Why don't you think they have/will adjust DK in PVP?

nublife01

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Corrosive needs a nerf. No player should have the ability to bypass enemy resists while simultaneously reducing damage taken to 3% of max health. Pick one or the other: Corrosive Weapon or Corrosive Armor. But not both.

yep on top of that having a near spammable cc that you have to both break free and dodge roll to get out of. class makes sense.

Afterip

I propose to rename the game to DKO (Dragon Knights Online), because DK is the best in pvp, the best in DPS in PVE, the best tanks.And other classes are needed only to heal Dk... Oh wait, DK also THE BEST in self healing.

Galeriano

Thing with the DK is that lot of the class's strenght in PvP comes from the fact everyone is a stage 3 vampire these days. It would be kinda wierd to nerf a class because of that.

bachpain

I like DK where it is. It has a good damage/heal kit as well as cc and some mobility. I would like to see them bring the other classes on par with DK personally! They really aren't super far off either. Just a little neglected in different areas for different classes where DK and even NB and Warden imo also have a very good toolkit across the board for PVP. Though the DK is definitely the easiest to play effectively. The templar, sorc, and poor necros have been pigeon holed into tough corners with small gaps that in the end with PVP make a big difference.

Iriidius

nublife01 wrote: »

i guarentee you nothing will be done about the class. and yes it is brokenly op even for players without skill.

edit: look at fossilize in no cp. you can literally put only tank gear on and just spam that ability on another player and simply win the fight because of the stamina drain that ability by itself does to an enemy. they need a nerf. they have needed a nerf for years. its not going to happen. there are rumors going around on why it wont get nerfed which i cannot discuss on these forums without getting banned.

Dk didnt need a nerf for years, it was only buffed to meta 1,5 years ago and one of the worst classes before.

pedrogonzalez

Delete immobilize from fossilize.
Make 1 morph of corrosive for pen, another one for def.
Done.

nublife01

@Galeriano no its corrosive and fossilize. i personally think corrosive armor is fine. fossilize however has needed a nerf for an eternity. no cc ability should both stun and root you.

Iriidius wrote: »

nublife01 wrote: »

i guarentee you nothing will be done about the class. and yes it is brokenly op even for players without skill.

edit: look at fossilize in no cp. you can literally put only tank gear on and just spam that ability on another player and simply win the fight because of the stamina drain that ability by itself does to an enemy. they need a nerf. they have needed a nerf for years. its not going to happen. there are rumors going around on why it wont get nerfed which i cannot discuss on these forums without getting banned.

Dk didnt need a nerf for years, it was only buffed to meta 1,5 years ago and one of the worst classes before.

yea i know they used to be underpowered. the class is going to be either very underpowered or very overpowered with the fossilize ability in the state that it is in. if you buff dk too much then it will have enough pressure in combination with fossilize such that there is no possible way to fight the class without losing all resources then dying. if they nerf the class too much then it will only be good for this broken cc mechanic. rogues have the same issue in wow. they need to nerf the classes broken cc/resource drain for dk to ever be properly balanced. the way i would personally change the class is make fossilize no longer root you but slows you for 1 second after it is used and make it blockable or only dodgeable and give it a wind up similiar to incap strike. that and add off balance to a different dk ability other than whip. there and boom theres a skill curve to the class and it can actually be balanced.

personally i think dk should have take flight and fossilize swapped. make take flight no longer knock down a target but rather slow them and knock them off balance. that way dk has a 1vx mechanic respective to shadowy disguise and streak that is like a diablo 2 barb's leap in nature and if the tank meta is abolished for a damage meta the class will most certainly not become the trashcan it used to be.

if ^ this change is made then necro and templar are literally the only class left without a 1vx mechanic in wish honestly templar has their ring and necro has corpse healing. they should bring back a movement speed buffed version of og mist form which templar atleast used to use for 1vx kiting and make the necro skill tree synergize best with necro and templar so that theyre not trash in a damage meta. then boom no more tank meta game is fun and requires skill again.

edit: like the changes that need to be made to make pvp as fun as it used to be but not favoring one particular class are so brutally obvious it hurts my soul.

Urzigurumash

pedrogonzalez wrote: »

Make 1 morph of corrosive for pen, another one for def.

I disagree, I think Corrosive should lose its Pen, keep the defense, and have its Poison DoT buffed. It should be closer to Vamp Ult, Goliath, and Sleet Storm than to the now useless Onslaught.

An Ult which gives you Max Pen and nothing else would be just as good on a high speed Bow build as it would on a slow tanky Brawler. It doesn't fit the theme of the class unless it's budgeted only towards tankish melee play.

Galeriano

nublife01 wrote: »

@Galeriano no its corrosive and fossilize. i personally think corrosive armor is fine. fossilize however has needed a nerf for an eternity. no cc ability should both stun and root you.

It really isn't. Fact that everyone is vamp stage 3 gives DK more dmg output than corrosive. Corossive worked like that even in times when stam DK was considered as average and mag DK as garbage.

As for fossilize most of good DKs is using other morph called shattering rocks. That immobilize added by fossilize morph is really not that big of a deal. Stun+root in one ability really isn't that problematic to deal with in today's PvP. Stun itself deserves to be strong since it's a meele single target and expensive ability.

Urzigurumash

I agree with you @Galeriano , I've written no small amount about Undeath+Flame Damage and Corrosive.

My poll which suggests that the revision to World in Ruin and the ubiquity of Undeath have overpowered DK:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/628489/dk-needs-a-13-damage-nerf#latest

In this thread I make long-winded arguments against making Corrosive (which has only been nerfed since its debut in 2016) a purely Offensive morph:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/608013/corrosive-armor-needs-a-nerf#latest

Kartalin

nublife01 wrote: »

the class is going to be either very underpowered or very overpowered with the fossilize ability in the state that it is in. if you buff dk too much then it will have enough pressure in combination with fossilize such that there is no possible way to fight the class without losing all resources then dying.

