Templar underperforming

gariondavey

Syiccal wrote: »

With it being so bad this update, what you using instead or still sticking with it for minor breach and sorcery?

Just using major breach + 6k or so pen with a charged offhand on dw bar (so jabs has decent chance to apply minor breach)

Anomander72

Main toon was Templar since I joined in July 2016. Through the years I became a competent Templar, not elite but not a slouch either. Having my favorite class nerfed into the ground was pretty normal through the years but with sheer determination there were ways to make it work. Then over the pandemic, Templar became top tier and it was good times. Then U35 comes along and ruins jabs and u36 completed the neuter with the POL changes. It's now clear to me that the dev team is either utterly clueless, or is cleverly making changes to push the old vet players out so that they can focus on a solo player questing game. I am not bitter. It was a good run and I had great fun but nothing lasts forever and I get that. Voted with my wallet and unsubscribed. It is the only form of protest I have and not likely to cause a blink of the eye with ZOS, but I am done with the constant meta changes, useless gear after every three months etc. It's all been said, but the difference is I now finally agree.

axi

Problem with the templar is that as long as radiant opression works the way it works class itself will be sometimes highly overperforming in group scenario. There are templars in BGs that are built defensively just running around staying in mist form for long periods of time that will just spam elementral suscpetibility+some DoT (preferably reflective light) on all the enemies and then just wait to javelin+execute everyone who will come close to 50% hp since You cannot dodge radiant and You cannot block javelin. While this tactic is cheesy as hell very often it works.

TechMaybeHic

axi wrote: »

Problem with the templar is that as long as radiant opression works the way it works class itself will be sometimes highly overperforming in group scenario. There are templars in BGs that are built defensively just running around staying in mist for long periods of time that will just spam elementral suscpetibility+some DoT (preferably reflective light) on all the enemies and then just wait to javelin+execute everyone who will come close to 50% hp since You cannot dodge radiant and You cannot block javelin. While this tactic is cheesy as hell very often it works.

It's almost as if we've been here before

HiImRex

I liked the old backlash, you were rewarded for your ability to maximize pressure in a 6 second window with a very high single-target burst ability that otherwise did nothing.

If you were good enough, you could even utilize good positioning, aoes, and efficient use of dots to get a secondary backlash target loaded up along wi th your primary.

It was unique, challenging, and rewarding. The kind of playstyle loop that could hold someone’s attention for the long term and nurture a passion for the game.

Rhaegar75

axi wrote: »

Problem with the templar is that as long as radiant opression works the way it works class itself will be sometimes highly overperforming in group scenario. There are templars in BGs that are built defensively just running around staying in mist form for long periods of time that will just spam elementral suscpetibility+some DoT (preferably reflective light) on all the enemies and then just wait to javelin+execute everyone who will come close to 50% hp since You cannot dodge radiant and You cannot block javelin. While this tactic is cheesy as hell very often it works.

Totally my point: well written and crystal clear.

With my plar I may well get kills but it’s the same group strategy you described. Quite a sorry state

TechMaybeHic

Yeah, I have always hated Jesus beam. Replaced blinding flashes and we had not defense until they changed eclipse to have self-morph years down the road. Radiant Oppressions/Glory has always encouraged a "back of the zerg" mentality as it is so slow to activate, you need pressure from outside sources. All they did was make it oppressive under 50% as an excuse possibly to gut everything else.

It's never really mattered what class I have gone to and where they are at in the pecking order. I have done a lot of DK, NB, and now necro as it seems to have a niche that is not in the top 3 yet capable. But it's still odd having my main just sit there, that I have played since launch. It's been bad before but never so bad that you pretty much just look to Jesus beam targets from range and just turtle healer until the opportunity arises.

mmtaniac

Every classes feel better in pvp they at least playable at some point. Give templar to new player in pvp and he will be dead forever ,give him DK and he will be to able do much. Templar is specific everyone tell this is easy class, off course it's easy on pve just use jabs TA - Dah you win but try the same on pvp and you will be destroyed in every possible way.
Templar is best class to noobslaying but worst in high end pvp and was worst always. Another thing is people make new characters and there is not enough new players in pvp wchich means templar is unplayable because you can't fight with veteran with this class he know what to do. I know i cry but just look on every other classes and you know. It's just bad.

Jabbs_Giggity

gariondavey wrote: »

Nevidyra wrote: »

Templar has gone full circle, from being a healbot that spams beam from a zerg, to being a well-rounded class with multiple playstyles and power fantasies, and now we're back to being exclusively a healbot that spams beam from a zerg. Wow.

