Undeath passive.

DrSlaughtr

mmtaniac wrote: »

I know how bar works ,but if you use psijic ult for minor protection you wear it on both bars? Or maybe i missing some op tactic here.This is just proposition , this passive is too strong compared to other similiar. ZOS probably will change something different or don't even touch that. But something need to be changed i know people will like to leave everything as it is , but sometimes changes are needed for more healthy game. If this passive is not op then why almost every pvp players use it?!

I would say the major and minor protection you can get from psijic is better than undeath anyway because it's always fully active. Undeath doesn't fully kick in until you're nearly dead. The only thing that saves you at that point are heals. Like I said, the issue is healing. I kill plenty of vampires. The ones that are tough are templars, DKs and necros because they can get full health get easily.

And keep in mind, you aren't getting 30%. You're getting a fraction of that due to diminishing returns. Lower healing and undeath will lose it's luster.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The ones that are tough are templars, DKs and necros because they can get full health get easily.

Which, in my opinion, gets to the largest question about class balance that isn't much discussed here:

There is a Ratio of Healing-Damage in Battlespirit. Shouldn't we suppose, and doesn't history attest, that when this Ratio favors Damage over Healing, the DPS Classes (Sorc and NB) are stronger, and when it favors Healing over Damage, the Tank and Healer Classes (DK and Templar) are stronger?

Yes, all of these 4 base classes have Tank, Heal, and DPS skills, but their fundamental structure is built around one of these roles.

Adjustments to Battlespirit are always preferable to skill/passive adjustments, in my opinion.

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The ones that are tough are templars, DKs and necros because they can get full health get easily.

Which, in my opinion, gets to the largest question about class balance that isn't much discussed here:

There is a Ratio of Healing-Damage in Battlespirit. Shouldn't we suppose, and doesn't history attest, that when this Ratio favors Damage over Healing, the DPS Classes (Sorc and NB) are stronger, and when it favors Healing over Damage, the Tank and Healer Classes (DK and Templar) are stronger?

Yes, all of these 4 base classes have Tank, Heal, and DPS skills, but their fundamental structure is built around one of these roles.

Adjustments to Battlespirit are always preferable to skill/passive adjustments, in my opinion.

I completely agree it can be solved with BS. It was that way just last summer. The problem is healing scales to damage. So the more damage you can do, the bigger your ability to out heal incoming damage. BS can solve that.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The ones that are tough are templars, DKs and necros because they can get full health get easily.

Which, in my opinion, gets to the largest question about class balance that isn't much discussed here:

There is a Ratio of Healing-Damage in Battlespirit. Shouldn't we suppose, and doesn't history attest, that when this Ratio favors Damage over Healing, the DPS Classes (Sorc and NB) are stronger, and when it favors Healing over Damage, the Tank and Healer Classes (DK and Templar) are stronger?

Yes, all of these 4 base classes have Tank, Heal, and DPS skills, but their fundamental structure is built around one of these roles.

Adjustments to Battlespirit are always preferable to skill/passive adjustments, in my opinion.

I completely agree it can be solved with BS. It was that way just last summer. The problem is healing scales to damage. So the more damage you can do, the bigger your ability to out heal incoming damage. BS can solve that.

Which gets to the question - if you took DK as it is now and plopped it down in those first few weeks of No Proc GH (Xbox NA), when Solo MagSorcs and StamBlades were running the show, or in those last few weeks, when groups of all Wardens and Necros had taken over - would DK still be the least popular class by far, and widely regarded as the least effective?

I see it postulated here and there that lowering Healing in Battlespirit hurts specs with the weakest Healing the most. Sound logic strictly in terms of Healing, but those specs have (or should have) stronger Damage skills, so they could gain an edge in the overall equation of "outhealing damage / outdamaging heals", no?

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The ones that are tough are templars, DKs and necros because they can get full health get easily.

Which, in my opinion, gets to the largest question about class balance that isn't much discussed here:

There is a Ratio of Healing-Damage in Battlespirit. Shouldn't we suppose, and doesn't history attest, that when this Ratio favors Damage over Healing, the DPS Classes (Sorc and NB) are stronger, and when it favors Healing over Damage, the Tank and Healer Classes (DK and Templar) are stronger?

Yes, all of these 4 base classes have Tank, Heal, and DPS skills, but their fundamental structure is built around one of these roles.

