Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak

ShadowProc · July 2023

SandandStars wrote: »

First I would like to acknowledge the NBs who agreed that Cloak would be more balanced with a ramping cost. Everybody naturally wants to defend their main class, so hats off to you for being honest.

Second: Look at the number of replies and detailed arguments this thread has generated.

I’ve only been on these forums since May of this year, but in that time I’ve seen more NB mains arguing passionately to defend their class than any other. Which is kind of interesting, since they seem to be either #2 or #1 in pvp (when played by skilled players) and continue to get good buffs.

Draw what conclusions from this you will.

Conclusions from what exactly? A perceived summary of the thread? Lol.

StaticWave · July 2023

Yea I’m eager to see the duel between @ShadowProc and @Alchimiste1.

Prove your argument like how @Tyrant_Tim and @Mayrael did

StaticWave · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'll just repeat this again. There is no rule that says a NB using Cloak is squishy. This is what many brawler blades will be using next patch:

Tooltip of Concealed and Bow:

All of these offensive stats while being tanky and having 1 proc set. NB is NOT squishy if you build right. Now add Cloak to that and tell me if it's "easy" killing any decent NB with a good build.

I know we are not here to discuss builds, but there are some mistakes in this build that "top tier Nightblades" should not make.

First lets imagine you can sustain with that recovery.
You have all points in stamina on a magblade, so not taking advantege of Magicka Flood passive.
Using way of fire on a burst class like NB is a misplay, especially if you can't keep the uptime. I suggest a set like Red Mountain if you want proc damage.
Your hp is Too low for a Brawlerblade.
Why using Resilience cp with Rallying Cry and 4 Pieces of impen!? there are bigger diminishing returns if you stack one type of mitigation.

Any nightblade with that tooltip and tankiness might not be an easy kill but also wont be dangerous with Cloak, also if they are not running Major Expedition like you using Cloak will be only a waste of mag for them. tho you can still kill bad players with it, but tbh you wont even need a decent build to kill them anyway.

Lmao so you are telling the top tier NBs running this build that they shouldn’t run it? Okay lol

Show me what you are running

[snip]

1) I know the class from past experience
2) I play with top tier NBs

I can always ask them for opinion, and quite frankly I trust them more than the majority of NB mains on the forums. Most of them also agree that Cloak needs a ramping cost, btw.

I also will trust them more too. I would trust your opinion more also if you didn't ask for so many nerfs and made more rationale arguments. I know you know the game but your being biased in this case clearly. I don't want to beat a dead horse but I know you know the counters if you duel that much so if you choose not to use them that's on you.

But they're available and function. There's no arguing that. You choose not to

Please tell me why there is ramping cost on Streak but not on Cloak.

Asked and answered. Cloak breaks on things it's not suppose to. Streak does not.

And no, the burden off proof is on you to prove a nerf, which like your other threads didn't happen.

1) Streak doesn’t work on uneven terrain
2) Streak doesn’t teleport you if you get stunned right as you hit the ability
3) Sprinting is more effective than Streak

I don’t think you know how Streak works as well as you might think. [snip]

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

warm_blanket · July 2023

Surprising this thread is still going, doesn't seem like it's been very productive either.

Cloak should have had a ramping cost from the beginning, but regardless that's not really going to do much to NB now since it has so much else going for it.

If the class is supposed to have a strong "stealth" toolkit and be able to teleport around it can't also have high damage and healing. Probably the damage won't be touched due to pve, but at least consider cutting back on the healing.

There has to be a tradeoff somewhere.

StaticWave · July 2023

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Also @Turtle_Bot @Bushido2513, let’s end it here. This guy ShadowProc just said Sorc is in the same tier as DK, Warden, and NB and I’m not including it because I’m biased…

I can literally show NB mains here the massive stat difference between Sorc and other classes using THE SAME BUILD, and even clips of them in real fights, but there is no point. They claim I’m biased yet they are just as biased as their claim of me.

