nerf siege

Alchimiste1

Luede wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@luede thats a great paragraph and all. Filled with your opinions but I just want to reiterate.

12k cold fire that is effectively oblivion damage is over-tuned. Ty have a good one.

yes granted, sets should have no influence on siege weapons, but honestly, the thread would exist even if it were 9k instead of 12k. or would the world be fine with 9k for you?

That would be a 25% damage deduction which I would be fine with

Theignson

I noticed I started to take insane damage from oils and cold fire a couple months ago. Cold fire used to tick 3 times, it ticks 5-6 times. Oil also ticks more if you get hit by the initial tick. I looked into it and found out it is from Elf Bane.

Some people say it is a bug, but it could be a stealth buff by ZOS to counter unkillable tanks and ball groups. Until they tell us, how could we know?

I am not Uber like some of the Legends in this post, however I've played enough to enjoy running around inside enemy keeps with 10 players chasing me. Occasionally I can kill some of them. But recently if you are on a keep tower, it is saturated by 4-5 elf bane cold fires. So you can't really hang around and try to 1vX, or else you get nuked. This does indeed take the fun out of it. But I don't blame those siegers. If ZOS gives them the tools they should use them.

Running around without a group, I try to avoid those 4 man premades in Comms. I won't go into the tower with them. That is guaranteed death. 4v1 is the same ratio as 16v4 , which is usually how those premades are killed off.

Can you learn from being 4v1 by a pre-made? Well, you learn the general things :1) avoid letting your health go below 50% 2) keep you buffs up. 3) use LOS. But most of all I think you learn : try not to get in a situation where those 4 mans can vacuum up your AP. If it is 4 pugs, that is entirely different.

Flangdoodle

Siege wouldn't need to nerfed or balanced if it would just render the same as any other incoming damage. Why is it I can see someone's Destro Ult light up on the other side of a wall but 1 out of 3 times I can't even see when someone is dumping oils directly on top of me?

Four_Fingers

Flangdoodle wrote: »

Siege wouldn't need to nerfed or balanced if it would just render the same as any other incoming damage. Why is it I can see someone's Destro Ult light up on the other side of a wall but 1 out of 3 times I can't even see when someone is dumping oils directly on top of me?

You mean you are unaware someone may dump oil when you are standing under a murder hole or other location where oil could be placed?
You have to anticipate in PvP as well as kill things.

nuttytom

Marcus684 wrote: »

So, you’re one of those players that I see from time to time that have figured out how to negate 90+% of just about every source of incoming damage, and now you want ZOS to nerf one of the very few sources of damage left that you have to respect.

? what? I absolutely wish i could negate 90% of incoming damage lmfao where are you getting this from? I dont have to respect siege damage, i have to try and avoid getting hit by the 20 i have shooting me because just 1 does way too much.

OBJnoob

nuttytom wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

So, you’re one of those players that I see from time to time that have figured out how to negate 90+% of just about every source of incoming damage, and now you want ZOS to nerf one of the very few sources of damage left that you have to respect.

? what? I absolutely wish i could negate 90% of incoming damage lmfao where are you getting this from? I dont have to respect siege damage, i have to try and avoid getting hit by the 20 i have shooting me because just 1 does way too much.

That's what they mean by respect. People who work dangerous jobs, for instance, are normally told "you don't have to be afraid of it-- just respect it," whatever it may be. Not saying you need to give people who siege respect.

Still no video of these 20 siege though, huh? I can see how a concerted siege effort against you would be problematic and feel cheesey. I do question how frequently it happens or to what degree of magnitude. Since I've been promised videos of it twice but haven't received any in 2+ months of discussion, I'm obviously going to default to my original opinion.

It either doesn't happen quite the way it's being described-- and therefore can't be clipped-- or it just isn't that important to you. Therefore it isn't important to me.

VaranisArano

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Flangdoodle wrote: »

Siege wouldn't need to nerfed or balanced if it would just render the same as any other incoming damage. Why is it I can see someone's Destro Ult light up on the other side of a wall but 1 out of 3 times I can't even see when someone is dumping oils directly on top of me?

You mean you are unaware someone may dump oil when you are standing under a murder hole or other location where oil could be placed?
You have to anticipate in PvP as well as kill things.

Yes, anticipation is good tactics...but it's an performance issue when stuff renders inconsistently. It never feels good to lose to something you maybe could've avoided if only you could've seen like the Devs intended.