This is pretty standard in pvp though, comboing your burst with a well timed cc. Sorcs do it with streak, Templars do it with charge/javelin, Nightblades do it with fear or an attack from stealth, Warden's do it with the arctic blast stun....actually I'm not sure what Necros do as far as a class stun that goes off on demand, I guess they do something to not die.

Regardless, this is a staple of well planned and timed pvp damage bursting. So is your complaint about having to break free from fossilize and then remove the root? For what it's worth I use the other morph that only stuns and heals instead of applying a root, and a number of others do the same.

nublife01 wrote: »

edit: look at fossilize in no cp. you can literally put only tank gear on and just spam that ability on another player and simply win the fight because of the stamina drain that ability by itself does to an enemy.

That's a very poor opponent that you can kill just by using fossilize once every seven seconds. They almost health regen enough in that time to negate the damage, unless they're a vampire.

You can't spam cc abilities, they go on cooldown after you cast it. If you don't have enough stam recovery to sustain a break free every seven seconds, then it sounds like a build problem.

OBJnoob

Corrosive: absolutely needs adjusting. Personally I like the idea of one morph being defensive and the other being offensive, but some of the other suggestions are okay too. Honestly if it were as simple as one corrosive DK whipping one person repeatedly then it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that they have a plethora of semi-delayed and bursty AoE Direct Damage to go with it. So they can be in the middle of a scrum so large nobody can honestly be expected to keep track of everyone, pop corrosive, deep breath, spam FoO a couple of times or spin or whatever and just obliterate everyone around them. By themselves, in the hands of some Xers, and most certainly with the help of their team in other situations. All while having insane mitigation from corrosive and freshly topped off resource pools. Corrosive needs to be HEAVILY nerfed. Or FoO needs to stop being a faux-spammable (the first fireballs should come at 5 seconds, not 0 seconds.)

Fossilize does need to be looked at, despite what some others have said. Acting like it's a stam management issue is very disingenuous downplaying of the issue. It hits through block. Hits through dodge. Stuns and immobilizes. If that were it then it'd be fine (not really,) but that isn't it because you're dotted up, taking whips, casting vigor, blocking, and perhaps trying to muster some offense of your own. The stam drain is wickedly OP, and it really doesn't depend on how many people choose the other morph at all. Oh, don't forget it also procs minor Brutality. Probably why people take the heal morph because they don't have barspace for fragmented shield.

The vampire thing? Honestly I'm not too concerned with that. There should be more rock-paper-scissorsy things like that in this game. Let DKs wreck vampires. Just stop letting them wreck everybody. If you don't like taking extra flame damage then stop being a vampire. The pros of Undeath obviously outweigh the cons or everybody and their brother wouldn't still be one. Non-issue.

xDeusEJRx

OBJnoob wrote: »

Corrosive: absolutely needs adjusting. Personally I like the idea of one morph being defensive and the other being offensive, but some of the other suggestions are okay too. Honestly if it were as simple as one corrosive DK whipping one person repeatedly then it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that they have a plethora of semi-delayed and bursty AoE Direct Damage to go with it. So they can be in the middle of a scrum so large nobody can honestly be expected to keep track of everyone, pop corrosive, deep breath, spam FoO a couple of times or spin or whatever and just obliterate everyone around them. By themselves, in the hands of some Xers, and most certainly with the help of their team in other situations. All while having insane mitigation from corrosive and freshly topped off resource pools. Corrosive needs to be HEAVILY nerfed. Or FoO needs to stop being a faux-spammable (the first fireballs should come at 5 seconds, not 0 seconds.)

Fossilize does need to be looked at, despite what some others have said. Acting like it's a stam management issue is very disingenuous downplaying of the issue. It hits through block. Hits through dodge. Stuns and immobilizes. If that were it then it'd be fine (not really,) but that isn't it because you're dotted up, taking whips, casting vigor, blocking, and perhaps trying to muster some offense of your own. The stam drain is wickedly OP, and it really doesn't depend on how many people choose the other morph at all. Oh, don't forget it also procs minor Brutality. Probably why people take the heal morph because they don't have barspace for fragmented shield.

The vampire thing? Honestly I'm not too concerned with that. There should be more rock-paper-scissorsy things like that in this game. Let DKs wreck vampires. Just stop letting them wreck everybody. If you don't like taking extra flame damage then stop being a vampire. The pros of Undeath obviously outweigh the cons or everybody and their brother wouldn't still be one. Non-issue.

Changing fossilize literally won't do anything to most DK's.

What DKs will just do is use the other morph (shattering rocks) and another immobilize one after another. Whether it be ice clench back barred, or Talons. Tons of DK's use shattering rocks and talons because you get the same outcome as fossilIize: Stun and immobilize, while dealing more damage and healing than 1 single fossilize does.

If stam checking your enemy is the goal, it's better to do an immobilize into a stun to make them have to do a break free and a roll, whereas if you use fossilize, they can just break free then immediately use Race against time, or shuffle, or immovable pots/poisons.

So changing fossilize is negligible because you can still get the same effect for very little exchange (the exchanging being 1 extra bar slot).

And it's not like stam checking enemies is only a DK thing, it's possible on other classes if people actually bothered using some of the less used skills. Nightblades could crippling grasp into a fear, Sorc can use mines/encase into streak, Wardens can gripping shards into arctic blast. Lots of people have never even seen these skills and are far more prone to fall victim to them, like players run into Daedric mines like they've never seen the skill before.

The only difference between the immobilizes/stuns DK has versus everyone else is that they're arguably better skills, but I think it's a little ludicrous arguing against his skill when it's not like it's a DK only thing and an impossible feat for anyone else to do.

OBJnoob

I disagree. Barspace is at a premium, as are global cooldowns, and doing them both at once is therefore almost twice as good. Over a longer pressuring fight yes shattering rocks into talons is more damage. But it is not more damage than Fossilize into whip. People don't talons into whip because while yes you CAN just RaT out, depending on the bar you're on, most people will roll out instead which makes your whip miss. The thing about Fossilize is that they're getting whipped while they break free so not only can't they dodge the whil but they can't do anything else either... When it matters.

