are rewarding.

A ramp mechanic doesn't create the opportunity for a good choice. It adds degrees of punishment depending on playstyle without addressing bigger issues

I'm okay with that last. See ya everyone who presses cloak 4+ times in a row

Bushido2513

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok here do this.

Make healthy offering the other morph of cloak

Make what was healthy offering into a hot

Remove the hot from.swallow soul and instead make it the buffed damage morph with a boosted tooltip or new added effect

I'm making this up as I go but feel even these not so well thought out changes would be better than the existing meta

or you know, just give cloak a ramp up cost as it should have

My proposal was intended to leave most NB playstyles in a viable position while giving ranged a boost.

The ramp cost mechanic would nerf or not touch some playstyles while severely impacting others.

Good balance includes creating choices that require sacrifice but are rewarding.

A ramp mechanic doesn't create the opportunity for a good choice. It adds degrees of punishment depending on playstyle without addressing bigger issues

I'm okay with that last. See ya everyone who presses cloak 4+ times in a row

So having been on both sides I'll say this. I'd prefer that someone could cloak as much as they want as long as when they were caught they only had hots, shade, or speed to rely on because then they'd have to work a bit for the escape but still have their damage and stealth available.

Also I would like it if reveal skills lasted about 2 seconds longer due to the amount of free movement speed in the game. But yeah I don't want to take stealth spam away from someone that's either got a plan if they get discovered or who is just ok with likely dying if they get busted.

Just remove the easy access to top tier heals and stealth at the same time and you'll see a healthy change in NB population and playstyles

Bushido2513

GooGa592 wrote: »

The ability to be invisible while doing damage is unsportsmanlike and attractive to those not looking for a fair fight.

To be fair this game isn't really geared towards fair fights unless you go into a dueling tournament with strict rules.

Simply look at a health stacked Arcanist with master and vate weapons. Or a sorc with the same setup.

Cloaking in a fight isn't any less fair in a 1v1 though adding crazy damage and heals in that situation is an issue.


Still, the person that would jump you from stealth while you're in a fight would do the same on a dk warden or Arcanist, etc. NB is overly attractive due to having stealth, high damage, and a burst heal.

Alchimiste1

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok here do this.

Make healthy offering the other morph of cloak

Make what was healthy offering into a hot

Remove the hot from.swallow soul and instead make it the buffed damage morph with a boosted tooltip or new added effect

I'm making this up as I go but feel even these not so well thought out changes would be better than the existing meta

or you know, just give cloak a ramp up cost as it should have

My proposal was intended to leave most NB playstyles in a viable position while giving ranged a boost.

The ramp cost mechanic would nerf or not touch some playstyles while severely impacting others.

Good balance includes creating choices that require sacrifice but are rewarding.

A ramp mechanic doesn't create the opportunity for a good choice. It adds degrees of punishment depending on playstyle without addressing bigger issues

I'm okay with that last. See ya everyone who presses cloak 4+ times in a row

So having been on both sides I'll say this. I'd prefer that someone could cloak as much as they want as long as when they were caught they only had hots, shade, or speed to rely on because then they'd have to work a bit for the escape but still have their damage and stealth available.

Also I would like it if reveal skills lasted about 2 seconds longer due to the amount of free movement speed in the game. But yeah I don't want to take stealth spam away from someone that's either got a plan if they get discovered or who is just ok with likely dying if they get busted.

Just remove the easy access to top tier heals and stealth at the same time and you'll see a healthy change in NB population and playstyles

I do want to take away cloak spam

SaffronCitrusflower

Bushido2513 wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

The ability to be invisible while doing damage is unsportsmanlike and attractive to those not looking for a fair fight.

To be fair this game isn't really geared towards fair fights unless you go into a dueling tournament with strict rules.

Simply look at a health stacked Arcanist with master and vate weapons. Or a sorc with the same setup.

Cloaking in a fight isn't any less fair in a 1v1 though adding crazy damage and heals in that situation is an issue.


Still, the person that would jump you from stealth while you're in a fight would do the same on a dk warden or Arcanist, etc. NB is overly attractive due to having stealth, high damage, and a burst heal.

So NB's need either cloak, dps burst, or burst heal nerfed into the ground to be fair. Agreed.

Cloak is the most unfair and abused of these "skill" catagories. If the player wasn't invisible we'd be able to see them coming and react in most situations. Maybe making everyone have to use an invis pot to be invisible is the right solution and take NB cloak away all together so every class has the same ability to play while invisible.

Bushido2513

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok here do this.

