Civilian mode in Alliance war? Perhaps PVE Campaigns?

Tarloch_S

Civilian noun a person who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization. Maybe Citizen is a more appropriate tag as in game that's what you are before being forced as a volunteer?

Proposal noun a plan or suggestion, especially a formal or written one, put forward for consideration or discussion by others.
====== Not to be confused with: ======
Request noun an act of asking politely or formally for something.
Desired outcome: Inspire a discussion about the subject matters plausibility, feasibility and overall positive or negative impact it could have on the community.

Proposal: By adding a Civilian option you would be opening areas of the game to a population of players who choose not to experience them rather than be forced to endure a playstyle they do not enjoy and participate in a war they may not support. Currently you enter as a Citizen and are forced to become enlisted as a Volunteer (active duty with a military) and deemed the enemy by other alliances. All activities/rewards coded around the war (PVP) would be unavailable to a Civilian.

Would you be in favor of a Civilian mode in the Alliance War? Would opening the war to PVE civilian players take anything away from the PVP player? Why or why not?

Some thoughts:

1. Allow players to join a campaign (locked for it's entirety) as a Civilian.

2. A Civilian can still be attacked and killed by soldiers but the offender would be marked as a "War criminal" and suffer some form of critically severe punishment to dissuade such behavior.

3. "War criminal" - What should the punishment be if any?

4. How to prevent antagonists from posing as a Civilian and trying to gank Soldiers into a kill?

• Civilian tag should be Very distinguishable.
• Delayed damage? Perhaps it takes multiple attacks with almost no damage to start the kill process?
• Civilian can't cause damage to soldiers?

5. Combat between 2 players marked as "Civilian" would be controlled by the duel code currently in place.

6. Marked civilians have no alliance thus allowing travel through all areas?

• Maybe, quests that let you acquire travel papers to navigate zones not in your alliance origin?

SimonThesis

A simpler solution is you just make a decent pvp build and run in cyrodiil with some friends also in pvp builds and have fun pvping.

People need to stop going into pvp areas solo without pvp builds and expecting good results. You would look at someone funny if they went into a vet trial solo without a build and then complained about it, its the same for pvp.

Jaimeh

Would the civilian be counted in the population of the campaign? Would they take a queue spot from a PvPer? Would they make performance in Cyrodiil worse?

phaneub17_ESO

Collateral Damage. That's what I'm hearing.

chessalavakia_ESO

Cyrodiil has performance issues that having civilians in the campaign could make worse.

It's reasonably likely that you'd have some Cyrodiil residents using civilian alts to spy/be annoying. For example, imagine how annoying it would be if you had a bunch of Civilians outside of a keep playing the Trumpet solo.

If you have a major penalty, it's likely that some civilians would deliberately attempt to be attacked to cause the penalty to be applied to the Pvpers.

If it's a minor penalty for attacking civilians it's likely that players will still do so.

Civilians could also present a distraction for the factions as some players may stop helping their faction to instead go kill civilians.

Lorewise, I'm not sure the factions would actually care that much about killing civilians. While Bravil was considered problematic in many other areas you'll see that the residents don't feel the factions care about harm befalling them.

Ankael07

[snip] nobody is ''forcing you to endure pvp''. Cyrodiil is a map with specific rules to cater to specific type of players. If you dont like it dont join.

[Edited for baiting]

TaSheen

If you want whatever from Cyrodiil, you'll have to risk the pvp. Except for fishing, the only place I go in Cyro or IC is DC home base because that's where I can buy Dawn Prism and Hakeijo. I quit pvp completely after I quit WoW and RIFT, and I won't be doing it ever again.

I'll be starting master angler on my newest account (AFTER MYM for obvious reasons). My previous 4 master anglers, I got through Cyro without any deaths at all. But if these two die while fishing, it's still no big deal. Other than fishing, there's not enough going on in Cyro for there to be any need to make a pve instance, or "citizen/civilian status". It's a huge empty zone. There's a few delves, a few dolmens, some 'town nostalgia" for those of us who've played (and I'm still playing) Oblivion. That's it.

ProudMary

Please no thank you. Look what happened just from ZOS messing with the campaign duration code. Now the scoreboard doesn't even work. I shudder to think what might break if they try to implement some kind of new system like this.

disintegr8

Easier option is to stay out of Cyrodiil.

