Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak

ShadowProc

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Balance not around duels. Your discarding whay he said. Many rules get put in that are not accounted for. Prohibiting sets and abilities that are in game to help balance.

So no dueling data is not valid for balancing. Not even close.

And....... why would it be needed overall to help dueling. You want ramping costd for them limit the amount of cloaks in duels. Lmao

Sure the rules point is a fair point indeed. But even when you take out the rules or just adjust in the math for them a few classes still outrank ALL other classes by some margin and that's still an issue and more of what I was getting at however I admit I didn't make that correctly clear as I am now.

I am open to investigating ramping cost because nb is one of the three top performing classes in pvp period and that's not a good thing.

Again I'm still talking about equally skilled players in or out of group scenarios. So no let's take out the thought of this affecting 1v1 but just where nb should fall into the balance of things.

I'd rather see a dueling tournament where (when skill level is even) DK kills Warden/Templar, Templar Kills Sorc/NB, NB kills Necro/Sorc, etc

That's not meant to be a perfect example but you get my point where each class has another class that gives them more trouble then another class. That's not what's going on here.

In an equally skilled group or 1v1 nb just performs better than classes that are not dk or warden. Now is it all about cloak, of course not, a ramping cost on cloak is just a targeted way to reign in power. You could do the same by altering the whole kit of nb but I think cloak gets targeted because it's just easier to think of reigning in nb using a ramp cost mechanic as we've seen it already work on sorc.

Well that's the problem though. Some believe any class should be able to kill any class. I agree with that and they try their best. But it is extremely difficult to pull off. I would love it but it will never be achieved. To many things change each patch.

ShadowProc

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

So does stam sorc. You keep leaving that off.....

Because it's just not true in the same way. Stamsorc can compete but crutches on sets and weapon skills to fill in gaps that those other classes just don't have. Again I'm speaking of evenly skilled players.

Any class can beat down another class in most cases where skill is the deciding factor to a sufficient degree. This is about NB being ahead of other classes to a degree that templar, Necro, sorc, etc can't match when skill isn't the deciding factor. That's the imbalance here

You cannot discount sets in the game. Zos takes all it into account when balancing. Some classes can just use some of them better.

So with them yes they belong in that group. Why do you think a lot of the streamers are running stam sorc right now? Not nbs.

Bushido2513

ShadowProc wrote: »

It is kept in check by all the available counters though. That is the point. Streak is not. You can build for speed. That's it. One option. And it doesn't fail when it's not suppose to like cloak.

Well actually you can build for speed which actually doesn't require much sacrifice for NB or DK who are front loaded at this point with damage and have easy access to expedition.

There are also gap closers. I can tell you from experience that streak can and is these days easily mitigated when you get to the mid to higher tiers of PVP.

ShadowProc wrote: »

Well that's the problem though. Some believe any class should be able to kill any class. I agree with that and they try their best. But it is extremely difficult to pull off. I would love it but it will never be achieved. To many things change each patch.

People confuse this being doable when skill is the deciding factor vs build vs class.

So if your skill is higher and your build is good anyone can kill anyone.

The problem comes when your skill is good, your build is good, but your class is outclassed by a class that outclasses more than 50 percent of available classes. That's a balance issue.

It should be rock paper scissors not rock and paper beat scissors the majority of the time.

I also didn't mind the rotation of a class being on top for a bit when it actually rotated domination more often but we haven't even gotten that in a while.

At least with dominant class being rotated you felt like you had a chance to enjoy the game for a bit. These last few cycles, nope.

ShadowProc wrote: »

You cannot discount sets in the game. Zos takes all it into account when balancing. Some classes can just use some of them better.

So with them yes they belong in that group. Why do you think a lot of the streamers are running stam sorc right now? Not nbs.

Sets being better on certain classes is not done correctly. Basically all good sets in this game work but just work better on dk NB or warden.

Take any build stamsorc needs to run and put it on dk or NB and it will still work but just with access to a better overall kit.

But then add to this scenario that dk and NB have access to sets that give them even more power that won't do the same for sorc because taking off the crutch sets immediately takes you down in power.

