Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Your addressing healing as if the healing is what making gankblades OP. I have to disagree strongly. Also situational awareness/basically skill only goes so far. You got to take in consideration of high ping/lag/desync and what not. Reducing the healing from nightblades will affect nightblades across the spectrum.

For example, I run at 100 ping usually, and I was ganked by a destro ult and bow...I saw my health disappearing and didnt see the destro ult/ the ganker until I was to far gone. I was standing in a keep tower while an EP zerg was rolling in. If I could see that ganker 2 seconds heck even 1 second sooner, I would've got away.

Another example, there was a nightblade running the titanborn setup, and killed my Arcanist friend (In defensive CP and Defensive Sets) and he died before he could out heal it.

Correct they aren't the same issue I was addressing. So let me focus in on the gankblade piece. Now I'm speaking as a person that has played and fought gankblades.

Honestly I don't find them to be that strong in attacking me other than when I'm not paying attention or the game decides to favor them with desync. But let's be clear in that we can't balance around desync, that just needs to be fixed in general but should never be how the game is balanced because it's just random and again, needs to be fixed.

So yeah if a gankblade hits me every now and then I'll die but most times I just hear the audio cue and either block or heal into a roll dodge. And yes make sure my buffs are up.

Now when you talk about bombs, that's its own thing and again is very much about situational awareness and a decent build.

I've also found that yes I can kill like 3 people in a row on my gankblade but that's in comparison to when I meet targets that know how to play the game and basically just kill me once the attack fails.

I main IC which can sometimes be the home of the nb/gank and I can say that honestly most gank attempts fail on me as long as I'm paying attention. To the point that I wouldn't call them op at all or something that ruined my experience down there. And that's me playing on sorc so it's not like I have a ton of healing to rely on, I just stay on the move.

We're all going to die to something from time to time and it's just a question of asking was there any fair counterplay to it or was this something that would just kill me no matter what I do. Gankblades have counterplay as I've described above.


I mean honestly in this game you don't even have to get ganked at this point if you don't want to and that's without even really doing much. Get on a high health build, put on like pariah, zoals, and some other proc heal or tanky set then set your cp to auto break free with other defensive stars and you wouldn't even have to do much to defend yourself. Not that this setup would provide damage but my point was just to show that you can either setup your build to allow you to actively defend against a gank or you can setup your build to just no really allow you to get ganked but either way ganking has counterplay that's not hard to achieve.

ganking isnt the issue, abusing cloak is.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

ganking isnt the issue, abusing cloak is.

I mean that's when I pop a reveal skill or pot, mostly pot in my case because they are more reliable. If it's a ganker I can usually just kill them and if it's a brawler then we fight it out and I time things around my ability to reveal.

In a lot of my fights with nbs all I can say is that they have the stronger overall kit but not that them having cloak has ever really been the biggest factor in my deaths with them.

Again I speak as an IC player where I believe the nb population is pretty high though that's not to say that there aren't a ton in Cyro or many in bgs.

Invis at will doesn't really bother me because I can break it at will.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

ganking isnt the issue, abusing cloak is.

I mean that's when I pop a reveal skill or pot, mostly pot in my case because they are more reliable. If it's a ganker I can usually just kill them and if it's a brawler then we fight it out and I time things around my ability to reveal.

In a lot of my fights with nbs all I can say is that they have the stronger overall kit but not that them having cloak has ever really been the biggest factor in my deaths with them.

Again I speak as an IC player where I believe the nb population is pretty high though that's not to say that there aren't a ton in Cyro or many in bgs.

Invis at will doesn't really bother me because I can break it at will.

And a skilled cloak abuser is gonna know how to get away from a detect pot that has a 45 second cooldown. You really don't think gankers have adapted to detect pots even after the huge buff to them. It sounds like your saying that Nightblade is balanced or something.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

And a skilled cloak abuser is gonna know how to get away from a detect pot that has a 45 second cooldown. You really don't think gankers have adapted to detect pots even after the huge buff to them. It sounds like your saying that Nightblade is balanced or something.

I mean that's fine, if they want to retreat. Depending on how they respond to any damage I gave them after the cloak was broken I might kite away too.

I've always said that overall nb has a more well rounded kit than any class other than dk which makes them fairly higher powered then other classes.

What I'm saying is a cloak user doesn't bother me much. What actually becomes a pain is the amount of healing they have access too. I can drop a kitchen sink on a nb when I bring them out of stealth then have them heal through half the damage I did or have aoe mitigation and cheap roll dodges. Them being slippery, having healing, and damage is an issue but cloak by itself doesn't really bother me much.

Turtle_Bot

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

And a skilled cloak abuser is gonna know how to get away from a detect pot that has a 45 second cooldown. You really don't think gankers have adapted to detect pots even after the huge buff to them. It sounds like your saying that Nightblade is balanced or something.

I mean that's fine, if they want to retreat. Depending on how they respond to any damage I gave them after the cloak was broken I might kite away too.

I've always said that overall nb has a more well rounded kit than any class other than dk which makes them fairly higher powered then other classes.

What I'm saying is a cloak user doesn't bother me much. What actually becomes a pain is the amount of healing they have access too. I can drop a kitchen sink on a nb when I bring them out of stealth then have them heal through half the damage I did or have aoe mitigation and cheap roll dodges. Them being slippery, having healing, and damage is an issue but cloak by itself doesn't really bother me much.

This creates more issues though and becomes particularly problematic when such a strong game mechanic such as invisibility is involved. This is why NB has become such a huge issue and giving it the buffs it got in U39 was an absurd (and horrible) decision.

NB used to be fine because while it was annoying, it was significantly niche/rare enough that while it was good practice to be ready/prepared for it, it wasn't a guaranteed factor in open world fights. It also used to have a visible tell when it was lining up its burst thanks to the proc sets giving you the 1 second warning that a snipe burst was incoming.

Nowadays thanks to the numerous buffs to the class kit such as a reliable, cheap and strong burst heal, unmatched burst potential, numerous damage modifiers that are able to be freely stacked up (including crit), easy to access mitigation and mobility that other classes can only dream of and highly flexible bar space, all while keeping their entire evasive kit has not only made the class far more common, but only served to exacerbate the issues that could previously be shrugged off as "well I was just not paying attention and the NB that happened to be in the area got me" to the point that this is now a consistent and major factor in almost every fight.

A friend (good 1vXer) explained it to me the best, their comment was:

I am not concerned about a Leap, Corrosive, Incap, Dawnbreaker, Meteor or Ballista (bow ult) when I am mid fight trying to 1vX. What I am concerned about when fighting open world is a random 15k+ spec bow (or 2 or 3) popping out from nowhere mid fight that just completely ends the fight there with no possibility of counter-play.

