Undeath passive.

Einstein_

olsborg wrote: »

Undeath passive = OP

Yes, its a very ez acces to get alot mitigation.
it needs to be nerfed or even deleted

DrSlaughtr

Bluestin wrote: »

Apologies, but I don't actually see how gaining major protection at 75% health prevents players from taking bonus damage from execute effects like Radiant Destruction or Reverse Slice. Making these effects uniform (Undeath, Ironblood) is in general a major reduction in mitigation as you won't be able to layer the same buff overtop of itself.

It might make it slightly more challenging to reach execute range, yet the 75% could just be shifted to "Gain major protection at 50% Health" Many builds don't actually use an execute to defeat enemy players in pvp.

Percentage based damage mitigation should be made uniform, Undeath doesn't need to be removed, just adjusted to fit with current percentage based mitigation standards. (Undeath changed to major protection giving 10% reduction to incoming damage, in whatever arbitrary health range is required to trigger it.)

Let me state it more clearly.

Undeath kicks in very low, giving the target time to heal. If the target has a less effective no burst heal, they will struggle to survive against constant pressure. This is because execute skills and bloody will put too much pressure on them to survive.

Giving a target more mitigation at the top of their health bar will help slow incoming damage, thus giving them more time before they enter execute. This allows HoTs to be more effective. You will also get more out of that 10% at 75% health than 30% at near death due to diminishing returns. This change would actually make undeath more valuable.

Bluestin

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Bluestin wrote: »

Apologies, but I don't actually see how gaining major protection at 75% health prevents players from taking bonus damage from execute effects like Radiant Destruction or Reverse Slice. Making these effects uniform (Undeath, Ironblood) is in general a major reduction in mitigation as you won't be able to layer the same buff overtop of itself.

It might make it slightly more challenging to reach execute range, yet the 75% could just be shifted to "Gain major protection at 50% Health" Many builds don't actually use an execute to defeat enemy players in pvp.

Percentage based damage mitigation should be made uniform, Undeath doesn't need to be removed, just adjusted to fit with current percentage based mitigation standards. (Undeath changed to major protection giving 10% reduction to incoming damage, in whatever arbitrary health range is required to trigger it.)

Let me state it more clearly.

Undeath kicks in very low, giving the target time to heal. If the target has a less effective no burst heal, they will struggle to survive against constant pressure. This is because execute skills and bloody will put too much pressure on them to survive.

Giving a target more mitigation at the top of their health bar will help slow incoming damage, thus giving them more time before they enter execute. This allows HoTs to be more effective. You will also get more out of that 10% at 75% health than 30% at near death due to diminishing returns. This change would actually make undeath more valuable.

Right, that is why I said the actual percentage at which Undeath activates would be up to whoever decides it, specifically the "in whatever arbitrary health range is required to trigger it" portion of the post.

The number I gave was arbitrary, the general idea behind the change I am asking for is that it is made into Major Protection, when it activates is not entirely the crux of my argument.

I do agree, Undeath activating too soon would make it potentially too powerful, Undeath has always been a relatively strong mitigation source and changing it to major protection would allow it to still be strong without being over-bearing if implemented correctly, part of that implementation would be finding exactly what the proper health threshold for gaining major protection would be.

Changing other sources of percentage based mitigation to be either major or minor protection would also help reduce the stacking of percentage based mitigation.

Sparxlost

I agree 30% is a lot when you think about what you could do with it....
i wouldnt care if they took 10% percent off at least..

Lailaamell

Like at this point vampire is mostly a cosmetic thing with cons added to it undeath isnt even strong its 30% yes but only if you have 1% hp or so wich means you will die either way if hit and 15% at 50% health is still basicly you will die to an execute anyway like vampire is already extremly lackluster in terms of usage i even see ww get more active use than vamp

VixxVexx

Yes, undeath is useless in a 1% health guaranteed death scenario, keen observation. Or is it?

The point of undeath is not to save you at 1%. It is to make it harder to get to that point and possibly save you when you're within execute/burst range. At this point you should and could do any of the following: roll/undo/streak/LOS/shield/cc or something crazy like casting a heal. There's quite a few heals and passives that reward you for healing at low health, wow!

Also, nerf undeath

DrSlaughtr

Half of these posts are talking about 30% being too high but don't seem to understand that it doesn't translate to 30%. If you're running major resolve with your base armor, blocking and Battle Spirit, you're already knee deep in diminishing returns. That 30% ends up being in the single digits. It's enough to buy you a global cooldown to heal, streak, invis, etc.

If you dropped it to 10%, you would get a fraction of that 10%. But because of diminishing returns, it might not even end up being that much less. In other words, return on investment will be much better on 10% then 30%.

This is very easy to test. Play an hour at stage 3, then play an hour at stage 2. Repeat.

You may notice a drop in survivability but it's not night and day. I deal with this all the time because console doesn't have vampire pin addons. You have to wait till the gravy train passes by a red tent or make a special trip to Bruma.

All undeath does is offer an extended amount of time to out heal damage or escape attackers.

I promise you, if/when these outrageous heals are brought in check, undeath will cease to be useful on builds, ESPECIALLY builds with already high mitigation. The enemy is getting a 20k+ heal with one skill.