Adjustments to Battlespirit are always preferable to skill/passive adjustments, in my opinion.

I completely agree it can be solved with BS. It was that way just last summer. The problem is healing scales to damage. So the more damage you can do, the bigger your ability to out heal incoming damage. BS can solve that.

Which gets to the question - if you took DK as it is now and plopped it down in those first few weeks of No Proc GH (Xbox NA), when Solo MagSorcs and StamBlades were running the show, or in those last few weeks, when groups of all Wardens and Necros had taken over - would DK still be the least popular class by far, and widely regarded as the least effective?

I see it postulated here and there that lowering Healing in Battlespirit hurts specs with the weakest Healing the most. Sound logic strictly in terms of Healing, but those specs have (or should have) stronger Damage skills, so they could gain an edge in the overall equation of "outhealing damage / outdamaging heals", no?

Personally I think healing should scale off max mag or stamina, not damage, but that's not going to happen.

They could put a cap on how much damage counts towards healing in pvp.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The ones that are tough are templars, DKs and necros because they can get full health get easily.

Which, in my opinion, gets to the largest question about class balance that isn't much discussed here:

There is a Ratio of Healing-Damage in Battlespirit. Shouldn't we suppose, and doesn't history attest, that when this Ratio favors Damage over Healing, the DPS Classes (Sorc and NB) are stronger, and when it favors Healing over Damage, the Tank and Healer Classes (DK and Templar) are stronger?

Yes, all of these 4 base classes have Tank, Heal, and DPS skills, but their fundamental structure is built around one of these roles.

Adjustments to Battlespirit are always preferable to skill/passive adjustments, in my opinion.

I completely agree it can be solved with BS. It was that way just last summer. The problem is healing scales to damage. So the more damage you can do, the bigger your ability to out heal incoming damage. BS can solve that.

Which gets to the question - if you took DK as it is now and plopped it down in those first few weeks of No Proc GH (Xbox NA), when Solo MagSorcs and StamBlades were running the show, or in those last few weeks, when groups of all Wardens and Necros had taken over - would DK still be the least popular class by far, and widely regarded as the least effective?

I see it postulated here and there that lowering Healing in Battlespirit hurts specs with the weakest Healing the most. Sound logic strictly in terms of Healing, but those specs have (or should have) stronger Damage skills, so they could gain an edge in the overall equation of "outhealing damage / outdamaging heals", no?

Personally I think healing should scale off max mag or stamina, not damage, but that's not going to happen.

They could put a cap on how much damage counts towards healing in pvp.

Thematically and logically concerning balance of game elements, I agree that a Healer should find more benefit from the Ritual sign than the Apprentice, etc., but I'm not sure I think those with access to a Healer should have even more of an advantage than they do now, which impelling any more sort of specialization for healing could do, as others have described in posts about divorcing healing from the damage stat. Some have suggested a blanket nerf to healing would increase this advantage as well - but again those speccing into damage more than healing may gain some relative edge. I.e., the ability of 4 DDs to beat a group of 3 DDs 1 Healer might not necessarily be diminished by a blanket nerf to healing.

But I could be wrong.

mmtaniac

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

DrSlaughtr

My gank blade vigor toolip is 26k over 4 seconds. That's just ridiculous.

Silversmith

Add a vampire passive ability that improves your damage on a target by up to 30% based on their missing health.

VarisVaris

mmtaniac wrote: »

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

Sounds like the worst thing to happen to PvP and that's saying something after this patch.

Vevvev

Silversmith wrote: »

Add a vampire passive ability that improves your damage on a target by up to 30% based on their missing health.

Nah man, vampires do it differently. We base it off our missing health

DrSlaughtr

VarisVaris wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

Sounds like the worst thing to happen to PvP and that's saying something after this patch.

I don't see the drawback of having healing scale with max mag or stam (whichever is higher) vs weapon and spell damage. If you are a dedicated healer, you don't need 7000 damage. If you're a DK with 8k damage, you shouldn't also have the same healing output as a dedicate healer.

VarisVaris

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

Sounds like the worst thing to happen to PvP and that's saying something after this patch.

I don't see the drawback of having healing scale with max mag or stam (whichever is higher) vs weapon and spell damage. If you are a dedicated healer, you don't need 7000 damage. If you're a DK with 8k damage, you shouldn't also have the same healing output as a dedicate healer.

