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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
The Sorcerer changes are completely inadequate
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RemoryAzure✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »It's mathematically impossible for Curse to hits for as much as force pulse though.
but in reality crushing shock hits noticeably harder.
as i already told u in another topic, when u use pulse in a proper build (draugrkin + charged), it has a "tooltip" of 13-14k damage, this is amount, mathematically combined from: 1. base skill damage, 2. procs' damage multiplied by their chance (care with burning if u wanna test/calculate it urself) and 3. draugrkin bonus added to every single instance of damage (add to procs before multiplying by their chance). no-cp numbers. OR simply test it on a dummy with lowest possible crit chance to exclude random and compare with swing's dps.
curse/swing on the other hand have about 11k tooltip, which is LOWER than pulse by 20-25%
thats why i gave up on curse. it just wastes gcd and makes weaving harder and instead of profit it actually lowers ur effective damage output, and the "burst potential" due to delayed damage is just a joke considering its damageEdited by RemoryAzure on 3 February 2023 12:392 -
Hesperax79✭✭✭Anyone on PTS: Will sheer venom sets works as AoE damage with the new Mage Wrath skill?0 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭StaticWave wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shokasegambit1 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »RemoryAzure wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »I don't consider buffs to others to be nerfs to anything.
streak was the ONLY reason to play sorcerer.
sorc is the rarest and the weakest class in the game, after the patch there will be no more sorcs.
ofc, unless ZoS decide to buff it to be on the same level as other classes (for example +20% damage while holding lightning staff, major berserk on streak, major protection and major evasion on dark conversion, invulnerable pets and major+minor breach on haunting curse - this would be enough to place sorcerer #4 or even #3 in pvp class tier list)
Wow, drama much? Sorc is by no means the rarest or weakest class in the game and never has been. Like seriously, come on.
Which class is the rarest and which is the weakest currently?
Ranged magicka nightblade. Not Concealed Weapon NB. Pure ranged magicka nightblade with Swallow Soul for spammable.
I think he meant worst class abilities - because ZOS dev bias towards Stam Sorcs is blatantly shown.
He did ask which class is the weakest and rarest. It's ranged magicka nightblade. That spec is so bad nobody plays it except for a few OG mains.
"Ranged Magicka Nightblade" is not a class it is a spec, MagBlade is a class, choosing to play it ranged is a choice you can make, one that unfortunately doesn't work well but all classes can't be expected to be good at all specs. MagSorc as a whole doesn't have good options.
I can make the same counterargument as yours. Post hybridization, Shield Stacking Magsorc is no longer a class, but a spec. You literally have options to fix your spec's weakness (Vigor, stamina weapons for better stats if playing melee, etc.), so whether you decide to utilize them or not is your choice.
You can't possibly argue that Magsorc is the weakest class when it's actually just your old-school shield stacking spec that's underperforming. Magsorc's damage has never been bad, and hybridization gives access to heals to fix weaknesses. If you refuse to use them and simultaneously complain that the "class" is bad when it's just your specific shield stacking spec, then I think it's a bit disingenuous of an argument.
There is no such thing as Mag sorc if you are trying to use an optimal setup
Mag Sorc’s main dps skill is crystal weapon
Mag Sorc’s main heal is vigor
Both are stamina skills
because frag is garbage and shield as well. Curse hits for as much as a force pulse
It's mathematically impossible for Curse to hits for as much as force pulse though. Curse's tooltip is equivalent to Dizzying Swing. I use Curse on my 2h stamsorc and both of them deal the same amount of damage.
Yes, both are stamina skills, just like how most stamina players are now using magicka heals. Hybridization is where its at, and once we get a class burst heal, sorc will be fine.
But most stamina players are still using a majority of stam skills
Yeah the tooltips are higher but it’s just my observation that a curse hits as much as a cs + light attack on charged staff
With draugrkin crushing shock hits much more than curse
Curse needs a significant damage buff instead of being unblockableEdited by PhoenixGrey on 3 February 2023 17:361 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also the shield buff is insignificant
While having 54k mag the ward size is just 3.5k more than before. The total shield size is 14.5k.
Anything less than a 20k shield is completely inadequate.
Shield scaling with mag needs to significantly increase
Edited by PhoenixGrey on 3 February 2023 17:441 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shokasegambit1 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »RemoryAzure wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »I don't consider buffs to others to be nerfs to anything.
streak was the ONLY reason to play sorcerer.
sorc is the rarest and the weakest class in the game, after the patch there will be no more sorcs.
ofc, unless ZoS decide to buff it to be on the same level as other classes (for example +20% damage while holding lightning staff, major berserk on streak, major protection and major evasion on dark conversion, invulnerable pets and major+minor breach on haunting curse - this would be enough to place sorcerer #4 or even #3 in pvp class tier list)
Wow, drama much? Sorc is by no means the rarest or weakest class in the game and never has been. Like seriously, come on.
Which class is the rarest and which is the weakest currently?
Ranged magicka nightblade. Not Concealed Weapon NB. Pure ranged magicka nightblade with Swallow Soul for spammable.
I think he meant worst class abilities - because ZOS dev bias towards Stam Sorcs is blatantly shown.
He did ask which class is the weakest and rarest. It's ranged magicka nightblade. That spec is so bad nobody plays it except for a few OG mains.
"Ranged Magicka Nightblade" is not a class it is a spec, MagBlade is a class, choosing to play it ranged is a choice you can make, one that unfortunately doesn't work well but all classes can't be expected to be good at all specs. MagSorc as a whole doesn't have good options.
I can make the same counterargument as yours. Post hybridization, Shield Stacking Magsorc is no longer a class, but a spec. You literally have options to fix your spec's weakness (Vigor, stamina weapons for better stats if playing melee, etc.), so whether you decide to utilize them or not is your choice.
You can't possibly argue that Magsorc is the weakest class when it's actually just your old-school shield stacking spec that's underperforming. Magsorc's damage has never been bad, and hybridization gives access to heals to fix weaknesses. If you refuse to use them and simultaneously complain that the "class" is bad when it's just your specific shield stacking spec, then I think it's a bit disingenuous of an argument.