Buff jabs, buff BL, and change POTL/PL again so that Templar FINALLY has a delayed burst on par with blastbones/curse/whip that doesn't rely on an unreliable copied damage mechanic to reach its potential. Just make it a flat value, every 6s, and let us Templars get back to playing the damn game, please.

Exactly. The irony is templar is one of the worst pvp healers, competitively speaking.

@ZOS_Kevin please save us templars!

Returning Stamplar main. Left ESO between Morrowind/Necro launch due to poor PVP performance. Returned recently because of boredom from other games. Saw that ZOS finally puts Major Brutality on Jabs....noticed huge nerfs..sad already.

Remove Jabs from being affected by Major Evasion, rework POTL/PL to work as DoT damage with option to proc flat damage burst when Burning Light is active. Change morph of Jesus Beam to stam, reduce multiplier, make AOE. Remove Empower (in current state) from PVP by altering effect of Empower for PVP zones only.

Templar fixed.

Baconlad

Um. J-beam is the most powerful execute in game. I'm getting 20k crits on enemies...and it can't be dodged. You hit a javelin and beam at 25% health if the first tic of beam doesn't kill em the second will. And if the second doesn't kill them you either fudged, there's too much lag, or it wasn't meant to be....or you don't have enough damage and have too much mitigation or sustain in ur build. One tic alone with hit higher than anyone else's execute...just one tic.

Deff a great zerg surfing skill....yeah awesome. But also the best execute to run for any player while solo.



If you think templar isn't in a great spot I'd suggest you build for more damage than defense. You can easily sustain 1300 regen with vampire and smart heavy attacks. You should give up the idea of standing toe to toe with anyone...just *** on blowing people up, keep them on their backbar while you unload...ugh so much fun on my glassplar...

TechMaybeHic

Baconlad wrote: »

Um. J-beam is the most powerful execute in game. I'm getting 20k crits on enemies...and it can't be dodged. You hit a javelin and beam at 25% health if the first tic of beam doesn't kill em the second will. And if the second doesn't kill them you either fudged, there's too much lag, or it wasn't meant to be....or you don't have enough damage and have too much mitigation or sustain in ur build. One tic alone with hit higher than anyone else's execute...just one tic.

Deff a great zerg surfing skill....yeah awesome. But also the best execute to run for any player while solo.



If you think templar isn't in a great spot I'd suggest you build for more damage than defense. You can easily sustain 1300 regen with vampire and smart heavy attacks. You should give up the idea of standing toe to toe with anyone...just *** on blowing people up, keep them on their backbar while you unload...ugh so much fun on my glassplar...

Its great for zerg surfing from the back or otherwise letting someone else do the work to get them down below 50%. Its always been delayed to first tick when by itself and now all the damage to get to that 50% is bad. No respectable templar wants this cheese. EDIT: I should rephrase that. I am sure the healer archetypes that are respectable do enjoy beaming in a killing blow, but for the more independent minded templr; I'd rather be able to fight than just execute

MEBengalsFan2001

gariondavey wrote: »

Eh I've always hated how backlash functions. Before the nerf, you needed to stay on the offense for the 6 seconds or it wouldn't hit hard.
Am I upset that backlash got nerfed? Yes
Do I wish they would just rework it to be 6 second version of curse? Yes
Am I content to use beam on my bar instead of it? Yes

Imagine if curse had the similar effect to backlash where it was based on damage done to the target vs. it just going off.

gariondavey

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Eh I've always hated how backlash functions. Before the nerf, you needed to stay on the offense for the 6 seconds or it wouldn't hit hard.
Am I upset that backlash got nerfed? Yes
Do I wish they would just rework it to be 6 second version of curse? Yes
Am I content to use beam on my bar instead of it? Yes

Imagine if curse had the similar effect to backlash where it was based on damage done to the target vs. it just going off.

Sorcs would be mad
And they are already mad

TechMaybeHic

Data has to be showing them something about Templar in Cyrodiil. People I know are instant pass on kill enemy templar quest because it takes forever. Granted; its because they still can heal and turtle, but also because there are not that many of them. You have to fight your way to the back of the zerg

Jabbs_Giggity

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Data has to be showing them something about Templar in Cyrodiil. People I know are instant pass on kill enemy templar quest because it takes forever. Granted; its because they still can heal and turtle, but also because there are not that many of them. You have to fight your way to the back of the zerg

Yes. I can attest on xbox NA that I am maybe one of 20 templars running on EP. Majority of player base is running Ice Warden, NB or DK. Every group has at least one Necro bomber running convergence.

