Civilian mode in Alliance war? Perhaps PVE Campaigns?

rootkitronin

ArchMikem wrote: »

Just open another Cyrodiil Campaign, but make it a PvP disabled questing zone and be done with it.

Not a terrible idea to be honest - definitely a lot easier to implement than a civilian mode. Not sure how complicated things might get in the back end, or if there would be issues balancing achievements, but even as someone who plays PVP from time to time, I've been itching for them to do something more with Cyrodiil, though not at the expense of PVP.

Lady_Galadhiel

Better option would be to have one or 2 Cyro campaigns (and IC) where no PVP would be allowed.
Just for people to collect the skyshards, do the quests and enjoy the area like every other zone in the game.
Leave the other campaigns as they are, just for PVP'ers to do their thing.Because with the limited population what Cyro has, I think it would be best to add 2 new campaigns (outside of the event) just for exploring.

Twig_Garlicshine

Tarloch_S wrote: »

Civilian noun a person who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization. Maybe Citizen is a more appropriate tag as in game that's what you are before being forced as a volunteer?

Proposal noun a plan or suggestion, especially a formal or written one, put forward for consideration or discussion by others.
====== Not to be confused with: ======
Request noun an act of asking politely or formally for something.
Desired outcome: Inspire a discussion about the subject matters plausibility, feasibility and overall positive or negative impact it could have on the community.

Proposal: By adding a Civilian option you would be opening areas of the game to a population of players who choose not to experience them rather than be forced to endure a playstyle they do not enjoy and participate in a war they may not support. Currently you enter as a Citizen and are forced to become enlisted as a Volunteer (active duty with a military) and deemed the enemy by other alliances. All activities/rewards coded around the war (PVP) would be unavailable to a Civilian.

Would you be in favor of a Civilian mode in the Alliance War? Would opening the war to PVE civilian players take anything away from the PVP player? Why or why not?

Some thoughts:

1. Allow players to join a campaign (locked for it's entirety) as a Civilian.

2. A Civilian can still be attacked and killed by soldiers but the offender would be marked as a "War criminal" and suffer some form of critically severe punishment to dissuade such behavior.

3. "War criminal" - What should the punishment be if any?

4. How to prevent antagonists from posing as a Civilian and trying to gank Soldiers into a kill?

• Civilian tag should be Very distinguishable.
• Delayed damage? Perhaps it takes multiple attacks with almost no damage to start the kill process?
• Civilian can't cause damage to soldiers?

5. Combat between 2 players marked as "Civilian" would be controlled by the duel code currently in place.

6. Marked civilians have no alliance thus allowing travel through all areas?

• Maybe, quests that let you acquire travel papers to navigate zones not in your alliance origin?

You/they would be taking up slots in areas with a player cap, thus denying access to pvp players who specifically want to enjoy all of that content.
Pvpers get 2 events per year. Every single time pv'ers come up with these non-participation bypass ideas.
Can we have non-participation bypasses for all pve content too for those of us that don't pve?
How about we make a slot for non combatants in trials (hard mode or not), where players can stand around, not die, not participate, do nothing, and get carried. 4-5 slots per trial should do the trick.
Just because something exists, does not mean you have to do it. Don't want to pvp? Then don't.
I have never played ToT and never will.

Tarloch_S

To those of you actually taking the time to read, think and present ideas that might influence a change to add value and enhance the community. BRAVO

Creating separate PVE campaigns sounds more viable than any form of integration for sure.

Twig_Garlicshine

Tarloch_S wrote: »

To those of you actually taking the time to read, think and present ideas that might influence a change to add value and enhance the community. BRAVO

Creating separate PVE campaigns sounds more viable than any form of integration for sure.

Please create PvP everywhere servers.
Also in ToT can we have opponents die when losing.
Crafting should involve a rng fail, penalty of exploding. (from Dark Age of Camelot)
Everything PvE obviously needs stiffer death penalties to get players to realize PvP is not in fact any different.
This would greatly enhance and add value to the game.

This sudden distaste for death in a game, just because the zone is labelled PvP is very illogical.