Forget it, let them have their buffs, then everyone of us should hop on NB and dominate, if we still play.

Let me also end it like this if you are willing to listen.
First thing, comparing two different class on the same build is not a good idea, it's easier to explain with an example. you need less sustain for Sorc so if you simply put the same build on Blade you will end up with more stats on paper but practically you need to give that up for more sustain to make that build functional in a real situation.

throughout my post here I tried to explain that adding ramping cost to Cloak like Streak is a nerf but not a solution, it will do little to nothing about gankers either. gankers are generaly squishy and they die if you break their cloak once or twice, problem is what if you dont know they are around or like you said before what if they are fake running to hit you with an incap combo? then you realise you are incapped when you are already on the ground. Ramping cost wont save you there.

The thing with Cloak or Strealth in general is it breaks when your damage lands and thats the problem, which also gets worse when you are against ranged blades, like you get snipped and you realise that when the attacker might already be in stealth. Solution is that stealth should break when you cast or start channeling an ability.
maybe you can add a little extra like when stealth breaks with damage next one withing X seconds cost X% more to reward breaking their Cloak, but dropping Streaks penalty on Cloak is simply wont fix your problem it might just push blades toward more magicka based builds and thats it.

Have you actually tried playing a Sorc with less sustain? Try it. You’ll see how bad it is.

Going low sustain on Sorc is only reserved for a very experienced stamsorc main and only works in specific scenarios. The class literally has no healing and relies on dodging to survive. Guess what dodging requires? Lots of stam recovery.

Stamsorc needs MORE sustain than NB if you intend to play it at a high level. Dark Deal spamming isn’t going to cut it.

You think you’re going to give up more dmg on a NB? Please. Even if you give up 2 damage glyphs, you will still have more stats than my stamsorc. I have done enough comparison on Editor to make this claim.

If you don’t think stealth should have a ramping cost, then it’s fair to ask for more passive stealth detection (not Evil Hunter or potions). I don’t see why Streak is being passively countered by just moving fast (which requires basically zero investment with 5 Medium and Celerity CP), but Cloak requires slotting a specific skill/potion to counter it.

Bushido2513 · July 2023

Kaysha wrote: »

That´s of course a no brainer. But everone has access to the same speed tools. They are not exactly what you might call a counter to streak in this conversation.

I mean, I streak and streak and someone just runs up to me. My streaks are countered .

ShadowProc · July 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Kaysha wrote: »

That´s of course a no brainer. But everone has access to the same speed tools. They are not exactly what you might call a counter to streak in this conversation.

I mean, I streak and streak and someone just runs up to me. My streaks are countered .

Do you know what kiting is? Create separation and turn and fight. Or maintain resources and continue separation. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Bushido2513 · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Kaysha wrote: »

and beside from that...where´s the counter to double streak? noone uses only one streak to get away. so the argument of saying gap closers are the counter to streak is nonexistent

Just gotta comment because this kind of bad information just shouldn't be spread.

Any class with two swift and celerity will catch up to you. Everyone has access to major expedition. They don't even need a gap closer. And yeah you can say this is built into speed but generally nb and dk have enough damage that they can sacrifice the traits and star.

I'm not even making this up and @StaticWave even posted a video. Movement speed is just that free right now.

Ok and before anyone says it no I'm not saying streak is useless. I'm saying that I personally have been chased down by others with good movement speed even using double streaks.

Also gap closers generally work well and have enough time to lock on before the second streak. Again I've been chased with gap closer spam so I'm not just saying this.

Yours is the misinformation. 2 streaks let's them reset the failed burst. Then if they good the turn and fight. Or if they good they continue to streak away the manage their resources with exchange and get away. Or if they bad they run our of resources they die

Yeah this isn't a for sure thing. If you are good with break free or have the cp slotted you can just break and run right back to them and keep fighting or if you have cc immunity, etc

I've done a fair bit of outnumbered fighting and being chased. Players of similar skill to me know how to maintain pressure and somewhat nullify my streaks or ability to counter. I'm not saying they nuke me but just that a player that's as good or better won't be thrown off by a double streak. I mean geez sometimes I wish it was that easy in the higher tiers.