Just getting rid of undeath will not fix the issues with survivability and high ttk. People will just stack major and minor protection on their bar which is active all the time. That 15% is more valuable

MEBengalsFan2001

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

Sounds like the worst thing to happen to PvP and that's saying something after this patch.

I don't see the drawback of having healing scale with max mag or stam (whichever is higher) vs weapon and spell damage. If you are a dedicated healer, you don't need 7000 damage. If you're a DK with 8k damage, you shouldn't also have the same healing output as a dedicate healer.

Alright I'll explain it once more.
The only reason that non dedicated players have sufficient crosshealing right now is due to radiating regen and other problematic skills like intensive mender.
It has nothing to do with them scaling with weapon/spelldamage + magicka/stamina (apart from the hybridization allowing everyone to spam radiating regen and other heals previously limited to one side only)

If you were to make heals to scale with max resources only it would have huge effects on the meta that would result in numerous new problems without solving anything.

First of all players would simply start investing into max resources causing them to lose damage while their healing power stays the same.
Healers would still be obsolete because nothing changes about the actual issuewith crossheals (radiating regen, intensive mender,...)

If you thought the current patch was a tankfest you'd be in for a big surprise.

On top of that there are multiple secondary effects that can't be estimated at all.

A radical change like this would require the devs team to invest heavily into reducing the negative effects as a blank change would be a horrible thing to do.
The devs frankly aren't capable of doing that in a balanced way, we've seen how terribly they handled the hybridization with ascending tides and there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't repeat the same mistakes again.

I would be competely okay with someone sacrificing damage output for stronger heals because that's exactly how it should work. I think you overestimate now quickly players would choose to abandon pen and damage for extra healing if forced to choose but we can't know that for certain.

I agree that healing should come from resources and not spell/weapon damage. If that change happens the devs also need to remove stamina and magika resources as a way to increase damage. These combined changes now force players to pick between healing or damage. I also keep seeing from others that think this change wouldn't solve anything but it would. It would encourage more group play with actual healers in PVP and PVE, because true healers will be having 40K+ magika.

The other thing that needs to change is abilities that provide a HoT, you can only have one of those applied to you, no more stacking rad. regen or other HoT heals.

Another thought on healing and damage is using the role you have selected regardless of content. Healers and Tanks should receive a penalty that reduces their damage by 5%, healers get 5% increase in their highest resource with 5% increase to healing out; and tanks get 10% more health. While damage dealers get no bonuses or negative effects.

VarisVaris

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

Sounds like the worst thing to happen to PvP and that's saying something after this patch.

I don't see the drawback of having healing scale with max mag or stam (whichever is higher) vs weapon and spell damage. If you are a dedicated healer, you don't need 7000 damage. If you're a DK with 8k damage, you shouldn't also have the same healing output as a dedicate healer.

Alright I'll explain it once more.
The only reason that non dedicated players have sufficient crosshealing right now is due to radiating regen and other problematic skills like intensive mender.
It has nothing to do with them scaling with weapon/spelldamage + magicka/stamina (apart from the hybridization allowing everyone to spam radiating regen and other heals previously limited to one side only)

If you were to make heals to scale with max resources only it would have huge effects on the meta that would result in numerous new problems without solving anything.

First of all players would simply start investing into max resources causing them to lose damage while their healing power stays the same.
Healers would still be obsolete because nothing changes about the actual issuewith crossheals (radiating regen, intensive mender,...)

If you thought the current patch was a tankfest you'd be in for a big surprise.

On top of that there are multiple secondary effects that can't be estimated at all.

A radical change like this would require the devs team to invest heavily into reducing the negative effects as a blank change would be a horrible thing to do.
The devs frankly aren't capable of doing that in a balanced way, we've seen how terribly they handled the hybridization with ascending tides and there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't repeat the same mistakes again.

I would be competely okay with someone sacrificing damage output for stronger heals because that's exactly how it should work. I think you overestimate now quickly players would choose to abandon pen and damage for extra healing if forced to choose but we can't know that for certain.

I agree that healing should come from resources and not spell/weapon damage. If that change happens the devs also need to remove stamina and magika resources as a way to increase damage. These combined changes now force players to pick between healing or damage. I also keep seeing from others that think this change wouldn't solve anything but it would. It would encourage more group play with actual healers in PVP and PVE, because true healers will be having 40K+ magika.

The other thing that needs to change is abilities that provide a HoT, you can only have one of those applied to you, no more stacking rad. regen or other HoT heals.

Another thought on healing and damage is using the role you have selected regardless of content. Healers and Tanks should receive a penalty that reduces their damage by 5%, healers get 5% increase in their highest resource with 5% increase to healing out; and tanks get 10% more health. While damage dealers get no bonuses or negative effects.

No, your idea is bad because this penalizes solo players for no reason at all while failing to touch the actual issues

DrSlaughtr

VarisVaris wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

Sounds like the worst thing to happen to PvP and that's saying something after this patch.

I don't see the drawback of having healing scale with max mag or stam (whichever is higher) vs weapon and spell damage. If you are a dedicated healer, you don't need 7000 damage. If you're a DK with 8k damage, you shouldn't also have the same healing output as a dedicate healer.