TechMaybeHic

All that is achieved in Cyrodiil is intended to be done with the risk of PvP. Hence why it is usually an "achievement" and not just a check box. Any form without requiring the current minimal risk would cheaper the value

Imagine whatever the rewards are sought after in PvE were done by declaring a no combat method to just walk through the raise. Would the achievements be worth anything if you didn't have to participate in the actual content of the zone? Maybe you complete the quest but skipp all the boss fights.

DrNukenstein

Yes, but civilians and war criminals should have a map marker pointing to the general (but not exact, updates every minute?) location on the map so that it can be easier to find the small PVP in Cyrodil.

The penalty for massacring civilians should be more PVP. The reward for playing in civilian mode should be letting everyone know you're playing in civilian mode.

To prevent griefing of the system, war criminals and civilians cannot form or join parties and get no AP. War criminal parties can stay in tact once they decide to become war criminals as a group, but get no AP for their efforts.

Civilians have "papers" that let them cross gates, borders and keep doors, and make faction npc's non hostile. These papers would drop on death and can be used by war criminals for even more "war crimes"

Add a new Boethiah Daedric Artifact that purges all civilians from Cyrodil for 2 hours, for when it's sweat time.

Create agriculture objectives for civilian players, to really crank up the immersion for both sides.

rootkitronin

Fkey wrote: »

Also in ToT can we have opponents die when losing.

This already happens to me on the inside every time I play

belial5221_ESO

I dunno why they don't make the non-banner cities safezones for questing.One in AD territory would be nice,then we'd have chorrol DC,cheydinhal EP,and a third for AD.Then all the rest of areas could be same same as usual.This would allow PVEers to babystep into PVP and wouldn't cut players from PVP events.

VaranisArano

Despite the many complaints on this thread and others theoughout the years, there are still plenty of players who casually go to Cyrodiil and Imperial City for their event tickets and leave.

Despite the many complaints during the Anniversary Event, there are still many players who casually go to Cyrodiil because they want quick Jubilee boxes and then leave.

Despite the periodic complaints from players who realize that getting their skyshards requires them to participate in the Alliance War and that achievements like Master Angler do require them to engage with the whole of the base game which includes PvPvE Cyrodiil, there are still many players who go into PVP zones to quest, get the Alliance War Skill Line, get achievements, and then leave.

Turns out there are lots of players who are willing to casually engage in PVP when there's a reward they want bad enough.

And if you participate in PVP at all when there's a reward you want, congrats, you're in that category of players. Even if you complain and hold your nose the whole time.

.......

When we talk about the harm done to PVP by adding a PVE-only Campaign, I'm going to ignore the complaints about "Oh, PVPers couldn't get their easy prey."

Oh, my sweet casuals who only show up for events, who do you think gankers fight when its not an event? Other PVPers, that's who. Don't worry for the gankers. They'll have entertainment when you go back to PVE after you get what you came for.

.......

Instead, when we talk about "harm done" from a PVE-only campaign, I want to review that first list of players. Some of them may tolerate PVP, some of them may hate it, some of them may enjoy it for a short time. A tiny minority will like it so much they become hard-core PVPers. All of them have something in common: They are in fact willing to queue up for PVP Cyrodiil and Imperial City when there's a reward they want.

That's actually a good thing! It's a good thing when players try out all aspects of the game. It's a good thing when players can casually participate in all aspects of the game. its a good thing to reward people for trying all aspects of the game. I think it's wonderful that people come out to casually PVP during events, and if even a tiny fraction of them become regulars after events, that's new blood in the PVP community.

Now, I want you to consider a PVE-only campaign where all those people who are willing to casually queue up for PVP Cyrodiil and Imperial City to get what they want can get that stuff easier and quicker.

Suddenly, the vast majority of those players who are already willing to participate in PVP just won't anymore because they have an easier option.

That's bad. That's bad for PVP because there's no casual introduction to it anymore. That's bad for PVP because our rewards were made easier by not participating. That's actually bad for ZOS because now players who would've participated with all aspects of ESO are able to avoid part of it.

................

I know, I know, "But then only the people who really want to PVP will go there, and if they don't like it wnough to PVP, too bad for PVP."

And I remind you that we're talking about players who are in fact already willing to queue up for PVP zones in order to get the rewards they want. Creating a situation where otherwise willing players are disincentivized from participating is not good game design.

