Templar underperforming

FirmamentOfStars

After a long time of magsorc underperforming in PvP, the class finally gets a buddy, which does not perform much better. The recent changes regarding the templars eventually brought the class inline with the performance of magicka sorcerers. Last patch, the class still was among the top classes for PvP, since they had very strong survivability with lot of skills passively healing them. Puncturing strikes, the heal from puryfying light, living dark and vigor gave the class strong healing to stay offensively and get off a high burst with the puryfying light up to 15-20k burst damage followed by a very strong finisher.

The defense of the templar class remains untouched, so the class still is very survivable, but their damage due to changes to jabs and now puryfying light/power of the light is now lacking a lot. Quite some players already tested the class in this new patch and can confirm, that templars offensive capabilites are underwhelming. The spammable jabs received a nerf last summer bringing its damage down to the level of other spammables like flurry and dizzying swing. Additionally the passive burning light, one big contributor to the damage of templars was adjusted aswell. The main offensive power of the combination of jabs and burning light was hit hard, so that many templars already adjusted their playstyles in summer to a ranged setup focussing on a meteor, backlash and javelin combo or they even went for dizzying swing. Still their power was strong due to the high delayed burst potential of backlash. But this skill was adjusted aswell with the latest patch notes, making the second strong hit much much weaker than before. In PvE this nerf of backlash is less impactful, since you still can fill up backlashs damage easely with high dps, but in PvP this skill hits for 4-5k after a well performed offensive combo attack. This delayed burst damage went down from 15-20k burst to whopping 4-5k damage, making the skill not worth it anymore in many scenarios.

I am not saying, that ZOS should just revert the changes to backlash to make templar strong again. But both nerfs to jabs and backlash together made the class hit very low numbers in PvP currently. In my opinion finding a middle way for backlash could be a solution. This skill functioning as delayed single target burst should deal similar numbers as blastbones or shalks, if the second hit deals a guaranteed and fix amount of damage. If the damage stays as a copy of dealt damage during the activation phase, the skill should have the potential to hit slightly harder than the previously named skills, since you have to work for it and should be rewarded as a result.

As said, I do not want to see the skills just reverted to previous states. The class was super strong in summer and performed as a top class till a few days ago. I see, that 15-20k backlashes were not balanced, this is why I suggested a middle ground. But in the current state, the class just does not function properly in PvP.

PS: Do not forget to buff magsorcs aswell.

TechMaybeHic

Torn between whether I really care about the gane any more to agree with what you say here, because it's true; or make a joke about 6k jab tics in PvP

The nerfs have gone too far as you say. Magsorc and now offensive Templar has been nearly eliminated. Necros holding on to their bomb niche (although I wonder how that's playing out with OO nerf). What's next?

Sergykid

templar is in a fine spot, speaking from an unbiased objective pov. Not strong but not weak. Other classes are overtuned in some areas, but templar seems balanced.

it only looks weaker because other classes are overtuned, not just directly the class but from other sources that affect those classes

Syiccal

Sergykid wrote: »

templar is in a fine spot, speaking from an unbiased objective pov. Not strong but not weak. Other classes are overtuned in some areas, but templar seems balanced.

it only looks weaker because other classes are overtuned, not just directly the class but from other sources that affect those classes

You need to give examples ro make a point like this

jecks33

jabs got too much nerfs in a row, it's a useless skill in pve and pvp now

neo7185

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

After a long time of magsorc underperforming in PvP, the class finally gets a buddy, which does not perform much better. The recent changes regarding the templars eventually brought the class inline with the performance of magicka sorcerers. Last patch, the class still was among the top classes for PvP, since they had very strong survivability with lot of skills passively healing them. Puncturing strikes, the heal from puryfying light, living dark and vigor gave the class strong healing to stay offensively and get off a high burst with the puryfying light up to 15-20k burst damage followed by a very strong finisher.

The defense of the templar class remains untouched, so the class still is very survivable, but their damage due to changes to jabs and now puryfying light/power of the light is now lacking a lot. Quite some players already tested the class in this new patch and can confirm, that templars offensive capabilites are underwhelming. The spammable jabs received a nerf last summer bringing its damage down to the level of other spammables like flurry and dizzying swing. Additionally the passive burning light, one big contributor to the damage of templars was adjusted aswell. The main offensive power of the combination of jabs and burning light was hit hard, so that many templars already adjusted their playstyles in summer to a ranged setup focussing on a meteor, backlash and javelin combo or they even went for dizzying swing. Still their power was strong due to the high delayed burst potential of backlash. But this skill was adjusted aswell with the latest patch notes, making the second strong hit much much weaker than before. In PvE this nerf of backlash is less impactful, since you still can fill up backlashs damage easely with high dps, but in PvP this skill hits for 4-5k after a well performed offensive combo attack. This delayed burst damage went down from 15-20k burst to whopping 4-5k damage, making the skill not worth it anymore in many scenarios.