No. You're completely ignoring that every other class's in-class defensive toolkit supports these modern specs. Sorcerer's DOES NOT. That is why we're asking for changes to how our wards scale to give them the same treatment as other classes existing defense (scaling off weapon/spell damage). Ours is the ONLY class that still FORCES us to stack max mag to actually utilize our in-class defensive toolkit. Vigor is not a counterargument. Everyone has access to Vigor coupled with better in-class heals. Sorc gets a flying plaguebreak bomb that isn't even guaranteed to heal you when you need it.
And thats not even getting into how much more insanely telegraphed and easily blockable/dodgeable/kiteable our offensive skills are over every other classes as well. At some combination of Weapon skills and universal support skills You aren't even playing a Sorcerer. When the "default" "good" build for Sorcerer has maybe 2 class skills, you're past that point.
The class is bad.Edited by acastanza_ESO on 3 February 2023 17:507 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »Now we will see sorcerers in close combat with 45 ka hp and with a mara set using shields for 11-12 thousand. Sorcerers will not know death... Unkillable sorcerer.. I saw such a sorcerer dueling on the test server. With maces from the dragonstar arena and mara. Unkillable.
That is a problem with Mara's and has nothing at all to do with Sorcerer's completely MIA defensive toolkit. The anemic buff to shields here is nothing at all. That Sorcerer was also probably not doing any damage at all. SorcTanks have always been a thing, the problem with them is that you have to give up literally everything else unlike every other class.
Now the meta of sorcerers using mara and maces from the dragonstar arena. You just need to redistribute points to health and put on a mythical ring for health, mana and stamina. You will not have outstanding damage, but it is enough to have good damage and very high survivability, allowing you to be the most survivable class in close combat. Mana shield should depend on mana. Twelve thousand protection gives in pvp. I restore health with a crit of 8-10 thousand. You can argue about this all you want, but the developers have made more tenacious sorcerers with huge health, thereby strengthening the already idiotic meta.
Nope. Health sorcs spamming ward will go down faster than any other health or troll tank build. I agree it will be an idiotic meta, but it won't be a good, workable build.
Garbage class at this point. Literally an order of magnitude less effective that NB as a burst damage class, and with recent changes NB is much faster, 100% uptime of major/minor expedition, cloak, shades, and now they get streak-lite.PhoenixGrey wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shokasegambit1 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »RemoryAzure wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »I don't consider buffs to others to be nerfs to anything.
streak was the ONLY reason to play sorcerer.
sorc is the rarest and the weakest class in the game, after the patch there will be no more sorcs.
ofc, unless ZoS decide to buff it to be on the same level as other classes (for example +20% damage while holding lightning staff, major berserk on streak, major protection and major evasion on dark conversion, invulnerable pets and major+minor breach on haunting curse - this would be enough to place sorcerer #4 or even #3 in pvp class tier list)
Wow, drama much? Sorc is by no means the rarest or weakest class in the game and never has been. Like seriously, come on.
Which class is the rarest and which is the weakest currently?
Ranged magicka nightblade. Not Concealed Weapon NB. Pure ranged magicka nightblade with Swallow Soul for spammable.
I think he meant worst class abilities - because ZOS dev bias towards Stam Sorcs is blatantly shown.
He did ask which class is the weakest and rarest. It's ranged magicka nightblade. That spec is so bad nobody plays it except for a few OG mains.
"Ranged Magicka Nightblade" is not a class it is a spec, MagBlade is a class, choosing to play it ranged is a choice you can make, one that unfortunately doesn't work well but all classes can't be expected to be good at all specs. MagSorc as a whole doesn't have good options.
I can make the same counterargument as yours. Post hybridization, Shield Stacking Magsorc is no longer a class, but a spec. You literally have options to fix your spec's weakness (Vigor, stamina weapons for better stats if playing melee, etc.), so whether you decide to utilize them or not is your choice.
You can't possibly argue that Magsorc is the weakest class when it's actually just your old-school shield stacking spec that's underperforming. Magsorc's damage has never been bad, and hybridization gives access to heals to fix weaknesses. If you refuse to use them and simultaneously complain that the "class" is bad when it's just your specific shield stacking spec, then I think it's a bit disingenuous of an argument.
There is no such thing as Mag sorc if you are trying to use an optimal setup
Mag Sorc’s main dps skill is crystal weapon
Mag Sorc’s main heal is vigor
Both are stamina skills
because frag is garbage and shield as well. Curse hits for as much as a force pulse
It's mathematically impossible for Curse to hits for as much as force pulse though. Curse's tooltip is equivalent to Dizzying Swing. I use Curse on my 2h stamsorc and both of them deal the same amount of damage.
Yes, both are stamina skills, just like how most stamina players are now using magicka heals. Hybridization is where its at, and once we get a class burst heal, sorc will be fine.
With draugrkin crushing shock hits much more than curse
That is funny! I've seen several youtubers expounding the virtues of draugrkin and forcepulse. My personal experience is that it does not kill anyone effectively. If that is the most effective build for a class, it is a dead class.
Curse should have the same tooltip as any other magica 3.5 second delayed burst skills. Simple. It should do 65% of the damage of Merciless Resolve. Simple. B4 any any says "but curse hits twice", 8.5 seconds later is useless. That needs to be removed and replaced with a useful secondary effect or the skill should be able to be used on multiple targets, or it needs and do 100% splash damage to targets near the cursed target.