Moreover, the siren call of "easier, quicker, more efficient use of time" is sure to call many players who actually enjoy PVP.

You know how many PVE and PVP players are all about the Meta? How people dedicate their time to doing loads of crafting writs because it's an efficient way to make gold?

It doesn't matter if you love PVP or hate it. A PVE-only campaign would completely rewrite the Meta for event tickets and other Cyro/IC rewards, to the detriment of the PVP community.

.......

Finally, if you finished this thinking "Wow, what a salty PVPer..." Pepperidge Farm remembers the absolute case of Sour Grapes that the PVE community had when ZOS gave Normal Maelstrom weapons the Vet-only weapon Bonus.

Y'all know exactly what happens when ZOS moves previously exclusive rewards to easier content.

NoticeMeArkay

Hey, I'm the most casual PVE player you can think of and I'd like to add something to this discussion to offer a bit of perspective:

Back during Elsweyr, I picked up the game properly and it didn't take long for me to follow the storyline all the way to Cyrodiil. Starting out in the sewers and eventually being lead to the open battlefield.
Back then I had absolutely no clue about what to build, I was proud of myself for wearing Alfiq on ALL slots and you may imagine how awful my stats must have looked like. Magicka Necromancer, by the way.

I finished the IC storyline in less than a week. And I enjoyed things a lot. The thrill of having to be on the lookout for enemy players added really to the immersion and just increased the amount of fun I was having. I didn't get frustrated when I got killed. In fact it allowed me to pick up some tricks by watching both my brethren in arms and my enemies work their ways. And it inspired me to think about new ways to keep myself safe. Such as mixing potions that turn me both invisible and keep me unharmed from any crowd control effects. Or how about adding some movement speed to it so I can sneak past enemy players faster? The game pushed me to have a look at all the tools it offered me and make use of them. When a game pushes me to improve by simply joining a new section of it, I consider that good game design!

The game introduced me to a new enemy, the other two alliances. New, far more intelligent foes which are enemy players. They are creative, they adapt, they keep the combat dynamic! And it did not only push me to get better at survival, but taught me how by forcing me to become more observative while I play.

Dodge rolls are more than just a roleplay gimmick? Amazing!
I can negate damage when I block? What do I block best with?
What do you mean I turn invisible when I sneak in a certain range to enemy players?

The same thing applies to the never-ending battlefield that is Cyrodiil.
I went there with less than 130CP. I did all the quests, all the delves, grabbed my nirnroot wine memento and had a bloody good time all by myself! Still in awful gear but with invisibility potions on my quickslot wheel and a new arrangement of tricks and tools. I felt like a scout sneaking through enemy territory and helping the locals endure the ongoing war.

I'm a roleplayer. I'm a PVE player. I only return to Cyrodiil and IC nowadays to join the Mayhem event, which is one of my favorites btw, and have a bit of a break from the 'Belkarth-Grinder-Mindset'.

Whenever my casual pve-self joins random dungeons and trials nowadays, I'm baffled about the amount of players that spend enough time on this game to reach 2000CP and still don't know all the things that a couple weeks in PvP territory had taught me. Skills that Cyrodiil forced me to acquire in order to finish my goal without being frustrating, annoying or 'unplayable'.

Basic combat skills.

Something the new tutorial on Balfiera doesn't seem to communicate as properly as it should.

And one last thing:

'Play how you want' doesn't mean 'Don't give a damn and expect success'.
This might sound harsh to some people, but that's simply how it is. This MMO doesn't have a difficulty slider but it offers a wild arrangement of activities that fit everybodies willingly given efforts to play the game accordingly.
We are all met with the same choices: Adapt to the new section of the game you show interest in or stick to the parts you're already good at.

When I see people proudly state that they are good enough at the game to finish a DLC dungeon in veteran mode with only 2 players, but can't manage to figure out how to survive Cyrodiil, which takes less time and transmute crystals by the way, then I really question the legitimacy of these posts. Cyrodiil nor the Imperial City require a PVE-mode. But if you need help to learn how to adapt to the 'New Zone', feel free to send me a message. I'd be more than happy to help you adapt to your new found threat. And surely the majority of PvP-Players is too.