Talons is a fine skill but I only find barspace for it in larger fights where I'm playing a role. In my generic "do everything" builds I don't really see the point. And if you're like most people trying to corrosive FoO whip somebody the last thing you want to do is immobilize before your big move.

xDeusEJRx

OBJnoob wrote: »

I disagree. Barspace is at a premium, as are global cooldowns, and doing them both at once is therefore almost twice as good. Over a longer pressuring fight yes shattering rocks into talons is more damage. But it is not more damage than Fossilize into whip. People don't talons into whip because while yes you CAN just RaT out, depending on the bar you're on, most people will roll out instead which makes your whip miss. The thing about Fossilize is that they're getting whipped while they break free so not only can't they dodge the whil but they can't do anything else either... When it matters.

Talons is a fine skill but I only find barspace for it in larger fights where I'm playing a role. In my generic "do everything" builds I don't really see the point. And if you're like most people trying to corrosive FoO whip somebody the last thing you want to do is immobilize before your big move.

You miss the point I'm trying to make though. You call it an issue and use "stam checking" as an argument. You can STILL stam check while doing MORE damage with talons + shattering rocks. If you run into a fight and immediately immobilize with talons, their first instinct is to roll away. Then when they roll you immediately shattering rocks to stun them.

More damage + healing + potential to stam check an enemy and it's far more effective than using fossilize. The only deficit is having to trade 1 DOT off your bar, whether it's Degen, burning embers, or cinder storm, but you're replacing it with talons which is still another DOT.
DK Would still get the same effect as fossilize, and there would be no loss of power for the class. (Which is the main reason it won't do anything to nerf it)

Losing degen could hurt, but it's not as if people don't already run sorcery potions anyways (in the form of detect pots with
Major sorcery on them).

Also it doesn't really matter if you dodge the whip because most whip users are using Molten whip, which doesn't even consume stacks if they dodge, so they can spam whip until they eventually land on you and it has a high uptime.
The stamina consumption might be a thing, but it's really easy to sustain when sets like wretched vitality exist.
For Flame lash, it's barely a trade because it just requires 1 lash to off balance you then they can keep pushing you with pressure until off balance cooldown sets in.

DK is not really pigenheld into using fossilize, therefore it's hardly worth trying to nerf due to alternatives

nublife01

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

You miss the point I'm trying to make though. You call it an issue and use "stam checking" as an argument. You can STILL stam check while doing MORE damage with talons + shattering rocks. If you run into a fight and immediately immobilize with talons, their first instinct is to roll away. Then when they roll you immediately shattering rocks to stun them.

More damage + healing + potential to stam check an enemy and it's far more effective than using fossilize. The only deficit is having to trade 1 DOT off your bar, whether it's Degen, burning embers, or cinder storm, but you're replacing it with talons which is still another DOT.
DK Would still get the same effect as fossilize, and there would be no loss of power for the class. (Which is the main reason it won't do anything to nerf it)

Losing degen could hurt, but it's not as if people don't already run sorcery potions anyways (in the form of detect pots with
Major sorcery on them).

Also it doesn't really matter if you dodge the whip because most whip users are using Molten whip, which doesn't even consume stacks if they dodge, so they can spam whip until they eventually land on you and it has a high uptime.
The stamina consumption might be a thing, but it's really easy to sustain when sets like wretched vitality exist.
For Flame lash, it's barely a trade because it just requires 1 lash to off balance you then they can keep pushing you with pressure until off balance cooldown sets in.

DK is not really pigenheld into using fossilize, therefore it's hardly worth trying to nerf due to alternatives

Here maybe an example of past broken classes will help. The central way nightblade well stamblade particularly has been nerfed over the years is that our ability power has been spread out among gcds/bar space. This is because when one ability has too much power it frees up a lot of bar space which makes the class able to equip a lot more utility than other classes. Take for example night blade surprise attack no longer stunning a target from behind. You have to now slot fear to be able to do that. Shadowy Disguise no longer shields you from dots so you need to slot a burst heal like healthy offering as opposed to just vigor+cloaking. Now with less bar space there are nightblades who are running sets like night mothers to free up bar space so that they dont need to run weakness of elements and can slot something like siphoning strikes or shadowy disguise or race against time or dark path instead.

Where as currently dk's posses one ability that both imobalizes and stuns, while ALSO being unblockable AND synergizing damage for a morph of dk's smain spammable is a whole lot for one spell. You're clearly missing the point of what you're responding to. Talons + shattering rocks are two abilities for your spell bar taking up two slottables. Fossilize is only one and why the ability is broken. Spacing out ability power is rather the genius way they have nerfed nightblade and tbh if dk's are going to keep the damage pressure they have, this ability needs that treatment.

And in no CP (where wretched vitality does not work in and where classes should be balanced for pvp) if you are a magicka based melee class and have a dk casting this on you every 7 seconds 1800 stam recovery with a set like willow's path you will still run out of stamina very quickly. Heavy weaving or not you have a time limit to either kill the dk or run or you will run out of stamina and die. And everybody knows this. I mean just a day ago I was killing a zerg in no cp imperial city then a few of them swapped to stam dk and gg the stamina drain is too much.

cuddles_with_wroble

nublife01 wrote: »

its the combination of high pressure with the most broken cc mechanics in the game. it is not high pressure by itself. fossilize on its own can drain a players stamina pool completely. the difference between nightblade and dk is that nightblade you have to choose between high cc and utility or damage you cannot have both. dk you dont have to choose. i mean the cc abilities even buff their damage which is how old nightblade used to be and why it got nerfed and its ability power spread out. dk needs the exact same treatment. has nothing to do with the current meta or anything like that. has everything to do with the class abilities themselves. they are that broken and need a nerf/rework.


what abilites do you think need changing and why? fossilize seems to be a massive issue for peoples stam sustain for some reason so i wonder if you all are just not running enough stam or not running enough stam recovery.

their damage is good but not op in anyway imo, esp with sets likes maras and hist sap to completely counter all their pressure

dk is kinda setup to be offensive and defensive at the same time and i think it does that really well.

using nightblade as an example is kinda off the mark since nightblade is arguably the best class in the game rn for pvp only rivaled by maybe warden depending on the scenario

DK is a solid A teir class thats currently sitting S teir in this high hp high stat meta. nerf the sets that makes dk feel so strong and the class will fall out of S teir

xDeusEJRx

nublife01 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

You miss the point I'm trying to make though. You call it an issue and use "stam checking" as an argument. You can STILL stam check while doing MORE damage with talons + shattering rocks. If you run into a fight and immediately immobilize with talons, their first instinct is to roll away. Then when they roll you immediately shattering rocks to stun them.