So back before there was so much free speed it was more like what you are saying. I used to dread dueling sorcs and some people didn't enjoy dueling me because it was just harder to catch up and keep the pressure up.

These days a nb or dk will just run up to you and keep hitting like a truck or break free and just heal up. Again it's not always like I'm getting slaughtered but it's pretty rough when playing against similarly skilled opponents. Streak just isn't what it used to be.

StaticWave · July 2023

It’s pretty funny how all these NB mains are so quick to say Cloak gets countered easily but the moment a Sorc main says the same thing about Streak being countered easily, they are also quick to say it’s a l2p issue.

I’m done with this thread for real lmao. The bias is actually insane with NB mains. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

StaticWave · July 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@ShadowProc I’m ready to fight any time, I’ll even use the build static posted since no good nbs would use it

If you want to duel I think there is a place for that. Not sure how you are adding value to the discussion. It's like in pvp when players are asking me for 1v1s when they die. I tell them to meet me in Stormhaven. I will be right there.

So Meet me in Stormhaven. I will be right there. I promise

You said I don't play nb, why not show me how a season nb expert does against me on a build that's apparently not good?
I'll even switch out a skill for invis cloak, you can run detect pots or whatever else you want, and I won't. Show me how effective those invis pots are. After all, you'll have an "I win button" and I wont.

that should be a good test right there don't you think ?

I'm in stormhaven waiting.

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip] @Alchimiste1 is one of the seasoned PvPers on PC NA, and also one of the best duelers currently. I've fought his NB many times and he runs a build similar to what I posted on this thread.

I think he can beat the majority of NB mains here, with or without Cloak lol. It's pretty easy to crutch on Cloak for survivability, but it's a lot harder to fight without Cloak, especially against pressure classes. People actually have to learn how to play defense. It shouldn't be a problem though with how many defensive buffs NB recently got.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

ShadowProc · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

It’s pretty funny how all these NB mains are so quick to say Cloak gets countered easily but the moment a Sorc main says the same thing about Streak being countered easily, they are also quick to say it’s a l2p issue.

I’m done with this thread for real lmao. The bias is actually insane with NB mains. [snip]

Bye. Look forward to the patch! See you guys in Stormhaven.

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave · July 2023

And for the record, anyone who thinks stamsorc can run lower regen than a NB either doesn't play the class or is a zergling.

Good luck 1vXing against the current meta builds with sub 1k regen. Good luck playing BG without gassing out. I dare anyone to prove me wrong right now with actual gameplay or duel me. Ebix will most likely dodge so he doesn't count.

ebix_ · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

And for the record, anyone who thinks stamsorc can run lower regen than a NB either doesn't play the class or is a zergling.

Good luck 1vXing against the current meta builds with sub 1k regen. Good luck playing BG without gassing out. I dare anyone to prove me wrong right now with actual gameplay or duel me. Ebix will most likely dodge so he doesn't count.

When did I ever said sub 1k regen? I said I can sustain with less recovery on sorc.
you are so Egotastic and Biased that can't even see what I'm trying to say.
here I go explaining again, but what's the point of me explaining if you wont listen?

unlike you I test things beyond the number comparisons on editor site.
so the recovery numbers are tested in real scenarios. And Sorc is able to sustain with less recovery in same situations thanks to Dark Deal if you believe it or not.
you can also say that Oh look nb has more WD, and ignore the fact I run 3 procs with a set that also adds base dps to my numbers.

Even with proc sets I have more effective power on Sorc than my NB with Incap's 20% damage included. if I hit a good Thrive in Chaos (That I didnt include) the effective weapon power goes even higher and also thanks to Streak on top of All my movement speed I can easily run Sea Serpent.
Also I can add that my NB's Combo is easily dodgable or blockable but my Sorcs pressure goes through dodge and block, which is a big deal.