Alright I'll explain it once more.
The only reason that non dedicated players have sufficient crosshealing right now is due to radiating regen and other problematic skills like intensive mender.
It has nothing to do with them scaling with weapon/spelldamage + magicka/stamina (apart from the hybridization allowing everyone to spam radiating regen and other heals previously limited to one side only)

If you were to make heals to scale with max resources only it would have huge effects on the meta that would result in numerous new problems without solving anything.

First of all players would simply start investing into max resources causing them to lose damage while their healing power stays the same.
Healers would still be obsolete because nothing changes about the actual issuewith crossheals (radiating regen, intensive mender,...)

If you thought the current patch was a tankfest you'd be in for a big surprise.

On top of that there are multiple secondary effects that can't be estimated at all.

A radical change like this would require the devs team to invest heavily into reducing the negative effects as a blank change would be a horrible thing to do.
The devs frankly aren't capable of doing that in a balanced way, we've seen how terribly they handled the hybridization with ascending tides and there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't repeat the same mistakes again.

I would be competely okay with someone sacrificing damage output for stronger heals because that's exactly how it should work. I think you overestimate now quickly players would choose to abandon pen and damage for extra healing if forced to choose but we can't know that for certain.

I agree that healing should come from resources and not spell/weapon damage. If that change happens the devs also need to remove stamina and magika resources as a way to increase damage. These combined changes now force players to pick between healing or damage. I also keep seeing from others that think this change wouldn't solve anything but it would. It would encourage more group play with actual healers in PVP and PVE, because true healers will be having 40K+ magika.

The other thing that needs to change is abilities that provide a HoT, you can only have one of those applied to you, no more stacking rad. regen or other HoT heals.

Another thought on healing and damage is using the role you have selected regardless of content. Healers and Tanks should receive a penalty that reduces their damage by 5%, healers get 5% increase in their highest resource with 5% increase to healing out; and tanks get 10% more health. While damage dealers get no bonuses or negative effects.

No, your idea is bad because this penalizes solo players for no reason at all while failing to touch the actual issues

You can't balance the game for solo players without breaking it for group play. Solo players need to accept this. You 1v12'ing isn't how the game should function, because that leads to 12 trolls leading 30 players around for 20 minutes.

No one said your heals would be taken away, only that someone with 40k mag/stam would have a higher heal tool tip than if they had 30k mag/stam.

One of my NB build has a vigor tooltip of 26k over 4 seconds. That's before crit. It just shouldn't be that high for someone with 28k stamina just because I'm running one damage set.

My DK can heal from 1% to 100% with one hit of coagulating blood. It shouldn't be able to do that.

There have been many updates in this game where heals were not this outrageous and there were always solo players. 99% of the time you're fighting people without a dedicated healer anyway.

PhoenixGrey

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

Sounds like the worst thing to happen to PvP and that's saying something after this patch.

I don't see the drawback of having healing scale with max mag or stam (whichever is higher) vs weapon and spell damage. If you are a dedicated healer, you don't need 7000 damage. If you're a DK with 8k damage, you shouldn't also have the same healing output as a dedicate healer.

Alright I'll explain it once more.
The only reason that non dedicated players have sufficient crosshealing right now is due to radiating regen and other problematic skills like intensive mender.
It has nothing to do with them scaling with weapon/spelldamage + magicka/stamina (apart from the hybridization allowing everyone to spam radiating regen and other heals previously limited to one side only)

If you were to make heals to scale with max resources only it would have huge effects on the meta that would result in numerous new problems without solving anything.

First of all players would simply start investing into max resources causing them to lose damage while their healing power stays the same.
Healers would still be obsolete because nothing changes about the actual issuewith crossheals (radiating regen, intensive mender,...)

If you thought the current patch was a tankfest you'd be in for a big surprise.

On top of that there are multiple secondary effects that can't be estimated at all.

A radical change like this would require the devs team to invest heavily into reducing the negative effects as a blank change would be a horrible thing to do.
The devs frankly aren't capable of doing that in a balanced way, we've seen how terribly they handled the hybridization with ascending tides and there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't repeat the same mistakes again.

I would be competely okay with someone sacrificing damage output for stronger heals because that's exactly how it should work. I think you overestimate now quickly players would choose to abandon pen and damage for extra healing if forced to choose but we can't know that for certain.

I agree that healing should come from resources and not spell/weapon damage. If that change happens the devs also need to remove stamina and magika resources as a way to increase damage. These combined changes now force players to pick between healing or damage. I also keep seeing from others that think this change wouldn't solve anything but it would. It would encourage more group play with actual healers in PVP and PVE, because true healers will be having 40K+ magika.

The other thing that needs to change is abilities that provide a HoT, you can only have one of those applied to you, no more stacking rad. regen or other HoT heals.

Another thought on healing and damage is using the role you have selected regardless of content. Healers and Tanks should receive a penalty that reduces their damage by 5%, healers get 5% increase in their highest resource with 5% increase to healing out; and tanks get 10% more health. While damage dealers get no bonuses or negative effects.

No, your idea is bad because this penalizes solo players for no reason at all while failing to touch the actual issues

You can't balance the game for solo players without breaking it for group play. Solo players need to accept this. You 1v12'ing isn't how the game should function, because that leads to 12 trolls leading 30 players around for 20 minutes.

No one said your heals would be taken away, only that someone with 40k mag/stam would have a higher heal tool tip than if they had 30k mag/stam.