I will repeat, because this is important to understand, this is fine when it is a niche situation like it used to be, but it becomes a huge balance issue when it becomes an extremely common (almost guaranteed) occurrence for every fight, which is what we are currently seeing thanks to the nearly 18 month long streak of buffs to NB.

The other thing that I have noticed a lot lately is the prevalence of ranged NB "gank sqauds" consisting of 3-4 (or more) NBs that go around and just instantly nuke someone (even full tanks) from 100 to 0 out of invis from range with no chance of counter play because you cannot see it coming to react to it and once you know they are there, you're already dead and they have already moved on to a new spot/target so you can't even go back to hunt them down.
At least the Bowblades of old had the big AoE warnings under you from their proc sets when they were lining up their burst giving you a chance to counter it with block into dodge (even when mounted). This tell is not there for the current NB ranged ganking build that uses stat based sets and spec bow + crushing shock to gank instead of proc sets because of how strong the class has become.

There's a good reason stealth classes/characters are never given anywhere near the same level of complete power that NBs currently have in ANY other multiplayer game that has any sort of PvP aspect, without serious and massive drawbacks such as long cooldowns, minimal healing/mitigation, minimal damage or extremely cheap, easy and highly effective counters to stealth being made easily available without any sacrifice to acquire/use them (often multiples of these drawbacks are included).

We are currently seeing in ESO the effects of what happens when a stealth class is given that sort of power without any checks or balances and it is not good for game balance, enjoyment or the long term health of the game, especially being left unchecked for well over a year by now.

Bushido2513

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This creates more issues though and becomes particularly problematic when such a strong game mechanic such as invisibility is involved. This is why NB has become such a huge issue and giving it the buffs it got in U39 was an absurd (and horrible) decision.

The invis adds to the issue but isn't the complete issue. I've seen good players play the kit without even using cloak and still be superior easily. Invis just enables another type of play option for all the various styles. A brawler blade is still very much a big issue with zero invis involved.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

NB used to be fine because while it was annoying, it was significantly niche/rare enough that while it was good practice to be ready/prepared for it, it wasn't a guaranteed factor in open world fights. It also used to have a visible tell when it was lining up its burst thanks to the proc sets giving you the 1 second warning that a snipe burst was incoming.

In my experience on both sides of the fence nbs were always there open world. To the point where the quest kill enemy nightblades was just as good as kill enemy players. It was actually a lot worse before the proc timing nerfs when everyone wanted to be a two tapper. As a person that rolls mostly solo in the game I've always known that nbs coming out of nowhere was pretty much expected.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Nowadays thanks to the numerous buffs to the class kit such as a reliable, cheap and strong burst heal, unmatched burst potential, numerous damage modifiers that are able to be freely stacked up (including crit), easy to access mitigation and mobility that other classes can only dream of and highly flexible bar space, all while keeping their entire evasive kit has not only made the class far more common, but only served to exacerbate the issues that could previously be shrugged off as "well I was just not paying attention and the NB that happened to be in the area got me" to the point that this is now a consistent and major factor in almost every fight.

Agree on the numerous buffs but would say if anything they are only a bit more common than the used to be. But like I said in all my years playing the game in open world, you have to expect the nb will enter any given fight. This has been through many levels of strength of the class be it snipe back in the day, gank builds through the years, bombs, etc. A nb entering a fight open world was just a given for me. People like to hide and choose their attack and know it's best to do so when you're already engaged. That's just people period lol

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

A friend (good 1vXer) explained it to me the best, their comment was:

I am not concerned about a Leap, Corrosive, Incap, Dawnbreaker, Meteor or Ballista (bow ult) when I am mid fight trying to 1vX. What I am concerned about when fighting open world is a random 15k+ spec bow (or 2 or 3) popping out from nowhere mid fight that just completely ends the fight there with no possibility of counter-play.

I will repeat, because this is important to understand, this is fine when it is a niche situation like it used to be, but it becomes a huge balance issue when it becomes an extremely common (almost guaranteed) occurrence for every fight, which is what we are currently seeing thanks to the nearly 18 month long streak of buffs to NB.

Well let's be clear on the first thing. 1vX in this game is discouraged at this point, that's just the agenda ZOS pushes so I can't say too much about how 1vX turns out because it's not meant to be regular thing. I still get the occasional X as do others but it's much more rare as meant to be by ZOS. Only counterplay to that bow was being ready and in a group with friends and maybe a healer.

Again for me kill enemy players and kill enemy nbs have always yielded nearly the same results in speed of completing the quest. People have just always liked stealth. You'd have to nerf quite a lot on the class to get stealth to not be as popular. Or to put it this way, if you nerf the damage you'll just probably get more of them grouping and working together to achieve the same effect. You'll have a hard time getting so many new and other types of players to drop stealth class. But yeah I still support proper nerfing of the class so that it's not so heavily weighted against other classes.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The other thing that I have noticed a lot lately is the prevalence of ranged NB "gank sqauds" consisting of 3-4 (or more) NBs that go around and just instantly nuke someone (even full tanks) from 100 to 0 out of invis from range with no chance of counter play because you cannot see it coming to react to it and once you know they are there, you're already dead and they have already moved on to a new spot/target so you can't even go back to hunt them down.
At least the Bowblades of old had the big AoE warnings under you from their proc sets when they were lining up their burst giving you a chance to counter it with block into dodge (even when mounted). This tell is not there for the current NB ranged ganking build that uses stat based sets and spec bow + crushing shock to gank instead of proc sets because of how strong the class has become.

There's a good reason stealth classes/characters are never given anywhere near the same level of complete power that NBs currently have in ANY other multiplayer game that has any sort of PvP aspect, without serious and massive drawbacks such as long cooldowns, minimal healing/mitigation, minimal damage or extremely cheap, easy and highly effective counters to stealth being made easily available without any sacrifice to acquire/use them (often multiples of these drawbacks are included).

We are currently seeing in ESO the effects of what happens when a stealth class is given that sort of power without any checks or balances and it is not good for game balance, enjoyment or the long term health of the game, especially being left unchecked for well over a year by now.

So again I'll say that you could give this power to any class and you'd have similar problems, DK is the proof of that. The stealth is just icing on the cake.

Also I remember there was a patch when Templar was OP and someone told me they got ran down by 4 Templars and I was like well yeah but technically 4 of anything will likely kill you the one person. I'm saying that in your scenario yeah you can say hey I couldn't see them till it was too late but that could have just as well been 3 to 4 dks or again anything really and if they play the builds right and coordinate, you're probably not surviving.

NB kit is noticeably stronger than others in overall damage/healing, I'm for sure saying that. But I'm also saying you can take cloak off the bar and the core issues are still there easily.

For instance give sorc the healing, crit modifiers, bar space, and spec bow from nb and you have the same problem.

Templar already has the heals so give it spec bow, bar space and the crit modifiers and same problem.