I'm not saying that there aren't optimal sets per class just that dk NB and warden suffer less due to having an overall better and more cohesive kit then other classes

ShadowProc

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

It is kept in check by all the available counters though. That is the point. Streak is not. You can build for speed. That's it. One option. And it doesn't fail when it's not suppose to like cloak.

Well actually you can build for speed which actually doesn't require much sacrifice for NB or DK who are front loaded at this point with damage and have easy access to expedition.

There are also gap closers. I can tell you from experience that streak can and is these days easily mitigated when you get to the mid to higher tiers of PVP.

ShadowProc wrote: »

Well that's the problem though. Some believe any class should be able to kill any class. I agree with that and they try their best. But it is extremely difficult to pull off. I would love it but it will never be achieved. To many things change each patch.

People confuse this being doable when skill is the deciding factor vs build vs class.

So if your skill is higher and your build is good anyone can kill anyone.

The problem comes when your skill is good, your build is good, but your class is outclassed by a class that outclasses more than 50 percent of available classes. That's a balance issue.

It should be rock paper scissors not rock and paper beat scissors the majority of the time.

I also didn't mind the rotation of a class being on top for a bit when it actually rotated domination more often but we haven't even gotten that in a while.

At least with dominant class being rotated you felt like you had a chance to enjoy the game for a bit. These last few cycles, nope.

ShadowProc wrote: »

You cannot discount sets in the game. Zos takes all it into account when balancing. Some classes can just use some of them better.

So with them yes they belong in that group. Why do you think a lot of the streamers are running stam sorc right now? Not nbs.

Sets being better on certain classes is not done correctly. Basically all good sets in this game work but just work better on dk NB or warden.

Take any build stamsorc needs to run and put it on dk or NB and it will still work but just with access to a better overall kit.

But then add to this scenario that dk and NB have access to sets that give them even more power that won't do the same for sorc because taking off the crutch sets immediately takes you down in power.

I'm not saying that there aren't optimal sets per class just that dk NB and warden suffer less due to having an overall better and more cohesive kit then other classes

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. But those are separate problems. This discussion is about one skill. No evidence have been given. A lot of emotional opnions have been given why a nerf is warranted but the actual evidence is that there are counters. I am sorry but period.

And clearly zos agrees.

And you did not respond to what I wrote about cloak failing. Often times you have to cast it two or more times as it is for it to work. And if you all all have played it before then you are aware of this or are forgetting it for the sake of your argument.

It's insult to injury if you add ramping costs to it. So if I cast 2 times to get it to work It costs me 3 casts worth of resources? This will compound as you see to the point where even magicka nbs will suffer big time.

You ignored what I wrote about streak. My argument was that it does not fail like cloak. Neither does dodge roll. THAT is the difference with Cloak.

Alchimiste1

ShadowProc wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Not against it, but there has to be some mechanic put in place when cloak breaks or is broken for no apparent reason, and detection potions. If the cost is reimbursed or something...atleast something.

That's the part I don't understand. They claim they have played it but don't know how many times it breaks.

Imagine it breaks from something that's not supposed to so you cast it again which stinks on its own but add in ramping cost? How is that right.

They compare it to streak. But not the same thing. Does streak EVER not work? Does it get broken by things that are not suppose to break it? NO.

Clearly Zos understands this and hence the ramping costs on streak and roll dodge. Both never fail to work.

Disagree with that point?

"Does streak EVER not work? Does it get broken by things that are not suppose to break it? NO. "

-Yes, you'd know this if you played more classes.

StaticWave

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

Yea the only tournament I won was 3 years ago when Mech Acuity had a 18s cooldown and 100% crit chance for 5s. There were many strong players, including a magplar that has won several tournaments and a very strong magdk.

I won because instead of fighting normally, I took advantage of Acuity and 1 shotted the strong players when the chance appeared. Basically played defensive the entire duel until I could 1 shot them.

Whatever that guy said about “learning to counter other classes”, I’ve done that for 5 years of dueling. You can name any class and I will tell you the most effective way to counter that class.