Make healthy offering the other morph of cloak

Make what was healthy offering into a hot

Remove the hot from.swallow soul and instead make it the buffed damage morph with a boosted tooltip or new added effect

I'm making this up as I go but feel even these not so well thought out changes would be better than the existing meta

or you know, just give cloak a ramp up cost as it should have

My proposal was intended to leave most NB playstyles in a viable position while giving ranged a boost.

The ramp cost mechanic would nerf or not touch some playstyles while severely impacting others.

Good balance includes creating choices that require sacrifice but are rewarding.

A ramp mechanic doesn't create the opportunity for a good choice. It adds degrees of punishment depending on playstyle without addressing bigger issues

I'm okay with that last. See ya everyone who presses cloak 4+ times in a row

So having been on both sides I'll say this. I'd prefer that someone could cloak as much as they want as long as when they were caught they only had hots, shade, or speed to rely on because then they'd have to work a bit for the escape but still have their damage and stealth available.

Also I would like it if reveal skills lasted about 2 seconds longer due to the amount of free movement speed in the game. But yeah I don't want to take stealth spam away from someone that's either got a plan if they get discovered or who is just ok with likely dying if they get busted.

Just remove the easy access to top tier heals and stealth at the same time and you'll see a healthy change in NB population and playstyles

I do want to take away cloak spam

Hey by all means I understand anyone having an agenda. That's a personal thing and I respect it.

I won't agree that it's the best overall fair choice to everyone who cares about this subject but I certainly respect that we all get to have a view of what we want.

But there's also a difference between wanting something for ones self to be happy and wanting something for the overall group to be happy.

Bushido2513

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

The ability to be invisible while doing damage is unsportsmanlike and attractive to those not looking for a fair fight.

To be fair this game isn't really geared towards fair fights unless you go into a dueling tournament with strict rules.

Simply look at a health stacked Arcanist with master and vate weapons. Or a sorc with the same setup.

Cloaking in a fight isn't any less fair in a 1v1 though adding crazy damage and heals in that situation is an issue.


Still, the person that would jump you from stealth while you're in a fight would do the same on a dk warden or Arcanist, etc. NB is overly attractive due to having stealth, high damage, and a burst heal.

So NB's need either cloak, dps burst, or burst heal nerfed into the ground to be fair. Agreed.

Cloak is the most unfair and abused of these "skill" catagories. If the player wasn't invisible we'd be able to see them coming and react in most situations. Maybe making everyone have to use an invis pot to be invisible is the right solution and take NB cloak away all together so every class has the same ability to play while invisible.

Actually what I said is that they need to be separate choices in regards to the heal, and cloak.

Honestly if reveals just lasted 2 seconds longer and the heal and cloak were either or choices you'd see the number of nbs change overnight.

I don't like how tanky Arcanist are while still having damage but I don't need their shield, stun etc removed just to fix the annoyance.

Obliterating a skill when it could be balanced seems like overkill

FoJul

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

The ability to be invisible while doing damage is unsportsmanlike and attractive to those not looking for a fair fight.

To be fair this game isn't really geared towards fair fights unless you go into a dueling tournament with strict rules.

Simply look at a health stacked Arcanist with master and vate weapons. Or a sorc with the same setup.

Cloaking in a fight isn't any less fair in a 1v1 though adding crazy damage and heals in that situation is an issue.


Still, the person that would jump you from stealth while you're in a fight would do the same on a dk warden or Arcanist, etc. NB is overly attractive due to having stealth, high damage, and a burst heal.

So NB's need either cloak, dps burst, or burst heal nerfed into the ground to be fair. Agreed.

Cloak is the most unfair and abused of these "skill" catagories. If the player wasn't invisible we'd be able to see them coming and react in most situations. Maybe making everyone have to use an invis pot to be invisible is the right solution and take NB cloak away all together so every class has the same ability to play while invisible.

That's not a reason to be unfair to cloak. When you are in cyrodil, you should always be ready for anything. It is PvP after all. You can't run around and say you didn't see it coming. When you load into IC/Cyrodil you are basically signing up to be a gank target from the very start. As a lot of people will play gank blade no matter how many times you nerf it.

That being said, you can put restrictions on cloak, or ramping cost, or just make it cost 6k+ magicka, but overall it still will exist. You can't take away burst heal from the rest of the class because of 1 thing you disagree with. Every other class has a burst heal.

If you nerf nb's burst heal, i want to see every other classes heals nerfed too. Shattering rocks and coag on DK, Honor the dead on plar/Polar wind on warden/ etc etc.

See it just sounds absurd. Just stay on topic and nerf cloak.

reazea

FoJul wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

The ability to be invisible while doing damage is unsportsmanlike and attractive to those not looking for a fair fight.