NB remove the healing and you'd still have a good amount of gankblades but likely fewer brawlers unless they used sets to compensate.

Remove the damage, and well you really don't have nightblade but I'm pretty sure you'd still se a lot of them just more invis users

Point is that I don't think invis is the big issue here but more so damage, healing, too much bar space, crit modifiers, etc. Deal with some of that and nb would probably be more tolerable by the masses.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This creates more issues though and becomes particularly problematic when such a strong game mechanic such as invisibility is involved. This is why NB has become such a huge issue and giving it the buffs it got in U39 was an absurd (and horrible) decision.

The invis adds to the issue but isn't the complete issue. I've seen good players play the kit without even using cloak and still be superior easily. Invis just enables another type of play option for all the various styles. A brawler blade is still very much a big issue with zero invis involved.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

NB used to be fine because while it was annoying, it was significantly niche/rare enough that while it was good practice to be ready/prepared for it, it wasn't a guaranteed factor in open world fights. It also used to have a visible tell when it was lining up its burst thanks to the proc sets giving you the 1 second warning that a snipe burst was incoming.

In my experience on both sides of the fence nbs were always there open world. To the point where the quest kill enemy nightblades was just as good as kill enemy players. It was actually a lot worse before the proc timing nerfs when everyone wanted to be a two tapper. As a person that rolls mostly solo in the game I've always known that nbs coming out of nowhere was pretty much expected.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Nowadays thanks to the numerous buffs to the class kit such as a reliable, cheap and strong burst heal, unmatched burst potential, numerous damage modifiers that are able to be freely stacked up (including crit), easy to access mitigation and mobility that other classes can only dream of and highly flexible bar space, all while keeping their entire evasive kit has not only made the class far more common, but only served to exacerbate the issues that could previously be shrugged off as "well I was just not paying attention and the NB that happened to be in the area got me" to the point that this is now a consistent and major factor in almost every fight.

Agree on the numerous buffs but would say if anything they are only a bit more common than the used to be. But like I said in all my years playing the game in open world, you have to expect the nb will enter any given fight. This has been through many levels of strength of the class be it snipe back in the day, gank builds through the years, bombs, etc. A nb entering a fight open world was just a given for me. People like to hide and choose their attack and know it's best to do so when you're already engaged. That's just people period lol

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

A friend (good 1vXer) explained it to me the best, their comment was:

I am not concerned about a Leap, Corrosive, Incap, Dawnbreaker, Meteor or Ballista (bow ult) when I am mid fight trying to 1vX. What I am concerned about when fighting open world is a random 15k+ spec bow (or 2 or 3) popping out from nowhere mid fight that just completely ends the fight there with no possibility of counter-play.

I will repeat, because this is important to understand, this is fine when it is a niche situation like it used to be, but it becomes a huge balance issue when it becomes an extremely common (almost guaranteed) occurrence for every fight, which is what we are currently seeing thanks to the nearly 18 month long streak of buffs to NB.

Well let's be clear on the first thing. 1vX in this game is discouraged at this point, that's just the agenda ZOS pushes so I can't say too much about how 1vX turns out because it's not meant to be regular thing. I still get the occasional X as do others but it's much more rare as meant to be by ZOS. Only counterplay to that bow was being ready and in a group with friends and maybe a healer.

Again for me kill enemy players and kill enemy nbs have always yielded nearly the same results in speed of completing the quest. People have just always liked stealth. You'd have to nerf quite a lot on the class to get stealth to not be as popular. Or to put it this way, if you nerf the damage you'll just probably get more of them grouping and working together to achieve the same effect. You'll have a hard time getting so many new and other types of players to drop stealth class. But yeah I still support proper nerfing of the class so that it's not so heavily weighted against other classes.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The other thing that I have noticed a lot lately is the prevalence of ranged NB "gank sqauds" consisting of 3-4 (or more) NBs that go around and just instantly nuke someone (even full tanks) from 100 to 0 out of invis from range with no chance of counter play because you cannot see it coming to react to it and once you know they are there, you're already dead and they have already moved on to a new spot/target so you can't even go back to hunt them down.
At least the Bowblades of old had the big AoE warnings under you from their proc sets when they were lining up their burst giving you a chance to counter it with block into dodge (even when mounted). This tell is not there for the current NB ranged ganking build that uses stat based sets and spec bow + crushing shock to gank instead of proc sets because of how strong the class has become.

There's a good reason stealth classes/characters are never given anywhere near the same level of complete power that NBs currently have in ANY other multiplayer game that has any sort of PvP aspect, without serious and massive drawbacks such as long cooldowns, minimal healing/mitigation, minimal damage or extremely cheap, easy and highly effective counters to stealth being made easily available without any sacrifice to acquire/use them (often multiples of these drawbacks are included).

We are currently seeing in ESO the effects of what happens when a stealth class is given that sort of power without any checks or balances and it is not good for game balance, enjoyment or the long term health of the game, especially being left unchecked for well over a year by now.

So again I'll say that you could give this power to any class and you'd have similar problems, DK is the proof of that. The stealth is just icing on the cake.

Also I remember there was a patch when Templar was OP and someone told me they got ran down by 4 Templars and I was like well yeah but technically 4 of anything will likely kill you the one person. I'm saying that in your scenario yeah you can say hey I couldn't see them till it was too late but that could have just as well been 3 to 4 dks or again anything really and if they play the builds right and coordinate, you're probably not surviving.

NB kit is noticeably stronger than others in overall damage/healing, I'm for sure saying that. But I'm also saying you can take cloak off the bar and the core issues are still there easily.

For instance give sorc the healing, crit modifiers, bar space, and spec bow from nb and you have the same problem.

Templar already has the heals so give it spec bow, bar space and the crit modifiers and same problem.

NB remove the healing and you'd still have a good amount of gankblades but likely fewer brawlers unless they used sets to compensate.

Remove the damage, and well you really don't have nightblade but I'm pretty sure you'd still se a lot of them just more invis users

Point is that I don't think invis is the big issue here but more so damage, healing, too much bar space, crit modifiers, etc. Deal with some of that and nb would probably be more tolerable by the masses.

At this point your saying that Nightblade is God tier. Which it definitely is not that. Nightblades are still squishy with full damage multipliers. Yeah the burst heal is nice on NB, but it isn't carrying NB. Rollie pollie builds have always been a thing for mitagating damage, and not just on NB. You can still 2 shot a full damage nightblade. When it comes to brawlers, its a skill issue if you cant kill them. I'd say templars and Arcanist have better sustain/defense. Dks can literally just facetank you. Nightblade cannot. Wardens can face tank and outheal you.

Your being over dramatic about how out of reach Nightblade is to other classes. There damage is literally this *Incap, Bow* you can block and dodge both of them. If you get 2 tapped its a skill issue. Every class in the game has a strong burst heal. Some just arent as relevant as others.