SimonThesis

[snip]

Pvp is endgame content, people need an actual pvp build and/or a pvp group.

[removed quote and edited for baiting]

Braffin

Sure, you shall have that.

Right after we got a veteran overland, a few updates to dedicated PvPers and stable servers.

And of course civilians can't clear out delves and anchors (that's a warrior's job) or collect skyshards.

kargen27

Outside of special events you will find you can usually PvE in Cyrodiil with little or no interruption. The PvP crowd is busy with PvP. During the event you find other PvE'rs taking advantage of easy targets to get kills they can't get the rest of the year.

Going to Cyrodiil for PvE objectives for many players is their first introduction to PvP. Some decide they like it and stick around. PvP needs players new to PvP to join in. Allowing players to enter into Cyrodiil but opt out of being attacked by other players takes away from new players experiencing what can be a very fun part of the game.

This idea beyond taking population spots and performance issues isn't good for the long term health of PvP.

For this event on my 2nd account I loaded all my characters up with quests so all I need to do is turn them in. Several of my characters are low level so I use the below 50 campaign for them. I did the Imperial City quest ported to Cyrodiil and did a daily there. I then parked by the NPC so all I have to do is log in, turn in, port to Imperial City, turn in and leave.

Most my characters didn't see another player the whole time doing the quests. That is a shame really for Imperial City as it means that zone isn't getting the attention it deserves. It can be a really fun place when players are active in the districts.

Hapexamendios

A battlefield is no place fir a civilian so this mode makes no sense.

Janni

I like this idea. Can we also have a pacifist mode in games like Doom? I just want to walk around and not have to shoot any demons cause I don't really want to play the game at all.

VaranisArano

Tarloch_S wrote: »

All activities/rewards coded around the war (PVP) would be unavailable to a Civilian.

First up, let's clarify that literally everything in Cyrodiil is coded around the war. Its a PvPvE zone. Its all designed to promote conflict.

• Skyshards require going deep into enemy territory, passing through enemy held chokepoints, and 4 of those skyshard require that your alliance captures at least two keeps in order to open the gate to the scroll temple that its next to.
• Fish require going deep into enemy territory or passing through enemy held chokepoints.
• Dolmens can reward coldfire siege.
• Town quests reward AP.
• Three of the towns are Alliance War outposts with transit shrines. The other two are along scroll running routes.
• Delves, including the delves featured in town quests, grant an AP blessing called the Blessing of War.
• Achievements like Tamriel Skyshard Hunter are clearly intended to be done with the risk of PVP in Cyrodiil, and are rewarded for experiencing the entire game.

So, uh, exactly which rewards do you still think that your "Civilians" are going to earn once you've removed all the activities/rewards coded around the war?

Tarloch_S wrote: »

Would opening the war to PVE civilian players take anything away from the PVP player? Why or why not?

This might surprise you, but yes. Giving Civilian players those rewards listed above would harm PVP players. (I know, I know, if we take your request at face value they won't get any of those rewards since they are all PVP rewards and tied to the Alliance War...but I've been around the block with these discussions to guess that most people who request this sort of thing actually really want the skyshards, fish, achievements, etc.)

I'm one of the players who hated Cyrodiil when I started playing ESO and only went there for the Master Angler fish, and I still hated it. Not so much that I didn't go back when I wanted my skyshards though. Eventually I went back for PVP itself, but had there been a safe PVE-only way to get what I wanted, I would've taken the easy way out.

Now, not every player is going to decide they like PVP. Many never will. But every player who goes to Cyrodiil, tries it out, and learns something about PVP or decides its tolerable or decides "Yeah, I'll go participate in Whitestrakes Mayhem twice a year" is a win for ZOS.

Giving players an easy way out takes that away. It removes a major way that players who don't ordinarily PVP go to PVP for the stuff they want, even if it is a twice a year "Get in, grab my event tickets, get out" sort of experience.

Moreover, if you give PVPers an easy way to get their skyshards, their fish, their coldfire siege, and the like, you'll see even PVPers taking that easy option. Why? Because its easier. And each player who takes the easy option is one less PVPer playing PVP.



From a PVP perspective, the rest of your suggestion is a mess.

1. Civilians will take up space in the main campaigns, which already had their population slashed because the servers can't handle regular PVP battles. This will harm performance AND it will take away slots from players who want to PVP.