More damage + healing + potential to stam check an enemy and it's far more effective than using fossilize. The only deficit is having to trade 1 DOT off your bar, whether it's Degen, burning embers, or cinder storm, but you're replacing it with talons which is still another DOT.
DK Would still get the same effect as fossilize, and there would be no loss of power for the class. (Which is the main reason it won't do anything to nerf it)

Losing degen could hurt, but it's not as if people don't already run sorcery potions anyways (in the form of detect pots with
Major sorcery on them).

Also it doesn't really matter if you dodge the whip because most whip users are using Molten whip, which doesn't even consume stacks if they dodge, so they can spam whip until they eventually land on you and it has a high uptime.
The stamina consumption might be a thing, but it's really easy to sustain when sets like wretched vitality exist.
For Flame lash, it's barely a trade because it just requires 1 lash to off balance you then they can keep pushing you with pressure until off balance cooldown sets in.

DK is not really pigenheld into using fossilize, therefore it's hardly worth trying to nerf due to alternatives

Here maybe an example of past broken classes will help. The central way nightblade well stamblade particularly has been nerfed over the years is that our ability power has been spread out among gcds/bar space. This is because when one ability has too much power it frees up a lot of bar space which makes the class able to equip a lot more utility than other classes. Take for example night blade surprise attack no longer stunning a target from behind. You have to now slot fear to be able to do that. Shadowy Disguise no longer shields you from dots so you need to slot a burst heal like healthy offering as opposed to just vigor+cloaking. Now with less bar space there are nightblades who are running sets like night mothers to free up bar space so that they dont need to run weakness of elements and can slot something like siphoning strikes or shadowy disguise or race against time or dark path instead.

Where as currently dk's posses one ability that both imobalizes and stuns, while ALSO being unblockable AND synergizing damage for a morph of dk's smain spammable is a whole lot for one spell. You're clearly missing the point of what you're responding to. Talons + shattering rocks are two abilities for your spell bar taking up two slottables. Fossilize is only one and why the ability is broken. Spacing out ability power is rather the genius way they have nerfed nightblade and tbh if dk's are going to keep the damage pressure they have, this ability needs that treatment.

And in no CP (where wretched vitality does not work in and where classes should be balanced for pvp) if you are a magicka based melee class and have a dk casting this on you every 7 seconds 1800 stam recovery with a set like willow's path you will still run out of stamina very quickly. Heavy weaving or not you have a time limit to either kill the dk or run or you will run out of stamina and die. And everybody knows this. I mean just a day ago I was killing a zerg in no cp imperial city then a few of them swapped to stam dk and gg the stamina drain is too much.

Nerfing fossilize won't take away from the classes power. I just explained why, having 1 shattering rocks healing you with having talons barely takes away any power from the class. If anything it makes it stronger, because it's harder to predict. You can't predict being hit with shattering rocks immediately after roll dodging from a talons. Fossilize on the other hand, you immediately know you're locked down by the immobilize from it.

Fossilize is NOT where DK gets their power from, that's why this suggestion is inconsequential. Surprise attack is not comparable to fossilize, because one is a CC and one is a spammable. People using SA are using it naturally because it's their main source of consistent damage. People aren't gonna spam fossilize, they will use it every time you're off CC immunity, or when they're prepared to burst someone down.

Old surprise attack is just generally different because they are going to use it IRRESPECTIVE of whether they knock you down with it or not, so comparing the two is not really sensible to claim. In fact that can be detrimental because you stun people not because you want to, but just because you're trying to put pressure on them. It was a double edged sword.

Also there's still NB's who don't use fear, because fear is not an amazing skill to use a lot of the time. It's better to just surprise attack > heavy attack once they're off balanced because off balance into heavy attack = stun. So they can still save on bar space. Comparing a CC skill to a spammable that functionally has/still works different is nonsensical.


And yes, Wretched vitality doesn't exist in no CP, but majority of PVP'ers, especially the people who are arguing to nerf DK aren't playing no cp. Proc sets make DK insanely powerful, most of the oppressive DK builds we've seen are all PROC builds.
Not to say DK is not a strong class, but most of the DK talk is about a DK using procs, because procs are getting more and more broken as time continues. No one is out here talking about a DK using Heartland Conqueror in NO proc, because it's not broken - procs on the other hand are.

To list a few: Mechanical acuity corrosive DK, Oakensoul 1 bar DK(pre-nerfed oakensoul), Plaguebreak DK, Titanic cleave DK. These builds are all made insanely strong by mostly procs. None of which in these builds can be ran in NO-CP NO-Proc in the first place. So using "no proc" as an argument is very silly.

If you really want to nerf DK, you need to understand why DK is strong. One reason is they synergize well with procs. Fossilize on the other hand, is not at all a reason why DK is strong. Fossilize is VERY low on the list of reasons why DK is the top class right now.

Mrtoobyy

For me playing Templar as main surviving against a DK is not the issue here due to cleanse etc.
My concern is the insane damage you can put out while still having insane tankiness.


The issues I find with the DK is:
EVERY ardent flame skill automatically snares you. Take templar for example, it has three skills with only ONE being ranged that snares over 1 sec 100% wich is Reflective light. Jabs = melee range for ONLY 0.5 secs. Eclipse ONLY snares if the enemy uses direct damage attacks

Access to 36% increased healing in their classkit, Major vitality is not one of them making it stackable.

The stun+roots as others have mentioned in Fossilize, does it really need both CC's? And it seems to override every other thing in the game making the server always prioritizes a Fossilize cast due to bad programming.