Why did cloak get buffed? I can't answer that. Why did concealed get 10% damage increase? I can't answer that either.
But im pretty sure you already know how i feel about melee nightblade.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

At this point your saying that Nightblade is God tier. Which it definitely is not that. Nightblades are still squishy with full damage multipliers. Yeah the burst heal is nice on NB, but it isn't carrying NB. Rollie pollie builds have always been a thing for mitagating damage, and not just on NB. You can still 2 shot a full damage nightblade. When it comes to brawlers, its a skill issue if you cant kill them. I'd say templars and Arcanist have better sustain/defense. Dks can literally just facetank you. Nightblade cannot. Wardens can face tank and outheal you.

Your being over dramatic about how out of reach Nightblade is to other classes. There damage is literally this *Incap, Bow* you can block and dodge both of them. If you get 2 tapped its a skill issue. Every class in the game has a strong burst heal. Some just arent as relevant as others.

Why did cloak get buffed? I can't answer that. Why did concealed get 10% damage increase? I can't answer that either.
But im pretty sure you already know how i feel about melee nightblade.

Wow you just summarized so many builds, playstyle, etc as if fights are just that simple.

I said what I said, they have a more well rounded kit vs other classes. It's not good tier at all just very strong when well played and cloak isn't required.

Some I kill some I don't, but what I'm saying is generally NB can hold up better than expected for the amount of damage it carries.

Also you say 2 tap as if every class in the game is capable of 2 tapping an equally competent NB.

Like I said you summarized a LOT of variables there. That's like skipping all the math and just saying here's the obvious answer to a complicated scenario.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

At this point your saying that Nightblade is God tier. Which it definitely is not that. Nightblades are still squishy with full damage multipliers. Yeah the burst heal is nice on NB, but it isn't carrying NB. Rollie pollie builds have always been a thing for mitagating damage, and not just on NB. You can still 2 shot a full damage nightblade. When it comes to brawlers, its a skill issue if you cant kill them. I'd say templars and Arcanist have better sustain/defense. Dks can literally just facetank you. Nightblade cannot. Wardens can face tank and outheal you.

Your being over dramatic about how out of reach Nightblade is to other classes. There damage is literally this *Incap, Bow* you can block and dodge both of them. If you get 2 tapped its a skill issue. Every class in the game has a strong burst heal. Some just arent as relevant as others.

Why did cloak get buffed? I can't answer that. Why did concealed get 10% damage increase? I can't answer that either.
But im pretty sure you already know how i feel about melee nightblade.

Wow you just summarized so many builds, playstyle, etc as if fights are just that simple.

I said what I said, they have a more well rounded kit vs other classes. It's not good tier at all just very strong when well played and cloak isn't required.

Some I kill some I don't, but what I'm saying is generally NB can hold up better than expected for the amount of damage it carries.

Also you say 2 tap as if every class in the game is capable of 2 tapping an equally competent NB.

Like I said you summarized a LOT of variables there. That's like skipping all the math and just saying here's the obvious answer to a complicated scenario.

I mean, if you really get incap bowed. Thats a skill issue. If you want to switch the spectrum on something that can 2 tap or less. Look at DKs, they've always had 1 tap potential. And most of the time you cant escape it. Corro, Acuity, into fossilize whip. GG

The Tool kit on nightblade, is practically the same on most classes. If they decreased the damage on the burst ability, and decreased cloak spam. Nightblade is average again. With DK's, Wardens, and Bubble plars coming up with tankier builds. I'm starting to see brawler blade fall behind in atleast openworld. As a nightblade main myself, in duels, people have adapted to nightblades, and don't always go down easy. I lose some of my fights too, I'm not the greatest. In OW, I use cloak to avoid zergs and zerglings.

Let me know specifically, the tools nightblade has that other classes don't and how its more effective than other classes.

But that's not what we are talking about here, in many conversations you like to steer away from the main topic. If Nightblade got a cost increase to Cloak, it would be the same as stamplars not being able to spam purge. It should have at very least a ramping cost increase which is increasing the cost as you spam it like streak/ roll dodge. It is an ability that negates/evades damage. When this changes, it will allow you to still use the mechanic without abusing it.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

But that's not what we are talking about here, in many conversations you like to steer away from the main topic. If Nightblade got a cost increase to Cloak, it would be the same as stamplars not being able to spam purge. It should have at very least a ramping cost increase which is increasing the cost as you spam it like streak/ roll dodge. It is an ability that negates/evades damage. When this changes, it will allow you to still use the mechanic without abusing it.

Eh I'm just not all that rigid on topics and don't mind discussing multiple things at once.

That being said here's the thing in your scenario, Templar uses purge evenly across playstyles, NB does not.

A bomber or a gankers uses cloak more than a brawler. So you're saying they should all eat the cost increase the same even though they use the skill differently and may need to spam it for legitimate reasons of moving into position? That seems like a bad one size fits all solution.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

But that's not what we are talking about here, in many conversations you like to steer away from the main topic. If Nightblade got a cost increase to Cloak, it would be the same as stamplars not being able to spam purge. It should have at very least a ramping cost increase which is increasing the cost as you spam it like streak/ roll dodge. It is an ability that negates/evades damage. When this changes, it will allow you to still use the mechanic without abusing it.

Eh I'm just not all that rigid on topics and don't mind discussing multiple things at once.

That being said here's the thing in your scenario, Templar uses purge evenly across playstyles, NB does not.

A bomber or a gankers uses cloak more than a brawler. So you're saying they should all eat the cost increase the same even though they use the skill differently and may need to spam it for legitimate reasons of moving into position? That seems like a bad one size fits all solution.

Brawler don't spam cloak... Adding a ramping cost, (meaning each time you cast the ability it cost more on the next cast and the next, similar to roll dodge, and streak)

Templar's dont spam purge in a fight against a DK cause it cost 5k mag. If it cost 3k or less they could cast it, and spam it if needed.

Also, yes put a ramping cost on it no matter what playstyle of nightblade, you shouldn't be able to spam it over 5 times in a row.

Finally, if you get bombed, that means your in a zerg. Bomb builds are encouraged by ZoS to counter zergs. Maybe step away from the zerg if you don't want to get bombed.

In conclusion, Nightblade is the only class that has a *ESCAPE ALL VISIBILITY AND TARGET SEEKING* as well as *REMOVING DAMAGE CHANNELING ABILITIES* don't forget about the free crit chance for having it slotted...that just means everyone drops camo hunter and slots stealth...cause why not. Guranteed crit from strike is literally made for Gankers and bombers alone. No one is asking to change what stealth does, we just simply want a RAMPING cost increase.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

Brawler don't spam cloak... Adding a ramping cost, (meaning each time you cast the ability it cost more on the next cast and the next, similar to roll dodge, and streak)

Correct and that's my point but as a ganker or bomber I may need to spam it to get into position. So if it had a ramping cost now I have to either add in more recovery and weaken the build or just not be able to move freely across the battlefield, same for a bomber. Meanwhile a brawler is sitting ok because they didn't need to spam it in the first place. The three styles aren't affected in the same way and that's not ok.