But there’s only so much you can do before class imbalance sets in. Good player vs good player, the stronger class wins by a long shot. There is no contest here. You could be perfectly weaving, block casting every skill and kiting to avoid damage, but if you’re a Necro fighting a DK, you are going to still lose lol. All you’ve done is prolonged your inevitable death.

Usually the people that don’t think there’s an issue with class balance haven’t played the game to the highest level yet. Not being toxic, just stating what it is.

Game is not and should not be balanced around duels. Different strengths and weaknesses of classes. It was designed with pvp zone and a duel zone was added later.

Asking for balance in game where Zos business model theyvhave proovong to shift the top classes to drive profit is a waste of time. The funny thing is that if you are patient what you are sking for will eventually happen anyways to drive more profit.

DK, NB, and Warden excel in all aspect of PvP. Strength and weaknesses don't apply to those 3 classes.

So does stam sorc. You keep leaving that off.....

Lol. Sorc excels in all aspect of PvP?

StaticWave

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'll just repeat this again. There is no rule that says a NB using Cloak is squishy. This is what many brawler blades will be using next patch:



Tooltip of Concealed and Bow:




All of these offensive stats while being tanky and having 1 proc set. NB is NOT squishy if you build right. Now add Cloak to that and tell me if it's "easy" killing any decent NB with a good build.

I know we are not here to discuss builds, but there are some mistakes in this build that "top tier Nightblades" should not make.

First lets imagine you can sustain with that recovery.
You have all points in stamina on a magblade, so not taking advantege of Magicka Flood passive.
Using way of fire on a burst class like NB is a misplay, especially if you can't keep the uptime. I suggest a set like Red Mountain if you want proc damage.
Your hp is Too low for a Brawlerblade.
Why using Resilience cp with Rallying Cry and 4 Pieces of impen!? there are bigger diminishing returns if you stack one type of mitigation.

Any nightblade with that tooltip and tankiness might not be an easy kill but also wont be dangerous with Cloak, also if they are not running Major Expedition like you using Cloak will be only a waste of mag for them. tho you can still kill bad players with it, but tbh you wont even need a decent build to kill them anyway.

Lmao so you are telling the top tier NBs running this build that they shouldn’t run it? Okay lol

Show me what you are running

[snip]

1) I know the class from past experience
2) I play with top tier NBs

I can always ask them for opinion, and quite frankly I trust them more than the majority of NB mains on the forums. Most of them also agree that Cloak needs a ramping cost, btw.

I also will trust them more too. I would trust your opinion more also if you didn't ask for so many nerfs and made more rationale arguments. I know you know the game but your being biased in this case clearly. I don't want to beat a dead horse but I know you know the counters if you duel that much so if you choose not to use them that's on you.

But they're available and function. There's no arguing that. You choose not to

Please tell me why there is ramping cost on Streak but not on Cloak.

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

My comment is very much accurate. As someone who has well over a decade doing PvP, and mostly instanced PvP vs what is large group PvP, I would never suggest all classes were equal as that would have been absurd.

And the more skilled PvP player has learned to counter the other player and gain the advantage. Those who do not learn to overcome perish more often. That is a simple fact with PvP. Truth.

Ok so I kind of see what you're saying and let me see if I can break this down for you.

Yes you are correct, I have killed many other players on other classes who were less skilled than I. I actually already said this and this isn't really the debate.

What we're really talking about is equal level players in which case then class balance is a huge factor.

Find two equally skilled players and let one be a dk or nb and one be a sorc, statistically the sorc just isn't winning the majority of the time and again @StaticWave has the data to back this up.

So just absorb this for a second. I'm not saying better players don't beat lesser players. I'm saying equally skilled players suffer a larger disadvantage due to class in an otherwise equal fight. You can say hey that other player just isn't better than the one who won all you want but we are now talking about actually data that shows that players who know how to play the game just have a hard time getting past class imbalance when up against opponents of equal skill level.


And yes that's going to be my focus here because if the skill is less then the opponent should and likely will die but that's no help at all to an equally matched opponent who's class is letting them down vs this other possibly over performing class.

I've played many many games over the years and there are a few rules that stand in general when it comes to pvp.