To be fair this game isn't really geared towards fair fights unless you go into a dueling tournament with strict rules.

Simply look at a health stacked Arcanist with master and vate weapons. Or a sorc with the same setup.

Cloaking in a fight isn't any less fair in a 1v1 though adding crazy damage and heals in that situation is an issue.


Still, the person that would jump you from stealth while you're in a fight would do the same on a dk warden or Arcanist, etc. NB is overly attractive due to having stealth, high damage, and a burst heal.

So NB's need either cloak, dps burst, or burst heal nerfed into the ground to be fair. Agreed.

Cloak is the most unfair and abused of these "skill" catagories. If the player wasn't invisible we'd be able to see them coming and react in most situations. Maybe making everyone have to use an invis pot to be invisible is the right solution and take NB cloak away all together so every class has the same ability to play while invisible.

That's not a reason to be unfair to cloak. When you are in cyrodil, you should always be ready for anything. It is PvP after all. You can't run around and say you didn't see it coming. When you load into IC/Cyrodil you are basically signing up to be a gank target from the very start. As a lot of people will play gank blade no matter how many times you nerf it.

That being said, you can put restrictions on cloak, or ramping cost, or just make it cost 6k+ magicka, but overall it still will exist. You can't take away burst heal from the rest of the class because of 1 thing you disagree with. Every other class has a burst heal.

If you nerf nb's burst heal, i want to see every other classes heals nerfed too. Shattering rocks and coag on DK, Honor the dead on plar/Polar wind on warden/ etc etc.

See it just sounds absurd. Just stay on topic and nerf cloak.

"be unfair to cloak"? ...when cloak itself is what's unfair.

Not every class has a burst heal, and no other class has a burst heal as strong as an NB, and no other class has the burst damage of an NB.

NB's just seem to expect to have it all with no compromises of any ability in any way what so ever, while at the same time being invisible at all times.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

The ability to be invisible while doing damage is unsportsmanlike and attractive to those not looking for a fair fight.

To be fair this game isn't really geared towards fair fights unless you go into a dueling tournament with strict rules.

Simply look at a health stacked Arcanist with master and vate weapons. Or a sorc with the same setup.

Cloaking in a fight isn't any less fair in a 1v1 though adding crazy damage and heals in that situation is an issue.


Still, the person that would jump you from stealth while you're in a fight would do the same on a dk warden or Arcanist, etc. NB is overly attractive due to having stealth, high damage, and a burst heal.

So NB's need either cloak, dps burst, or burst heal nerfed into the ground to be fair. Agreed.

Cloak is the most unfair and abused of these "skill" catagories. If the player wasn't invisible we'd be able to see them coming and react in most situations. Maybe making everyone have to use an invis pot to be invisible is the right solution and take NB cloak away all together so every class has the same ability to play while invisible.

That's not a reason to be unfair to cloak. When you are in cyrodil, you should always be ready for anything. It is PvP after all. You can't run around and say you didn't see it coming. When you load into IC/Cyrodil you are basically signing up to be a gank target from the very start. As a lot of people will play gank blade no matter how many times you nerf it.

That being said, you can put restrictions on cloak, or ramping cost, or just make it cost 6k+ magicka, but overall it still will exist. You can't take away burst heal from the rest of the class because of 1 thing you disagree with. Every other class has a burst heal.

If you nerf nb's burst heal, i want to see every other classes heals nerfed too. Shattering rocks and coag on DK, Honor the dead on plar/Polar wind on warden/ etc etc.

See it just sounds absurd. Just stay on topic and nerf cloak.

The burst heal should stay and the cloak should stay but having both at the same time is overboard in that you're giving two great defensive options to a class that already has good defense tactics that are more appropriately fair and make sense.

It's similar to why corrosive should either give offense or defense but not both as it does now because that leads to situations that can be frustrating especially when compared to other kits

warm_blanket

The burst heal should stay and the cloak should stay but having both at the same time is overboard in that you're giving two great defensive options to a class that already has good defense tactics that are more appropriately fair and make sense.

This is spot on. You cannot be allowed to have a good burst heal and invisibility at the same time - the free roll dodges on top of this are also a problem (thanks phantasmal).

These options have to be made mutually exclusive so that there is a defense/offense tradeoff between brawlblade and cloakblade.

We already have that with the two morphs of cloak, one grants invisibility and the other healing, but healthy offering is so strong by itself no brawler needs the healing morph of cloak to begin with. Even cloakblades can easily survive when invisibility is countered by just block healing and dodge cancelling until the invis counter times out thanks to the burst heal.