One of my NB build has a vigor tooltip of 26k over 4 seconds. That's before crit. It just shouldn't be that high for someone with 28k stamina just because I'm running one damage set.

My DK can heal from 1% to 100% with one hit of coagulating blood. It shouldn't be able to do that.

There have been many updates in this game where heals were not this outrageous and there were always solo players. 99% of the time you're fighting people without a dedicated healer anyway.

Lol, you can tweak battlespirit to balance game for solo players and small scale without breaking it for zergs.

It's literally that simple

Urzigurumash

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

Sounds like the worst thing to happen to PvP and that's saying something after this patch.

I don't see the drawback of having healing scale with max mag or stam (whichever is higher) vs weapon and spell damage. If you are a dedicated healer, you don't need 7000 damage. If you're a DK with 8k damage, you shouldn't also have the same healing output as a dedicate healer.

Alright I'll explain it once more.
The only reason that non dedicated players have sufficient crosshealing right now is due to radiating regen and other problematic skills like intensive mender.
It has nothing to do with them scaling with weapon/spelldamage + magicka/stamina (apart from the hybridization allowing everyone to spam radiating regen and other heals previously limited to one side only)

If you were to make heals to scale with max resources only it would have huge effects on the meta that would result in numerous new problems without solving anything.

First of all players would simply start investing into max resources causing them to lose damage while their healing power stays the same.
Healers would still be obsolete because nothing changes about the actual issuewith crossheals (radiating regen, intensive mender,...)

If you thought the current patch was a tankfest you'd be in for a big surprise.

On top of that there are multiple secondary effects that can't be estimated at all.

A radical change like this would require the devs team to invest heavily into reducing the negative effects as a blank change would be a horrible thing to do.
The devs frankly aren't capable of doing that in a balanced way, we've seen how terribly they handled the hybridization with ascending tides and there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't repeat the same mistakes again.

I would be competely okay with someone sacrificing damage output for stronger heals because that's exactly how it should work. I think you overestimate now quickly players would choose to abandon pen and damage for extra healing if forced to choose but we can't know that for certain.

I agree that healing should come from resources and not spell/weapon damage. If that change happens the devs also need to remove stamina and magika resources as a way to increase damage. These combined changes now force players to pick between healing or damage. I also keep seeing from others that think this change wouldn't solve anything but it would. It would encourage more group play with actual healers in PVP and PVE, because true healers will be having 40K+ magika.

The other thing that needs to change is abilities that provide a HoT, you can only have one of those applied to you, no more stacking rad. regen or other HoT heals.

Another thought on healing and damage is using the role you have selected regardless of content. Healers and Tanks should receive a penalty that reduces their damage by 5%, healers get 5% increase in their highest resource with 5% increase to healing out; and tanks get 10% more health. While damage dealers get no bonuses or negative effects.

No, your idea is bad because this penalizes solo players for no reason at all while failing to touch the actual issues

You can't balance the game for solo players without breaking it for group play. Solo players need to accept this. You 1v12'ing isn't how the game should function, because that leads to 12 trolls leading 30 players around for 20 minutes.

No one said your heals would be taken away, only that someone with 40k mag/stam would have a higher heal tool tip than if they had 30k mag/stam.

One of my NB build has a vigor tooltip of 26k over 4 seconds. That's before crit. It just shouldn't be that high for someone with 28k stamina just because I'm running one damage set.

My DK can heal from 1% to 100% with one hit of coagulating blood. It shouldn't be able to do that.

There have been many updates in this game where heals were not this outrageous and there were always solo players. 99% of the time you're fighting people without a dedicated healer anyway.

Lol, you can tweak battlespirit to balance game for solo players and small scale without breaking it for zergs.

It's literally that simple

I definitely agree that would be ideal - I'm on console - were some of those various AoE / Healing test things on PC effectuated through Battlespirit?

DrSlaughtr

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

Sounds like the worst thing to happen to PvP and that's saying something after this patch.

I don't see the drawback of having healing scale with max mag or stam (whichever is higher) vs weapon and spell damage. If you are a dedicated healer, you don't need 7000 damage. If you're a DK with 8k damage, you shouldn't also have the same healing output as a dedicate healer.

Alright I'll explain it once more.
The only reason that non dedicated players have sufficient crosshealing right now is due to radiating regen and other problematic skills like intensive mender.
It has nothing to do with them scaling with weapon/spelldamage + magicka/stamina (apart from the hybridization allowing everyone to spam radiating regen and other heals previously limited to one side only)

If you were to make heals to scale with max resources only it would have huge effects on the meta that would result in numerous new problems without solving anything.

First of all players would simply start investing into max resources causing them to lose damage while their healing power stays the same.
Healers would still be obsolete because nothing changes about the actual issuewith crossheals (radiating regen, intensive mender,...)

If you thought the current patch was a tankfest you'd be in for a big surprise.

On top of that there are multiple secondary effects that can't be estimated at all.

A radical change like this would require the devs team to invest heavily into reducing the negative effects as a blank change would be a horrible thing to do.
The devs frankly aren't capable of doing that in a balanced way, we've seen how terribly they handled the hybridization with ascending tides and there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't repeat the same mistakes again.