One of the golden rules is that if a class, archetype, etc is winning too many matches then it's probably overperforming.

Now we don't have ZOS's back end data but we do have thousands of hours of dueling tournaments on youtube, data from @StaticWave and others like him, etc that clearly show that some classes like nb and dk are just performing better.


Or are you saying that for some reason good players just only like to play nb and dk and anyone that losses to them no matter how well they might do on the same class, how many tournaments they've otherwise won, etc just isn't as good as the other player? That they just didn't learn the counters correctly????


Or are you saying that you know the skill of everyone who is interested in this change and that you know from experience with them that the only reason they want this change is not because they feel nb is overtuned and that cloak with no cost ramp is adding to this but that they all just aren't good enough to use counters?



To put it another way, I have no problem loosing a race, I have a problem if I lose in a race where all cars are supposed to be similar but I'm driving a mustang and the other guy is in a Ferrari and someone in the stands is yelling saying I need to use the corners, adapt, and overcome. What???


Be the better player theory only works when all players are at least given similar levels of power.

Balance not around duels. Your discarding whay he said. Many rules get put in that are not accounted for. Prohibiting sets and abilities that are in game to help balance.

So no dueling data is not valid for balancing. Not even close.

And....... why would it be needed overall to help dueling. You want ramping costd for them limit the amount of cloaks in duels. Lmao

There are no rules tourneys where class imbalance is amplified. Magsorc which does well in a tourney with rules now places bottom in a no rules tourney. DK excels as always, same for NB.

I know the subtleties. Not my point at all and you know it. I was saying that anyone trying to say dueling data to balance is way off.

No it isn’t. It’s one of the best forms of gauging balance.

StaticWave

ShadowProc wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Game is not and should not be balanced around duels. Different strengths and weaknesses of classes. It was designed with pvp zone and a duel zone was added later.

Asking for balance in game where Zos business model theyvhave proovong to shift the top classes to drive profit is a waste of time. The funny thing is that if you are patient what you are sking for will eventually happen anyways to drive more profit.

Correct that the game should not be balanced around 1v1 but Static brought up the important issue. Currently 3 classes excel at most all types of pvp and that's a balance issue.

I'm all for saying when the players are even DK trumps Warden, Warden trumps NB, NB trumps, sorc, etc but that's not what's happening here.

DK, NB, and Warden have higher chances of trumping every other class that isn't them and that's an issue. Again I'm saying in scenarios where skill level is more so equal and I mean that from the bottom and top of the skill levels.

Now yes this thread is just about NB but you have to start somewhere and there are other threads about dk and warden nerf request so yes this is targeted at nb but that's fair because other overperforming classes are also being targeted which makes sense if you're trying to get some overall balance.


And no the cycle is not in effect like it seemed to be over the last few years. DK, NB, and Warden just keep staying at the top end for a while now. It used to be yeah just wait and your class will come up but that has stalled for some time now. And yeah maybe that's an arcanist thing, low staffing on ZOS part, an effect of the merger, etc but it's not moving like it used to.

Stam sorc is in that group as well. And don't try it's because of proc sets. It's the whole package with them.

This tells me you don’t know much about Sorc. Please explain what package Sorc has that puts it in DK tier

StaticWave

Also @Turtle_Bot @Bushido2513, let’s end it here. This guy ShadowProc just said Sorc is in the same tier as DK, Warden, and NB and I’m not including it because I’m biased…

I can literally show NB mains here the massive stat difference between Sorc and other classes using THE SAME BUILD, and even clips of them in real fights, but there is no point. They claim I’m biased yet they are just as biased as their claim of me.

Forget it, let them have their buffs, then everyone of us should hop on NB and dominate, if we still play.

Bushido2513

ShadowProc wrote: »

This discussion is about one skill. No evidence have been given. A lot of emotional opnions have been given why a nerf is warranted but the actual evidence is that there are counters. I am sorry but period.

Well actually the only thing we know is that one side is for it and one side is against it. Without testing neither side can be proven or disproven.

Having counters and those counters being suitable on a large enough scale are different things

ShadowProc wrote: »

And clearly zos agrees.