Alright I'll explain it once more.
The only reason that non dedicated players have sufficient crosshealing right now is due to radiating regen and other problematic skills like intensive mender.
It has nothing to do with them scaling with weapon/spelldamage + magicka/stamina (apart from the hybridization allowing everyone to spam radiating regen and other heals previously limited to one side only)

If you were to make heals to scale with max resources only it would have huge effects on the meta that would result in numerous new problems without solving anything.

First of all players would simply start investing into max resources causing them to lose damage while their healing power stays the same.
Healers would still be obsolete because nothing changes about the actual issuewith crossheals (radiating regen, intensive mender,...)

If you thought the current patch was a tankfest you'd be in for a big surprise.

On top of that there are multiple secondary effects that can't be estimated at all.

A radical change like this would require the devs team to invest heavily into reducing the negative effects as a blank change would be a horrible thing to do.
The devs frankly aren't capable of doing that in a balanced way, we've seen how terribly they handled the hybridization with ascending tides and there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't repeat the same mistakes again.

WordsOfPower

My 2c:

The decision whether to take vampire in PvP is not solely due to Undeath. It depends on class and build.

Gank builds will obviously take it for increased WD from sneak and Fury.

Many melee builds will make excellent use of the spammable. My melee Magden (based on Nyce gaming) slaughters people in BGs with it.

There are even builds that use the Ultimate well, although they are a bit niche.

And many players can skilfully use Stage 4 invisibility.

I'm happy it's not all-in like WW.

And for those claiming you can't be competitive without Stage 3, I would suggest you take this up with Deltia, because several of his builds go without it and he's one of the most accomplished players out there.

VarisVaris

WordsOfPower wrote: »

My 2c:

The decision whether to take vampire in PvP is not solely due to Undeath. It depends on class and build.

Gank builds will obviously take it for increased WD from sneak and Fury.

Many melee builds will make excellent use of the spammable. My melee Magden (based on Nyce gaming) slaughters people in BGs with it.

There are even builds that use the Ultimate well, although they are a bit niche.

And many players can skilfully use Stage 4 invisibility.

I'm happy it's not all-in like WW.

And for those claiming you can't be competitive without Stage 3, I would suggest you take this up with Deltia, because several of his builds go without it and he's one of the most accomplished players out there.

Deltia is not a player to take competitive advice from.

There is not a single build out there where choosing to avoid vamp stage 3 isn't a huge detriment

WordsOfPower

VarisVaris wrote: »

Deltia is not a player to take competitive advice from.

There is not a single build out there where choosing to avoid vamp stage 3 isn't a huge detriment

Well that's your opinion but he has won dueling tournaments against real good players and I find most of his builds very solid

DrSlaughtr

VarisVaris wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Seperate healing from weapon and spell damage improve max health healing much, but at the same time healer role will be more required.

Sounds like the worst thing to happen to PvP and that's saying something after this patch.

I don't see the drawback of having healing scale with max mag or stam (whichever is higher) vs weapon and spell damage. If you are a dedicated healer, you don't need 7000 damage. If you're a DK with 8k damage, you shouldn't also have the same healing output as a dedicate healer.

Alright I'll explain it once more.
The only reason that non dedicated players have sufficient crosshealing right now is due to radiating regen and other problematic skills like intensive mender.
It has nothing to do with them scaling with weapon/spelldamage + magicka/stamina (apart from the hybridization allowing everyone to spam radiating regen and other heals previously limited to one side only)

If you were to make heals to scale with max resources only it would have huge effects on the meta that would result in numerous new problems without solving anything.

First of all players would simply start investing into max resources causing them to lose damage while their healing power stays the same.
Healers would still be obsolete because nothing changes about the actual issuewith crossheals (radiating regen, intensive mender,...)

If you thought the current patch was a tankfest you'd be in for a big surprise.

On top of that there are multiple secondary effects that can't be estimated at all.

A radical change like this would require the devs team to invest heavily into reducing the negative effects as a blank change would be a horrible thing to do.
The devs frankly aren't capable of doing that in a balanced way, we've seen how terribly they handled the hybridization with ascending tides and there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't repeat the same mistakes again.

I would be competely okay with someone sacrificing damage output for stronger heals because that's exactly how it should work. I think you overestimate now quickly players would choose to abandon pen and damage for extra healing if forced to choose but we can't know that for certain.