Corrosive armor, does it really need to be have such a strong offensive and defensive capability?

Dragon leap does it really need to have that big of a radius? The same also goes for this as with Fossilize, it seems to override everything else happening in the game. Remember the old mist form where you were immune to ALL form CC. Well not the Dragon leap, it caused you to stop cause Dragon leap has some weird AOE mechanic. You can be in whatever animation that started earlier than the Dragon leap but the server always prioritizes Dragon leap to go first.

Ash cloud: does a ranged AOE snare really need to have 70% snare? As an example, Deep slash wich is locked to a certain weapon type and melee range only has a 30% snare

I don't want these things to be changed overall or removed. Just fine-tune/tweak them so they are more in line with other things in the game.

nublife01

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Nerfing fossilize won't take away from the classes power. I just explained why, having 1 shattering rocks healing you with having talons barely takes away any power from the class. If anything it makes it stronger, because it's harder to predict. You can't predict being hit with shattering rocks immediately after roll dodging from a talons. Fossilize on the other hand, you immediately know you're locked down by the immobilize from it.

Fossilize is NOT where DK gets their power from, that's why this suggestion is inconsequential. Surprise attack is not comparable to fossilize, because one is a CC and one is a spammable. People using SA are using it naturally because it's their main source of consistent damage. People aren't gonna spam fossilize, they will use it every time you're off CC immunity, or when they're prepared to burst someone down.

Old surprise attack is just generally different because they are going to use it IRRESPECTIVE of whether they knock you down with it or not, so comparing the two is not really sensible to claim. In fact that can be detrimental because you stun people not because you want to, but just because you're trying to put pressure on them. It was a double edged sword.

Also there's still NB's who don't use fear, because fear is not an amazing skill to use a lot of the time. It's better to just surprise attack > heavy attack once they're off balanced because off balance into heavy attack = stun. So they can still save on bar space. Comparing a CC skill to a spammable that functionally has/still works different is nonsensical.


And yes, Wretched vitality doesn't exist in no CP, but majority of PVP'ers, especially the people who are arguing to nerf DK aren't playing no cp. Proc sets make DK insanely powerful, most of the oppressive DK builds we've seen are all PROC builds.
Not to say DK is not a strong class, but most of the DK talk is about a DK using procs, because procs are getting more and more broken as time continues. No one is out here talking about a DK using Heartland Conqueror in NO proc, because it's not broken - procs on the other hand are.

To list a few: Mechanical acuity corrosive DK, Oakensoul 1 bar DK(pre-nerfed oakensoul), Plaguebreak DK, Titanic cleave DK. These builds are all made insanely strong by mostly procs. None of which in these builds can be ran in NO-CP NO-Proc in the first place. So using "no proc" as an argument is very silly.

If you really want to nerf DK, you need to understand why DK is strong. One reason is they synergize well with procs. Fossilize on the other hand, is not at all a reason why DK is strong. Fossilize is VERY low on the list of reasons why DK is the top class right now.

i think you missed my point. my point is closer to this.

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

For me playing Templar as main surviving against a DK is not the issue here due to cleanse etc.
My concern is the insane damage you can put out while still having insane tankiness.


The issues I find with the DK is:
EVERY ardent flame skill automatically snares you. Take templar for example, it has three skills with only ONE being ranged that snares over 1 sec 100% wich is Reflective light. Jabs = melee range for ONLY 0.5 secs. Eclipse ONLY snares if the enemy uses direct damage attacks

Access to 36% increased healing in their classkit, Major vitality is not one of them making it stackable.

The stun+roots as others have mentioned in Fossilize, does it really need both CC's? And it seems to override every other thing in the game making the server always prioritizes a Fossilize cast due to bad programming.

Corrosive armor, does it really need to be have such a strong offensive and defensive capability?

Dragon leap does it really need to have that big of a radius? The same also goes for this as with Fossilize, it seems to override everything else happening in the game. Remember the old mist form where you were immune to ALL form CC. Well not the Dragon leap, it caused you to stop cause Dragon leap has some weird AOE mechanic. You can be in whatever animation that started earlier than the Dragon leap but the server always prioritizes Dragon leap to go first.

Ash cloud: does a ranged AOE snare really need to have 70% snare? As an example, Deep slash wich is locked to a certain weapon type and melee range only has a 30% snare

I don't want these things to be changed overall or removed. Just fine-tune/tweak them so they are more in line with other things in the game.

i know why dk is strong lol. dk is strong because of as mrtooby explained and i have explained its class abilities are too affix/utility rich. sure you can argue that cp sets synergize well with dk but they also synergize well with warden and stam sorc and those classes are rather balanced. mara's/gaze of sithis/master dw makes stam sorc extremely strong but still not as broken as dk. and thats because:

dk needs its utility spread out so that one has to choose between different utilities instead of being able to slot all of them. sure there are other abilties that need some of their utility spread to other skills as mrtooby has described but fossilize and corrosive armor are a prime example of this. you should need to slot at least 2 abilties and use two global cool downs to do what fossilize does in one. and if you do not understand how decentralizing ability power will nerf the class then you clearly have not played a class before and after changes like this have been made to them.

corrosive armor should have its defensive and offensive functions split into two different morphs. incap strike for example used to both stun a target and place major defile on it. now that has been spread to two morphs.one morph stuns and the other puts major defile on the target because combined was simply too powerful. this spreading of utility needs to be done with corrosive armor in its defensive and offensive functions because together they are simply too powerful regardless of mara's or other proc sets.

the class needs to be reworked the same way nightblade was reworked targeting the most overly affix rich abilities such as fossilize and corrosive armor first regardless of if they are cc's ultimates spammables etc and spreading their ability power to class spells that are not commonly used now forcing you to choose between which utilities you want instead of simply being able to have them all slotted at once. mrtoobys post further highlights this.

and yes the class is broken in no cp. like very broken and its brokeness is centralized around fossilize and corrosive armor being too affix rich for one global cooldown and one ability slot. if you played any no cp you'd know this. everyone in no cp knows this. its why zerg groups in imperial city run around on dks because of how broken they are/fossilize and corrosive armor are. and no cp isnt just cyro but also bgs so it still is a heavy amount of the player base. and no cp is a very good indicator of whether or not a class is overtuned because in no cp pvp it is raw class against raw class as opposed to class with different proc sets vs classes with different proc sets. the proc sets and cp talents should be balanced after the class is balanced without them not before. it is actually a very very good indicator of if a class is broken or not.

xDeusEJRx

nublife01 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Nerfing fossilize won't take away from the classes power. I just explained why, having 1 shattering rocks healing you with having talons barely takes away any power from the class. If anything it makes it stronger, because it's harder to predict. You can't predict being hit with shattering rocks immediately after roll dodging from a talons. Fossilize on the other hand, you immediately know you're locked down by the immobilize from it.