I am not saying, that ZOS should just revert the changes to backlash to make templar strong again. But both nerfs to jabs and backlash together made the class hit very low numbers in PvP currently. In my opinion finding a middle way for backlash could be a solution. This skill functioning as delayed single target burst should deal similar numbers as blastbones or shalks, if the second hit deals a guaranteed and fix amount of damage. If the damage stays as a copy of dealt damage during the activation phase, the skill should have the potential to hit slightly harder than the previously named skills, since you have to work for it and should be rewarded as a result.

As said, I do not want to see the skills just reverted to previous states. The class was super strong in summer and performed as a top class till a few days ago. I see, that 15-20k backlashes were not balanced, this is why I suggested a middle ground. But in the current state, the class just does not function properly in PvP.

PS: Do not forget to buff magsorcs aswell.

Well said. Been a magplar main in PvP for a long time. Seen it's highs and lows, but this is rough. We run a 3 man group and i've turned him into more of a buff/support machine that then drops an ult and holds radiant because that's what I've got left that's good.

Sergykid

Syiccal wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

templar is in a fine spot, speaking from an unbiased objective pov. Not strong but not weak. Other classes are overtuned in some areas, but templar seems balanced.

it only looks weaker because other classes are overtuned, not just directly the class but from other sources that affect those classes

You need to give examples ro make a point like this

defenses are strong, high heal, cleanse, ccs. Class offensive spells are bad, but it makes up from utility. Ranged unlockable knockback javelin, or the other morph of living dark. Support it's good spot class.
If u want to play a solo brawler u can use non class spells effectively, even considering burning light proc, execute is wonderful as it's undodgeable and high range.
other classes are overtuned, sorc or nb have uncoubterable combat avoidance, dk and warden combine offense and defense too good, necro is in a weaker spot for now.

deleted221205-002626

Templar is fine... Everyone is running tanky builds and is difficult for anyone not running pure power dps

gariondavey

Double nerf to jabs
Double nerf to burning light
Nerf to backlash

It is borderline not worth it to run jabs/sweeps as a pvp spammable
Backlash does low damage. Even with 6.5k spell damage my tooltip is like 11-12k and that's IF I can pump in enough damage to make it get that max value.

No other classes delayed burst damage skill are tied to how much damage you deal. You just throw on curse/shalks/deep breath(it is not very good but is the dk delayed damage skill)/blastbones and it does damage. No need to stay on the offensive while waiting for it to go off. (Nbs just need to weave autos, which happens naturally).
Why can't backlash be like one of those. Like curse. Seriously.

Jabs/sweeps animation is awful. Jabs/sweeps used to overperform vs unskilled enemies in pvp (people with no major evasion, low movespeed, poor strafing) but didn't overperform vs people who know how to move and build a character. Now, jabs/sweeps does such blah damage you definitely aren't going to be killing anyone competent. And even more not with that weak backlash.

I removed backlash off my bar and now have space for beam on my stam(hybrid)plar. Nice to secure kills, I guess.

Bottom line:
Backlash isn't worth slotting and needs a rework or buff
Jabs/sweeps need the animation reverted and the damage buffed

MEBengalsFan2001

Sergykid wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

templar is in a fine spot, speaking from an unbiased objective pov. Not strong but not weak. Other classes are overtuned in some areas, but templar seems balanced.

it only looks weaker because other classes are overtuned, not just directly the class but from other sources that affect those classes

You need to give examples ro make a point like this

defenses are strong, high heal, cleanse, ccs. Class offensive spells are bad, but it makes up from utility. Ranged unlockable knockback javelin, or the other morph of living dark. Support it's good spot class.
If u want to play a solo brawler u can use non class spells effectively, even considering burning light proc, execute is wonderful as it's undodgeable and high range.
other classes are overtuned, sorc or nb have uncoubterable combat avoidance, dk and warden combine offense and defense too good, necro is in a weaker spot for now.

Templar was a top tier class but you had to get everything lined up to achieve the appropriate damage from power/purify light, burning light, jabs/puncture, and crescent sweep. If the opponentr had enough speed templar rotation became a liability to taking a target down.