FoJul wrote: »

Templar's dont spam purge in a fight against a DK cause it cost 5k mag. If it cost 3k or less they could cast it, and spam it if needed.

What I'm saying is a magplar has no more need for purge then a stamplar. The usage is the same for both characters though of course one can use it more if they like. So adding a ramping cost to it for example equally affects both playstyles. That's not the same with a bomber vs ganker vs brawler, the ramp affects their ability to play as they want differently.

FoJul wrote: »

Also, yes put a ramping cost on it no matter what playstyle of nightblade, you shouldn't be able to spam it over 5 times in a row.

Even if they are say a pve player just trying to get by zergs and ads as they want to finish a quest? Or if I'm ganking and I need to gank then cloak for defense as I hit multiple targets I guess that's just out the window?

By the way the targets have COUNTERS lol. Ramp has to factor in the prevalence of counters which are all too common in the game. This punishes passive nightblades, bombers, gankers, brawlers when there are already counters available as well that nullify the effect of the skill. This math doesn't add up as being fair at all.

Now don't get me wrong, would this be a bad change if everyone was a brawler or even mag based, naw not too big of a deal maybe but that's not the case.

FoJul wrote: »

No one is asking to change what stealth does, we just simply want a RAMPING cost increase.

My point exactly, you want to up the cost on builds who may need access to this skill in quantity just to work. A skill that again already has counters lol. Hard counters by the way not even soft like say a gap closer to streak but actual hard easily available counters that nullify the skill. nahhhhhhh

Bushido2513

Dekrypted wrote: »

[

Adding a ramping cost increase to purge as an equivalent to a ramping cost increase on cloak is just nonsense. Cloak is an escape ability. A ramping cost increase on purge would more than screw up stamplar. It would erase the ability off the bar.

I never said add a ramp cost. I was illustrating a skill that gets used equally by different variants of the class and how that's not the same for nb and its variants.

Dekrypted wrote: »

If you're a bomber or ganker, you're probably also stage 4 vamp. Now I don't think I need to break this down, but in the tutorial, they explain stealth mechanics and that it's possible to enter stealth without an ability or potion. Gankers and bombers use this core mechanic all the time.

You gave an example that effects the playstyles differently saying it doesn't. Brawlers don't cloak if at all or atleast not to the same degree that a ganker or bomber does and a competent ganker or bomber has everything they need to cloak enough, or simply sprint as a stage 4 vampire long enough to enter invis prior to achieving their desired goal.

I didn't use stage 4 and I have plenty of clips of bombing people. Being stage 4 hasn't really been required on a bomb or gank build and honestly just cost more resources for something in my case that I didn't even need. So if you like stage 4 then more power to you, I didn't need it or like it for bombing.

System_Data

FoJul wrote: »

Brawler don't spam cloak... Adding a ramping cost, (meaning each time you cast the ability it cost more on the next cast and the next, similar to roll dodge, and streak)

Cloak is not the same as streak and roll dodge. Sure, the results may be similar, but they don't operate the same so why treat them the same.
Seriously, you wouldn't care about cloak if Incapacitating Strike and Merciless Resolve weren't so hard hitting. Maybe ZOS should take notes and nerf those skills and work on improving NBs pressure game instead.
Next thing you know, people are going to ask for ramping costs on healing abilities.

In the MMOs i've played, no stealth class has had the ability to do the amount of damage that Nightblades do in such a short amount of seconds. They mostly work by laying pressure on the opponent and then going in for the kill.

FoJul wrote: »

In conclusion, Nightblade is the only class that has a *ESCAPE ALL VISIBILITY AND TARGET SEEKING* ...

No clue why projectiles still follow you as you streak away unlike dodge. Maybe ZOS could fix that as well.
I mean, DK is the only class that return resources when you ult and other classes have something unique to them as well.

Tyrant_Tim

How do we go from talking about ramping costs for Cloak, to ramping costs to Extended Ritual?

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Change that 5 to all negative effects and we can start talking about a ramp.

If the idea is redirection, throw some shade at perma-blocking. There is no reason why a player should be able to block forever, blockcasting burst heals or spammables… adding a “Fatigue” ramp to block cost, or an outright removal of blockcasting in general would be a great change.

Tommy_The_Gun

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Cloak does not deny any damage type. You always take damage. If you have a DOT on you - you will take that damage. Sure, you will be invisible, but the DOT will be ticking on you. If you will stand on AOE then you gonna receive damage too. The only potential "damage negation" is that when you are invisible you can not be targeted by additional single target abilities (if the server is not laggy that is). Also, any direct damage received cancels cloak (removes it), so very often you don't even need dedicated detection stuff as AOE direct damage abilities will pull players out of invisibility.

I have also mentioned that "additional" things can not target you if you are invisible - but attacks made against you "before" you were invisible are very likely to land and if those attacks are Direct Damage - those attacks gonna pull NBs out of cloak. Even something as simple as bow LA pew-pew spam or even LA done on melee range. That is why NBs initially "spam" cloak. To force the laggy server to register their invisibility is active.

Bushido2513

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

How do we go from talking about ramping costs for Cloak, to ramping costs to Extended Ritual?

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Change that 5 to all negative effects and we can start talking about a ramp.

If the idea is redirection, throw some shade at perma-blocking. There is no reason why a player should be able to block forever, blockcasting burst heals or spammables… adding a “Fatigue” ramp to block cost, or an outright removal of blockcasting in general would be a great change.

You're missing the point. It's not about the function of the skill but how changing the cost of the skill affects the different playstyles. There isn't a build to my knowledge that requires more or less use of purge to work.

Again I'm not talking about do players want to be able to spam it or how bad it would be if purge had a ramp on it.

I'm saying that how often the player can cast a purge is not really better or worse depending on their playstyle whereas on NB depending on what playstyle you're using you may need more access or less access to cloak to be viable.

So that's where a one size fits all ramp cost doesn't work.

Tyrant_Tim

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Cloak does not deny any damage type. You always take damage. If you have a DOT on you - you will take that damage. Sure, you will be invisible, but the DOT will be ticking on you. If you will stand on AOE then you gonna receive damage too. The only potential "damage negation" is that when you are invisible you can not be targeted by additional single target abilities (if the server is not laggy that is). Also, any direct damage received cancels cloak (removes it), so very often you don't even need dedicated detection stuff as AOE direct damage abilities will pull players out of invisibility.