I dont know if I need to say this after all the explanation, But difference in Raw offensive stats is not always an accurate way to compare.

I would have also dueled you if I was in NA, But here is my offer, choose a player in EU that you trust in his skill and runs your setup and I will duel them is that okay with you?

StaticWave · July 2023

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And for the record, anyone who thinks stamsorc can run lower regen than a NB either doesn't play the class or is a zergling.

Good luck 1vXing against the current meta builds with sub 1k regen. Good luck playing BG without gassing out. I dare anyone to prove me wrong right now with actual gameplay or duel me. Ebix will most likely dodge so he doesn't count.

When did I ever said sub 1k regen? I said I can sustain with less recovery on sorc.
you are so Egotastic and Biased that can't even see what I'm trying to say.
here I go explaining again, but what's the point of me explaining if you wont listen?

unlike you I test things beyond the number comparisons on editor site.
so the recovery numbers are tested in real scenarios. And Sorc is able to sustain with less recovery in same situations thanks to Dark Deal if you believe it or not.
you can also say that Oh look nb has more WD, and ignore the fact I run 3 procs with a set that also adds base dps to my numbers.

Even with proc sets I have more effective power on Sorc than my NB with Incap's 20% damage included. if I hit a good Thrive in Chaos (That I didnt include) the effective weapon power goes even higher and also thanks to Streak on top of All my movement speed I can easily run Sea Serpent.
Also I can add that my NB's Combo is easily dodgable or blockable but my Sorcs pressure goes through dodge and block, which is a big deal.

I dont know if I need to say this after all the explanation, But difference in Raw offensive stats is not always an accurate way to compare.

I would have also dueled you if I was in NA, But here is my offer, choose a player in EU that you trust in his skill and runs your setup and I will duel them is that okay with you?

I already know you’re going to link a meta proctard build for Sorc, then a stat build for NB lmao. Talking about unfair comparison.

Show everyone the buffs you included too, and show the stats on the same build.

StaticWave · July 2023

What’s funny is you probably included Amplitude and Thrive In Chaos to get that weapon power, on a proc build vs a NB in a stat build and cheese the weapon power on that sorc build. Yet you don’t know that Amplitude is basically Concealed Weapon’s 10% dmg, but worse because it decreases the lower your target’s HP is.

Why don’t you actually make a fair comparison by using the same setup on both classes? NB can just as easily slot Thrive and get more weapon power. If you can’t do that, then I’ll make an actual fair comparison when I’m home

StaticWave · July 2023

Also how are you going to heal up by yourself in Sea Serpent? You don’t have any healing.

What’s going to happen is the moment you run into a decent player on a strong class, you’re going to maybe have a chance of killing him within 10s, then Major Berserk drops and you have no way to heal up with your skill setup to reproc Sea Serpent. Appetite isn’t going to save you, or Streak, or stacking DoTs.

You know what brawler NB can run? Sea Serpent. They have Major + Minor Expedition for that. Why don’t you show us the build with Sea Serpent on NB?

ebix_ · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

What’s funny is you probably included Amplitude and Thrive In Chaos to get that weapon power, on a proc build vs a NB in a stat build and cheese the weapon power on that sorc build. Yet you don’t know that Amplitude is basically Concealed Weapon’s 10% dmg, but worse because it decreases the lower your target’s HP is.

Why don’t you actually make a fair comparison by using the same setup on both classes? NB can just as easily slot Thrive and get more weapon power. If you can’t do that, then I’ll make an actual fair comparison when I’m home

Here:
you compare them for me.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=554513
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=557408

I already said I didnt include Thrive in Chaos but you didnt even read that did you ?
and if you think its a meta proctard its your problem, I linked you the two diffrent builds that I'm running.

Edit: Infused value on mythic is bugged on that site just change it to a different trait then back to infused to see the currect infused value again, on both builds.

ebix_ · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Also how are you going to heal up by yourself in Sea Serpent? You don’t have any healing.