Seriously, ZOS is putting passive minor expedition and 10% damage, 100% crit rate, major berserk on ***spammables***. This is garbage.Edited by katorga on 3 February 2023 18:324 -
RemoryAzure✭✭✭Curse should have the same tooltip as any other magica 3.5 second delayed burst skills. Simple. It should do 65% of the damage of Merciless Resolve
well, it actually has that exact base damage. curse has base damage of 2999, while resolve has 4752 (and 0.65 of that is 3089). the problem is that NB has too many sources of free damage - vamp passive 300 attack, resolve itself 300 more, concealed weapon also now gives 10% more damage, and just 3 of these combined give about 20% damage, while sorc's only solid damage boost is amplitude which gives 5% damage in average1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RemoryAzure wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »It's mathematically impossible for Curse to hits for as much as force pulse though.
but in reality crushing shock hits noticeably harder.
as i already told u in another topic, when u use pulse in a proper build (draugrkin + charged), it has a "tooltip" of 13-14k damage, this is amount, mathematically combined from: 1. base skill damage, 2. procs' damage multiplied by their chance (care with burning if u wanna test/calculate it urself) and 3. draugrkin bonus added to every single instance of damage (add to procs before multiplying by their chance). no-cp numbers. OR simply test it on a dummy with lowest possible crit chance to exclude random and compare with swing's dps.
curse/swing on the other hand have about 11k tooltip, which is LOWER than pulse by 20-25%
thats why i gave up on curse. it just wastes gcd and makes weaving harder and instead of profit it actually lowers ur effective damage output, and the "burst potential" due to delayed damage is just a joke considering its damage
No, that's not how it works. I'm comparing the tooltip of 2 abilities. You're comparing the tooltip of 2 abilities and using a set to aid 1 ability. Not a fair comparison in anyway. Curse's tooltip is significantly higher than Crushing Shock.
This is a CMX screenshot of my friend's magsorc fighting a top tier magplar on PC NA:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/609051373199163392/1071277252823765042/Screenshot_20230203_040152.png
Curse's average damage is 5729 and max damage is 8022. Crushing shock's 3-pulse average damage is 1485+1317+1299 = 4010, and max damage is ~6.5k. Even if you count the status effects, the damage is still less than Curse.
But that's not even a fair comparison. Curse is a delayed burst that can be comboed with other abilities. That alone makes Curse better than Crushing Shock.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shokasegambit1 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »RemoryAzure wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »I don't consider buffs to others to be nerfs to anything.
streak was the ONLY reason to play sorcerer.
sorc is the rarest and the weakest class in the game, after the patch there will be no more sorcs.
ofc, unless ZoS decide to buff it to be on the same level as other classes (for example +20% damage while holding lightning staff, major berserk on streak, major protection and major evasion on dark conversion, invulnerable pets and major+minor breach on haunting curse - this would be enough to place sorcerer #4 or even #3 in pvp class tier list)
Wow, drama much? Sorc is by no means the rarest or weakest class in the game and never has been. Like seriously, come on.
Which class is the rarest and which is the weakest currently?
Ranged magicka nightblade. Not Concealed Weapon NB. Pure ranged magicka nightblade with Swallow Soul for spammable.
I think he meant worst class abilities - because ZOS dev bias towards Stam Sorcs is blatantly shown.
He did ask which class is the weakest and rarest. It's ranged magicka nightblade. That spec is so bad nobody plays it except for a few OG mains.
"Ranged Magicka Nightblade" is not a class it is a spec, MagBlade is a class, choosing to play it ranged is a choice you can make, one that unfortunately doesn't work well but all classes can't be expected to be good at all specs. MagSorc as a whole doesn't have good options.
I can make the same counterargument as yours. Post hybridization, Shield Stacking Magsorc is no longer a class, but a spec. You literally have options to fix your spec's weakness (Vigor, stamina weapons for better stats if playing melee, etc.), so whether you decide to utilize them or not is your choice.
You can't possibly argue that Magsorc is the weakest class when it's actually just your old-school shield stacking spec that's underperforming. Magsorc's damage has never been bad, and hybridization gives access to heals to fix weaknesses. If you refuse to use them and simultaneously complain that the "class" is bad when it's just your specific shield stacking spec, then I think it's a bit disingenuous of an argument.
No. You're completely ignoring that every other class's in-class defensive toolkit supports these modern specs. Sorcerer's DOES NOT. That is why we're asking for changes to how our wards scale to give them the same treatment as other classes existing defense (scaling off weapon/spell damage). Ours is the ONLY class that still FORCES us to stack max mag to actually utilize our in-class defensive toolkit. Vigor is not a counterargument. Everyone has access to Vigor coupled with better in-class heals. Sorc gets a flying plaguebreak bomb that isn't even guaranteed to heal you when you need it.
And thats not even getting into how much more insanely telegraphed and easily blockable/dodgeable/kiteable our offensive skills are over every other classes as well. At some combination of Weapon skills and universal support skills You aren't even playing a Sorcerer. When the "default" "good" build for Sorcerer has maybe 2 class skills, you're past that point.
The class is bad.
And your suggestion will make the class OP. Wards scaling with spell damage is a recipe for disaster. I can reach 7k weapon damage in 40k HP and 2k regen. That's a 70k stamina equivalent and if the scaling is similar, I'm going to have a 24k shield cap and can easily reach 15k shields. Don't you think that's a bit broken lol? A build with 7k weapon/spell damage, 40k HP, a ton of regen because max resources don't matter, and 15k+ shields. I'm sorry but no, that idea does not work in practice, and I have top tier magsorc mains like @MetallicMonk who agree with me.
Vigor is a counter argument because you're refusing to fix your class's weakness by not running Vigor. Sorcs can survive against most people just with shields alone. Adding a Vigor will help it tank the majority of classes. I know because I've done it on my STAMSORC. A 40K HP build with Vigor and Absorbed Missile. Literally a weak shield that didn't even scale with HP and I was able to tank the majority of ranged players. That's on you if you refuse to adapt to the meta.Edited by StaticWave on 4 February 2023 06:01Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc2 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shokasegambit1 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »RemoryAzure wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »I don't consider buffs to others to be nerfs to anything.
streak was the ONLY reason to play sorcerer.
sorc is the rarest and the weakest class in the game, after the patch there will be no more sorcs.
ofc, unless ZoS decide to buff it to be on the same level as other classes (for example +20% damage while holding lightning staff, major berserk on streak, major protection and major evasion on dark conversion, invulnerable pets and major+minor breach on haunting curse - this would be enough to place sorcerer #4 or even #3 in pvp class tier list)
Wow, drama much? Sorc is by no means the rarest or weakest class in the game and never has been. Like seriously, come on.