Now, the ideal solution would be for the Devs to fix performance. But I'm not holding my breath.

Alchimiste1

OBJnoob wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

So, you’re one of those players that I see from time to time that have figured out how to negate 90+% of just about every source of incoming damage, and now you want ZOS to nerf one of the very few sources of damage left that you have to respect.

? what? I absolutely wish i could negate 90% of incoming damage lmfao where are you getting this from? I dont have to respect siege damage, i have to try and avoid getting hit by the 20 i have shooting me because just 1 does way too much.

That's what they mean by respect. People who work dangerous jobs, for instance, are normally told "you don't have to be afraid of it-- just respect it," whatever it may be. Not saying you need to give people who siege respect.

Still no video of these 20 siege though, huh? I can see how a concerted siege effort against you would be problematic and feel cheesey. I do question how frequently it happens or to what degree of magnitude. Since I've been promised videos of it twice but haven't received any in 2+ months of discussion, I'm obviously going to default to my original opinion.

It either doesn't happen quite the way it's being described-- and therefore can't be clipped-- or it just isn't that important to you. Therefore it isn't important to me.

do you want one from me? I can go out and get one in like 10 minutes

OBJnoob

@Alchimiste1 Yes of course. It doesn't matter who it comes from.

Alchimiste1

@OBJnoob just a quick clip because I'm limited to upload file size.

https://streamable.com/g4ato0

Some quick thinks to note. It was just me there for a long while and I was still being sieged. There are 2 oils, 1 lancer, and 2 cold fires on us while we are already being outnumbered. I only survived because I was Luckly enough to have already had corrosive active when I went up. it's not 20 sieges but in your original comment you said you wanted at least twice the siege as the number of players there were so there you go.

TechMaybeHic

Its become a strategy to just build tanking and rely on siege for damage, have one tanky with pulls to be sieged at. I have a clip where we just tried to run up and take out the siege they had at Ash mile gate and they just pointed it at each other and turtled. We cleared the east side, but then nowhere to go. Good use of it, but I wonder how long until we all just start building to just point siege back

Cloudrest

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Its become a strategy to just build tanking and rely on siege for damage, have one tanky with pulls to be sieged at. I have a clip where we just tried to run up and take out the siege they had at Ash mile gate and they just pointed it at each other and turtled. We cleared the east side, but then nowhere to go. Good use of it, but I wonder how long until we all just start building to just point siege back

There's now at least two people on DC who do nothing but place down siege whenever they get into combat outnumbering me at a resource.

They're both Templars, too.

OBJnoob

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@OBJnoob just a quick clip because I'm limited to upload file size.

https://streamable.com/g4ato0

Some quick thinks to note. It was just me there for a long while and I was still being sieged. There are 2 oils, 1 lancer, and 2 cold fires on us while we are already being outnumbered. I only survived because I was Luckly enough to have already had corrosive active when I went up. it's not 20 sieges but in your original comment you said you wanted at least twice the siege as the number of players there were so there you go.

Well I appreciate the video. Since it's only 14 seconds long I can't really say much I guess... But umm, maybe a small clip of you actually dying to siege would've been more meaningful to your argument.

This clip actually makes siege seem pretty ineffectual because you are using two perfect counters to it-- Corrosive and Mist Form.

Perhaps if there were less Corrosive Mist Formers running around towers people wouldn't be so quick to siege?

Nobody wants to chase a Mist Forming DK bro. Be real.

TechMaybeHic

Cloudrest wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Its become a strategy to just build tanking and rely on siege for damage, have one tanky with pulls to be sieged at. I have a clip where we just tried to run up and take out the siege they had at Ash mile gate and they just pointed it at each other and turtled. We cleared the east side, but then nowhere to go. Good use of it, but I wonder how long until we all just start building to just point siege back

There's now at least two people on DC who do nothing but place down siege whenever they get into combat outnumbering me at a resource.

They're both Templars, too.

There has to be some sort of middle ground where strategic siege is useful, yet not the end all. I expect to eventually die outnumbered. And I get blasting someone who's just there holding block or trying to land a devastating hit in someone running around a tower; but it's gotten to a point where people do it right in front of you and build for it, wether tanky or to get bigger ticks for longer duration; which I know they do it even if people says it's a myth; it's out there.