I have also mentioned that "additional" things can not target you if you are invisible - but attacks made against you "before" you were invisible are very likely to land and if those attacks are Direct Damage - those attacks gonna pull NBs out of cloak. Even something as simple as bow LA pew-pew spam or even LA done on melee range. That is why NBs initially "spam" cloak. To force the laggy server to register their invisibility is active.

You know what I meant, don’t play willfully ignorant. You can’t target a cloaked player with any single target skill, there are only two classes with spammables that have cleave.

Tyrant_Tim

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

How do we go from talking about ramping costs for Cloak, to ramping costs to Extended Ritual?

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Change that 5 to all negative effects and we can start talking about a ramp.

If the idea is redirection, throw some shade at perma-blocking. There is no reason why a player should be able to block forever, blockcasting burst heals or spammables… adding a “Fatigue” ramp to block cost, or an outright removal of blockcasting in general would be a great change.

You're missing the point. It's not about the function of the skill but how changing the cost of the skill affects the different playstyles. There isn't a build to my knowledge that requires more or less use of purge to work.

Again I'm not talking about do players want to be able to spam it or how bad it would be if purge had a ramp on it.

I'm saying that how often the player can cast a purge is not really better or worse depending on their playstyle whereas on NB depending on what playstyle you're using you may need more access or less access to cloak to be viable.

So that's where a one size fits all ramp cost doesn't work.

How so? When you get on any decent Templar build you end up having to run an entire backbar dedicated to defensive skills, then camo hunter and forward momentum on your front bar, that’s 7 of your 10 skills… whereas on Nightblade it’s okay to have Cloak and Vigor, maybe Healthy Offering?

Why would it be such a demanding request to ask that Shade become a necessary part of the kit when building around Cloak? Because that’s what people are saying, and that’s what a ramp would do for those same playstyles you mentioned. For your semi-experienced player, they are going to roll dodge one or two times with their 5-7 Well-Fitted and go back to their cloak, by resetting their ramp.

The skill is too heavily loaded, and it’s been that way, since launch, which is why it’s received more iterations than anything else.

Amottica

StaticWave wrote: »

NB mains in this thread still hard-focused on arguing about Cloak having counters, when many people pointed out the bigger opportunity cost for using Cloak counters compared to Streak counters.

I dueled a NB using Cloak and Shadow Image earlier today on my stamsorc. These were the sacrifices I had to make:

1) Sacrificed Major Prophecy to use a detect potion since I don’t have bar space for Camo Hunter/Mage Light

2) Sacrificed an offensive ability for Camo Hunter/Mage Light that practically has no other use outside of revealing NB and giving Major Prophecy because I'm already getting Minor Berserk from Dark Deal.

All of that effort and the NB could still roll 3x in a row, then ported back to his Shadow Image and resumed cloaking.

You know what I do when I encounter a Streaking Sorc? I just run up to them if I’m melee, or ignore their Streak if I’m ranged. I don’t even need to put effort into countering Streak users. I simply play the game as normal lol.

It’s impossible to talk sense to NB mains on the forums. A simple comparison will easily tell why Cloak needs to be addressed, but that isn’t going to happen anytime soon

.

Because it is an accurate statement that there are counters to cloak and it is proven to be so every day by experienced players. It is inaccurate to suggest it is NB mains making such statements as I do not main an NB but merely figure out how to use the counters against NBs just as I figured out how to create a successful build.

Bushido2513

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

How so? When you get on any decent Templar build you end up having to run an entire backbar dedicated to defensive skills, then camo hunter and forward momentum on your front bar, that’s 7 of your 10 skills… whereas on Nightblade it’s okay to have Cloak and Vigor, maybe Healthy Offering?

Why would it be such a demanding request to ask that Shade become a necessary part of the kit when building around Cloak? Because that’s what people are saying, and that’s what a ramp would do for those same playstyles you mentioned. For your semi-experienced player, they are going to roll dodge one or two times with their 5-7 Well-Fitted and go back to their cloak, by resetting their ramp.

The skill is too heavily loaded, and it’s been that way, since launch, which is why it’s received more iterations than anything else.

Okay so what happens to a bomber or ganker when you make one of their primary movement tools cost intensive? The either can't move around as well or basically have to nerf the build in a way that a brawler wouldn't have to. So yeah a brawler wouldn't really likely sweat this change as much but as a bomber, ganker, or casual just moving around it's going to be more punishing.

I used to believe the change should happen until I went back and watched a few of my own gank or just cloak usage heavy builds and I realized that this change would have made the build much harder to enjoy.

Now here's the thing, most would counter saying yeah I want to spam cloak so I can just be op but that wasn't the case. In all my builds for bombers and gankers if I was discovered by any common reveal it was likely that I might die if I didn't correctly deal damage or just be lucky enough to somehow escape range. I'm saying that it was a fair deal in that regard.

Also some of my cloaks were just to make sure I was hidden while people moved past me or while a dot was on me but again if anyone broke my cloak I was squish and would likely die, so that seems fair.

Again this is compared to a brawler who either doesn't need as many cloaks or doesn't use cloak at all and is still strong with no adjustments needed.


A change that more harshly impacts 2 playstyles and doesn't really do much to another just doesn't seem like a great change.

Jierdanit

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Cloak does not deny any damage type. You always take damage. If you have a DOT on you - you will take that damage. Sure, you will be invisible, but the DOT will be ticking on you. If you will stand on AOE then you gonna receive damage too. The only potential "damage negation" is that when you are invisible you can not be targeted by additional single target abilities (if the server is not laggy that is). Also, any direct damage received cancels cloak (removes it), so very often you don't even need dedicated detection stuff as AOE direct damage abilities will pull players out of invisibility.

I have also mentioned that "additional" things can not target you if you are invisible - but attacks made against you "before" you were invisible are very likely to land and if those attacks are Direct Damage - those attacks gonna pull NBs out of cloak. Even something as simple as bow LA pew-pew spam or even LA done on melee range. That is why NBs initially "spam" cloak. To force the laggy server to register their invisibility is active.

You know what I meant, don’t play willfully ignorant. You can’t target a cloaked player with any single target skill, there are only two classes with spammables that have cleave.

No point in arguing with them.

It's just people denying that the single best defensive skill in the game is fine so they don't lose their crutch.

They will never agree with what you say, cause it makes the game harder for them.

Bushido2513

Jierdanit wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Cloak does not deny any damage type. You always take damage. If you have a DOT on you - you will take that damage. Sure, you will be invisible, but the DOT will be ticking on you. If you will stand on AOE then you gonna receive damage too. The only potential "damage negation" is that when you are invisible you can not be targeted by additional single target abilities (if the server is not laggy that is). Also, any direct damage received cancels cloak (removes it), so very often you don't even need dedicated detection stuff as AOE direct damage abilities will pull players out of invisibility.