Update 35 resulted in templar moving to Radiant Dest. as the primary ability which helped amp up the damage of purifying/power of light and now burning light didn't require jabs/puncture making it easier to kill targets with a single ability.

All of these changes are based on data they collected to adjust the game.

The new Templar is a stamden using artic blast, sorch, executioner or spin to win with the bear for a knockdown and added damage. In fact, IMO the stamden is more of a pain than a templar mainly because of artic blast being to strong in both healing and as a utility.

Amerises

gariondavey wrote: »

Double nerf to jabs
Double nerf to burning light
Nerf to backlash

It is borderline not worth it to run jabs/sweeps as a pvp spammable
Backlash does low damage. Even with 6.5k spell damage my tooltip is like 11-12k and that's IF I can pump in enough damage to make it get that max value.

No other classes delayed burst damage skill are tied to how much damage you deal. You just throw on curse/shalks/deep breath(it is not very good but is the dk delayed damage skill)/blastbones and it does damage. No need to stay on the offensive while waiting for it to go off. (Nbs just need to weave autos, which happens naturally).
Why can't backlash be like one of those. Like curse. Seriously.

Jabs/sweeps animation is awful. Jabs/sweeps used to overperform vs unskilled enemies in pvp (people with no major evasion, low movespeed, poor strafing) but didn't overperform vs people who know how to move and build a character. Now, jabs/sweeps does such blah damage you definitely aren't going to be killing anyone competent. And even more not with that weak backlash.

I removed backlash off my bar and now have space for beam on my stam(hybrid)plar. Nice to secure kills, I guess.

Bottom line:
Backlash isn't worth slotting and needs a rework or buff
Jabs/sweeps need the animation reverted and the damage buffed

Unfortunately a Templar without Backlash or jabs/sweeps just doesn’t feel like a Templar. Canceled my subscription. I use to main a Templar in both PvP and PvE, switched my PvE Templar to a healer only, and now just retired my PvP Templar. Maybe Templar is balanced now? Maybe. But with other classes are so over tuned, that it feels weak, even with a full damage build. To other person who said they have good utility and defense, sure, they can get pretty tanky, but if you can’t kill anything, so what?

ketsparrowhawk

I'd like to see some of the power budget removed from the Beam and given back to Backlash. There is plenty of room for the Beam to be toned down and that would make for a more well-rounded offensive kit.

Since we're on the topic here's my wishlist:

1. Put 4 seconds of snare immunity on Cleansing Ritual.
2. Put Major Evasion on Solar Barrage (it needs something now that Empower does not function in PvP). Alternatively, increase the damage!
3. Give Power of the Light Major Breach in addition to Minor Breach.

Nevidyra

Templar is absolutely not fine, lmao. Jabs got destroyed, as did burning light. The class relied heavily upon the delayed burst from Backlash/PL/POTL which could crit for around 15k. Much less than a Merciless Resolve proc from a Nightblade.

Now? 15k crit from POTL/PL is about 4k max for me, same exact build and everything. The ability isn't worth slotting, period. It's useless. The class is useless. New jabs feel awful. I"m playing a NB like everyone else is right now.

cuddles_with_wroble

Sergykid wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

templar is in a fine spot, speaking from an unbiased objective pov. Not strong but not weak. Other classes are overtuned in some areas, but templar seems balanced.

it only looks weaker because other classes are overtuned, not just directly the class but from other sources that affect those classes

You need to give examples ro make a point like this

defenses are strong, high heal, cleanse, ccs. Class offensive spells are bad, but it makes up from utility. Ranged unlockable knockback javelin, or the other morph of living dark. Support it's good spot class.
If u want to play a solo brawler u can use non class spells effectively, even considering burning light proc, execute is wonderful as it's undodgeable and high range.
other classes are overtuned, sorc or nb have uncoubterable combat avoidance, dk and warden combine offense and defense too good, necro is in a weaker spot for now.

My man’s you can’t say “class is ok Bcs has strong defense skills” haha. The class is GUTTED. Burning light does no damage anymore, backlash hits like a wet noodle, jabs is now just like the worst spammable in the game and the new animation is awful to top it off.

I’m sure most templars would agree, they would rather have slightly weaker self heals and actually be able to do damage.

Not to meantion Templar is without a doubt the worst pvp support class in the game so even if they have good heals no one is ever gonna play one over a warden or a nightblade unless they just want to Bcs they don’t wanna play the 3 better classes.

Alchimiste1

I want to start by saying that I've never been a big fan of templar. I thought that some of its kit was just filled with so much [snip] uncounterable mechanics. That being said what they've done to plar now is just massacre it.