TechMaybeHic

OBJnoob wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@OBJnoob just a quick clip because I'm limited to upload file size.

https://streamable.com/g4ato0

Some quick thinks to note. It was just me there for a long while and I was still being sieged. There are 2 oils, 1 lancer, and 2 cold fires on us while we are already being outnumbered. I only survived because I was Luckly enough to have already had corrosive active when I went up. it's not 20 sieges but in your original comment you said you wanted at least twice the siege as the number of players there were so there you go.

Well I appreciate the video. Since it's only 14 seconds long I can't really say much I guess... But umm, maybe a small clip of you actually dying to siege would've been more meaningful to your argument.

This clip actually makes siege seem pretty ineffectual because you are using two perfect counters to it-- Corrosive and Mist Form.

Perhaps if there were less Corrosive Mist Formers running around towers people wouldn't be so quick to siege?

Nobody wants to chase a Mist Forming DK bro. Be real.

I'll put one up later. There was a bunch of DC but just our group of 6 actually going after the siege posing any threat whatsoever to the siegers . They found it better to points siege at us than fight. And I don't run with a group of people with a high level of skill requirement. Just friends who are willing to show up. It was just more effective to siege

OBJnoob

@TechMaybeHic if you put a clip up I'll certainly watch it. I agree with all of you that the vicious death and elf bane interactions with siege is bull crap. So there's no need to prove that to me. And the circles indicators should always show up and block should work-- all that.

I am a little bit incredulous as to the frequency of it happening, obviously, and to what degree. So that's what I'm looking at in a video-- which is why I'd prefer it have a little length to it.

If a group of 10 is getting wiped once or twice and THEN resort to siege I kinda feel like okay, these lesser players deserve to get themselves out of this jam somehow. If they resort to sieging right off the bat then I agree it's pretty lame and MAYBE something should be done about it.

But there's also some other factors that we should be honest about. Siege MAY be too strong. Corrosive armor and mist form (live version,) may be too strong as well. If you main a mist form DK and you're out there Xing every night and therefore you have a reputation... Well, what do you expect?

Dropping siege immediately on an Xer is slightly dishonorable in my personal opinion. Dropping siege immediately on someone that Mists from Corrosive to Corrosive strikes me as MUCH more appropriate and fair.

Necrotech_Master

Cloudrest wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

we were farming [...] in an enemy trikeep

Well, there's your problem. Maybe don't do that. Many people consider hiding out in trikeeps to be greifing, and will respond accordingly (with overwhelming force). It isn't cool. There are always plenty of active fights on the map.

bro not everyone wants to run around in zerg v zerg fights

BG's are always an option!

Lol. BG's are boring. I prefer 4v20 heavily outnumbered fights in trikeeps. I like it when factions respond with overwhelming force.

I don't like it, however, when there's 15 people sitting on the walls, afraid to come down and PvP, spamming unblockable coldfire siege that does 12k DPS through block. If you wanna run around and not PvP, I hear Domination is a great mode in BG's for you!

if i know for a fact i cant take someone 1v1 based on how they are playing, im either going to A ) ignore them and go somewhere else and not waste the time or B ) use siege to help end the nonsense faster and secure the keep if theres nothing else popping up on the map

if your succeeding at 1vXing that many people, of course they are using siege, it would be completely nonsense to try to fight you toe to toe for someone of average skill level or pvp experience

i avoid these kind of fights because they are poor for AP, the defense ticks are generally pretty low for clearing out a couple people, would rather attempt to defend a keep slightly outnumbered than trying to force out a ball group (if your 4v20+ people, thats the definition of a ball group in my opinion)

Cloudrest

OBJnoob wrote: »

@TechMaybeHic if you put a clip up I'll certainly watch it. I agree with all of you that the vicious death and elf bane interactions with siege is bull crap. So there's no need to prove that to me. And the circles indicators should always show up and block should work-- all that.

I am a little bit incredulous as to the frequency of it happening, obviously, and to what degree. So that's what I'm looking at in a video-- which is why I'd prefer it have a little length to it.

If a group of 10 is getting wiped once or twice and THEN resort to siege I kinda feel like okay, these lesser players deserve to get themselves out of this jam somehow. If they resort to sieging right off the bat then I agree it's pretty lame and MAYBE something should be done about it.