I really wish the forums would show more "How do I adapt to XY?" threats than pure "This is too hard!" threats, it puts the game in a bad place. PvP is in a bad place already, it doesn't need less but requires more encouragement!

Kendaric

VaranisArano wrote: »

Despite the periodic complaints from players who realize that getting their skyshards requires them to participate in the Alliance War and that achievements like Master Angler do require them to engage with the whole of the base game which includes PvPvE Cyrodiil, there are still many players who go into PVP zones to quest, get the Alliance War Skill Line, get achievements, and then leave.

Skyshards don't require you to PvP at all, just have 3 low level alts (one for each faction) and get the skyshards in the sub-50 campaign. After having each set of skyshards unlocked, buy them for in clown store. Especially outside a given servers prime time.

Braffin

Kendaric wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Despite the periodic complaints from players who realize that getting their skyshards requires them to participate in the Alliance War and that achievements like Master Angler do require them to engage with the whole of the base game which includes PvPvE Cyrodiil, there are still many players who go into PVP zones to quest, get the Alliance War Skill Line, get achievements, and then leave.

Skyshards don't require you to PvP at all, just have 3 low level alts (one for each faction) and get the skyshards in the sub-50 campaign. After having each set of skyshards unlocked, buy them for in clown store. Especially outside a given servers prime time.

That holds true for the skyshards behind the alliances gates. To get the rest of them you'll have to leave your alliance base and therefore will be vulnerable to attacks from other players. So you participate in PvP regardless if an actual attack happens or not.

Kendaric

Braffin wrote: »

That holds true for the skyshards behind the alliances gates. To get the rest of them you'll have to leave your alliance base and therefore will be vulnerable to attacks from other players. So you participate in PvP regardless if an actual attack happens or not.

Aren't all of the faction-based shards behind the alliance gates?

I'm honestly not sure, I've only set foot into Cyrodiil a few times since release and even then only to PvE. But according to my achievements I should have all of them (except the DC ones, but that's because I don't have a DC alt currently).

Also, I don't consider just being in a PvP zone actual participation in PvP activities. And let's face it, the daily town quests are purely PvE.

Tarloch_S

VaranisArano wrote: »

Now, I want you to consider a PVE-only campaign where all those people who are willing to casually queue up for PVP Cyrodiil and Imperial City to get what they want can get that stuff easier and quicker.

Suddenly, the vast majority of those players who are already willing to participate in PVP just won't anymore because they have an easier option.

That's bad. That's bad for PVP because there's no casual introduction to it anymore. That's bad for PVP because our rewards were made easier by not participating. That's actually bad for ZOS because now players who would've participated with all aspects of ESO are able to avoid part of it.

What if the PVE campaign disabled event tickets and achievement rewards, would there be an issue then?

I personally do not place value on my achievements by what others do. I couldn't care less it some [SNIP] uses a 1 bar build in a PVE Cyrodiil to get her achievements...it will not diminish my choice to go into PVP Cyrodiil and get them. Nor would it change or diminish any choice I make to challenge myself.

What about the flip side of PVE people not taking space in the PVP que? I've seen so many complaints in game (and this thread) about que times and server load? (last event I queued was 55 mins) . Based on this information, giving people who only want the PVE aspect a separate space hypothetically would benefit the PVP community as the server load and que times would decrease. Right?

If the survival of the PVP portion of this game depends on what you described (basically goading players to endure to get rewards, in the hopes that some tiny portion will like it enough to stay (if I'm reading that correctly)… then it may be that PVP is already doomed and they might be better off scrapping it and pouring those resources into the PVE game.?

TaSheen

There's only a couple or three within the faction gates; the rest are in "open Cyrodiil" which requires paying attention to which faction controls what when trying to get the rest of them.

I don't know that I think it's any easier on lowbies in the under 50 campaign, though usually that one doesn't seem to have more than one bar each faction.

Braffin

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

That holds true for the skyshards behind the alliances gates. To get the rest of them you'll have to leave your alliance base and therefore will be vulnerable to attacks from other players. So you participate in PvP regardless if an actual attack happens or not.

Aren't all of the faction-based shards behind the alliance gates?

I'm honestly not sure, I've only set foot into Cyrodiil a few times since release and even then only to PvE. But according to my achievements I should have all of them (except the DC ones, but that's because I don't have a DC alt currently).