Purifying Light/potl was such a strong skill not because it could hit for 15k but because

1) it was bugged and stored Damage from previous casts if you recast it before it ran out. This made it possible for people to basically stack it to its maximum potential with as little as 1 light attack + 1 set of jabs on the last cast.

2) Because the skill and the class itself leaves little room for counterplay. Can't roll doge a potential 15k purifying and if you try and block it zos in their infinite wisdom decided that templar should have a stun that is unblockable+ ignores resistances. When you combine the fact that their main spamable goes through roll + drains stam from people blocking a lot more than traditional spamables and pair that with a bugged purifying you make a class with ridiculous offensive pressure/burst.

Now what they could have done is first and foremost Fixed the bugged part of the skill. Next take away the unblockable stun from javelin.
From here you probably want to decrease the tooltip of purifying by about 10% and go through a pts and see what players think (I picked 10% as a baseline that could very well change.) and make further adjustments.
Alternatively, you can increase the base tooltip of the skill put lower the maximum damage. But for the love of the game use small % changes (please use a scalpel and not a hammer when implementation changes @ zos).

Lastly who the hell asked for a templar beam buff. It's ridiculous that you can have such a hard hitting and trackable execute that hit from range.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

Syiccal

I'm sure like myself most ppl on this forum are getting or are already sick of the fact that it's pointless being on this forum and discussing points only to not even be acknowledged by any of the dev team..the only time I see there comments is when they remove or move threads... Acknowledgment of problems, bugs or underperforming class's and or skills would go a long way with the community at this point.

cuddles_with_wroble

The game might actually be good if they listened to us

WaywardArgonian

I started playing Templar in April this year in order to try something new (after years of NB/Sorc PVP), and it was pretty amazing to see how the class went from overtuned to probably the weakest of the bunch over the course of 2 patches.

I understand that imbalances are inherent to MMO design, but I really wish the devs could finally find a point between OP and useless that leaves people who enjoy playing the designated nerfed class with a sense that they can still continue playing their class without feeling like they're severely crippling themselves. Sure I could switch to NB or Warden like everybody else, but I already played NB for 1.5 years and I currently have little interest in the Warden class.

gariondavey

@ZOS_Kevin
Some insightful comments in this thread, especially from dekrypted.
Templar is in desperate need of some love.

mmtaniac

I love templar ,hes simple but complicated i get it he's damage is strong against new players but against new players everything is strong.

Templar damage fall behind much i wear 4 damage sets and can't deal damage feel like noodles, i know people will tell templar is strong enough that you can play with 4 damage sets and not die. But no that's not how this work we just can't play without that because without them class feel terrible ,damage output is terrible low , jabs damage alone are mitigated by Major evasion( -25% of overall damage) + other mitigations.

Whole medium armor is created to reduce templar jabs damage roll dodge grant passive that reduce aoe damage by 2% per piece of medium armor + Major evasion voila - 35% of jabs damage. I ask why?

Power of the light compared to other classes similiar skills force use to charge it before to get atleast acceptable damage and still can be purged, other classes have this type of spammables on self cast(shalks,grim focus) ok sorc curse is on target too but sorc curse not force him to charge that ability to be usefull i was usefull always.

Still our passives we have 100% similiar passive like Dragon Knight named Mountain Blessing but templar was named Illumiate and Prism and was 1 effect in 2 passives. Perfect.

MEBengalsFan2001

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I'd like to see some of the power budget removed from the Beam and given back to Backlash. There is plenty of room for the Beam to be toned down and that would make for a more well-rounded offensive kit.

Since we're on the topic here's my wishlist:

1. Put 4 seconds of snare immunity on Cleansing Ritual.
2. Put Major Evasion on Solar Barrage (it needs something now that Empower does not function in PvP). Alternatively, increase the damage!
3. Give Power of the Light Major Breach in addition to Minor Breach.

I agree with power of light. What I dislike is how weak Power of Light / Purifying Light is now. It needs something to balance it out a bit more, such as major breach.

As for Cleansing Ritual - it should provide a heal with 10-15% less but the cleanse effect should last 4 seconds and it should provide Major Expedition when you are in the Cleansing Ritual AoE.

Templar set of class skills worked when the class was setup to do good damage at melee range. Now the class is blah and went from a melee multi target build to a single target range build that is blah and well boring.

I believe Puncture Sweep/Biting Jabs need a slight adjustment for damage. It's a bit on the low side for a melee ability compared to other abilities. Not a big buff but a slight buff.