But there's also some other factors that we should be honest about. Siege MAY be too strong. Corrosive armor and mist form (live version,) may be too strong as well. If you main a mist form DK and you're out there Xing every night and therefore you have a reputation... Well, what do you expect?

Dropping siege immediately on an Xer is slightly dishonorable in my personal opinion. Dropping siege immediately on someone that Mists from Corrosive to Corrosive strikes me as MUCH more appropriate and fair.

Here's 9 siege (including the trebuchet) being fired at us when I was playing with Orgorlord's group tonight from a wall. This doesn't take into account the people that were setting up meatbags on the ground below, or coldfire ballistas to fire into the tower when we already had 15-20 people ontop of us.



This is pretty par for the course for playing in a group. When I'm 1vXing, however, I still have people setting up siege against me when I'm already woefully outnumbered. Usually I'll get teabagged by the person who set up siege, too, when I finally die to 8 seconds of a 12k unblockable DoT.

The problem is with siege is that it's unblockable and sets like elfbane are extending the duration of the already unblockable damage ticks. I'm fine with siege being strong (and it should be strong), but it's way too strong as it is currently. It shouldn't be unblockable, and it shouldn't be affected whatsoever by sets.

maxjapank

All I've gotten from this thread is that a few players want to farm others. As long as they can do this, they're happy. But when players are tired of being farmed and are using other means to stop this behavior, then it's suddenly a problem. If you are unhappy with siege, then move away. If you wanna farm players, maybe drag players to areas where it is more difficult to put up siege.

Alchimiste1

OBJnoob wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@OBJnoob just a quick clip because I'm limited to upload file size.

https://streamable.com/g4ato0

Some quick thinks to note. It was just me there for a long while and I was still being sieged. There are 2 oils, 1 lancer, and 2 cold fires on us while we are already being outnumbered. I only survived because I was Luckly enough to have already had corrosive active when I went up. it's not 20 sieges but in your original comment you said you wanted at least twice the siege as the number of players there were so there you go.

Well I appreciate the video. Since it's only 14 seconds long I can't really say much I guess... But umm, maybe a small clip of you actually dying to siege would've been more meaningful to your argument.

This clip actually makes siege seem pretty ineffectual because you are using two perfect counters to it-- Corrosive and Mist Form.

Perhaps if there were less Corrosive Mist Formers running around towers people wouldn't be so quick to siege?

Nobody wants to chase a Mist Forming DK bro. Be real.

I feel like no matter how much proof I show there are always excuses for why siege is fine.

Maybe if siege wasn't basically oblivion damage, I wouldn't have to be mist forming around ?
Once again, no need to get rid of siege, it just needs to be adjusted a bit

OBJnoob

You showed a 14 second clip where you were hit by coldfires and fire lancers and it did next to nothing to you.

[snip]

I'm kinda a jerk on these forums I suppose. I prefer to talk about things I disagree about than join discussions where other people are already expressing my thoughts. BUT. I am also a person who WILL swallow my pride and apologize publicly if proven wrong.

I've been steeling myself for what I'm going to do if someone shows a truly compelling clip. A month or two later, that still hasn't happened.

One guy promises me twice to produce a clip and doesn't. I produce my own clip which gets aggressively and incorrectly interpreted. You produce a clip that better supports my view than your own. Someone else says they can get a clip it'll only take stepping foot in cyrodiil for 10 minutes... Still waiting on that.

Honestly I've been more than patient waiting for proof of things that people swear happens to them nightly. The statute of limitations is now up on this issue. Even a good clip would leave me suspicious because it taking this long to be produced implies to me the problem isn't as widespread as people are claiming. Which has basically been my contention all along.

[edited for baiting]

Alchimiste1

OBJnoob wrote: »

You showed a 14 second clip where you were hit by coldfires and fire lancers and it did next to nothing to you.

[snip]

I'm kinda a jerk on these forums I suppose. I prefer to talk about things I disagree about than join discussions where other people are already expressing my thoughts. BUT. I am also a person who WILL swallow my pride and apologize publicly if proven wrong.

I've been steeling myself for what I'm going to do if someone shows a truly compelling clip. A month or two later, that still hasn't happened.

One guy promises me twice to produce a clip and doesn't. I produce my own clip which gets aggressively and incorrectly interpreted. You produce a clip that better supports my view than your own. Someone else says they can get a clip it'll only take stepping foot in cyrodiil for 10 minutes... Still waiting on that.