Also, I don't consider just being in a PvP zone actual participation in PvP activities. And let's face it, the daily town quests are purely PvE.

Only 2 shards are behind the gates per alliance, most of them are out in open territory as far as I remember. But it has been a few years since I collected them tbh.

I can't share your opinion about "pure PvE" tho. As long as you're in a PvP zone, you are participating in a way. I give you an example: When I see a player of an enemy alliance fishing I regularly join, so we can fish together. Sometimes I get attacked tho, the very moment I show myself. That's the difference to a pure PvE zone. The possibility is always there.

Additionally three of the towns (Bruma, Cropsford, Vlastarus) are "AvA towns" which can be captured by the alliances since update 11 to further interlock PvE and PvP activities in cyrodiil.

Of course not everybody in cyrodiil is actively fighting enemy players all the time, not even the most hardcore PvPers. It's about the openness to let these fights happen, most of the time actual fights are avoidable easily offside the hot-spots. The only exception to this rule are events.

Necrotech_Master

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

That holds true for the skyshards behind the alliances gates. To get the rest of them you'll have to leave your alliance base and therefore will be vulnerable to attacks from other players. So you participate in PvP regardless if an actual attack happens or not.

Aren't all of the faction-based shards behind the alliance gates?

I'm honestly not sure, I've only set foot into Cyrodiil a few times since release and even then only to PvE. But according to my achievements I should have all of them (except the DC ones, but that's because I don't have a DC alt currently).

Also, I don't consider just being in a PvP zone actual participation in PvP activities. And let's face it, the daily town quests are purely PvE.

only 2 of them are behind gates that need to be opened, the shards are usually near the elder scroll temples (the gates are opened after you capture the keeps near the gates, for example to get behind the AD gates you would have to capture castle faregyl and then either castle black boot or bloodmayne to get access to the respective gate)

2 of those, per faction

the rest of them you dont need to get behind any kind of locked gates to access

Braffin

Tarloch_S wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Now, I want you to consider a PVE-only campaign where all those people who are willing to casually queue up for PVP Cyrodiil and Imperial City to get what they want can get that stuff easier and quicker.

Suddenly, the vast majority of those players who are already willing to participate in PVP just won't anymore because they have an easier option.

That's bad. That's bad for PVP because there's no casual introduction to it anymore. That's bad for PVP because our rewards were made easier by not participating. That's actually bad for ZOS because now players who would've participated with all aspects of ESO are able to avoid part of it.

What if the PVE campaign disabled event tickets and achievement rewards, would there be an issue then?

I personally do not place value on my achievements by what others do. I could care less it some chick with Cerebral palsy uses a 1 bar build in a PVE Cyrodiil to get her achievements...it will not diminish my choice to go into PVP Cyrodiil and get them. Nor would it change or diminish any choice I make to challenge myself.

What about the flip side of PVE people not taking space in the PVP que? I've seen so many complaints in game (and this thread) about que times and server load? (last event I queued was 55 mins) . Based on this information, giving people who only want the PVE aspect a separate space hypothetically would benefit the PVP community as the server load and que times would decrease. Right?

If the survival of the PVP portion of this game depends on what you described (basically goading players to endure to get rewards, in the hopes that some tiny portion will like it enough to stay (if I'm reading that correctly)… then it may be that PVP is already doomed and they might be better off scrapping it and pouring those resources into the PVE game.?

Yes, there is indeed a problem with your suggestion: Zos stated clearly, that they have no intention to split the playerbase again, after they united it with one tamriel. That's easily verifiable and is used as common argument against veteran overland instances, roleplay instances and so on. Your suggestion is exactly that: A split of the playerbase, so it's out of the question till zos decides to overthink their general policy.

Additionally I see a contradiction in your argumentation: On the one side you assert, that nobody, aside a few hardcore PvPers, is interested in PvP anymore and therefore it would be benefical to the game to split PvP and PvE completely. On the other side we see a large amount of participation (even in active PvP participation) if the rewards are appealing enough. So there is simply no need to waste development resources to create a PvE Cyrodiil/IC, it would be enough to provide better rewards and people will participate.