Which class is the rarest and which is the weakest currently?
Ranged magicka nightblade. Not Concealed Weapon NB. Pure ranged magicka nightblade with Swallow Soul for spammable.
I think he meant worst class abilities - because ZOS dev bias towards Stam Sorcs is blatantly shown.
He did ask which class is the weakest and rarest. It's ranged magicka nightblade. That spec is so bad nobody plays it except for a few OG mains.
"Ranged Magicka Nightblade" is not a class it is a spec, MagBlade is a class, choosing to play it ranged is a choice you can make, one that unfortunately doesn't work well but all classes can't be expected to be good at all specs. MagSorc as a whole doesn't have good options.
I can make the same counterargument as yours. Post hybridization, Shield Stacking Magsorc is no longer a class, but a spec. You literally have options to fix your spec's weakness (Vigor, stamina weapons for better stats if playing melee, etc.), so whether you decide to utilize them or not is your choice.
You can't possibly argue that Magsorc is the weakest class when it's actually just your old-school shield stacking spec that's underperforming. Magsorc's damage has never been bad, and hybridization gives access to heals to fix weaknesses. If you refuse to use them and simultaneously complain that the "class" is bad when it's just your specific shield stacking spec, then I think it's a bit disingenuous of an argument.
No. You're completely ignoring that every other class's in-class defensive toolkit supports these modern specs. Sorcerer's DOES NOT. That is why we're asking for changes to how our wards scale to give them the same treatment as other classes existing defense (scaling off weapon/spell damage). Ours is the ONLY class that still FORCES us to stack max mag to actually utilize our in-class defensive toolkit. Vigor is not a counterargument. Everyone has access to Vigor coupled with better in-class heals. Sorc gets a flying plaguebreak bomb that isn't even guaranteed to heal you when you need it.
And thats not even getting into how much more insanely telegraphed and easily blockable/dodgeable/kiteable our offensive skills are over every other classes as well. At some combination of Weapon skills and universal support skills You aren't even playing a Sorcerer. When the "default" "good" build for Sorcerer has maybe 2 class skills, you're past that point.
The class is bad.
And your suggestion will make the class OP. Wards scaling with spell damage is a recipe for disaster. I can reach 7k weapon damage in 40k HP and 2k regen. That's a 70k stamina equivalent and if the scaling is similar, I'm going to have a 24k shield cap and can easily reach 15k shields. Don't you think that's a bit broken lol? A build with 7k weapon/spell damage, 40k HP, a ton of regen because max resources don't matter, and 15k+ shields. I'm sorry but no, that idea does not work in practice, and I have top tier magsorc mains like @MetallicMonk who agree with me.
Vigor is a counter argument because you're refusing to fix your class's weakness by not running Vigor. Sorcs can survive against most people just with shields alone. Adding a Vigor will help it tank the majority of classes. I know because I've done it on my STAMSORC. A 40K HP build with Vigor and Absorbed Missile. Literally a weak shield that didn't even scale with HP and I was able to tank the majority of ranged players. That's on you if you refuse to adapt to the meta.
Sorry but that argument doesn't hold any water. If its too big of a shield then they should reassess the shield cap.
There is no reason to force Sorcs into archaic max-stat stacking that no other class has to put up with.
Yeah, StamSorc isn't the problem. We know that. The problem is with MagSorc, "but hyrbid" isn't an excuse for half of an entire class to be completely neglected.Edited by acastanza_ESO on 4 February 2023 06:235 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shokasegambit1 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »RemoryAzure wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »I don't consider buffs to others to be nerfs to anything.
streak was the ONLY reason to play sorcerer.
sorc is the rarest and the weakest class in the game, after the patch there will be no more sorcs.
ofc, unless ZoS decide to buff it to be on the same level as other classes (for example +20% damage while holding lightning staff, major berserk on streak, major protection and major evasion on dark conversion, invulnerable pets and major+minor breach on haunting curse - this would be enough to place sorcerer #4 or even #3 in pvp class tier list)
Wow, drama much? Sorc is by no means the rarest or weakest class in the game and never has been. Like seriously, come on.
Which class is the rarest and which is the weakest currently?
Ranged magicka nightblade. Not Concealed Weapon NB. Pure ranged magicka nightblade with Swallow Soul for spammable.
I think he meant worst class abilities - because ZOS dev bias towards Stam Sorcs is blatantly shown.
He did ask which class is the weakest and rarest. It's ranged magicka nightblade. That spec is so bad nobody plays it except for a few OG mains.
"Ranged Magicka Nightblade" is not a class it is a spec, MagBlade is a class, choosing to play it ranged is a choice you can make, one that unfortunately doesn't work well but all classes can't be expected to be good at all specs. MagSorc as a whole doesn't have good options.
I can make the same counterargument as yours. Post hybridization, Shield Stacking Magsorc is no longer a class, but a spec. You literally have options to fix your spec's weakness (Vigor, stamina weapons for better stats if playing melee, etc.), so whether you decide to utilize them or not is your choice.
You can't possibly argue that Magsorc is the weakest class when it's actually just your old-school shield stacking spec that's underperforming. Magsorc's damage has never been bad, and hybridization gives access to heals to fix weaknesses. If you refuse to use them and simultaneously complain that the "class" is bad when it's just your specific shield stacking spec, then I think it's a bit disingenuous of an argument.
No. You're completely ignoring that every other class's in-class defensive toolkit supports these modern specs. Sorcerer's DOES NOT. That is why we're asking for changes to how our wards scale to give them the same treatment as other classes existing defense (scaling off weapon/spell damage). Ours is the ONLY class that still FORCES us to stack max mag to actually utilize our in-class defensive toolkit. Vigor is not a counterargument. Everyone has access to Vigor coupled with better in-class heals. Sorc gets a flying plaguebreak bomb that isn't even guaranteed to heal you when you need it.