TechMaybeHic

There's no burst for the class after burning light reduced damage and half as often proc at best, and PL/POTL now not copying as much damage, never reaching it's now lower tooltip in PvP.

Templar was too focused on Jabs so they made it now focus on Radiant Destruction from a zerg? Yeah...

Nevidyra

Templar has gone full circle, from being a healbot that spams beam from a zerg, to being a well-rounded class with multiple playstyles and power fantasies, and now we're back to being exclusively a healbot that spams beam from a zerg. Wow.

Buff jabs, buff BL, and change POTL/PL again so that Templar FINALLY has a delayed burst on par with blastbones/curse/whip that doesn't rely on an unreliable copied damage mechanic to reach its potential. Just make it a flat value, every 6s, and let us Templars get back to playing the damn game, please.

gariondavey

Nevidyra wrote: »

Templar has gone full circle, from being a healbot that spams beam from a zerg, to being a well-rounded class with multiple playstyles and power fantasies, and now we're back to being exclusively a healbot that spams beam from a zerg. Wow.

Buff jabs, buff BL, and change POTL/PL again so that Templar FINALLY has a delayed burst on par with blastbones/curse/whip that doesn't rely on an unreliable copied damage mechanic to reach its potential. Just make it a flat value, every 6s, and let us Templars get back to playing the damn game, please.

Exactly. The irony is templar is one of the worst pvp healers, competitively speaking.

@ZOS_Kevin please save us templars!

MEBengalsFan2001

gariondavey wrote: »

Nevidyra wrote: »

Templar has gone full circle, from being a healbot that spams beam from a zerg, to being a well-rounded class with multiple playstyles and power fantasies, and now we're back to being exclusively a healbot that spams beam from a zerg. Wow.

Buff jabs, buff BL, and change POTL/PL again so that Templar FINALLY has a delayed burst on par with blastbones/curse/whip that doesn't rely on an unreliable copied damage mechanic to reach its potential. Just make it a flat value, every 6s, and let us Templars get back to playing the damn game, please.

Exactly. The irony is templar is one of the worst pvp healers, competitively speaking.

@ZOS_Kevin please save us templars!

I don't play really as a healer on my templar. I play for debuffing and utility. In a group a Necro or Warden healers they synergize well off each other.

Templars are best a single target burst heals from breath of life.

gariondavey

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Nevidyra wrote: »

Templar has gone full circle, from being a healbot that spams beam from a zerg, to being a well-rounded class with multiple playstyles and power fantasies, and now we're back to being exclusively a healbot that spams beam from a zerg. Wow.

Buff jabs, buff BL, and change POTL/PL again so that Templar FINALLY has a delayed burst on par with blastbones/curse/whip that doesn't rely on an unreliable copied damage mechanic to reach its potential. Just make it a flat value, every 6s, and let us Templars get back to playing the damn game, please.

Exactly. The irony is templar is one of the worst pvp healers, competitively speaking.

@ZOS_Kevin please save us templars!

I don't play really as a healer on my templar. I play for debuffing and utility. In a group a Necro or Warden healers they synergize well off each other.

Templars are best a single target burst heals from breath of life.

Healthy offering heals just as much, resistant flesh the same + gives huge resists, matriarch heals 2 targets, polar wind heals for more

WrathOfInnos

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Not to meantion Templar is without a doubt the worst pvp support class in the game so even if they have good heals no one is ever gonna play one over a warden or a nightblade unless they just want to Bcs they don’t wanna play the 3 better classes.

Interestingly, the same is true for PVE support. That's why the trials meta has become Warden + Nightblade healers. They just have better unique buffs/debuffs and can do everything a templar support does, better.

Caribou77

The Templars I’m seeing in BGs are leaning heavily on radiant oppression and few are using backlash.

It seems like a much more limited, much less fun, playing style than Templar had in the past.

In fact, I think U35 had this effect on many classes. The options for viable competitive pvp play shrunk.

gariondavey

Eh I've always hated how backlash functions. Before the nerf, you needed to stay on the offense for the 6 seconds or it wouldn't hit hard.
Am I upset that backlash got nerfed? Yes
Do I wish they would just rework it to be 6 second version of curse? Yes
Am I content to use beam on my bar instead of it? Yes

Caribou77

yeh was more referring to Temps spamming RO where before it was more dynamic combos. POL never struck me as a great skill on its own, but the U35 Temp seems to have few viable damage options left other than RO.

no fun being the one trick pony

Syiccal

With it being so bad this update, what you using instead or still sticking with it for minor breach and sorcery?