What’s going to happen is the moment you run into a decent player on a strong class, you’re going to maybe have a chance of killing him within 10s, then Major Berserk drops and you have no way to heal up with your skill setup to reproc Sea Serpent. Appetite isn’t going to save you, or Streak, or stacking DoTs.

You know what brawler NB can run? Sea Serpent. They have Major + Minor Expedition for that. Why don’t you show us the build with Sea Serpent on NB?

There is alot of passive healing, Since you run lots of dots your surge and orc passive Procs on CD. There is also Appetite's passive healing which procs very fast with all your dots. its a hit and run build so you can easily avoid damage while your dots and procs eat away your enemy.
I also tested sea serpent , In BG and dueling its fine but in open gets you killed in many situations.there is a little damage that comes with Oferring and it just drops your health alittle and makes sea serpent not proc, not a big deal but I dont like it. also you have to run Path for more consistent Major Expedition uptime and I have to replace that with Cloak which then I lose 300WD from Vamp passives so not that much worth after all(in OpenWorld). Maybe next patch

who knows.

StaticWave · July 2023

@ebix_

Here, this is a standard stat build for brawlerblade:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=557440

17k weapon power with Major Minor Expedition and 3x Swift, 3.5k weapon power more than the version you posted. Less sustain and no Cloak though, but that's what brawlerblades are currently using. Let's say I make the sustain as close to yours as possible:

I still have 1.6k more weapon power than you.

You are using a meta build for Sorc, but you don't have these things:

1) Crystal Weapon/Crystal Frag for burst and offensive heal

2) Infused jewelries on a class with basically no offensive stat scaling heals. Doesn't matter if your weapon damage is 5k or 7k. Crit Surge/Dark Deal isn't going to change its tooltip off of that.

3) Double stacking Major Expedition instead of stacking Major + Minor Expedition and not using 3x Swift to alleviate the snare from SSC. You will be slowed to a stand still if you get into a fight against a DK or anyone using some form of snare.

4) Not using Pale Order on a DoT sorc to help healing, which is the biggest issue of stamsorc.

Here is what an actual functioning stamsorc build with those sets should look like:

Notice how the actual weapon power is 4k less than your version? You know why? Because it's actually a functioning build, tested and tried in multiple PvP scenarios. But let's assume I use SSC like your version. I would have to pump my HP up massively because Sorc still lacks healing and the only way to make it up is by increasing your HP pool and get more heals from Blood Magic passive. This is what the stats would look like:

Still 2k less than your version, but I can 100% guarantee you it will perform better than your version. Link to editor here: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?&id=557436

StaticWave · July 2023

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Also how are you going to heal up by yourself in Sea Serpent? You don’t have any healing.

What’s going to happen is the moment you run into a decent player on a strong class, you’re going to maybe have a chance of killing him within 10s, then Major Berserk drops and you have no way to heal up with your skill setup to reproc Sea Serpent. Appetite isn’t going to save you, or Streak, or stacking DoTs.

You know what brawler NB can run? Sea Serpent. They have Major + Minor Expedition for that. Why don’t you show us the build with Sea Serpent on NB?

There is alot of passive healing, Since you run lots of dots your surge and orc passive Procs on CD. There is also Appetite's passive healing which procs very fast with all your dots. its a hit and run build so you can easily avoid damage while your dots and procs eat away your enemy.
I also tested sea serpent , In BG and dueling its fine but in open gets you killed in many situations.there is a little damage that comes with Oferring and it just drops your health alittle and makes sea serpent not proc, not a big deal but I dont like it. also you have to run Path for more consistent Major Expedition uptime and I have to replace that with Cloak which then I lose 300WD from Vamp passives so not that much worth after all(in OpenWorld). Maybe next patch who knows.

Surge isn't going to provide you enough healing if you are fighting meta pressure builds on meta classes. Appetite is okay burst heal, but it's not enough.