And thats not even getting into how much more insanely telegraphed and easily blockable/dodgeable/kiteable our offensive skills are over every other classes as well. At some combination of Weapon skills and universal support skills You aren't even playing a Sorcerer. When the "default" "good" build for Sorcerer has maybe 2 class skills, you're past that point.
The class is bad.
And your suggestion will make the class OP. Wards scaling with spell damage is a recipe for disaster. I can reach 7k weapon damage in 40k HP and 2k regen. That's a 70k stamina equivalent and if the scaling is similar, I'm going to have a 24k shield cap and can easily reach 15k shields. Don't you think that's a bit broken lol? A build with 7k weapon/spell damage, 40k HP, a ton of regen because max resources don't matter, and 15k+ shields. I'm sorry but no, that idea does not work in practice, and I have top tier magsorc mains like @MetallicMonk who agree with me.
Vigor is a counter argument because you're refusing to fix your class's weakness by not running Vigor. Sorcs can survive against most people just with shields alone. Adding a Vigor will help it tank the majority of classes. I know because I've done it on my STAMSORC. A 40K HP build with Vigor and Absorbed Missile. Literally a weak shield that didn't even scale with HP and I was able to tank the majority of ranged players. That's on you if you refuse to adapt to the meta.
Sorry but that argument doesn't hold any water. If its too big of a shield then they should reassess the shield cap.
There is no reason to force Sorcs into archaic max-stat stacking that no other class has to put up with.
Yeah, StamSorc isn't the problem. We know that. The problem is with MagSorc, "but hyrbid" isn't an excuse for half of an entire class to be completely neglected.
The shield cap is based off max HP. It's the scaling that I'm talking about and I'm going to break it down so people understand why it's a bad idea.
Assuming the scaling is similar, aka 100 magicka/stamina = 1 spell dmg/weapon dmg, then at 4k spell/weapon damage you are going to have an equivalent of 40k magicka. 4k spell/weapon damage is very easy to achieve on any class with little investment. Right off the bat, we can see the problem with this.
Now let's say I bump the max magicka equivalence to 55k, which is what most magsorcs want to sit at. That's 5.5k spell damage. I can reach that number with 1 average weapon/spell damage set. I'm going to have a 12k shield just 1 5-piece set investment.
This basically will allow me to do the following things:
1) Run another 5-piece defensive set, a defensive monster set, and still have the same shield strength as a 55k magicka build.
2) Stack 7k spell damage (very doable with the right sets), and exceed what max mag builds can do by a huge margin.
3) Run full sustain and still have the same shield strength as a 55k magicka build
All of this with very little investment. Do you see the problem?
Realistically, most magsorcs will drop max magicka, run 6k+ spell damage to give them shields equivalent to what a 60k max mag would have, then dump everything into sustain and max HP because max mag doesn't matter when you have 3k+ magicka regen. They'd sit at 35k+ HP with 13k shields and magicka to sustain it, while also dealing decent damage.
OR, they can also keep their HP and recovery the same, but wear all spell damage sets and bump that value to 7k, and literally get a 15k shield. 15k shield is the cap for a 25k HP build. Add Dampen, and that's an effective ~28k extra HP to put them at over 50k effective HP, all while having 7k spell dmg and decent sustain lol.
Sorc and NB are two classes that have a huge gap between top tier and average players solely because of how gimped their spec is compared to better classes. This change will literally make top tier magsorcs broken. Plenty of top tier magsorcs I know can go toe to toe with meta classes right now hitting 12-13k frags and 9-10k curses. Even they would be careful asking for such kind of buffs that can put their class over the top.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc2 -
Caribou77✭✭✭✭✭Magsorc remains gimped in pvp. Honestly cannot believe DKs got major berserk. Even DKs think this is ridiculous.
Perhaps the intent is… what?1 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@StaticWave so you make up a bunch of completely arbitrary numbers and decide based on those imaginary numbers that the entire concept is a bad idea. K.
The scaling can absolutely be balanced to a reasonable shield for a reasonable amount of offensive stats. Making up numbers that are unbalanced then saying "it doesn't work" is silly.Edited by acastanza_ESO on 4 February 2023 07:525 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »@StaticWave so you make up a bunch of completely arbitrary numbers and decide based on those imaginary numbers that the entire concept is a bad idea. K.
The scaling can absolutely be balanced to a reasonable shield for a reasonable amount of offensive stats. Making up numbers that are unbalanced then saying "it doesn't work" is silly.
40k magicka gives around 11k shield. 40k HP on the PTS with the new scaling gives around 11k shield. It would also make sense that 4k spell damage = 11k shield. I'm not making up any "arbitrary" numbers. I'm using the same scaling that ZOS is doing for my argument.
What is your proposed number that's balanced for a reasonable shield and a reasonable amount of offensive stats then? 4k spell damage to reach a similar shield value of 40k magicka? or 5k spell damage to reach a shield value of 40k mag? What about 6-7k?
The higher the spell damage requirement, the worst off it would be for you. So what exactly do you propose would be the ideal spell damage scaling value for shield? @acastanza_ESOEdited by StaticWave on 4 February 2023 08:35Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc1 -
RemoryAzure✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »No, that's not how it works. I'm comparing the tooltip of 2 abilities. You're comparing the tooltip of 2 abilities and using a set to aid 1 ability. Not a fair comparison in anyway. Curse's tooltip is significantly higher than Crushing Shock.