Edit for clarity: I am on stamplar, not mag. Even at 6800 WD it's tough getting kills. Survivability is great though. I can face tank a squad of 10+ running Mara's on backbar.

TechMaybeHic

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Data has to be showing them something about Templar in Cyrodiil. People I know are instant pass on kill enemy templar quest because it takes forever. Granted; its because they still can heal and turtle, but also because there are not that many of them. You have to fight your way to the back of the zerg

Yes. I can attest on xbox NA that I am maybe one of 20 templars running on EP. Majority of player base is running Ice Warden, NB or DK. Every group has at least one Necro bomber running convergence.

Edit for clarity: I am on stamplar, not mag. Even at 6800 WD it's tough getting kills. Survivability is great though. I can face tank a squad of 10+ running Mara's on backbar.

That's pretty much it. DKs, NBs, Wardens (might be hype but the numbers are there) but I have even seen a return of sorcs with engine guardian. Thought that was dead but apparently are some out there. So Sorc, Necro, Templar have niches (kite, bomb, healer); the other 3 are fully loaded and can do multiple things. Kind of afraid of them just obliterating the rest here.

Jabbs_Giggity

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Data has to be showing them something about Templar in Cyrodiil. People I know are instant pass on kill enemy templar quest because it takes forever. Granted; its because they still can heal and turtle, but also because there are not that many of them. You have to fight your way to the back of the zerg

Yes. I can attest on xbox NA that I am maybe one of 20 templars running on EP. Majority of player base is running Ice Warden, NB or DK. Every group has at least one Necro bomber running convergence.

Edit for clarity: I am on stamplar, not mag. Even at 6800 WD it's tough getting kills. Survivability is great though. I can face tank a squad of 10+ running Mara's on backbar.

That's pretty much it. DKs, NBs, Wardens (might be hype but the numbers are there) but I have even seen a return of sorcs with engine guardian. Thought that was dead but apparently are some out there. So Sorc, Necro, Templar have niches (kite, bomb, healer); the other 3 are fully loaded and can do multiple things. Kind of afraid of them just obliterating the rest here.

In all honesty, I am running PA/Mara's/ballorgh on stamplar and there is really only two things that kill me in Cyro - server performance and bombers (VD procs and convergence). DKs are mostly annoying because you cannot kill them without 5-6 people. They just spam mist until ult is ready, ulti dump for decent damage then return to mist. Wardens are annoying if running Ice because of perma CC and root (same as DKs) and not ice wardens just have sick healing. NBs just don't wanna die anymore.

Templar is in a good spot defensively, but offense has been gutted so bad.

Fully buffed with continuous I am reaching over 7.2k WD and still have a hard time bringing down tankier players solo.

MEBengalsFan2001

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Data has to be showing them something about Templar in Cyrodiil. People I know are instant pass on kill enemy templar quest because it takes forever. Granted; its because they still can heal and turtle, but also because there are not that many of them. You have to fight your way to the back of the zerg

Yes. I can attest on xbox NA that I am maybe one of 20 templars running on EP. Majority of player base is running Ice Warden, NB or DK. Every group has at least one Necro bomber running convergence.

Edit for clarity: I am on stamplar, not mag. Even at 6800 WD it's tough getting kills. Survivability is great though. I can face tank a squad of 10+ running Mara's on backbar.

Templars are tanky but damage wise even with 8K spell damage I can't kill squat. Have you tried WW? I swapped to WW and my killing numbers went up big time.

Jabbs_Giggity

Urging all Templar players, PVP and PVE alike, and community members who play other classes to take a look at my thread and get a conversation going about state of Templar's lack of identity and luster for other players to try the class.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/622843/templar-identity/p1?new=1

The more we open this up, the more likely the Devs are going to see how badly they have gutted the class. I play other classes and would hate to see them gut these classes the way they have Templar.

Baconlad

Yeah I do agree the damage is meh. Getting them to execute range can be tough. I'm rocking 20k pen and 7-8 k spell damage and can't kill these tank idiots running around.

I saw last night a DK that had 30k health turn my dark flare into a 4k crit, my meteor into a 6k crit my javelin hit like a limp noodle. I got him to 20k health and couldn't believe it. The combo of flare LA flare LA meteor LA javelin hit perfect...20k health left over. He didn't even need to break free. Then he turned and WB leap whip and I was done.