If you want to talk facts this is not one. This is your interpretation of inaction by ZOS but the fact is actually that they themselves have said time and time again that they can't get to everything and that they want players to be patient with them. You or I don't know what's coming in the future but we do know they keep changing things because the game is not currently what they agree that it should be all together.

So unless ZOS makes a post right now that says we agree let's stick to the facts and try not to read into their actions or lack there of as being facts of their intentions. The fact is the wind is just blowing one way for now but could change at any point.

ShadowProc wrote: »

And you did not respond to what I wrote about cloak failing. Often times you have to cast it two or more times as it is for it to work. And if you all all have played it before then you are aware of this or are forgetting it for the sake of your argument.

I mean I do find that if I'm revealed or stuck in combat that I have to recast cloak but that's more a function of my use of it or a bug in the game. But I've played NB a good amount as a bomber and some as a straight up fighter and never really felt that cloak let me down

Streak has such bugs as well, not getting the full distance on uneven terrain, crushing shock pulling you back and locking out your controls, etc

ShadowProc wrote: »

It's insult to injury if you add ramping costs to it. So if I cast 2 times to get it to work It costs me 3 casts worth of resources? This will compound as you see to the point where even magicka nbs will suffer big time.

You ignored what I wrote about streak. My argument was that it does not fail like cloak. Neither does dodge roll. THAT is the difference with Cloak.

Well again this is your opinion of what would happen but to know we'd either need to see it on pts or live then see how people would adjust the build. Again I've said multiple times if it was too harsh I'd be ok reverting or maybe we start with 20 percent cost ramp? But either way I do feel that enough interest is and has been there to warrant a look at the idea.

Again I have not had a cloak or streak failure be an issue for me. I actually have an old bg clip I can post where I use it several times during the match with no issues and I can post if you like? I'm not saying this doesn't happen just that I'm not seeing it or don't notice in my playtime.

Maybe you can link to a clip of what you're speaking of?

Note that for streak I don't count the terrain issues as a failure just an annoyance with the game engine really

ebix_

StaticWave wrote: »

Also @Turtle_Bot @Bushido2513, let’s end it here. This guy ShadowProc just said Sorc is in the same tier as DK, Warden, and NB and I’m not including it because I’m biased…

I can literally show NB mains here the massive stat difference between Sorc and other classes using THE SAME BUILD, and even clips of them in real fights, but there is no point. They claim I’m biased yet they are just as biased as their claim of me.

Forget it, let them have their buffs, then everyone of us should hop on NB and dominate, if we still play.

Let me also end it like this if you are willing to listen.
First thing, comparing two different class on the same build is not a good idea, it's easier to explain with an example. you need less sustain for Sorc so if you simply put the same build on Blade you will end up with more stats on paper but practically you need to give that up for more sustain to make that build functional in a real situation.

throughout my post here I tried to explain that adding ramping cost to Cloak like Streak is a nerf but not a solution, it will do little to nothing about gankers either. gankers are generaly squishy and they die if you break their cloak once or twice, problem is what if you dont know they are around or like you said before what if they are fake running to hit you with an incap combo? then you realise you are incapped when you are already on the ground. Ramping cost wont save you there.

The thing with Cloak or Strealth in general is it breaks when your damage lands and thats the problem, which also gets worse when you are against ranged blades, like you get snipped and you realise that when the attacker might already be in stealth. Solution is that stealth should break when you cast or start channeling an ability.
maybe you can add a little extra like when stealth breaks with damage next one withing X seconds cost X% more to reward breaking their Cloak, but dropping Streaks penalty on Cloak is simply wont fix your problem it might just push blades toward more magicka based builds and thats it.

Bushido2513

ebix_ wrote: »

The thing with Cloak or Strealth in general is it breaks when your damage lands and thats the problem, which also gets worse when you are against ranged blades, like you get snipped and you realise that when the attacker might already be in stealth. Solution is that stealth should break when you cast or start channeling an ability.
maybe you can add a little extra like when stealth breaks with damage next one withing X seconds cost X% more to reward breaking their Cloak, but dropping Streaks penalty on Cloak is simply wont fix your problem it might just push blades toward more magicka based builds and thats it.