But that's not even a fair comparison. Curse is a delayed burst that can be comboed with other abilities. That alone makes Curse better than Crushing Shock.
but my comparison is made based on how skill actually works on practice, and ur comparison makes no sense for a real gameplay.
ur first mistake is that for some reason u want to compare crushing shock without draugrkin, but in reality noone in sound mind will ever use this skill without mentioned set. without draugrkin it is even better to go master ice staff with reach as spammable - it will noticeably increase both damage and healing compared to any non-draugrkin fire staff build.
if u want fair comparison, then compare the damage of curse on ice master build vs draugkin - and still draugrkin tooltip will be higher than curse.
ur second mistake is that u dont consider procs. the cmx u linked proves that crushing shock has bigger damage than curse - curse has an average of 5729, while crushing shock has an average of 4010 + 2081 (total procs damage divided by number of crushing shock casts) = 6091. and this is not even mentioning the fact that draurkin also increases the damage of other damage sources like poison enchant and every tick of poison status and etc.
p.s. yes i see that number of concussion procs is bigger than number of casts but if only ur friend changed useless charged weapon enchant to poison, his damage with draurkin set could skyrocket, coz poison has similar damage with burning and has 100% chance to apply on enchants with charged trait. i'll leave it to u if u want to consider poison proc as part of spammable, but i clearly see it as a part of draugrkin playstyle, while on ice master build i would go for a weapon damage enchant instead, for more burst damage and healing, which will also increase the tooltip for curse
and finally, no, curse doesnt have it's "delayed burst potential", as i said earlier, ability to be "comboed" with spammable doesnt make it useful - the damage on curse is just too trash to use this skill.0 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭RemoryAzure wrote: »and finally, no, curse doesnt have it's "delayed burst potential", as i said earlier, ability to be "comboed" with spammable doesnt make it useful - the damage on curse is just too trash to use this skill.
I won't pretend to have access to combat metrics (console,) or know exactly how good draugrkin is... But I think if you want your point to be considered you need to consider the points made against you as well. To establish trust.
The fact that curse is delayed burst DOES make it useful. So much so that your denial of it makes me want to side with Static on the other half of the discussion as well. That's how that works.
Static is here fighting for buffs but at the same time openly not wanting sorc to become OP. That level of honesty is refreshing and establishes a lot of trust.
1 -
AdamLAD✭✭✭✭✭It's so easy to fix. Buff all Wards by 25% reduce the cost in half. Flat buff our execute by 20% and rework some of our completely useless passives. Fixed.1
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RemoryAzure✭✭✭
but it doesn't, huh? ._. i already explained why - how much curse hits in reality? like 4-5k max noncrit? 8k max crit in static's cmx. how does it help against 35-40k hp players? when u arent going to kill ur enemy with a single burst (which is never the case of sorc), the only thing that matters is sustained dps, and using curse lowers ur dps coz it hits less than pulse, not mentioning that it makes weaving harder than just using spammable and requires 1 more slot on the bar that can be used for something actually goodThe fact that curse is delayed burst DOES make it useful. So much so that your denial of it makes me want to side with Static on the other half of the discussion as well. That's how that works.Edited by RemoryAzure on 4 February 2023 14:080 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭See you're trying to use A as an example for B but without establishing trust first I don't believe A. It sounds to me like your draugrkin pulse hits harder than curse only because of the build you're running and actually the base tooltip of curse IS higher than pulse. So first of all you should admit that. Also realize that if crystal weapon is your spammable instead of pulse then you can keep up pressure, not lose a GCD, and use Curse literally at the same time.
It sounds like you've found a good style for the way you play. It's probably effective. It might (MIGHT,) even be more effective. But "every sorc should wear draugrkin," just isn't a good stance to take when discussing sorcs as a whole. And "delayed burst isn't as good as pressure," isn't a good stance to take for ESO PvP as a whole.2 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭People should really keep the discussion to sorcs baseline skills, not what a particular build does...that's a different topic.
2 -
RemoryAzure✭✭✭
- ofc the BASE tooltip on pulse is the lowest of all spammables, its 2064 vs 2160 on other ranged skills vs 2400 for melee vs 2961 on dw's rapid strikes. it makes no sense to use pulse in any build that not includes draugrkin coz that thing combined with charged trait is what places pulse on the 1st-2nd place of all spammables in the game if u test them on a dummy in an appropriate builds without using anything else, the result will be very close between pulse, rapid strikes and lethal arrow with fully stacked passiveIt sounds to me like your draugrkin pulse hits harder than curse only because of the build you're running and actually the base tooltip of curse IS higher than pulse. So first of all you should admit that. Also realize that if crystal weapon is your spammable instead of pulse then you can keep up pressure, not lose a GCD, and use Curse literally at the same time.
- both curse and crystal weapon fully takes their gcd on usage and afaik cannot be anicancelled into each other, i assume u are talking about using curse before the 2nd LA buffed with CW. this way, yes, curse is basically a free dps increase, coz instead of a 2k base dmg CW u are utilizing gcd on 2nd hit of CW for 0.8k + 3k delayed hit of curse, making this gcd to deal almost double the damage. probably a nice idea, but its a pain to play constantly like that, especially in cyro
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StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RemoryAzure wrote: »
but it doesn't, huh? ._. i already explained why - how much curse hits in reality? like 4-5k max noncrit? 8k max crit in static's cmx. how does it help against 35-40k hp players? when u arent going to kill ur enemy with a single burst (which is never the case of sorc), the only thing that matters is sustained dps, and using curse lowers ur dps coz it hits less than pulse, not mentioning that it makes weaving harder than just using spammable and requires 1 more slot on the bar that can be used for something actually goodThe fact that curse is delayed burst DOES make it useful. So much so that your denial of it makes me want to side with Static on the other half of the discussion as well. That's how that works.
Draugrkin is a niche set and was nerfed. There are currently better sets than Draugrkin to use on magsorc.
I would agree with you if you’re talking about DPS. Yes, Crushing Shock, a spammable, will deal more DPS than Curse simply because it’s casted every second, whereas Curse goes off every 3 seconds.
However, the tooltip of Curse is still significantly higher than that of Crushing Shock, which was what I argued about when I said mathematically Curse deals more damage. Furthermore, the fact that Curse is a delayed burst makes it more useful for two important reasons:
1) It’s a strong delayed burst. Delayed bursts are VERY rare in the game. You can only access it via class skills. The next universal delayed bursts are Volcanic Rune, Proxi Det, and a few more that I can’t remember. All of them can’t match the same effectiveness as Curse. Delayed bursts are very useful because you can time it with your spammable to deal a surge of damage in a short amount of time, thereby bypassing his HoT to land a killing blow.