Your last paragraph makes no sense at all: Of course players are interested in rewards, that's the very nature of an online game for a lot of players. Let's look at daily writs for example, thousands upon thousands people do their writs every day. Why is that? Do they like being in a crafting menu? For the majority that's unlikely. They do it for the rewards exclusively. So, shall we remove crafting? Or is it better to implement more attractive rewards to PvP?

Tarloch_S

Braffin wrote: »

Your last paragraph makes no sense at all: Of course players are interested in rewards, that's the very nature of an online game for a lot of players. Let's look at daily writs for example, thousands upon thousands people do their writs every day. Why is that? Do they like being in a crafting menu? For the majority that's unlikely. They do it for the rewards exclusively. So, shall we remove crafting? Or is it better to implement more attractive rewards to PvP?

This makes no sense as my last paragraph did not imply what you are saying. It referenced another posters argument and I merely say that if that's the case then it may be doomed. :shrug: Maybe some communication confusion with us, but I hear what you are saying.

Personally I'm not driven to do things in any game for a reward. I'm driven to do things I enjoy. If that reaps some kind of in game reward great...if not I could care less. If a reward is locked behind an activity I do not enjoy, I just don't get the reward. I'm sure as heck not going to pay someone to do activities in my free time that I do not enjoy...for any reason.

VaranisArano

Kendaric wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Despite the periodic complaints from players who realize that getting their skyshards requires them to participate in the Alliance War and that achievements like Master Angler do require them to engage with the whole of the base game which includes PvPvE Cyrodiil, there are still many players who go into PVP zones to quest, get the Alliance War Skill Line, get achievements, and then leave.

Skyshards don't require you to PvP at all, just have 3 low level alts (one for each faction) and get the skyshards in the sub-50 campaign. After having each set of skyshards unlocked, buy them for in clown store. Especially outside a given servers prime time.

That's a fair point now that we have Account-wide Achievements.

Getting the other skyshards still requires the risk of PVP, even if you don't directly engage.

VaranisArano

Tarloch_S wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Now, I want you to consider a PVE-only campaign where all those people who are willing to casually queue up for PVP Cyrodiil and Imperial City to get what they want can get that stuff easier and quicker.

Suddenly, the vast majority of those players who are already willing to participate in PVP just won't anymore because they have an easier option.

That's bad. That's bad for PVP because there's no casual introduction to it anymore. That's bad for PVP because our rewards were made easier by not participating. That's actually bad for ZOS because now players who would've participated with all aspects of ESO are able to avoid part of it.

What if the PVE campaign disabled event tickets and achievement rewards, would there be an issue then?

I personally do not place value on my achievements by what others do. I could care less it some chick with Cerebral palsy uses a 1 bar build in a PVE Cyrodiil to get her achievements...it will not diminish my choice to go into PVP Cyrodiil and get them. Nor would it change or diminish any choice I make to challenge myself.

What about the flip side of PVE people not taking space in the PVP que? I've seen so many complaints in game (and this thread) about que times and server load? (last event I queued was 55 mins) . Based on this information, giving people who only want the PVE aspect a separate space hypothetically would benefit the PVP community as the server load and que times would decrease. Right?

If the survival of the PVP portion of this game depends on what you described (basically goading players to endure to get rewards, in the hopes that some tiny portion will like it enough to stay (if I'm reading that correctly)… then it may be that PVP is already doomed and they might be better off scrapping it and pouring those resources into the PVE game.?

I've talked about this on other threads with this topic, but I'm okay with a "Quest-only" version of PvPvE zones for players who want to quest risk-free. All other rewards, gear, tickets, achievements, skyshards, fish, etc. would be disabled. Just questing for the story. I'm a TES player too. I can respect people who just want to experience the story for themselves like this was a true TES game without PVP.

Thing is, most people immediately quibble with me because they actually want some of those rewards too, risk-free.

......

Now, I also talked a lot about participation.

Unlike some PVPers, I'm thrilled to see people who may not stay in PVP come to Cyrodiil and Imperial City to try it out and get the rewards they want. You're here to fish? Fantastic - that was me, years ago. You're here to get your daily quest done and get out? Splendid, hope you have a fun time. You're here to run around in the zerg even though you're squishy and have no clue? Welcome to the club, we all get started somewhere!