I would be competely okay with someone sacrificing damage output for stronger heals because that's exactly how it should work. I think you overestimate now quickly players would choose to abandon pen and damage for extra healing if forced to choose but we can't know that for certain.

I agree that healing should come from resources and not spell/weapon damage. If that change happens the devs also need to remove stamina and magika resources as a way to increase damage. These combined changes now force players to pick between healing or damage. I also keep seeing from others that think this change wouldn't solve anything but it would. It would encourage more group play with actual healers in PVP and PVE, because true healers will be having 40K+ magika.

The other thing that needs to change is abilities that provide a HoT, you can only have one of those applied to you, no more stacking rad. regen or other HoT heals.

Another thought on healing and damage is using the role you have selected regardless of content. Healers and Tanks should receive a penalty that reduces their damage by 5%, healers get 5% increase in their highest resource with 5% increase to healing out; and tanks get 10% more health. While damage dealers get no bonuses or negative effects.

No, your idea is bad because this penalizes solo players for no reason at all while failing to touch the actual issues

You can't balance the game for solo players without breaking it for group play. Solo players need to accept this. You 1v12'ing isn't how the game should function, because that leads to 12 trolls leading 30 players around for 20 minutes.

No one said your heals would be taken away, only that someone with 40k mag/stam would have a higher heal tool tip than if they had 30k mag/stam.

One of my NB build has a vigor tooltip of 26k over 4 seconds. That's before crit. It just shouldn't be that high for someone with 28k stamina just because I'm running one damage set.

My DK can heal from 1% to 100% with one hit of coagulating blood. It shouldn't be able to do that.

There have been many updates in this game where heals were not this outrageous and there were always solo players. 99% of the time you're fighting people without a dedicated healer anyway.

Lol, you can tweak battlespirit to balance game for solo players and small scale without breaking it for zergs.

It's literally that simple

Please offer an example of how you can do this because all I'm picturing is group players will be punished while solo builds will continue to run around like near immortals.

PhoenixGrey

TheEndBringer wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

Sounds like the worst thing to happen to PvP and that's saying something after this patch.

I don't see the drawback of having healing scale with max mag or stam (whichever is higher) vs weapon and spell damage. If you are a dedicated healer, you don't need 7000 damage. If you're a DK with 8k damage, you shouldn't also have the same healing output as a dedicate healer.

Alright I'll explain it once more.
The only reason that non dedicated players have sufficient crosshealing right now is due to radiating regen and other problematic skills like intensive mender.
It has nothing to do with them scaling with weapon/spelldamage + magicka/stamina (apart from the hybridization allowing everyone to spam radiating regen and other heals previously limited to one side only)

If you were to make heals to scale with max resources only it would have huge effects on the meta that would result in numerous new problems without solving anything.

First of all players would simply start investing into max resources causing them to lose damage while their healing power stays the same.
Healers would still be obsolete because nothing changes about the actual issuewith crossheals (radiating regen, intensive mender,...)

If you thought the current patch was a tankfest you'd be in for a big surprise.

On top of that there are multiple secondary effects that can't be estimated at all.

A radical change like this would require the devs team to invest heavily into reducing the negative effects as a blank change would be a horrible thing to do.
The devs frankly aren't capable of doing that in a balanced way, we've seen how terribly they handled the hybridization with ascending tides and there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't repeat the same mistakes again.

I would be competely okay with someone sacrificing damage output for stronger heals because that's exactly how it should work. I think you overestimate now quickly players would choose to abandon pen and damage for extra healing if forced to choose but we can't know that for certain.

I agree that healing should come from resources and not spell/weapon damage. If that change happens the devs also need to remove stamina and magika resources as a way to increase damage. These combined changes now force players to pick between healing or damage. I also keep seeing from others that think this change wouldn't solve anything but it would. It would encourage more group play with actual healers in PVP and PVE, because true healers will be having 40K+ magika.

The other thing that needs to change is abilities that provide a HoT, you can only have one of those applied to you, no more stacking rad. regen or other HoT heals.

Another thought on healing and damage is using the role you have selected regardless of content. Healers and Tanks should receive a penalty that reduces their damage by 5%, healers get 5% increase in their highest resource with 5% increase to healing out; and tanks get 10% more health. While damage dealers get no bonuses or negative effects.

No, your idea is bad because this penalizes solo players for no reason at all while failing to touch the actual issues

You can't balance the game for solo players without breaking it for group play. Solo players need to accept this. You 1v12'ing isn't how the game should function, because that leads to 12 trolls leading 30 players around for 20 minutes.

No one said your heals would be taken away, only that someone with 40k mag/stam would have a higher heal tool tip than if they had 30k mag/stam.

One of my NB build has a vigor tooltip of 26k over 4 seconds. That's before crit. It just shouldn't be that high for someone with 28k stamina just because I'm running one damage set.

My DK can heal from 1% to 100% with one hit of coagulating blood. It shouldn't be able to do that.

There have been many updates in this game where heals were not this outrageous and there were always solo players. 99% of the time you're fighting people without a dedicated healer anyway.

Lol, you can tweak battlespirit to balance game for solo players and small scale without breaking it for zergs.

It's literally that simple

Please offer an example of how you can do this because all I'm picturing is group players will be punished while solo builds will continue to run around like near immortals.