Fossilize is NOT where DK gets their power from, that's why this suggestion is inconsequential. Surprise attack is not comparable to fossilize, because one is a CC and one is a spammable. People using SA are using it naturally because it's their main source of consistent damage. People aren't gonna spam fossilize, they will use it every time you're off CC immunity, or when they're prepared to burst someone down.

Old surprise attack is just generally different because they are going to use it IRRESPECTIVE of whether they knock you down with it or not, so comparing the two is not really sensible to claim. In fact that can be detrimental because you stun people not because you want to, but just because you're trying to put pressure on them. It was a double edged sword.

Also there's still NB's who don't use fear, because fear is not an amazing skill to use a lot of the time. It's better to just surprise attack > heavy attack once they're off balanced because off balance into heavy attack = stun. So they can still save on bar space. Comparing a CC skill to a spammable that functionally has/still works different is nonsensical.


And yes, Wretched vitality doesn't exist in no CP, but majority of PVP'ers, especially the people who are arguing to nerf DK aren't playing no cp. Proc sets make DK insanely powerful, most of the oppressive DK builds we've seen are all PROC builds.
Not to say DK is not a strong class, but most of the DK talk is about a DK using procs, because procs are getting more and more broken as time continues. No one is out here talking about a DK using Heartland Conqueror in NO proc, because it's not broken - procs on the other hand are.

To list a few: Mechanical acuity corrosive DK, Oakensoul 1 bar DK(pre-nerfed oakensoul), Plaguebreak DK, Titanic cleave DK. These builds are all made insanely strong by mostly procs. None of which in these builds can be ran in NO-CP NO-Proc in the first place. So using "no proc" as an argument is very silly.

If you really want to nerf DK, you need to understand why DK is strong. One reason is they synergize well with procs. Fossilize on the other hand, is not at all a reason why DK is strong. Fossilize is VERY low on the list of reasons why DK is the top class right now.

i think you missed my point. my point is closer to this.

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

For me playing Templar as main surviving against a DK is not the issue here due to cleanse etc.
My concern is the insane damage you can put out while still having insane tankiness.


The issues I find with the DK is:
EVERY ardent flame skill automatically snares you. Take templar for example, it has three skills with only ONE being ranged that snares over 1 sec 100% wich is Reflective light. Jabs = melee range for ONLY 0.5 secs. Eclipse ONLY snares if the enemy uses direct damage attacks

Access to 36% increased healing in their classkit, Major vitality is not one of them making it stackable.

The stun+roots as others have mentioned in Fossilize, does it really need both CC's? And it seems to override every other thing in the game making the server always prioritizes a Fossilize cast due to bad programming.

Corrosive armor, does it really need to be have such a strong offensive and defensive capability?

Dragon leap does it really need to have that big of a radius? The same also goes for this as with Fossilize, it seems to override everything else happening in the game. Remember the old mist form where you were immune to ALL form CC. Well not the Dragon leap, it caused you to stop cause Dragon leap has some weird AOE mechanic. You can be in whatever animation that started earlier than the Dragon leap but the server always prioritizes Dragon leap to go first.

Ash cloud: does a ranged AOE snare really need to have 70% snare? As an example, Deep slash wich is locked to a certain weapon type and melee range only has a 30% snare

I don't want these things to be changed overall or removed. Just fine-tune/tweak them so they are more in line with other things in the game.

i know why dk is strong lol. dk is strong because of as mrtooby explained and i have explained its class abilities are too affix/utility rich. sure you can argue that cp sets synergize well with dk but they also synergize well with warden and stam sorc and those classes are rather balanced. mara's/gaze of sithis/master dw makes stam sorc extremely strong but still not as broken as dk. and thats because:

dk needs its utility spread out so that one has to choose between different utilities instead of being able to slot all of them. sure there are other abilties that need some of their utility spread to other skills as mrtooby has described but fossilize and corrosive armor are a prime example of this. you should need to slot at least 2 abilties and use two global cool downs to do what fossilize does in one. and if you do not understand how decentralizing ability power will nerf the class then you clearly have not played a class before and after changes like this have been made to them.

corrosive armor should have its defensive and offensive functions split into two different morphs. incap strike for example used to both stun a target and place major defile on it. now that has been spread to two morphs.one morph stuns and the other puts major defile on the target because combined was simply too powerful. this spreading of utility needs to be done with corrosive armor in its defensive and offensive functions because together they are simply too powerful regardless of mara's or other proc sets.

the class needs to be reworked the same way nightblade was reworked targeting the most overly affix rich abilities such as fossilize and corrosive armor first regardless of if they are cc's ultimates spammables etc and spreading their ability power to class spells that are not commonly used now forcing you to choose between which utilities you want instead of simply being able to have them all slotted at once. mrtoobys post further highlights this.

and yes the class is broken in no cp. like very broken and its brokeness is centralized around fossilize and corrosive armor being too affix rich for one global cooldown and one ability slot. if you played any no cp you'd know this. everyone in no cp knows this. its why zerg groups in imperial city run around on dks because of how broken they are/fossilize and corrosive armor are. and no cp isnt just cyro but also bgs so it still is a heavy amount of the player base. and no cp is a very good indicator of whether or not a class is overtuned because in no cp pvp it is raw class against raw class as opposed to class with different proc sets vs classes with different proc sets. the proc sets and cp talents should be balanced after the class is balanced without them not before. it is actually a very very good indicator of if a class is broken or not.