The problem with this class is it has practically no decent burst heal other than Dark Deal, which is not even considered a true burst heal as it can't scale off offensive stats or max HP and has a channel that can be interrupted. Surge is strong when enough DoTs are going out, but the drawback is this heal falls off in effectiveness when you are forced to play defensive. The moment you Streak away to escape people, you aren't dealing damage with Hurricane or Quick Cloak, so Surge's proc chance gets reduced significantly.

The only 3 options to survive on this class are:

1) You stack as much damage as possible to pressure someone enough that they can't deal damage to you, which by proxy gives you survivability.

2) You build as much movement speed as possible and only engage when you have an ultimate, aka play a hit and run build.

3) You sacrifice damage to stack max HP to use Hardened Ward and Crystal Weapon for offensive healing through Blood Magic

I've tested all 3 options this patch and only option #1 and #3 work. You and most stamsorcs are currently using option #1 by stacking 3 proc sets. I'm currently using option #3 because I want to experiment off-meta builds. Regardless, you can't build full damage on this class because it still lacks healing.

StaticWave · July 2023

@ebix_

Correction: I forgot to remove Strike From The Shadows passive, so the Weapon Power should be slightly reduced, but it's still going to be higher.

ZOS_Icy · July 2023

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back-and-forth and non-constructive posts from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

ShadowProc · July 2023

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And for the record, anyone who thinks stamsorc can run lower regen than a NB either doesn't play the class or is a zergling.

Good luck 1vXing against the current meta builds with sub 1k regen. Good luck playing BG without gassing out. I dare anyone to prove me wrong right now with actual gameplay or duel me. Ebix will most likely dodge so he doesn't count.

When did I ever said sub 1k regen? I said I can sustain with less recovery on sorc.
you are so Egotastic and Biased that can't even see what I'm trying to say.
here I go explaining again, but what's the point of me explaining if you wont listen?

unlike you I test things beyond the number comparisons on editor site.
so the recovery numbers are tested in real scenarios. And Sorc is able to sustain with less recovery in same situations thanks to Dark Deal if you believe it or not.
you can also say that Oh look nb has more WD, and ignore the fact I run 3 procs with a set that also adds base dps to my numbers.

Even with proc sets I have more effective power on Sorc than my NB with Incap's 20% damage included. if I hit a good Thrive in Chaos (That I didnt include) the effective weapon power goes even higher and also thanks to Streak on top of All my movement speed I can easily run Sea Serpent.
Also I can add that my NB's Combo is easily dodgable or blockable but my Sorcs pressure goes through dodge and block, which is a big deal.

I dont know if I need to say this after all the explanation, But difference in Raw offensive stats is not always an accurate way to compare.

I would have also dueled you if I was in NA, But here is my offer, choose a player in EU that you trust in his skill and runs your setup and I will duel them is that okay with you?

Your explanations have been great. They don't want to actually read counters to their argument. They believe wha t they believe and nothing will change that.

Don't worry. Zos doesn't make balance changes on emotions. And I can't remember the last time they made changes based on the mob l
On these forums.

Can't wait for the buff! We'll deserved.

ShadowProc · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Also how are you going to heal up by yourself in Sea Serpent? You don’t have any healing.

What’s going to happen is the moment you run into a decent player on a strong class, you’re going to maybe have a chance of killing him within 10s, then Major Berserk drops and you have no way to heal up with your skill setup to reproc Sea Serpent. Appetite isn’t going to save you, or Streak, or stacking DoTs.

You know what brawler NB can run? Sea Serpent. They have Major + Minor Expedition for that. Why don’t you show us the build with Sea Serpent on NB?

There is alot of passive healing, Since you run lots of dots your surge and orc passive Procs on CD. There is also Appetite's passive healing which procs very fast with all your dots. its a hit and run build so you can easily avoid damage while your dots and procs eat away your enemy.
I also tested sea serpent , In BG and dueling its fine but in open gets you killed in many situations.there is a little damage that comes with Oferring and it just drops your health alittle and makes sea serpent not proc, not a big deal but I dont like it. also you have to run Path for more consistent Major Expedition uptime and I have to replace that with Cloak which then I lose 300WD from Vamp passives so not that much worth after all(in OpenWorld). Maybe next patch who knows.