Group players should obviously be punished atleast from cross healing perspective. Its pretty overtuned right now. Ultimate generation also should be dynamic in terms of damage taken.

BTW less than 5% of the open world players are purely of the solo. I m not worried about the 5% minority players running immortal OP builds.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

Looking at some of the ridiculous nerf comments in this thread leads me to believe that many players don't understand the multiplicative diminishing returns on damage mitigation. Nor are they acknowledging the penalties of Vampire Stage 3.

Urzigurumash

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Looking at some of the ridiculous nerf comments in this thread leads me to believe that many players don't understand the multiplicative diminishing returns on damage mitigation. Nor are they acknowledging the penalties of Vampire Stage 3.

So it's the strongest non-set defensive buff in the game then no?

Well, the second strongest - one thing we absolutely do not want to do by adjusting healing or Undeath is to compel everyone to double bar Flare. Many competitive builds are running this on one bar, but it's far from mandatory.

If the penalties are sufficient to balance Undeath, simply switch its stage requirement with Unnatural Movement. (Although personally I run Stage 4 on all toons all the time anyhow, I'm not really sure how popular it is)

Another probably unpopular opinion is that everyone is running Undeath because Damage is so high that it diminishes the requirements for sustain, right? Back in 2019 during the Balorgh+NMA meta when damage was much lower sustain demands were more severe, recall many thought Bone Pirate was the best set to pair with these - although I think that was before Serpent and Atro were buffed. It was also before the scaling was changed for Undeath, I think.

With damage as it is, all the penalties for Vampirism do right now is to enforce Flame Damage and Dawnbreaker as BIS.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

Here's the best summary I can provide.

Undeath

• works best on low armor players at low health
• extremely weak above ~80% health and completely useless at 100% health
• does not prevent wild swings in your health
• starts to become useful around 50-60% health by helping players stay above that 20-33% execute range
• requires Vampire Stage 3 which makes players take 10k+ molten whip crits @ 100% health

DrSlaughtr

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

Sounds like the worst thing to happen to PvP and that's saying something after this patch.

I don't see the drawback of having healing scale with max mag or stam (whichever is higher) vs weapon and spell damage. If you are a dedicated healer, you don't need 7000 damage. If you're a DK with 8k damage, you shouldn't also have the same healing output as a dedicate healer.

Alright I'll explain it once more.
The only reason that non dedicated players have sufficient crosshealing right now is due to radiating regen and other problematic skills like intensive mender.
It has nothing to do with them scaling with weapon/spelldamage + magicka/stamina (apart from the hybridization allowing everyone to spam radiating regen and other heals previously limited to one side only)

If you were to make heals to scale with max resources only it would have huge effects on the meta that would result in numerous new problems without solving anything.

First of all players would simply start investing into max resources causing them to lose damage while their healing power stays the same.
Healers would still be obsolete because nothing changes about the actual issuewith crossheals (radiating regen, intensive mender,...)

If you thought the current patch was a tankfest you'd be in for a big surprise.

On top of that there are multiple secondary effects that can't be estimated at all.

A radical change like this would require the devs team to invest heavily into reducing the negative effects as a blank change would be a horrible thing to do.
The devs frankly aren't capable of doing that in a balanced way, we've seen how terribly they handled the hybridization with ascending tides and there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't repeat the same mistakes again.

I would be competely okay with someone sacrificing damage output for stronger heals because that's exactly how it should work. I think you overestimate now quickly players would choose to abandon pen and damage for extra healing if forced to choose but we can't know that for certain.

I agree that healing should come from resources and not spell/weapon damage. If that change happens the devs also need to remove stamina and magika resources as a way to increase damage. These combined changes now force players to pick between healing or damage. I also keep seeing from others that think this change wouldn't solve anything but it would. It would encourage more group play with actual healers in PVP and PVE, because true healers will be having 40K+ magika.

The other thing that needs to change is abilities that provide a HoT, you can only have one of those applied to you, no more stacking rad. regen or other HoT heals.

Another thought on healing and damage is using the role you have selected regardless of content. Healers and Tanks should receive a penalty that reduces their damage by 5%, healers get 5% increase in their highest resource with 5% increase to healing out; and tanks get 10% more health. While damage dealers get no bonuses or negative effects.

No, your idea is bad because this penalizes solo players for no reason at all while failing to touch the actual issues

You can't balance the game for solo players without breaking it for group play. Solo players need to accept this. You 1v12'ing isn't how the game should function, because that leads to 12 trolls leading 30 players around for 20 minutes.

No one said your heals would be taken away, only that someone with 40k mag/stam would have a higher heal tool tip than if they had 30k mag/stam.

One of my NB build has a vigor tooltip of 26k over 4 seconds. That's before crit. It just shouldn't be that high for someone with 28k stamina just because I'm running one damage set.

My DK can heal from 1% to 100% with one hit of coagulating blood. It shouldn't be able to do that.

There have been many updates in this game where heals were not this outrageous and there were always solo players. 99% of the time you're fighting people without a dedicated healer anyway.

Lol, you can tweak battlespirit to balance game for solo players and small scale without breaking it for zergs.

It's literally that simple

Please offer an example of how you can do this because all I'm picturing is group players will be punished while solo builds will continue to run around like near immortals.