As I stated, it's a good thing for ESO when players casually engage with all the content. It's a good thing for PVP specifically when most players have at least a little bit of PVP experience even if it is just "I did my scouting mission and hightailed it outta there."

So I do not regard players who are willing to queue up for PVP Cyrodiil and Imperial City as wasted queue spots, even if they are trying to avoid PVP as best they can. Remember that some of those players may eventually come around to casually playing PVP and a few will become hard-core players. Most won't, some will. So I try to be welcoming and share what I've learned about PVP over the years, such as in my guide here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/637267/whitestrakes-mayhem-101-june-july-2023

I DO think your proposed Civilians who are exempt from participating in PVP would be a waste of queue slots. They are actively refusing to engage in the purpose of the zone, which is why I said a PVE-only zone would be less problematic (but still harmful for non-queue related reasons.)

.........

Finally, I figured we were going to get to the "Why not just scrap PVP?" part of the argument eventually.

I can appreciate that you dislike PVP, so you think that's an acceptable solution. After all, it's no skin off your back.

Let me reframe the situation. ZOS benefits from having PVP to compete with other MMORPGs that offer both game modes. ZOS benefits from balancing PVP and PVE together. ZOS benefits from players experiencing as much if the game as possible, which is why stuff like Events and Endeavors ask players to do different stuff like overland content, thieving, murdering, group dungeons, and trials. If you'd like I can elaborate on these points in a different wall of text. Sorry, I'm long-winded enough already.

As an example of this, I want to note that players have complained about being "forced" to do Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests during those events. Players have complained about being "forced" to do group dungeons during the Undaunted Event. And every single Whitestrake's Mayhem and Anniversary Event, players have complained about being "forced" to risk PVP. This is not new. This is not limited to PVP.

ZOS doesn't really care enough to change those events. Why not? Because "goading" and "forcing" and encouraging players to do different content by dangling a carrot on a stick is a good way to get players to try all aspects of their game. Maybe they'll discover they like it and thus sink more hours into the game. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll gripe and moan and participate anyway. Maybe they'll even pay money to get the reward without having to do the content they don't like. It's called leveraging FOMO (fear of missing out) to get players out of their comfort zone.

While getting out of our comfort zone is not always a fun experience, it's good for the overall health of the game.


(And if you're thinking, "Wow, what a long-winded salty PVPer..." fair enough, but also Pepperidge Farm remembers how the Housing Community wanted easier options when ZOS made a Nord Fishing Boat furnishing that required the Kyne's Aegis Conqueror achievement from the Vet KA trial.)

Galiferno

SimonThesis wrote: »

A simpler solution is you just make a decent pvp build and run in cyrodiil with some friends also in pvp builds and have fun pvping.

People need to stop going into pvp areas solo without pvp builds and expecting good results. You would look at someone funny if they went into a vet trial solo without a build and then complained about it, its the same for pvp.

I wish PVPers would bring this mentality to vet dlc dungeons when they need gear. Instead I have to deal with plenty of them doing any of the roles extremely poorly in their PVP builds and still expecting us to hand over our gear even though we carried them hard, and they wouldn't have cleared without us. Just like PVEers shouldn't complain about getting killed in PVP zones, PVPers shouldn't be surprised when they get kicked from vet dungeons for mooching off players equipped for PVE.

ZOS_Suserial

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Braffin

Tarloch_S wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Your last paragraph makes no sense at all: Of course players are interested in rewards, that's the very nature of an online game for a lot of players. Let's look at daily writs for example, thousands upon thousands people do their writs every day. Why is that? Do they like being in a crafting menu? For the majority that's unlikely. They do it for the rewards exclusively. So, shall we remove crafting? Or is it better to implement more attractive rewards to PvP?

This makes no sense as my last paragraph did not imply what you are saying. It referenced another posters argument and I merely say that if that's the case then it may be doomed. :shrug: Maybe some communication confusion with us, but I hear what you are saying.

Personally I'm not driven to do things in any game for a reward. I'm driven to do things I enjoy. If that reaps some kind of in game reward great...if not I could care less. If a reward is locked behind an activity I do not enjoy, I just don't get the reward. I'm sure as heck not going to pay someone to do activities in my free time that I do not enjoy...for any reason.