There's something wonky with defense in this game currently. I know I'm build like paper but I'm facing a toon that is clearly built a ton of passive mitigation in and he has the damage to burst. The defense to offense built in isn't equal. There's no benefit to building any damage offense in my eyes

MEBengalsFan2001

Baconlad wrote: »

Yeah I do agree the damage is meh. Getting them to execute range can be tough. I'm rocking 20k pen and 7-8 k spell damage and can't kill these tank idiots running around.

I saw last night a DK that had 30k health turn my dark flare into a 4k crit, my meteor into a 6k crit my javelin hit like a limp noodle. I got him to 20k health and couldn't believe it. The combo of flare LA flare LA meteor LA javelin hit perfect...20k health left over. He didn't even need to break free. Then he turned and WB leap whip and I was done.

There's something wonky with defense in this game currently. I know I'm build like paper but I'm facing a toon that is clearly built a ton of passive mitigation in and he has the damage to burst. The defense to offense built in isn't equal. There's no benefit to building any damage offense in my eyes

Devs should revert templars back to what they were in mod 34. They would be competitive with Wardens, DK, and NB. Instead Templars are now just as bad as MagSorc.

What I'm trying to figure out is why I went from being somewhat tanky to being completely squishy even with high resistance and damage mitigation. No matter how I build my templar I die rather easily, even when blocking. Yet my warden survives better but I'm not using the full warden skill like for survival.

Speaking of Templar, the Javelin doesn't always break someone blocking. I was going 1v1 with a player and while they were blocking I hit them with Javelin and it didn't do anything, it was my first use of Javelin (any type of hard CC effect). This happened a few times against this player and I simply allowed the player kill me so I could respawn near my group.

Speaking of damage like what you mentioned. I had 8K spell damage, 18K pen and hit a NB with power of light, Ice Comet, Javelin, force pulse and radiant glory. They had 28K health and got down to 3K simply hit me 2x and killed me. 2 hits not even an ultimate and I died. I had over 30K health. Yeah that is balanced. Similar results with DK and Warden. They simply turn the tide rather easily due to how strong their damage is and how much survival tools they have. I miss the days of Templars having similar tools that have slowly been taken away from us.

What Templars don't have on their tool belt that other classes have is a skill that cleanse soft CC and provide immunity for a short time.

I even tried my magSorc and feel that class is currently better than Templar. It is a shame that Templar were equals to DK a year ago and now they are not even worth using other than as a fodder.

Syiccal

Remember when blazing spear cc'd everyone..deemed too op and got nerfed..

TechMaybeHic

Syiccal wrote: »

Remember when blazing spear cc'd everyone..deemed too op and got nerfed..

Yeah, its AOE would actually hit. Then they made just luminous shard morph do it.

Templar with aoe shards stun, good jabs, javelin, and old sun shield was an identity and they are all garbage except javelin is still useful but different

Syiccal

Templar aoe stun = op, Yet aoe stun on nb and warden and aoe immobilise on dk, wardens nd sorc is absolutely fine!

axi

Syiccal wrote: »

Templar aoe stun = op, Yet aoe stun on nb and warden and aoe immobilise on dk, wardens nd sorc is absolutely fine!

It wasn't op because it was an AoE but rather because it was delayed unavoidable stun. Delayed is important part here. You could plan Your combo little too well. Same reason why rune cage got nerfed later on.

Sergykid

was strong, it's understandable to tone down something strong but why then r we left with wardens or dks in current state. Not fair, templars r now like magsorcs but with defense to compensate for mobility

Cloudrest

I hit this last patch before they completely changed how PL and POTL works. Ability needed tuning down as it was honestly absurd, but the current iteration is awful and not worth slotting. I went from seeing 15-20k crits to rarely seeing 5k crits this patch. Ideally, PL/POTL should be critting for 10-12k fully stacked against a player with average resists and average crit resist. 8k against good builds.

It feels like battle spirit isn't properly applying to the ability, or maybe PL/POTL is double dipping into battle spirit currently. It's not hitting as much as it should be; it feels impossible to stack to full 200% copied damage. Get rid of the copied damage mechanic entirely, it's CLUNKY and has RARELY ever worked properly.

I'd personally prefer a PL/POTL that hits hard where you have to build 6 stacks based on burning light ticks on your enemy and then you can 'sanctify' your enemy for a good amount of burst damage that can be blocked but not dodge rolled (to keep in line with Templar's identity of going through dodge roll with jabs, burning light, beam etc etc), similar to Assassin's Will. It'd be more balanced and allows for counterplay, and likely less prone to glitching out. There'd also be a sound, similar to Assassin's Will, telling your opponent that you can sanctify them, allowing them to anticipate it.