Group players should obviously be punished atleast from cross healing perspective. Its pretty overtuned right now. Ultimate generation also should be dynamic in terms of damage taken.

BTW less than 5% of the open world players are purely of the solo. I m not worried about the 5% minority players running immortal OP builds.

Cross healing will happen with or without groups. In fact one of the biggest complainers when we didn't have cross healing was solo players.

What you're suggesting is make people in groups weaker while solo players continue to build for 1vXing groups.

Urzigurumash

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

[*] starts to become useful around 50-60% health by helping players stay above that 20-33% execute range
[*] requires Vampire Stage 3 which makes players take 10k+ molten whip crits @ 100% health
[/list]

Yes, these are the two main issues which drive complaints about Undeath.

Can anybody compute - who takes more damage from a 10k Tooltip Molten Whip at 5% Health - a Mortal or a Stage 3 Vamp? Say at 25k resists, 25k HP, no Protection / Potatoes / Swift etc, with the caster having 0 Pen.

Rough napkin math seems to indicate the Mortal would take slightly more damage?

Seems like a bit of an issue for PvP balance, and why I say if nothing else, remove the damage taken penalties for Vampire.

But I could be wrong.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Can anybody compute - who takes more damage from a 10k Tooltip Molten Whip at 5% Health - a Mortal or a Stage 3 Vamp? Say at 25k resists, 25k HP, no Protection / Potatoes / Swift etc, with the caster having 0 Pen.

Rough napkin math seems to indicate the Mortal would take slightly more damage?

Mortal: 10000 * (1-((25000/660)/100)) = 6212 damage taken
Vampire Stage 3, Undeath: 10000 * (1-((25000/660)/100)) * 1.13 * (0.7*1.05) = 5159 damage taken

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I promise you, if/when these outrageous heals are brought in check, undeath will cease to be useful on builds, ESPECIALLY builds with already high mitigation. The enemy is getting a 20k+ heal with one skill.

Just getting rid of undeath will not fix the issues with survivability and high ttk. People will just stack major and minor protection on their bar which is active all the time. That 15% is more valuable

To go on - these are obviously very valid points, and tie in with what SkaraMinoc is talking about:

If Healing were further reduced in Battlespirit, or strong Heals were individually nerfed, the sustain demands of Healing would be increased for many specs, a similar effect perhaps to moving Undeath to Stage 4 in terms of the sustain costs of Vampirism. Much has been said about how the halving of HP Regen engendered a broad adaptation towards Stage 3, which while true, is only one reason for the shift - another big one was the permanent end of 7 Heavy Stam via the revision of Armor passives. For years many Stam played in 7 Heavy (Fury+7th for instance), and feel free to debate me on this, but on such a build it wasn't only Heavy's percentile buff to HP Regen which kept some from Vampirism, but also because Heavy had no percentile buff to Stam/Mag Regen, and investment into integer sources of Stam/Mag Regen did not provide the same return that investment into integer sources of Weapon Damage did (or HP Regen, i.e. Trollking) when a player in 7 Heavy could comfortably sustain from Constitution and Revitalize alone, even after the Morrowind nerf to Constitution (recall the Warrior was much more popular than the Serpent in these times) - and so not much as benefit was gained from the old Vampire sustain passive.

I.e., the original intent of Undeath was to provide tankiness to low mitigation specs, who also were able to stack percentile buffs to Stam/Mag Regen in a way that 7 Heavy players could not.

While it's still true that Undeath is relatively more powerful on low mitigation specs - it doesn't change the fact that it's still a nearly irreplaceable passive for high mitigation specs. It is much, much easier to throw on the Serpent / Atro sign than it is to find room for Major Protection.

None of this is to suggest that I think things should be reverted regarding HP Regen or Armor passives - but rather, truly by far the most ideal situation is to not adjust Vampire whatsoever, but to introduce a new sublcass, like Draugr, or Mummy, which is tailored more to high mitigation Brawler specs, so that Vampire can be further tailored to solo Gank specs. The big penalty for this Draugr subclass would be movement speed, and maybe Healing Taken, since they're just animated dust.

Sounds good right?

Urzigurumash

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Can anybody compute - who takes more damage from a 10k Tooltip Molten Whip at 5% Health - a Mortal or a Stage 3 Vamp? Say at 25k resists, 25k HP, no Protection / Potatoes / Swift etc, with the caster having 0 Pen.

Rough napkin math seems to indicate the Mortal would take slightly more damage?

Mortal: 10000 * (1-((25000/660)/100)) = 6212 damage taken
Vampire Stage 3, Undeath: 10000 * (1-((25000/660)/100)) * 1.13 * (0.7*1.05) = 5159 damage taken

Awesome, thank you. I confess I build off intuition more than actual math. Anyhow we can see how this is a big problem for class / elemental balance. In execute, which is all that matters most of the time, Fire does more damage to Vampires than any other type of damage - but it does even more to a mortal.

So while we await our Draugr subclass, remove the Flame Damage taken from Vampire so that MagDK can be properly balanced as it has so long deserved.