2. Have you considered that PVPers might mark one of their characters as Civilians in order to spy on enemy Alliances?

3. Any sort of ability to kill Civilians is not going to satisfy the players who just want a safe, PVE-only experience.

Honestly, adding a PVE-only campaign would be less harmful than Civilians running around in the regular PVP campaigns (though still harmful for the reasons I listed above.)

ezmaye

The biggest issue with requests like these is there is no thought around how this can be abused. All of sudden we'd have so many civillian spies running around, calling out what the other side is doing. Or a whole bunch of co-ordinated civilians taking the spots off of PVPers so their faction can bulldoze the map.

The best thing for PVE'ers to do is the choose a low pop campaign, stay away from keeps and avoid MYM. That's what I did when I started and eventually I braved PVP when keeps would light and now I am 100% pvp only.

There are so many builds online with gear that is easy to get or buy, and with lots of practice you'll end up getting the hang of it!

Tarloch_S

Jaimeh wrote: »

Would the civilian be counted in the population of the campaign? Would they take a queue spot from a PvPer? Would they make performance in Cyrodiil worse?

Civilians would not be added to the PVP que nor campaign. As for performance I imagine nobody can definitively answer that question.

Braffin wrote: »

And of course civilians can't clear out delves and anchors (that's a warrior's job) or collect skyshards.

Being a warrior does not mean you have to be ok with being conscripted into a war you want no part of or excluded from activities that are PVE activities.

For those who have and choose going forward not not add anything to the proposal in the spirit of the objective I say. [snip] Enlightening right off the bat to say the least.
I've been playing for years and as you see...


Cyrodiil poses no obstacles for me. I have however met countless numbers of people who feel precisely as describe by the proposal. Being new to the forum, I thought to present the idea and see if there were any intelligent responses or if this was yet another social media outlet I would abandon to mediocrity.

Edited for Baiting

markulrich1966

simply choose a side-campaign that is dominated by your faction.

The low-pop campaigns often have all keeps conquerored by red, blue or yellow, allowing you to explore cyrodiil without PVP.

ZOS_Kraken

Hello,

we know people will not always agree and many of you will share different opinions, but please remember that being rude to your fellow community members is against our forum rules and not in the spirit of our game.

VaranisArano

Tarloch_S wrote: »

For those who have and choose going forward not not add anything to the proposal in the spirit of the objective I say. Narrow minded self centered people are such a bore. Enlightening right off the bat to say the least.

I have however met countless numbers of people who feel precisely as describe by the proposal. Being new to the forum, I thought to present the idea and see if there were any intelligent responses or if this was yet another social media outlet I would abandon to mediocrity.

I'm not new to the forum. I can safely say that you're right that there are plenty of players who are interested in a PVE-only option for Cyrodiil. It's an evergreen, recurring topic that frequently comes up every time ZOS puts a desirable reward in Cyrodiil, Imperial City or a new player decides that now they want their skyshards. In fact, as I noted, I believe that even PVPers would use a PVE-only option to get their achievements because it's easier.

However, I note that despite these many requests ZOS has never suggested they'll make changes to PvPvE zones to remove PVP. ZOS continues to run Whitestrake's Mayhem twice a year. Plenty of otherwise PVE-only players are willing to casually PVP for event rewards. ZOS also profits from those who'd rather buy their event tickets/skyshards/Alliance War Skill Lines than risk PVP. So leaving aside the harm done to PVP, there's not a lot of incentive for ZOS to cut off their own revenue stream with a PVE-only option.

Finally, I'll note that just disagreement does not necessarily mean narrow-minded, self-centered, or unintelligent. These forums work better when we do each other the favor of presuming good faith.

Braffin

Tarloch_S wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

And of course civilians can't clear out delves and anchors (that's a warrior's job) or collect skyshards.

Being a warrior does not mean you have to be ok with being conscripted into a war you want no part of or excluded from activities that are PVE activities.

Being a warrior in a warzone makes you a legitimate target. What you're asking for is practically PvE Cyrodiil, which has been discussed and discarded for almost ten years now.

[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

MrGarlic

PvP is NOT endgame as described somewhere above. We have below 50 campaigns and new players are encouraged to PvP in Cyro and battlegrounds.

Most of the quests in Cyro are focussed on wartime story, especially the quests you pick up outside the quest hubs.