I have also mentioned that "additional" things can not target you if you are invisible - but attacks made against you "before" you were invisible are very likely to land and if those attacks are Direct Damage - those attacks gonna pull NBs out of cloak. Even something as simple as bow LA pew-pew spam or even LA done on melee range. That is why NBs initially "spam" cloak. To force the laggy server to register their invisibility is active.

You know what I meant, don’t play willfully ignorant. You can’t target a cloaked player with any single target skill, there are only two classes with spammables that have cleave.

No point in arguing with them.

It's just people denying that the single best defensive skill in the game is fine so they don't lose their crutch.

They will never agree with what you say, cause it makes the game harder for them.

Eh best defensive skill in the game is a reach. I mean to me a skill that can easily be negated can't be all that strong. Now yes if nobody uses counters you can seem like an unkillable trickster but that's a bit of a choice more than anything.

Jierdanit

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Cloak does not deny any damage type. You always take damage. If you have a DOT on you - you will take that damage. Sure, you will be invisible, but the DOT will be ticking on you. If you will stand on AOE then you gonna receive damage too. The only potential "damage negation" is that when you are invisible you can not be targeted by additional single target abilities (if the server is not laggy that is). Also, any direct damage received cancels cloak (removes it), so very often you don't even need dedicated detection stuff as AOE direct damage abilities will pull players out of invisibility.

I have also mentioned that "additional" things can not target you if you are invisible - but attacks made against you "before" you were invisible are very likely to land and if those attacks are Direct Damage - those attacks gonna pull NBs out of cloak. Even something as simple as bow LA pew-pew spam or even LA done on melee range. That is why NBs initially "spam" cloak. To force the laggy server to register their invisibility is active.

You know what I meant, don’t play willfully ignorant. You can’t target a cloaked player with any single target skill, there are only two classes with spammables that have cleave.

No point in arguing with them.

It's just people denying that the single best defensive skill in the game is fine so they don't lose their crutch.

They will never agree with what you say, cause it makes the game harder for them.

Eh best defensive skill in the game is a reach. I mean to me a skill that can easily be negated can't be all that strong. Now yes if nobody uses counters you can seem like an unkillable trickster but that's a bit of a choice more than anything.

The fact that it is the only skill in the game that has specific skills in place basically just to counter it tells you enough about how strong it is.

Tyrant_Tim

@Bushido2513, what about every other class running a bomber or ganker? Just yesterday my friend hit a 35k Spec Bow on a player at range, from Cloak.

Name one other class capable of that, you know other classes exist right?

Nightblade has the most major and minor buffs out of every class, and a guaranteed Major Resolve without a skill slot, how do you propose a Warden bomber pulls it off without cloak, and with less bar space?

Major Evasion and speed?

I digress, this is the third time I’ve jumped into this thread with months in between, and it’s still the same nonsense…

You can’t steal abilities from other classes, like Breath of Life and screech about Cloak being balanced, gatekeeping an enjoyable experience from others.

It doesn’t sail well, and it never will.

FoJul

Jierdanit wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Cloak does not deny any damage type. You always take damage. If you have a DOT on you - you will take that damage. Sure, you will be invisible, but the DOT will be ticking on you. If you will stand on AOE then you gonna receive damage too. The only potential "damage negation" is that when you are invisible you can not be targeted by additional single target abilities (if the server is not laggy that is). Also, any direct damage received cancels cloak (removes it), so very often you don't even need dedicated detection stuff as AOE direct damage abilities will pull players out of invisibility.

I have also mentioned that "additional" things can not target you if you are invisible - but attacks made against you "before" you were invisible are very likely to land and if those attacks are Direct Damage - those attacks gonna pull NBs out of cloak. Even something as simple as bow LA pew-pew spam or even LA done on melee range. That is why NBs initially "spam" cloak. To force the laggy server to register their invisibility is active.

You know what I meant, don’t play willfully ignorant. You can’t target a cloaked player with any single target skill, there are only two classes with spammables that have cleave.

No point in arguing with them.

It's just people denying that the single best defensive skill in the game is fine so they don't lose their crutch.

They will never agree with what you say, cause it makes the game harder for them.

I'm a nightblade main. I can say that 2 things need fixed for sure. That's the tooltip on Merciless, and a fix to cloak. The ramping cost would definetely work.

Bushido2513

Jierdanit wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Cloak does not deny any damage type. You always take damage. If you have a DOT on you - you will take that damage. Sure, you will be invisible, but the DOT will be ticking on you. If you will stand on AOE then you gonna receive damage too. The only potential "damage negation" is that when you are invisible you can not be targeted by additional single target abilities (if the server is not laggy that is). Also, any direct damage received cancels cloak (removes it), so very often you don't even need dedicated detection stuff as AOE direct damage abilities will pull players out of invisibility.

I have also mentioned that "additional" things can not target you if you are invisible - but attacks made against you "before" you were invisible are very likely to land and if those attacks are Direct Damage - those attacks gonna pull NBs out of cloak. Even something as simple as bow LA pew-pew spam or even LA done on melee range. That is why NBs initially "spam" cloak. To force the laggy server to register their invisibility is active.

You know what I meant, don’t play willfully ignorant. You can’t target a cloaked player with any single target skill, there are only two classes with spammables that have cleave.

No point in arguing with them.

It's just people denying that the single best defensive skill in the game is fine so they don't lose their crutch.

They will never agree with what you say, cause it makes the game harder for them.

Eh best defensive skill in the game is a reach. I mean to me a skill that can easily be negated can't be all that strong. Now yes if nobody uses counters you can seem like an unkillable trickster but that's a bit of a choice more than anything.

The fact that it is the only skill in the game that has specific skills in place basically just to counter it tells you enough about how strong it is.

It tells me that only one class has this skill and that the skill needed a counter which is logical but that doesn't really indicate power level in a meaningful way.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but just saying that doesn't seem to make much of a case on its own.

For instance why is a brawler blade with shade in a tower probably just as dangerous and elusive?

Bushido2513

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Bushido2513, what about every other class running a bomber or ganker? Just yesterday my friend hit a 35k Spec Bow on a player at range, from Cloak.

Name one other class capable of that, you know other classes exist right?

Nightblade has the most major and minor buffs out of every class, and a guaranteed Major Resolve without a skill slot, how do you propose a Warden bomber pulls it off without cloak, and with less bar space?

Major Evasion and speed?

I digress, this is the third time I’ve jumped into this thread with months in between, and it’s still the same nonsense…

You can’t steal abilities from other classes, like Breath of Life and screech about Cloak being balanced, gatekeeping an enjoyable experience from others.

It doesn’t sail well, and it never will.

Spec Bow tooltip is too high, most agree on that. But this could have been done without stealth by a brawler blade so this isn't anything too interesting.