Yeah I had a similar idea that I hadn't posted because I wasn't sure I wanted to vary into that area with all the other tangents going on. But yeah I definitely support more elegant solutions to this problem. Ramping cost probably came up because people just wanted to copy paste a solution that worked in what seems like a possibly similar case.

I'd actually say that adding a cost ramp to cloak would fix a problem in specific scenarios but not in all. Something like the above might lead to a better overall fix.

ShadowProc

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Not against it, but there has to be some mechanic put in place when cloak breaks or is broken for no apparent reason, and detection potions. If the cost is reimbursed or something...atleast something.

That's the part I don't understand. They claim they have played it but don't know how many times it breaks.

Imagine it breaks from something that's not supposed to so you cast it again which stinks on its own but add in ramping cost? How is that right.

They compare it to streak. But not the same thing. Does streak EVER not work? Does it get broken by things that are not suppose to break it? NO.

Clearly Zos understands this and hence the ramping costs on streak and roll dodge. Both never fail to work.

Disagree with that point?

"Does streak EVER not work? Does it get broken by things that are not suppose to break it? NO. "

-Yes, you'd know this if you played more classes.

False. Not even close to cloak and you know it. I played sorc for 2 years at least of each version. You obviously have never player nb more than leveling at most.

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'll just repeat this again. There is no rule that says a NB using Cloak is squishy. This is what many brawler blades will be using next patch:



Tooltip of Concealed and Bow:




All of these offensive stats while being tanky and having 1 proc set. NB is NOT squishy if you build right. Now add Cloak to that and tell me if it's "easy" killing any decent NB with a good build.

I know we are not here to discuss builds, but there are some mistakes in this build that "top tier Nightblades" should not make.

First lets imagine you can sustain with that recovery.
You have all points in stamina on a magblade, so not taking advantege of Magicka Flood passive.
Using way of fire on a burst class like NB is a misplay, especially if you can't keep the uptime. I suggest a set like Red Mountain if you want proc damage.
Your hp is Too low for a Brawlerblade.
Why using Resilience cp with Rallying Cry and 4 Pieces of impen!? there are bigger diminishing returns if you stack one type of mitigation.

Any nightblade with that tooltip and tankiness might not be an easy kill but also wont be dangerous with Cloak, also if they are not running Major Expedition like you using Cloak will be only a waste of mag for them. tho you can still kill bad players with it, but tbh you wont even need a decent build to kill them anyway.

Lmao so you are telling the top tier NBs running this build that they shouldn’t run it? Okay lol

Show me what you are running

[snip]

1) I know the class from past experience
2) I play with top tier NBs

I can always ask them for opinion, and quite frankly I trust them more than the majority of NB mains on the forums. Most of them also agree that Cloak needs a ramping cost, btw.

I also will trust them more too. I would trust your opinion more also if you didn't ask for so many nerfs and made more rationale arguments. I know you know the game but your being biased in this case clearly. I don't want to beat a dead horse but I know you know the counters if you duel that much so if you choose not to use them that's on you.

But they're available and function. There's no arguing that. You choose not to

Please tell me why there is ramping cost on Streak but not on Cloak.

Asked and answered. Cloak breaks on things it's not suppose to. Streak does not.

And no, the burden off proof is on you to prove a nerf, which like your other threads didn't happen.

[edited to remove quote]

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

Also @Turtle_Bot @Bushido2513, let’s end it here. This guy ShadowProc just said Sorc is in the same tier as DK, Warden, and NB and I’m not including it because I’m biased…

I can literally show NB mains here the massive stat difference between Sorc and other classes using THE SAME BUILD, and even clips of them in real fights, but there is no point. They claim I’m biased yet they are just as biased as their claim of me.

Forget it, let them have their buffs, then everyone of us should hop on NB and dominate, if we still play.

Heard that so many times. And I love it when they do. They get taught how to play nb.

Alchimiste1

ShadowProc wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Not against it, but there has to be some mechanic put in place when cloak breaks or is broken for no apparent reason, and detection potions. If the cost is reimbursed or something...atleast something.