I have collected all the skyshards in Cyro on multiple characters and while I did die a few times to PvPers while in delves, the majority of people I met in there from other factions were doing the same as me and we avoided each other, jumped up and down to recognise our presence and even waved emotes.

What I am trying to say is that Cyro isn't really that bad if you just want to PvE there.

And yes I do also have Master Angler, which if you want a tip, is best done with an Aldmeri character so you can get to the saltwater section easier.

I don't like PvP and I avoid it but I do love the map of Cyrodiil. Part of the thrill-of-the-game is to try to avoid being sighted by the enemy.

Tarloch_S

VaranisArano wrote: »

Finally, I'll note that just disagreement does not necessarily mean narrow-minded, self-centered, or unintelligent. These forums work better when we do each other the favor of presuming good faith.

Not agreeing or adding anything of value is one thing, blatant disregard for the spirit of a discussion with a statement that attempts to belittle or delegitimize a narrative is another matter thus the statement. You can choose to ignore that or point it out. Neither is wrong, one is just more uncomfortable than the other.

TaSheen

MrGarlic wrote: »

And yes I do also have Master Angler, which if you want a tip, is best done with an Aldmeri character so you can get to the saltwater section easier.

But now with AWA, you don't even have to fish on just one character do you? Legit question - because I just don't mess much with achievements (though yeah, I love master angler for the boat).

Braffin

TaSheen wrote: »

MrGarlic wrote: »

And yes I do also have Master Angler, which if you want a tip, is best done with an Aldmeri character so you can get to the saltwater section easier.

But now with AWA, you don't even have to fish on just one character do you? Legit question - because I just don't mess much with achievements (though yeah, I love master angler for the boat).

No, you don't have to. All fishing achievements are accountwide.

MrGarlic

TaSheen wrote: »

MrGarlic wrote: »

And yes I do also have Master Angler, which if you want a tip, is best done with an Aldmeri character so you can get to the saltwater section easier.

But now with AWA, you don't even have to fish on just one character do you? Legit question - because I just don't mess much with achievements (though yeah, I love master angler for the boat).

Good question. I have no idea. I finished my master angler in 2017, long before AwA. I did use an Aldmeri character.

TaSheen

Braffin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

MrGarlic wrote: »

And yes I do also have Master Angler, which if you want a tip, is best done with an Aldmeri character so you can get to the saltwater section easier.

But now with AWA, you don't even have to fish on just one character do you? Legit question - because I just don't mess much with achievements (though yeah, I love master angler for the boat).

No, you don't have to. All fishing achievements are accountwide.

I thought that might be it. I did my other 4 on AD characters for the reason MrGarlic gave, but my mains on the new account are (as all the others) Redguard Wardens, so DC.

MrGarlic wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

But now with AWA, you don't even have to fish on just one character do you? Legit question - because I just don't mess much with achievements (though yeah, I love master angler for the boat).

Good question. I have no idea. I finished my master angler in 2017, long before AwA. I did use an Aldmeri character.

See just above - seems like it's different now due to AWA. I finished my first 4 in early 2019.

Braffin

TaSheen wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

MrGarlic wrote: »

And yes I do also have Master Angler, which if you want a tip, is best done with an Aldmeri character so you can get to the saltwater section easier.

But now with AWA, you don't even have to fish on just one character do you? Legit question - because I just don't mess much with achievements (though yeah, I love master angler for the boat).

No, you don't have to. All fishing achievements are accountwide.

I thought that might be it. I did my other 4 on AD characters for the reason MrGarlic gave, but my mains on the new account are (as all the others) Redguard Wardens, so DC.

That was a wise decision. I did my master angler on my pact toon back in 2016, before I left behind my narrowminded one-char-policy a few months later. That saltwater fishing was a thrilling experience. But still, I enjoyed. 😆

TaSheen

I literally had no problems at all in Cyro while fishing on all 4. Various times I was fishing with folks from the other factions; we just fished, and waved. It was all very civilized.

Braffin

Yeah, the actual encounters are indeed mostly civilized. The thrill is more about what could happen.

TaSheen

Well, really - after pvp in WoW and RIFT, it's mostly not much to me any more. I'm just not able (age, bad reflexes, mega ping) to even consider pvp here. And while I DID pvp in those games (even on a pvp server, in a friend's guild in WoW) I just never really found it much fun. So *shrug* - I'm just done with it.