Well, I share your point of view regarding rewards. Personally I also don't get it why a lot of people try to do content they don't enjoy just for the sake of some digital remuneration. I never would.

Thing is, it's a reality for a whole bunch of people, as we see every day ingame as well as on forums. Also most complaints are about "being forced" to do something unenjoyable to get the desired shiny at the end, especially regarding PvP (and PvE endgame of course). That's not an issue with the game in my opinion but human error. That's why I oppose your suggested changes. I simply refuse to destroy a working system just to cater to behaviour I can't describe in any other term than narrowminded greed.

I think @VaranisArano described very well the mechanics to "lure" people in trying out something, and I'm convinced that's a good thing. I discovered PvP the same way back in 2014 (The heck, I discovered the joy of online games in general this way. I got lured into it, or let's say I was invited to try it out.) and still play it casually on occassion. This system should be extended, not gutted.

I'm sure this opportunity for the many "silent" gamers outweights the complaints of some unsatisfied players by far. Especially when we consider, that a lot of the ranting we witness(particulary during events) isn't caused by an utter rejection in general, but includes a lot of hot temper due to failed expectations. Nobody enjoys to die, nonetheless that's part of the learning process, in PvP and in any other part of a video game.

I hope this helps a bit in removing the communication confusion the two of us definitely have

That said, I would support a PvE instance of Cyrodiil and IC, so that people may quest and explore this zones, but with deactivated achievements, shards, rewards and so on. A honest question: Do you think that would satisfy the people which try to enforce PvE Cyrodiil for literally 10 years meanwhile? I don't think so, because I'm convinced they are after the rewards.

VaranisArano

Galiferno wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

A simpler solution is you just make a decent pvp build and run in cyrodiil with some friends also in pvp builds and have fun pvping.

People need to stop going into pvp areas solo without pvp builds and expecting good results. You would look at someone funny if they went into a vet trial solo without a build and then complained about it, its the same for pvp.

I wish PVPers would bring this mentality to vet dlc dungeons when they need gear. Instead I have to deal with plenty of them doing any of the roles extremely poorly in their PVP builds and still expecting us to hand over our gear even though we carried them hard, and they wouldn't have cleared without us. Just like PVEers shouldn't complain about getting killed in PVP zones, PVPers shouldn't be surprised when they get kicked from vet dungeons for mooching off players equipped for PVE.

As a PVPer who has PVE builds for PVE content, yes, they should.

I'm a firm believer that being prepared for the content makes for a better experience, whatever that content is.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Just go to Cyrodiil with a High Health build, if people attack you they won't beable to kill you and will just be wasting their time.

SaffronCitrusflower

belial5221_ESO wrote: »

I dunno why they don't make the non-banner cities safezones for questing.One in AD territory would be nice,then we'd have chorrol DC,cheydinhal EP,and a third for AD.Then all the rest of areas could be same same as usual.This would allow PVEers to babystep into PVP and wouldn't cut players from PVP events.

There are flags and respawn points in the three main "towns", so they can't remove the PvP from them.

Tarloch_S

Braffin wrote: »

[A honest question: Do you think that would satisfy the people which try to enforce PvE Cyrodiil for literally 10 years meanwhile? I don't think so, because I'm convinced they are after the rewards.

Oh I am convinced that people are people and you can't win either way.

SaffronCitrusflower

Galiferno wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

A simpler solution is you just make a decent pvp build and run in cyrodiil with some friends also in pvp builds and have fun pvping.

People need to stop going into pvp areas solo without pvp builds and expecting good results. You would look at someone funny if they went into a vet trial solo without a build and then complained about it, its the same for pvp.

I wish PVPers would bring this mentality to vet dlc dungeons when they need gear. Instead I have to deal with plenty of them doing any of the roles extremely poorly in their PVP builds and still expecting us to hand over our gear even though we carried them hard, and they wouldn't have cleared without us. Just like PVEers shouldn't complain about getting killed in PVP zones, PVPers shouldn't be surprised when they get kicked from vet dungeons for mooching off players equipped for PVE.

This is not a scenario that actually happens with any kind of regularity at all. When people are farming gear they almost always run normal level because it's faster and easier. In normal level dungeons roles don't matter near as much and there is not "being carried" situation going on.