Surge isn't going to provide you enough healing if you are fighting meta pressure builds on meta classes. Appetite is okay burst heal, but it's not enough.

The problem with this class is it has practically no decent burst heal other than Dark Deal, which is not even considered a true burst heal as it can't scale off offensive stats or max HP and has a channel that can be interrupted. Surge is strong when enough DoTs are going out, but the drawback is this heal falls off in effectiveness when you are forced to play defensive. The moment you Streak away to escape people, you aren't dealing damage with Hurricane or Quick Cloak, so Surge's proc chance gets reduced significantly.

The only 3 options to survive on this class are:

1) You stack as much damage as possible to pressure someone enough that they can't deal damage to you, which by proxy gives you survivability.

2) You build as much movement speed as possible and only engage when you have an ultimate, aka play a hit and run build.

3) You sacrifice damage to stack max HP to use Hardened Ward and Crystal Weapon for offensive healing through Blood Magic

I've tested all 3 options this patch and only option #1 and #3 work. You and most stamsorcs are currently using option #1 by stacking 3 proc sets. I'm currently using option #3 because I want to experiment off-meta builds. Regardless, you can't build full damage on this class because it still lacks healing.

Agree. This is a good post

ebix_ · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

@ebix_

Correction: I forgot to remove Strike From The Shadows passive, so the Weapon Power should be slightly reduced, but it's still going to be higher.

I saw your version of builds and I see we have different ideas that suit our playstyles and there is nothing wrong with that.
there is always a trade, and on sorc I traided more healing to have more offense.
this used to be the mag blade build I was running:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?&id=557448

I know the numbers are very tempting but in real situations it didnt work as good as my current one. and its my playstyle, some one might have a better time using this build over other one.

its also partialy because of Cloaks offensive capability which I mentioned before, Channeling time first introduced to give a chance to react to a big damage abilities but since the channeling part happens in stealth you ignore that downside, most common with Snipe and Incap. its a huge difference if you can see a full damage ganker starts to incap you rather than notice it when you are already flat on the floor.
This is the biggest problem with Cloak imo and as long as this is not addressed adding ramping cost to cloak will only serve as a nerf not a solution.
if they nerf Cloak with ramping cost this problem will never be fixed. All i've been asking is for you to see beyond the savagery buff or Cloak spammers and fix this problem first.

StaticWave · July 2023

I will also admit that stamsorc can be very strong without needing a proc build. This is what I'm currently using on the live server and, in my opinion, is the best stat build for stamsorc right now:

Stacking 38.6k HP to increase Hardened Ward shield size and Blood Magic healing. Combined with Surge and Vigor, I can comfortably heal through most pressure builds and proc Sea Serpent for maximum damage. I can afford to play with lower regen because I'm using Essence Thief and Blood 4 Blood for my spammable, which practically costs nothing as it's covered by my offensive heals.

Yes, the build looks very strong and makes the class competitive. HOWEVER, I can just do better on a brawler NB. This is what my stats would look like on a brawler NB using the same build:

How is it that I'm able to get over 4k more weapon power just by switching to NB lol? Let's say I get more sustain and swap up my skills to be tankier:

Lost Major + Minor Breach, Minor Vul, Minor Brittle, some health for more mag, some weapon damage for more mag regen, and gained Major Evasion + a snare cleanse and still have more weapon power than my stamsorc build.

This is not to mention NB can just slot whatever sets and still perform well. You can't say the same about stamsorc lol. I am in the most damage possible with decent survivability and I'm not even close to what a NB can achieve stat-wise.

StaticWave · July 2023

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@ebix_

Correction: I forgot to remove Strike From The Shadows passive, so the Weapon Power should be slightly reduced, but it's still going to be higher.