Lailaamell

Like they could just remove undeath add a new penalty for vampire or change undeath to have heal per hit but you can no longer be healed by other or restoration dmg vampires due to undead nature

ExistingRug61

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Can anybody compute - who takes more damage from a 10k Tooltip Molten Whip at 5% Health - a Mortal or a Stage 3 Vamp? Say at 25k resists, 25k HP, no Protection / Potatoes / Swift etc, with the caster having 0 Pen.

Rough napkin math seems to indicate the Mortal would take slightly more damage?

Mortal: 10000 * (1-((25000/660)/100)) = 6212 damage taken
Vampire Stage 3, Undeath: 10000 * (1-((25000/660)/100)) * 1.13 * (0.7*1.05) = 5159 damage taken

Actually for the vampire it’s

10000 * (1 - ((25000/660)/100)) * 1.13 * (0.7 + (0.3 * 0.05)) = 5019 [edit correct typo from 5109]

For reference, the point at which a stage 3 vamp with undeath takes equal damage from fire as a mortal is at approx 61% health.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Can anybody compute - who takes more damage from a 10k Tooltip Molten Whip at 5% Health - a Mortal or a Stage 3 Vamp? Say at 25k resists, 25k HP, no Protection / Potatoes / Swift etc, with the caster having 0 Pen.

Rough napkin math seems to indicate the Mortal would take slightly more damage?

Mortal: 10000 * (1-((25000/660)/100)) = 6212 damage taken
Vampire Stage 3, Undeath: 10000 * (1-((25000/660)/100)) * 1.13 * (0.7*1.05) = 5159 damage taken

Actually for the vampire it’s

10000 * (1 - ((25000/660)/100)) * 1.13 * (0.7 + (0.3 * 0.05)) = 5109

For reference, the point at which a stage 3 vamp with undeath takes equal damage from fire as a mortal is at approx 61% health.

Whoops good catch. You are correct but it's 5019 not 5109. (typo?)

This also works: 10000 * (1 - ((25000/660)/100)) * 1.13 * (1 - (0.3 * 0.95))

ExistingRug61

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Can anybody compute - who takes more damage from a 10k Tooltip Molten Whip at 5% Health - a Mortal or a Stage 3 Vamp? Say at 25k resists, 25k HP, no Protection / Potatoes / Swift etc, with the caster having 0 Pen.

Rough napkin math seems to indicate the Mortal would take slightly more damage?

Mortal: 10000 * (1-((25000/660)/100)) = 6212 damage taken
Vampire Stage 3, Undeath: 10000 * (1-((25000/660)/100)) * 1.13 * (0.7*1.05) = 5159 damage taken

Actually for the vampire it’s

10000 * (1 - ((25000/660)/100)) * 1.13 * (0.7 + (0.3 * 0.05)) = 5109

For reference, the point at which a stage 3 vamp with undeath takes equal damage from fire as a mortal is at approx 61% health.

Whoops good catch. You are correct but it's 5019 not 5109. (typo?)

This also works: 10000 * (1 - ((25000/660)/100)) * 1.13 * (1 - (0.3 * 0.95))

Yeah that’s a typo.

SoulwayFilth

Hilarious request really. If undeath is only reason why people are vamp, why force them to slot skills? They just wouldn't use vampire.

Also pretty sure slot of skill requirement was dropped years ago.

In current meta, vamp definitely does have impactful downsides. All these DKs around do massive damage to vamps. If undeath needs to go, so does pariah or any other sets ramping mitigation based on missing health.

As others have said, reduction of health recovery made vampire plausible for just undeath passive. When you make a regen useless, when a condition also reduces same stat, there is not really much negative.

Instead fix the healing & health regen. Issue is more related to a dodge roll or block with a heal on some of the stronger classes just pops you back to full.

If you don't notice the downsides, you either dont play vamp or you do on a bloody dk, templar or necro who are already tanky.

Fix the power of healing & you won't completely bugger a skill line, which by the way is already signifcantly weak. I mean, toning down healing will alleviate a lot of concerns in pvp. Reduce healing & executes. If you have 20% health, strong heal should bring you up to say 50-60 for some interesting play but executes shouldn't kick in there either.

Some players also rely on such skills as they don't have access to some of the more powerful items available.

Edit*
Instead of going, people only use vamp for undeath, let's nerf that. How about making vamp skills do more?

Where is my instant gap closing blink that bites for 4k & heals for 2k scalling with weapon & spell damage & bleed. Or maybe even health?

Urzigurumash

SoulwayFilth wrote: »

In current meta, vamp definitely does have impactful downsides. All these DKs around do massive damage to vamps.

One way to reduce the amount of damage taken from DKs is to become a Vampire for Undeath.

SoulwayFilth

Urzigurumash wrote: »

SoulwayFilth wrote: »

In current meta, vamp definitely does have impactful downsides. All these DKs around do massive damage to vamps.

One way to reduce the amount of damage taken from DKs is to become a Vampire for Undeath.

Haha, no. Increase fire damage wrecks you. Especially with their whip that hits harder than their ult.

Urzigurumash

SoulwayFilth wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

SoulwayFilth wrote: »

In current meta, vamp definitely does have impactful downsides. All these DKs around do massive damage to vamps.

One way to reduce the amount of damage taken from DKs is to become a Vampire for Undeath.

Haha, no. Increase fire damage wrecks you. Especially with their whip that hits harder than their ult.

Review posts # 81, 83, 85, and 86 in this thread