1. I understand what point you guys are trying to make, but it's a moot point at the end of the day I would say. Most of the oppressive DK builds are not strong because of fossilize, I'm not sure why you're so gung *** about making this change. I understand the idea of "spreading utility across the class", but the problem is, DK's strength is not because fossilize has that much stun/root power wrapped into it. That's what I've been saying this entire time but you guys are so gung *** about the change thinking that will actually knock the class down at all. It will not actually have much tangible benefits. Some but not much.
2. Proc sets don't synergize with Sorc how it does DK. Sorc doesn't have passives like DK does that make procs overly strong. Maras balm is just a broken proc in general, it doesn't synergize with sorc any more than any other class because sorc doesn't play into it more than any other class can. I was most specifically refering to DK passives like Battle roar. Daedric trickery makes battle roar amazing because more ulti gen equals more utilizing battle roar. Or how flame procs are made overly good because of world in ruin. Or how you can stack unique damage done bonuses with Engulfing and essence thief and Encratis or Blood spawn for ulti gen. Sorc on the other hand doesn't have that to the degree DK does. Warden however is a good example because their ice passives buff ice procs pretty well, as well as a unique damage done bonus. Ice wardens can perform pretty well. Sorc however is just not comparable to DK or warden. That was the point I was trying to make, procs play very well into the classes playstyle.

3. Also if you read my last few statements, I never disagreed DK is not a strong class, I think it's a top class irrespective. I have played in no cp before, but no CP DK is not comparable to CP DK in any stretch of the imagination. I have no idea why people are even trying make this argument lol. Most of the grievances towards DK are because of what DK with procs can do. Mechanical corrosive DK in CP is no way comparable to what DK in no cp no proc can do. In CP you don't have to make compromises on your build because CP and procs are major crutches. In no cp however you do. BG's however is still as toxic as NO proc no cp. I mean people first introduced the permanent corrosive armor DK build through BG testing, but BG's is not the same as no proc so that argument is still kinda weak because adding procs into the equation is a huge difference.

CP has barely any compromises that has be made, in fact you can make builds more oppressive BECAUSE of CP( I mean look at what occult overload allowed people to do), then look at what procs add onto that. Most of the hatred of DK is because of what CP and Procs allow them to do, and there's more proc players than non-proc players in this game. Most of the feats DK have are attributed to proc pvp. Once you take away that element, the biggest crutch DK has is corrosive armor primarily.

Most of what I'm saying is because I think it's funny how people think fossilize is a pain point for DK when most of DK's strength has notoriously hinged on procs and corrosive armor.

pedrogonzalez

Agree.
Corrosive bad.
Let’s change it.
Corrosive armor: gives you full pen, increase your damage done by 15%, increase your damage received by 15%.
Magma armor (or what the name of that morph that nobody uses?): gives you and allies shield, you taking damage max 3% of health, your damage output gets penalty -15%.
Sounds balanced innit
Edit: oh I forgot, now both of them will have cast time, like incap and onslaught, because why not.

Mrtoobyy

Are there people that 100% thinks that DK is balanced right now? I mean EVENLY balanced compared to lets say a stamplar.
DK's are strong as a class by itself without vamp stage 3 and other stuff. It's their class kit that is offering so many good things.

I mean to have a class that does:
DOT pressure in form of poison that can proc the poison status effect wich is boosted by other class passives
100% penetration
Great damage reduction
Restore:
11200 Health
11200 Mag
12320 stam
Minor brutality
3 utilmate

ALL this for pressing one ulti key

It is stupid! Plain and simple

Tommy_The_Gun

With detection potions having 100 meters range next patch, DK will remain the only competitive class. I guess it is easier to balance the game that way if they have only 1 class to worry about

Mrtoobyy

Like I have said many times, been playing since BETA. It's so sad to see what this game has become thinking of what it could be... It's easily my top5 favourite games of all time but the direction it has taken and the constant changes ZOS does.

I just don't get it, I really don't get it why I make threads like this Maybe it's nice to hear others opinions about the bad stuff that is bothering one another.

Dunning_Kruger

Fossilize and it’s imo better morph shattering rocks is one of the rarest types of CC, one that can’t be wasted or mitigated. If the button lights up and you press it the target can be CC’d and will be CC’d. Also you can’t burn resources using it on an immune target via immovabiltiy or cc immunity. It’s a brain dead cc.

Iriidius

pedrogonzalez wrote: »

Agree.
Corrosive bad.
Let’s change it.
Corrosive armor: gives you full pen, increase your damage done by 15%, increase your damage received by 15%.
Magma armor (or what the name of that morph that nobody uses?): gives you and allies shield, you taking damage max 3% of health, your damage output gets penalty -15%.
Sounds balanced innit
Edit: oh I forgot, now both of them will have cast time, like incap and onslaught, because why not.

Corrosive armor existed for years in its current state and wasnt a problem before dk got meta, it even got nerfed in update 22/23 to not give penetration to dots althought much of dks dmg comes from dots. If this changes are done corrosive will become useless and nobody will even use it anymore. Onslaught gives full penetration as morph effect on top of beeing an ultimate and still rarely gets used, when corrosive gets changed that way it will be even worse. And removing the 3%cap dmg is not even enaugh for you, you even want to increase the dmg they receive in corrosive over out of it. And why does magma armor have to decrease the dmg of the user as penslty when you admitt yourself that nobody uses it? Probably more dks use spell wall(shielt ulti), live giver(healing staff), vampire ulti
or psijic ulti than magma armor. You not only split offensive and defensive functions but make each function decrease the other. Corrosive builds dont get „100%“ (more like 75%) uptime on corrosive anymore after oakensoul nerf, they get maybe 40% uptime with bloodspawn+daedrick trickery and heroism potions and less with mara+maarselok.
Stamden and Stamcro were meta from before u26 and only got slightly nerfs in u28 and u30(only warden arctic blast/polar wind) before they got surpassed by buffed magplar and magdk in u32. Other nerfs came only after they were already out of meta and since u35 warden is already meta again. DK receives nerf every update since u34 except u36, but players just ignore this, complain they didnt get nerfed and rven buffed wheb it is total useless buffs. DK will loose its 2m range advantage next update, maybe it will fall out of meta then or when they buff necro, sorc or templar again.