I saw your version of builds and I see we have different ideas that suit our playstyles and there is nothing wrong with that.
there is always a trade, and on sorc I traided more healing to have more offense.
this used to be the mag blade build I was running:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?&id=557448

I know the numbers are very tempting but in real situations it didnt work as good as my current one. and its my playstyle, some one might have a better time using this build over other one.

its also partialy because of Cloaks offensive capability which I mentioned before, Channeling time first introduced to give a chance to react to a big damage abilities but since the channeling part happens in stealth you ignore that downside, most common with Snipe and Incap. its a huge difference if you can see a full damage ganker starts to incap you rather than notice it when you are already flat on the floor.
This is the biggest problem with Cloak imo and as long as this is not addressed adding ramping cost to cloak will only serve as a nerf not a solution.
if they nerf Cloak with ramping cost this problem will never be fixed. All i've been asking is for you to see beyond the savagery buff or Cloak spammers and fix this problem first.

That's a fair take. ZoS would have to address actual ganking according to your take. My original take was for brawlerblades though, not gankblades. I generally don't have an issue with gankblades, not because they can kill me in 1 GCD (which should happen anyways if they sacrifice all survivability for maximum damage), but because brawlerblades who are a lot tankier than a gankblade now has access to Cloak. I already have a hard time killing good brawlerblades even with my current max damage setup, so it will be even harder next patch when they can enter Cloak to avoid execute damage.

Turtle_Bot · July 2023

ebix_ wrote: »

its also partialy because of Cloaks offensive capability which I mentioned before, Channeling time first introduced to give a chance to react to a big damage abilities but since the channeling part happens in stealth you ignore that downside, most common with Snipe and Incap. its a huge difference if you can see a full damage ganker starts to incap you rather than notice it when you are already flat on the floor.
This is the biggest problem with Cloak imo and as long as this is not addressed adding ramping cost to cloak will only serve as a nerf not a solution.
if they nerf Cloak with ramping cost this problem will never be fixed. All i've been asking is for you to see beyond the savagery buff or Cloak spammers and fix this problem first.

I can get behind a rework to cloak to pull you out of stealth when you start channeling/casting an ability that would deal damage to an enemy instead of once it lands on the target (assuming this is what you are referring to here).

With the proposed addition of major prophecy/savagery, cloak is going to have the same issue of being too overloaded in what it enables for both offense and defense in 1 ability, especially now that NB has a very well rounded synergistic and cohesive class kit, just like corrosive does with DK, but obviously not to the same level as corrosive.

I'd be all for toning down streak too if sorc had such a strong and well rounded kit as well, but until the devs see fit to actually fix sorcs entire kit properly and not just for PvE pet builds or occasional random minor tweaks when it gets really bad, streak needs to be as strong as it is.

Bushido2513 · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

Don't worry. Zos doesn't make balance changes on emotions. And I can't remember the last time they made changes based on the mob l
On these forums.

That would be wrong on the first count and while I can't speak to your memory I can say the second count is unknown but likely wrong as well.

People remember things the way that suits them but if you actually go back and read the dev notes and compare them with forum posts at the same time you'll see a couple of patterns.

1 ZOS makes balance changes based upon their own goals however it's clear that some are likely based on their own emotions. Now if you're saying ZOS doesn't make changes based on the emotions of the players that would also be wrong. They do but I will refer back to point 1, they will make changes to appease the customer base but only if its fairly in line with point 1 meaning they were pretty much already going to do something in that area.

Though to your point I will say they very rarely make a direct and fast change based on the mob. It usually comes a patch cycle or two later and again only because they probably were going to touch that area of the game anyway.

So as always in the game, enjoy it if it's at a place that works for you. Some of us just aren't as happy and want to talk about that and hey that's life and that's ok.

ProudMary · July 2023

Cloak absolutely should have a ramping cost. Pretty sure the only people who disagree main NB's.