4 casts of Crushing Shock will NOT have a better chance of killing a player compared to 3 casts of Crushing Shock and 1 Curse.
2) Curse is one of the few delayed bursts that is UNDODGABLE, UNBLOCKABLE, and reveals a cloaking NB.
Obviously this is not a fair comparison, but there are many spammables in the game, but not many good delayed burst. There’s a good reason for that.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭In PvP, the most effective build is one that has both pressure and burst. DK has a lot of pressure with their DoTs and burst with Molten Whip and Leap. Templar had a lot of pressure with Jabs + Burning Light and burst with Purifying Light. NB has a lot of pressure with Debilitate + SA and burst with Spectral Bow. Sorc has a lot of pressure with Crushing Shock/Frag and burst with Curse, etc.
The pressure is there to prevent a player from healing up, and the burst is there to quickly kill someone before they can use their burst heal. If you remove burst from the equation, in this case Curse, you remove the ability to quickly kill someone through their heals. If I can time Curse + Overload + Frag, I can deal upwards of 20k damage in less than a second. That amount of burst damage will make many players panic, which is good for you, and also go through his HoT and give you that window to land an execute. However, you also need pressure to counter his HoTs and keep him at low HP for longer.
If you remove pressure from the equation, in this case Crushing Shock + Frag, you remove the ability to wear him down and nullify his HoTs. If I can land a 20k burst but don’t have the pressure to stop him from healing up, then I can’t finish him off.
This is why in every build I make, I always have at least 2 DoTs, followed by at least 1 delayed burst, and then a spammable.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc0 -
kurbbie_s✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »RemoryAzure wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »I don't consider buffs to others to be nerfs to anything.
streak was the ONLY reason to play sorcerer.
sorc is the rarest and the weakest class in the game, after the patch there will be no more sorcs.
ofc, unless ZoS decide to buff it to be on the same level as other classes (for example +20% damage while holding lightning staff, major berserk on streak, major protection and major evasion on dark conversion, invulnerable pets and major+minor breach on haunting curse - this would be enough to place sorcerer #4 or even #3 in pvp class tier list)
I'm not debating the weak state of magsorc, its terrible. But, I don't consider buffs elsewhere to be nerfs to sorcs.
They kind of are nerfs to sorcs when the uniqueness of sorc skills are made available to everyone. It further pushes sorc behind the other classes, who can now do the same thing with none of the drawbacks and all of the existing strengths of their classes. It's an effective nerf.
Nothing was killed. Mist is nothing like a streak.
Did you read the patch notes? Mistform was reworked to be a teleport. It is, in fact, better than Ball of Lightning because it doesn't have the cooldown on projectile absorption and you get better secondary effects, in addition to being a ground-cast target so you can actually go where you want to go rather than Streak/Ball's only-forward fixed range teleport.
Did You log on PTS to see how it works? I did.
ZoS is known for using misleading words in their patch notes. In the game ability is actually described as a "dash" and works nothing like a streak. I edited one of my posts above to describe how mist works.
it is like streak tho lol. it has the same range but also costs LESS + has the extras to come with it like projectile absorb + healing or major evasion + expedition.
only difference is that mist is slightly slower
It's not tho lol.
It's not teleporting You the way streak does You are just moving normally while in cloud the only difference with current live version of mist is that You can dodge and sprint while in 1 second cloud animation but You cannot jump. it's not "slightly" slower, it's just basically 1 second/15 meters, 3 projectile absorbing skill with an animatioin of a clould. There is no unique mobility capabilities in it.
oh so it doesnt add major buffs, as well as 300 wd/sd when you leave the form? [snip]
[edited for rude/insulting comment]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 4 February 2023 18:230 -
RemoryAzure✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »<There are currently better sets than Draugrkin to use on magsorc.>
<I would agree with you if you’re talking about DPS. Yes, Crushing Shock, a spammable, will deal more DPS than Curse simply because it’s casted every second, whereas Curse goes off every 3 seconds.>
<However, the tooltip of Curse is still significantly higher than that of Crushing Shock>
<4 casts of Crushing Shock will NOT have a better chance of killing a player compared to 3 casts of Crushing Shock and 1 Curse.>
<Curse is one of the few delayed bursts that is UNDODGABLE, UNBLOCKABLE, and reveals a cloaking NB.>
and again, u are wrong in every possible way...
<>
debatable, but i dont see anything better than draugrkin on a magsorc. its either crushing shock + draugrkin, or ice reach + ice master + way of fire
<>
as i said before and as ur friend's cmx proved, a single hit from a curse hits LESS than a single hit from a crushing shock. if curse was a single hit spammable, it would still deal less dps than a crushing shock on a magsorc. just because. this is a fact u have to agree with.
<>
simple math for the 3rd time:
curse base 2999 dmg
crushing shock base 696x2 + 696x1.05 (passive) + 179x0.5 (chill proc every 2nd cast on average) + 179x0.5x1.05 (same for concussion) + 359x1.7 (burning can deal damage twice with a single attack - one from the tick of previously applied burning, and one from newly procced one, 1.7 is the multiplier literally from ur friend, 93 ticks with 55 attacks) + 323x0.75 (poison enchant, procs 3 times per 4 secs, coz proc chance with charged trait is 100% for enchants and it renews on every 2nd tick making it effectively tick once-twice-once-twice every 2 sec) = 3159 base damage per average crushing shock cast.
without draugrkin. which adds in average (3+0.5+0.5+1.7+0.75)*330 = 2128.5 damage every second. which proc set is giving u more than 2k damage per second considering colldowns, huh?
<>
4 casts of crushing shock deal more damage than 3 crushing + curse. therefore they have more chance to kill someone. 3 crushing + curse would be better if it only had atleast 4k base damage tooltip. right now curse barely touches a few pixels on hp bar, it never creates a situation where being combined with other skills, the whole combo is able to kill anybody decently built. it just does not. sorc is not nb to burst down an enemy.