That's the part I don't understand. They claim they have played it but don't know how many times it breaks.

Imagine it breaks from something that's not supposed to so you cast it again which stinks on its own but add in ramping cost? How is that right.

They compare it to streak. But not the same thing. Does streak EVER not work? Does it get broken by things that are not suppose to break it? NO.

Clearly Zos understands this and hence the ramping costs on streak and roll dodge. Both never fail to work.

Disagree with that point?

"Does streak EVER not work? Does it get broken by things that are not suppose to break it? NO. "

-Yes, you'd know this if you played more classes.

False. Not even close to cloak and you know it. I played sorc for 2 years at least of each version. You obviously have never player nb more than leveling at most.

You played 2 minutes on sorc if that’s what you experienced. It’s not unusual for streak to just not work.

I’ve never played nb ? Yeah alright, if you are on PC NA just let me know when you want to fight

PhoenixGrey

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I just showed a screenshot of a NB clearly not squishy and clearly has very good offensive stats. So unless anyone is going to address the issue of tanky brawlerblades having access to Cloak with Major Savagery buff, then any argument made about NB being "easy to kill if pulled out of cloak" will be disregarded.

Not at all. Lmao. No one playing the build you made on paper.

ShadowProc wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

So does stam sorc. You keep leaving that off.....

Because it's just not true in the same way. Stamsorc can compete but crutches on sets and weapon skills to fill in gaps that those other classes just don't have. Again I'm speaking of evenly skilled players.

Any class can beat down another class in most cases where skill is the deciding factor to a sufficient degree. This is about NB being ahead of other classes to a degree that templar, Necro, sorc, etc can't match when skill isn't the deciding factor. That's the imbalance here

You cannot discount sets in the game. Zos takes all it into account when balancing. Some classes can just use some of them better.

So with them yes they belong in that group. Why do you think a lot of the streamers are running stam sorc right now? Not nbs.

Clearly zos does not take into account any sets when it comes to nb

There is clear bias

Kaysha

streaking twice in a row get´s you out of gap closer range.
cloaking twice in a row get´s you...where? most of the time the first two cloaks don´t even work.

And yes, I play mag sorc and NB since beta. thx.

Kaysha

and beside from that...where´s the counter to double streak? noone uses only one streak to get away. so the argument of saying gap closers are the counter to streak is nonexistent

Kaysha

that leads to the conclusion:
introducing ramping costs to cloak is OK, if all counters to cloak are being removed at the same time

DrNukenstein

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Clearly zos does not take into account any sets when it comes to nb

There is clear bias

Do you remember which iconic Nightblade set got gutted on the same patch that ZOS gave them a good kit?

Amottica

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

My comment is very much accurate. As someone who has well over a decade doing PvP, and mostly instanced PvP vs what is large group PvP, I would never suggest all classes were equal as that would have been absurd.

And the more skilled PvP player has learned to counter the other player and gain the advantage. Those who do not learn to overcome perish more often. That is a simple fact with PvP. Truth.

Ok so I kind of see what you're saying and let me see if I can break this down for you.

Yes you are correct, I have killed many other players on other classes who were less skilled than I. I actually already said this and this isn't really the debate.

What we're really talking about is equal level players in which case then class balance is a huge factor.

Find two equally skilled players and let one be a dk or nb and one be a sorc, statistically the sorc just isn't winning the majority of the time and again @StaticWave has the data to back this up.

So just absorb this for a second. I'm not saying better players don't beat lesser players. I'm saying equally skilled players suffer a larger disadvantage due to class in an otherwise equal fight. You can say hey that other player just isn't better than the one who won all you want but we are now talking about actually data that shows that players who know how to play the game just have a hard time getting past class imbalance when up against opponents of equal skill level.


And yes that's going to be my focus here because if the skill is less then the opponent should and likely will die but that's no help at all to an equally matched opponent who's class is letting them down vs this other possibly over performing class.

I've played many many games over the years and there are a few rules that stand in general when it comes to pvp.

One of the golden rules is that if a class, archetype, etc is winning too many matches then it's probably overperforming.