OBJnoob

Iriidius wrote: »

pedrogonzalez wrote: »

Agree.
Corrosive bad.
Let’s change it.
Corrosive armor: gives you full pen, increase your damage done by 15%, increase your damage received by 15%.
Magma armor (or what the name of that morph that nobody uses?): gives you and allies shield, you taking damage max 3% of health, your damage output gets penalty -15%.
Sounds balanced innit
Edit: oh I forgot, now both of them will have cast time, like incap and onslaught, because why not.

Corrosive armor existed for years in its current state and wasnt a problem before dk got meta, it even got nerfed in update 22/23 to not give penetration to dots althought much of dks dmg comes from dots. If this changes are done corrosive will become useless and nobody will even use it anymore. Onslaught gives full penetration as morph effect on top of beeing an ultimate and still rarely gets used, when corrosive gets changed that way it will be even worse. And removing the 3%cap dmg is not even enaugh for you, you even want to increase the dmg they receive in corrosive over out of it. And why does magma armor have to decrease the dmg of the user as penslty when you admitt yourself that nobody uses it? Probably more dks use spell wall(shielt ulti), live giver(healing staff), vampire ulti
or psijic ulti than magma armor. You not only split offensive and defensive functions but make each function decrease the other. Corrosive builds dont get „100%“ (more like 75%) uptime on corrosive anymore after oakensoul nerf, they get maybe 40% uptime with bloodspawn+daedrick trickery and heroism potions and less with mara+maarselok.
Stamden and Stamcro were meta from before u26 and only got slightly nerfs in u28 and u30(only warden arctic blast/polar wind) before they got surpassed by buffed magplar and magdk in u32. Other nerfs came only after they were already out of meta and since u35 warden is already meta again. DK receives nerf every update since u34 except u36, but players just ignore this, complain they didnt get nerfed and rven buffed wheb it is total useless buffs. DK will loose its 2m range advantage next update, maybe it will fall out of meta then or when they buff necro, sorc or templar again.

I mean... That's an interesting history lesson, and nothing you said is really wrong, but nevertheless DK is OP and has been for at least a year.

If your correct supporting points don't add up to a correct conclusion then you might have the wrong perspective.

The task at hand is to identify what it is that makes them OP because they undeniably are. Listing a bunch of historic nerfs and non-buffs is pretty inconsequential.

Yes-- Things have been done to the game besides just making DK OP. Granted. Now what?

chessalavakia_ESO

It's possible that the DK may not be that statistically out of line in some metrics.

For example, if you look at the amount of AP earned by the bottom of the top 100 on each class on Gray Host the DK is doing well but, it's Nightblade in the lead @ 892k, DK @ 679k, Templar @ 638k, Sorc @ 547k, Warden @ 467k, and Necro @ 209k.

If you look at Blackreach's bottom of the top 100 on each class DK is again doing well @ 316k, but Nightblade is still beating them @ 416k, Templar is @ 248k, Sorc is @ 282k, Warden is @ 200k, Necro is @ 100k.

If you look at Ashpit, you have 97 DK players, 93 Sorc players, 100+ Nightblade players, 80 Templar players, 88 Warden players, and 53 Necromancer players.

If you look at Evergloam you have 100 + DK players, 100+ Sorc Players, 100+ Nightblade players, 90 Templar players, 91 Warden players, and 49 Necromancer players.

If you look at Fields of Regret you have 29 DK players, 31 Sorc Players, 33 Nightblade players, 28 Templar players, 23 Warden players, and 7 Necromancer players.

If you look at Quagmire you have 29 DK players, 26 Sorc players, 19 Nightblade players, 24 Templar players, 17 Warden players, and 11 Necromancer players.

Some of the stat gap on the newer classes may be that players either do not own it or veteran players are attached to their earlier class enough that they do not want to swap.

Granted, due to the event this is likely a somewhat bad time to be checking that type of metric because the event brings in a different population than Cyrodiil's normal but, at least for the moment it looks like DK is #2 not #1 at least based on usage.

TechMaybeHic

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

It's possible that the DK may not be that statistically out of line in some metrics.

For example, if you look at the amount of AP earned by the bottom of the top 100 on each class on Gray Host the DK is doing well but, it's Nightblade in the lead @ 892k, DK @ 679k, Templar @ 638k, Sorc @ 547k, Warden @ 467k, and Necro @ 209k.

If you look at Blackreach's bottom of the top 100 on each class DK is again doing well @ 316k, but Nightblade is still beating them @ 416k, Templar is @ 248k, Sorc is @ 282k, Warden is @ 200k, Necro is @ 100k.

If you look at Ashpit, you have 97 DK players, 93 Sorc players, 100+ Nightblade players, 80 Templar players, 88 Warden players, and 53 Necromancer players.

If you look at Evergloam you have 100 + DK players, 100+ Sorc Players, 100+ Nightblade players, 90 Templar players, 91 Warden players, and 49 Necromancer players.

If you look at Fields of Regret you have 29 DK players, 31 Sorc Players, 33 Nightblade players, 28 Templar players, 23 Warden players, and 7 Necromancer players.

If you look at Quagmire you have 29 DK players, 26 Sorc players, 19 Nightblade players, 24 Templar players, 17 Warden players, and 11 Necromancer players.

Some of the stat gap on the newer classes may be that players either do not own it or veteran players are attached to their earlier class enough that they do not want to swap.

Granted, due to the event this is likely a somewhat bad time to be checking that type of metric because the event brings in a different population than Cyrodiil's normal but, at least for the moment it looks like DK is #2 not #1 at least based on usage.

AP seems to be a terrible metric to look at. It's like counting participation trophies and saying the person with the most is the best athlete.