<>
the only thing i cant disagree, but thats not enough for me to justify curse's existense. ele sus and streak both also reveals nb. still not enough to counterplay a decent nb without a proper vision ability like magelight. ele sus is taking the place on my bar instead of curse and its giving me a lot more profit0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And your suggestion will make the class OP. Wards scaling with spell damage is a recipe for disaster. I can reach 7k weapon damage in 40k HP and 2k regen. That's a 70k stamina equivalent and if the scaling is similar, I'm going to have a 24k shield cap and can easily reach 15k shields. Don't you think that's a bit broken lol? A build with 7k weapon/spell damage, 40k HP, a ton of regen because max resources don't matter, and 15k+ shields. I'm sorry but no, that idea does not work in practice, and I have top tier magsorc mains like @MetallicMonk who agree with me.
I think the small change to wards will have zero impact, other than to make wards accessible to stam sorcs (and gimp them in the process).
Heals already scale from spell damage, crit, and have no limit to scaling. That is why healing is so strong, and so much better than wards. The disaster already happened. The only difference is that sorcerers missed out on the good times because they have wards.
Every meta build right now has max health, regens and massive weapon/spell damage. That is the meta. It gives you top tier damage, top tier healing, and your mag/stam matter only to the point that you have enough to get your combos off. Why on earth would anyone invest in magicka or stamina when you can get over 50% buff to spell/weapon damage?
On top of that max stat sets are ALL entry level. Crafty Alfiq 5th piece with normal buffs equals ~280 spell damage. Hundings with normal buffs, equals 450. Something like Clever Alchemist is 922.
That is one of the big reasons why mag sorc is so bad right now.Edited by katorga on 4 February 2023 18:184 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Seriously, ZOS is putting passive minor expedition and 10% damage, 100% crit rate, major berserk on ***spammables***. This is garbage.
Yet there is no major protection on hardened ward.
I did suggest it in one of my threads but a bunch of elites shoot it down like the rest of the game is picture perfect and mag sorc buff will spoil their party.
At this point, I do get the feeling most elites also do not want mag sorc buffed.
I mean most mag sorc mains would probably kick them off their high pedestal.
Atleast I did from murkmire to Elsweyr. 😉
1 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭And your suggestion will make the class OP. Wards scaling with spell damage is a recipe for disaster. I can reach 7k weapon damage in 40k HP and 2k regen. That's a 70k stamina equivalent and if the scaling is similar, I'm going to have a 24k shield cap and can easily reach 15k shields. Don't you think that's a bit broken lol? A build with 7k weapon/spell damage, 40k HP, a ton of regen because max resources don't matter, and 15k+ shields. I'm sorry but no, that idea does not work in practice, and I have top tier magsorc mains like @MetallicMonk who agree with me.
I think the small change to wards will have zero impact, other than to make wards accessible to stam sorcs (and gimp them in the process).
Heals already scale from spell damage, crit, and have no limit to scaling. That is why healing is so strong, and so much better than wards. The disaster already happened. The only difference is that sorcerers missed out on the good times because they have wards.
Every meta build right now has max health, regens and massive weapon/spell damage. That is the meta. It gives you top tier damage, top tier healing, and your mag/stam matter only to the point that you have enough to get your combos off. Why on earth would anyone invest in magicka or stamina when you can get over 50% buff to spell/weapon damage?
On top of that max stat sets are ALL entry level. Crafty Alfiq 5th piece with normal buffs equals ~280 spell damage. Hundings with normal buffs, equals 450. Something like Clever Alchemist is 922.
That is one of the big reasons why mag sorc is so bad right now.
shields scaling on spell damage will not make stam sorc op.
Have they even checked the mag cost of hardened ward ?1 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »RemoryAzure wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »I don't consider buffs to others to be nerfs to anything.
streak was the ONLY reason to play sorcerer.
sorc is the rarest and the weakest class in the game, after the patch there will be no more sorcs.
ofc, unless ZoS decide to buff it to be on the same level as other classes (for example +20% damage while holding lightning staff, major berserk on streak, major protection and major evasion on dark conversion, invulnerable pets and major+minor breach on haunting curse - this would be enough to place sorcerer #4 or even #3 in pvp class tier list)
I'm not debating the weak state of magsorc, its terrible. But, I don't consider buffs elsewhere to be nerfs to sorcs.
They kind of are nerfs to sorcs when the uniqueness of sorc skills are made available to everyone. It further pushes sorc behind the other classes, who can now do the same thing with none of the drawbacks and all of the existing strengths of their classes. It's an effective nerf.
Nothing was killed. Mist is nothing like a streak.
Did you read the patch notes? Mistform was reworked to be a teleport. It is, in fact, better than Ball of Lightning because it doesn't have the cooldown on projectile absorption and you get better secondary effects, in addition to being a ground-cast target so you can actually go where you want to go rather than Streak/Ball's only-forward fixed range teleport.
Did You log on PTS to see how it works? I did.
ZoS is known for using misleading words in their patch notes. In the game ability is actually described as a "dash" and works nothing like a streak. I edited one of my posts above to describe how mist works.
it is like streak tho lol. it has the same range but also costs LESS + has the extras to come with it like projectile absorb + healing or major evasion + expedition.
only difference is that mist is slightly slower
It's not tho lol.
It's not teleporting You the way streak does You are just moving normally while in cloud the only difference with current live version of mist is that You can dodge and sprint while in 1 second cloud animation but You cannot jump. it's not "slightly" slower, it's just basically 1 second/15 meters, 3 projectile absorbing skill with an animatioin of a clould. There is no unique mobility capabilities in it.
oh so it doesnt add major buffs, as well as 300 wd/sd when you leave the form? [snip]
[edited for rude/insulting comment]
What's Your point excatly? Mist also does not provide strongest stun in the game. It gives more defense but less control.0