Now we don't have ZOS's back end data but we do have thousands of hours of dueling tournaments on youtube, data from @StaticWave and others like him, etc that clearly show that some classes like nb and dk are just performing better.


Or are you saying that for some reason good players just only like to play nb and dk and anyone that losses to them no matter how well they might do on the same class, how many tournaments they've otherwise won, etc just isn't as good as the other player? That they just didn't learn the counters correctly????


Or are you saying that you know the skill of everyone who is interested in this change and that you know from experience with them that the only reason they want this change is not because they feel nb is overtuned and that cloak with no cost ramp is adding to this but that they all just aren't good enough to use counters?



To put it another way, I have no problem loosing a race, I have a problem if I lose in a race where all cars are supposed to be similar but I'm driving a mustang and the other guy is in a Ferrari and someone in the stands is yelling saying I need to use the corners, adapt, and overcome. What???


Be the better player theory only works when all players are at least given similar levels of power.

Not sure why Sorc is the standard to which the effectiveness of NB cloak and its counters are measured. It’s not and discussions about the single winner of a tournament is entirely irrelevant. That’s just breaking down the facts of the matter.

That is why it’s a tangent outside of what the OP has said about one singular Sorc skill.

Bushido2513

Kaysha wrote: »

and beside from that...where´s the counter to double streak? noone uses only one streak to get away. so the argument of saying gap closers are the counter to streak is nonexistent

Just gotta comment because this kind of bad information just shouldn't be spread.

Any class with two swift and celerity will catch up to you. Everyone has access to major expedition. They don't even need a gap closer. And yeah you can say this is built into speed but generally nb and dk have enough damage that they can sacrifice the traits and star.

I'm not even making this up and @StaticWave even posted a video. Movement speed is just that free right now.

Ok and before anyone says it no I'm not saying streak is useless. I'm saying that I personally have been chased down by others with good movement speed even using double streaks.


Also gap closers generally work well and have enough time to lock on before the second streak. Again I've been chased with gap closer spam so I'm not just saying this.

Kaysha

That´s of course a no brainer. But everone has access to the same speed tools. They are not exactly what you might call a counter to streak in this conversation.

sabresandiego_ESO

Cloak spam is one of the dumbest mechanics in the game. It should obviously have a ramping cost the same way streak does

ShadowProc

DrNukenstein wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Clearly zos does not take into account any sets when it comes to nb

There is clear bias

Do you remember which iconic Nightblade set got gutted on the same patch that ZOS gave them a good kit?

Awesome. Beat me to it.

ShadowProc

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Kaysha wrote: »

and beside from that...where´s the counter to double streak? noone uses only one streak to get away. so the argument of saying gap closers are the counter to streak is nonexistent

Just gotta comment because this kind of bad information just shouldn't be spread.

Any class with two swift and celerity will catch up to you. Everyone has access to major expedition. They don't even need a gap closer. And yeah you can say this is built into speed but generally nb and dk have enough damage that they can sacrifice the traits and star.

I'm not even making this up and @StaticWave even posted a video. Movement speed is just that free right now.

Ok and before anyone says it no I'm not saying streak is useless. I'm saying that I personally have been chased down by others with good movement speed even using double streaks.


Also gap closers generally work well and have enough time to lock on before the second streak. Again I've been chased with gap closer spam so I'm not just saying this.

Yours is the misinformation. 2 streaks let's them reset the failed burst. Then if they good the turn and fight. Or if they good they continue to streak away the manage their resources with exchange and get away. Or if they bad they run our of resources they die

SandandStars

First I would like to acknowledge the NBs who agreed that Cloak would be more balanced with a ramping cost. Everybody naturally wants to defend their main class, so hats off to you for being honest.

Second: Look at the number of replies and detailed arguments this thread has generated.

I’ve only been on these forums since May of this year, but in that time I’ve seen more NB mains arguing passionately to defend their class than any other. Which is kind of interesting, since they seem to be either #2 or #1 in pvp (when played by skilled players) and continue to get good buffs.

Draw what conclusions from this you will.

MetallicMonk

Ganker mains try to press 2 other skills in between 2 cloaks challenge: impossible.