Also to get hit by a 35k bow, was the other player's build perhaps made of cookie dough? I mean the point about bow is valid but we all know numbers can be inflated by a soft target.

Again I do agree that nb has too much all in one package but ramping cloak cost isn't a good all around approach.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Cloak does not deny any damage type. You always take damage. If you have a DOT on you - you will take that damage. Sure, you will be invisible, but the DOT will be ticking on you. If you will stand on AOE then you gonna receive damage too. The only potential "damage negation" is that when you are invisible you can not be targeted by additional single target abilities (if the server is not laggy that is). Also, any direct damage received cancels cloak (removes it), so very often you don't even need dedicated detection stuff as AOE direct damage abilities will pull players out of invisibility.

I have also mentioned that "additional" things can not target you if you are invisible - but attacks made against you "before" you were invisible are very likely to land and if those attacks are Direct Damage - those attacks gonna pull NBs out of cloak. Even something as simple as bow LA pew-pew spam or even LA done on melee range. That is why NBs initially "spam" cloak. To force the laggy server to register their invisibility is active.

You know what I meant, don’t play willfully ignorant. You can’t target a cloaked player with any single target skill, there are only two classes with spammables that have cleave.

No point in arguing with them.

It's just people denying that the single best defensive skill in the game is fine so they don't lose their crutch.

They will never agree with what you say, cause it makes the game harder for them.

I'm a nightblade main. I can say that 2 things need fixed for sure. That's the tooltip on Merciless, and a fix to cloak. The ramping cost would definetely work.

Ok so what type of build / playstyle do you main?

Turtle_Bot

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

How so? When you get on any decent Templar build you end up having to run an entire backbar dedicated to defensive skills, then camo hunter and forward momentum on your front bar, that’s 7 of your 10 skills… whereas on Nightblade it’s okay to have Cloak and Vigor, maybe Healthy Offering?

Why would it be such a demanding request to ask that Shade become a necessary part of the kit when building around Cloak? Because that’s what people are saying, and that’s what a ramp would do for those same playstyles you mentioned. For your semi-experienced player, they are going to roll dodge one or two times with their 5-7 Well-Fitted and go back to their cloak, by resetting their ramp.

The skill is too heavily loaded, and it’s been that way, since launch, which is why it’s received more iterations than anything else.

Okay so what happens to a bomber or ganker when you make one of their primary movement tools cost intensive? The either can't move around as well or basically have to nerf the build in a way that a brawler wouldn't have to. So yeah a brawler wouldn't really likely sweat this change as much but as a bomber, ganker, or casual just moving around it's going to be more punishing.

I used to believe the change should happen until I went back and watched a few of my own gank or just cloak usage heavy builds and I realized that this change would have made the build much harder to enjoy.

Now here's the thing, most would counter saying yeah I want to spam cloak so I can just be op but that wasn't the case. In all my builds for bombers and gankers if I was discovered by any common reveal it was likely that I might die if I didn't correctly deal damage or just be lucky enough to somehow escape range. I'm saying that it was a fair deal in that regard.

Also some of my cloaks were just to make sure I was hidden while people moved past me or while a dot was on me but again if anyone broke my cloak I was squish and would likely die, so that seems fair.

Again this is compared to a brawler who either doesn't need as many cloaks or doesn't use cloak at all and is still strong with no adjustments needed.


A change that more harshly impacts 2 playstyles and doesn't really do much to another just doesn't seem like a great change.

I'm curious as to which patch your NB content was from that you are referring back to for this information.

Because unless its from the past 9-15 months, it should be taken with a large grain of salt due to how much cloak and NB has changed over that time frame.

When I was not as good (years ago) I used to frequently run my NB (stamblade in particular) in cyro over the years when I wanted a break from my sorc, or DK (or they were in a bad spot) and I can tell you from experience, that thanks to the completely overtuned buffs ZOS gave NBs over the past 15 months, cloak is currently much more of a balance issue than it has ever been in the past outside of specifically when it used to negate ALL damage taken when cast.

The other issue with it on top of the class itself being really strong, is thanks to the free sustain in the game currently with food like orzorga's, CP's, popular mundus, and the free damage thanks to changes enabling the additional free sustain without losing damage or healing, it is far easier to spam cloak near indefinitely now than it ever has been in the past without giving up anything to do so.

To give an example, I did a test last patch between cloak and mist form on my magblade.
- Cloak was able to be spammed (and I mean spammed every GCD) and I was able to get between 8 and 11 casts of it in combat before I couldn't cast it anymore (not completely tapped out, but not enough mag to recast it)
- Mist form (which is nearly 25% cheaper at base) I was able to cast it 5 times (6 if I timed it perfectly by giving a couple seconds between each cast to regen a small bit of mag) before I was completely tapped (and I mean literally 0% mag with that 6th cast being a perfectly timed split second between casting it with the ramped cost and that ramping cost dropping for that cast).
If I let cloaks duration run for between 3-4 seconds instead of spamming it every GCD, I was able to sustain it nearly infinitely (practically speaking it was infinitely sustainable).
Even out of combat, mist form was only slightly more reliable for that 6th cast while cloak was sustainable indefinitely.

This is why if NB as a whole isn't going to be toned down in PvP (and by a significant amount) cloak needs a ramping cost. You need to remember, when you are cloaked going up to someone to gank/bomb them, you are extremely likely to not be in combat yet unless you have attempted to gank them already or just completely messed everything up, so you have the additional out of combat bonus recovery that is double or triple your in combat recovery values (typically sits around 4k+ recovery out of combat). Stealth is also essentially invisibility when people don't know there's a NB around since they won't have detect pots/skills up yet, so unless a NB is overstaying their welcome (this is a skill/l2p issue, especially with positional desync heavily favoring NB and stealth in general), you don't need to spam invis to get around.
FYI, in IC, you don't need to spam it either and thanks to invis you won't be in combat from NPCs so you still have the additional out of combat recoveries, even with all the NPCs around unless you mess up and run into the bosses that have the reveal radius. The NPCs are also typically spread out enough to give you breathing room when stealthed to let invis run out for a second or 2 and still not be detected, which is more than enough to remove the ramping cost to make it a non-issue even in IC.
I know this because I have done this countless times on my multiple NBs already to get around IC to do quests, grab skyshards, fish etc, even my stamblade that had an incomplete build had no trouble remaining cloaked or stealthed the entire time and if I was ever revealed, kiting through buildings was more than enough to give time for invis to be ready again (or even abuse shade for that teleport between vertical levels and through walls that is essentially a free port out without going through all the menus).

A ramping cost on cloak is not going to make a difference to those playstyles unless the players using those playstyles deliberately go out of their way to make it an issue. Especially considering the free sustain available currently and that NB has the tools now that it doesn't need to crutch on cloak for defense.