Something like:

Purifying Light

Channel the might of the Aedra for 24 seconds, increasing your damage done by 1% every time burning light damages an enemy, adding a stack of sanctified. When you reach six stacks of sanctified, this ability converts into Aedric Judgement, allowing you to consume six stacks of sanctified to purify your target with holy fire for 4782 magic damage. Also heals you and nearby allies in the area for 599 Health every 2 seconds, over 10 seconds after six stacks of sanctified are consumed.

% Damage done modifier should help Templar's numbers in PvE and also give a small meaningful buff to jabs which are sorely needing some love too. Also forces the Templar to decide when to use Aedric Judgement, as they won't have the 6% extra damage done if they mistime their burst. Power of the Light would deal physical damage and still apply minor breach, as well.

Amerises

Cloudrest wrote: »

I hit this last patch before they completely changed how PL and POTL works. Ability needed tuning down as it was honestly absurd, but the current iteration is awful and not worth slotting. I went from seeing 15-20k crits to rarely seeing 5k crits this patch. Ideally, PL/POTL should be critting for 10-12k fully stacked against a player with average resists and average crit resist. 8k against good builds.

It feels like battle spirit isn't properly applying to the ability, or maybe PL/POTL is double dipping into battle spirit currently. It's not hitting as much as it should be; it feels impossible to stack to full 200% copied damage. Get rid of the copied damage mechanic entirely, it's CLUNKY and has RARELY ever worked properly.

I'd personally prefer a PL/POTL that hits hard where you have to build 6 stacks based on burning light ticks on your enemy and then you can 'sanctify' your enemy for a good amount of burst damage that can be blocked but not dodge rolled (to keep in line with Templar's identity of going through dodge roll with jabs, burning light, beam etc etc), similar to Assassin's Will. It'd be more balanced and allows for counterplay, and likely less prone to glitching out. There'd also be a sound, similar to Assassin's Will, telling your opponent that you can sanctify them, allowing them to anticipate it.

Something like:

Purifying Light

Channel the might of the Aedra for 24 seconds, increasing your damage done by 1% every time burning light damages an enemy, adding a stack of sanctified. When you reach six stacks of sanctified, this ability converts into Aedric Judgement, allowing you to consume six stacks of sanctified to purify your target with holy fire for 4782 magic damage. Also heals you and nearby allies in the area for 599 Health every 2 seconds, over 10 seconds after six stacks of sanctified are consumed.

% Damage done modifier should help Templar's numbers in PvE and also give a small meaningful buff to jabs which are sorely needing some love too. Also forces the Templar to decide when to use Aedric Judgement, as they won't have the 6% extra damage done if they mistime their burst. Power of the Light would deal physical damage and still apply minor breach, as well.

26k against a squishy target that sat still for 6 seconds was not the norm. When I would get PL/PotL put on me, I would play defensive, running through the target, using environment, blocking, running away, etc.

I’ve never understood why people in MMORPG’s are so against burst damage. It’s not just this game. I understand trying to open up accessibility, but other games I’ve played, you had to really earn your stripes, and then people would cry, and eventually PvP would would become easier for the new players and less rewarding for the vet’s, and the population would shrink. I haven’t logged in to my PvP main (Templar) since the first couple weeks of this patch, and started playing less since the jabs nerf… Jabs was powerful, yes. An AoE melee ability was tough, and there were many counters to the ability. Same as PL/PotL. I understood the Living Dark nerf, no argument there, but the last two patches really did kill it for me…

TechMaybeHic

If I understand @Cloudrest proposal on it, while yes; huge numbers like that did not happen often, but they were possible. It seems the idea would be to make it more controlled by action and counters and less volatile of a swing when fighting someone who doesn't know and just eats it to see that high damage

Cloudrest

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

If I understand @Cloudrest proposal on it, while yes; huge numbers like that did not happen often, but they were possible. It seems the idea would be to make it more controlled by action and counters and less volatile of a swing when fighting someone who doesn't know and just eats it to see that high damage

I was hitting 15k-20k crits last patch against average players. It wasn't uncommon. The 26k crit, as far as I know, is the hardest the ability has ever hit for me and I haven't seen anyone else post a PL crit that big. Again, that was last patch, though. This patch (Firesong) the ability has been useless.

The proposal is meant to bring the damage in line with other delayed burst abilities, and making it more consistent with the ability for an opponent to actually counterplay against it. The copied damage mechanic is super clunky and prone to glitching out and hasn't ever worked properly. In my mind, a Purifying Light that works off a stack-based mechanic like Assassin's Will would be ideal for Templar.