Increasing the scaling + duration of the self dot on healthy offering is one way to nudge brawlers to swap away from the invisibility morph of cloak, and reduce the straightforward survivability on cloakers.

A very fair nerf to cloak that could be done in tandem is to only proc major savagery/prophecy for a few seconds after casting invisibility.

Dedicated cloakblades are already spamming the ability every 3-4 GCDs anyways, so it wouldn't affect their uptime on the buff, but it would be an extra mag sink for brawlers to the point where camo hunter could end up being optimal instead (granted that would screw the diehard stamblades even harder but the class is so mag biased that the topic really deserves its own discussion).

Frankly it's a shame shadow image isn't mandatory for survival on nb. It's a great skill that's very thematic for the class, but the fact that you can get by on just the healing+invis combo is kind of sad. Ideally nb survival would revolve more so around their unique abilities than just raw healing.

tldr nb has such efficient barspace that they can smush together skills meant for different playstyles all in one build and do everything all at once. Some smart nerfs need to be done to introduce real tradeoffs in skill selection for the class.

Galeriano

FoJul wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

The ability to be invisible while doing damage is unsportsmanlike and attractive to those not looking for a fair fight.

To be fair this game isn't really geared towards fair fights unless you go into a dueling tournament with strict rules.

Simply look at a health stacked Arcanist with master and vate weapons. Or a sorc with the same setup.

Cloaking in a fight isn't any less fair in a 1v1 though adding crazy damage and heals in that situation is an issue.


Still, the person that would jump you from stealth while you're in a fight would do the same on a dk warden or Arcanist, etc. NB is overly attractive due to having stealth, high damage, and a burst heal.

So NB's need either cloak, dps burst, or burst heal nerfed into the ground to be fair. Agreed.

Cloak is the most unfair and abused of these "skill" catagories. If the player wasn't invisible we'd be able to see them coming and react in most situations. Maybe making everyone have to use an invis pot to be invisible is the right solution and take NB cloak away all together so every class has the same ability to play while invisible.

That's not a reason to be unfair to cloak. When you are in cyrodil, you should always be ready for anything. It is PvP after all. You can't run around and say you didn't see it coming. When you load into IC/Cyrodil you are basically signing up to be a gank target from the very start. As a lot of people will play gank blade no matter how many times you nerf it.

That being said, you can put restrictions on cloak, or ramping cost, or just make it cost 6k+ magicka, but overall it still will exist. You can't take away burst heal from the rest of the class because of 1 thing you disagree with. Every other class has a burst heal.

If you nerf nb's burst heal, i want to see every other classes heals nerfed too. Shattering rocks and coag on DK, Honor the dead on plar/Polar wind on warden/ etc etc.

See it just sounds absurd. Just stay on topic and nerf cloak.

The same rule should apply to nightblades. When in Cyrodill they should be always ready for everything not just when they are not hiding. So either stealth playstyle should be tuned down or sources of detection should be buffed to the point even cloaked nightblade can't feel safe at any given time same as everyone else right now can't feel safe. IC is a gank fest because of how overwhelmingly more beneficial it is to be a nb there compared to everything else. Nightblade is the only class able to effectively play low risk high reward playstyle there.

Yes after nerfs to stealth playstyle, cloak would still exist. That's the whole point. Nobody wants to remove stealth playstyle completly but many people voice the opinion that it should be tuned down because right now it's too strong. So strong that playing nb differently is sub optimal and so strong that healthy buffs to non cloak playstyles on a nb are almost impossible and will always backfire. One of the simpliest ways to not take burst heal from rest of the class while nerfng stealth playstyle is making the only burst heal on the class from the other morph of cloak and turning malevolent offering into something else than a burst heal. That way You would always have to decide wheter You want to play as a ganker but without burst heal or as a brawler with a burst heal but both at the same time wouldn't be possible. As for the argument that every other class have a burst heal yeah it's true but it's also a truth that nightblade's burst heal is one of the strongest out there which is an issue in itself.

Going by Your logic if nightblade needs a burst heal just because others have it than everyone needs a cloak just because nb have it. What if I want to be a stealth playstyle based templar? Why can't I have that while nightblade can have burst heals same as templar? See it just sounds absurd. Nightblade had no class acces to a burst heal for majority of game existence and was still recongised as one of the strongest and sometimes the strongest PvP setups just because of accces to a cloak. ZoS broke that compromise completly by buffing cloak and giving nightblade burst heal alongside many dmg and defense buffs while leaving soursess of detection as half baked by giving them only cosmetic changes or even nerfs (radiant magelight and detection potions these days are a shadow of former selfs).