Honestly, I've been more than patient waiting for proof of things that people swear happens to them nightly. The statute of limitations is now up on this issue. Even a good clip would leave me suspicious because it is taking this long to be produced implies to me the problem isn't as widespread as people are claiming. Which has basically been my contention all along.

I have showed you multiple proofs not just that clip. And furthermore, I did exactly what you asked for, if you want something different than ask for it. Every single screenshot, every single video, every single logical argument you just thrown out the window (not just from myself but form others) because you think that everyone who thinks siege is over tuned has some sort of ego and or is only stating it because they never want to die and not because it's actually unbalanced.

[edited to remove quote]

Alchimiste1

if I had died in that clip instead of mist forming yall would have said something like, " just don't stand in siege." or "just don't get hit"

OBJnoob

I haven't ignored every logical argument. I have agreed that siege indicators need to be fixed to show all the time, sets shouldn't effect it, and it should be blockable. You're just mad because I won't give you the last 1 or 2.

There's only 2 points left to be made: Does siege hit too hard, and do enemies resort to it when they don't have to.

In order to prove this you showed me a 14 second clip of a Corrosive Mist Form DK shrugging off siege. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Four_Fingers

The very fact that their are counters where you can survive disproves that siege is OP to the point where you can't escape it.

Alchimiste1

Four_Fingers wrote: »

The very fact that their are counters where you can survive disproves that siege is OP to the point where you can't escape it.

yeah let me just corrosive on any other class in the game. Oh wait, I can't.

If siege was ticing for 20k+ each time would you still use that argument? No, you wouldn't because its flawed.
Seems like you just want siege to be the end all be all.

TheMightyRevan

you could even do a live stream every day, where all you do is place siege in ppl's faces and kill them with it. And ppl would still defend it, or ask for "better proof"

Four_Fingers

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

The very fact that their are counters where you can survive disproves that siege is OP to the point where you can't escape it.

yeah let me just corrosive on any other class in the game. Oh wait, I can't.

If siege was ticing for 20k+ each time would you still use that argument? No, you wouldn't because its flawed.
Seems like you just want siege to be the end all be all.

No I want solo and small scale 1vXers to wake up and realize while they can play that way Cyrodill was designed for larger scale and they will have some drawbacks doing so.

The best small scale players adjust and counter by drawing players to them out of siege range.

If you fight too close to a keep expect what you get, and if someone tries to siege in an open field that is highly risky as you are a sitting duck, and if you can't take them out then I don't have much to say.

TheMightyRevan

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

The very fact that their are counters where you can survive disproves that siege is OP to the point where you can't escape it.

yeah let me just corrosive on any other class in the game. Oh wait, I can't.

If siege was ticing for 20k+ each time would you still use that argument? No, you wouldn't because its flawed.
Seems like you just want siege to be the end all be all.

No I want solo and small scale 1vXers to wake up and realize while they can play that way Cyrodill was designed for larger scale and they will have some drawbacks doing so.

The best small scale players adjust and counter by drawing players to them out of siege range.

If you fight too close to a keep expect what you get, and if someone tries to siege in an open field that is highly risky as you are a sitting duck, and if you can't take them out then I don't have much to say.

if you think you can get a fight anywhere else than at a keep or at a ressource, where ppl will place siege, then i dont know what to tell you.

Four_Fingers

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

The very fact that their are counters where you can survive disproves that siege is OP to the point where you can't escape it.

yeah let me just corrosive on any other class in the game. Oh wait, I can't.

If siege was ticing for 20k+ each time would you still use that argument? No, you wouldn't because its flawed.
Seems like you just want siege to be the end all be all.

No I want solo and small scale 1vXers to wake up and realize while they can play that way Cyrodill was designed for larger scale and they will have some drawbacks doing so.

The best small scale players adjust and counter by drawing players to them out of siege range.

If you fight too close to a keep expect what you get, and if someone tries to siege in an open field that is highly risky as you are a sitting duck, and if you can't take them out then I don't have much to say.

if you think you can get a fight anywhere else than at a keep or at a ressource, where ppl will place siege, then i dont know what to tell you.

You kite them away from the siege, like the pros do.
Siege is artillery, should we ask armies not to use artillery?
This is a war not a street fight.