Vevvev

WordsOfPower wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Deltia is not a player to take competitive advice from.

There is not a single build out there where choosing to avoid vamp stage 3 isn't a huge detriment

Well that's your opinion but he has won dueling tournaments against real good players and I find most of his builds very solid

Especially since magDK is highly prominent in dueling environments (Even before the buff) I can see not going with stage 3 vampire.... or even vampire at all. Getting hit with a Molten Whip at 3 stacks with 2+ flame DoTs on you, and who knows what else hurts. If you know your only opponents are going to be DKs you definitely don't wanna be running vampire unless you really need Mistform or Swarming Scion.

WordsOfPower

Vevvev wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Deltia is not a player to take competitive advice from.

There is not a single build out there where choosing to avoid vamp stage 3 isn't a huge detriment

Well that's your opinion but he has won dueling tournaments against real good players and I find most of his builds very solid

Especially since magDK is highly prominent in dueling environments (Even before the buff) I can see not going with stage 3 vampire.... or even vampire at all. Getting hit with a Molten Whip at 3 stacks with 2+ flame DoTs on you, and who knows what else hurts. If you know your only opponents are going to be DKs you definitely don't wanna be running vampire unless you really need Mistform or Swarming Scion.

Yeah the last tournament I watched where he won in Deadlands patch he was running Magplar in 5 heavy with a good sustain set. He beat a pet sorc, magDK and Stamplar which were all good dueling builds and expert players.

Castian

mmtaniac wrote: »

Right now most people take vampire only for Undeath , if i think correctly this is not how this should work. Skill should be attractive too.

Simmering Frenzy used to be attractive until they nerfed it. The Vampire skill line is reverting to what it was before the nerf, something you have for the passive skills.

I'm a Tank and Undeath is a useful part of my build, I think there are plenty of drawbacks to being the stage to use it that it doesn't need a rework.

Morvan

Anyone who asks for Undeath nerf totally ignores the other weaknesses vampires have, you want to kill vampires? What about nerfing Dawnbreaker, then? Cause its already powerful by itself and specially on the vampires you guys say its "too op".

We have additional costs on our skills, weaknesses to fire damage, weaknesses to Fighters Guild skilline and barely any health regen, and you want to nerf the few things that compensates those weaknesses? They already took simmering from us, if you want to deal with Undeath users just use Dawnbreaker and they'll melt.

Hotdog_23

My 2 cents.

When major protection was changed from 30% to 10% the undead passive should have been also changed as well from 30% to 10%.

Stay safe and enjoy Springtime

RedFireDisco

VarisVaris wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

My 2c:

The decision whether to take vampire in PvP is not solely due to Undeath. It depends on class and build.

Gank builds will obviously take it for increased WD from sneak and Fury.

Many melee builds will make excellent use of the spammable. My melee Magden (based on Nyce gaming) slaughters people in BGs with it.

There are even builds that use the Ultimate well, although they are a bit niche.

And many players can skilfully use Stage 4 invisibility.

I'm happy it's not all-in like WW.

And for those claiming you can't be competitive without Stage 3, I would suggest you take this up with Deltia, because several of his builds go without it and he's one of the most accomplished players out there.

Deltia is not a player to take competitive advice from.

There is not a single build out there where choosing to avoid vamp stage 3 isn't a huge detriment

That's a fairly big statement and one I disagree with vehemently. I never run undeath on my vampires. The cost is not worth the defensive gain. There are MANY builds where the increased cost is not commensurate with the reward.

Let's drop the notion that it's a 30% buff because that's laughably somewhere between misleading and willfully dishonest as you get the 30% when you're at almost zero health and it's NOT going to save you from a light attack. It has little to no value at all when it procs. 15% at under 50% is decent if you're running a build that doesn't have a burst heal to keep you from going below the half health range but 15% ISN'T going to save you from an execute that does 300-400% more damage while you wait for your HoTs to help you.

A whopping 15% vs 400%.

Many builds would disengage before this point and that's when extra resources read: regen et al, come into play.

VixxVexx

Yes, you're never at 30% extra damage mitigation. However, if it just averages around half or even a third, it is still worth it.

If you struggle with sustaining the cost increase, a single cost reduction enchant will even it out. In this case you're just trading a single weapon damage enchant for ~15% damage mitigation. How is that not worth it? And don't tell me there's too much fire damage going around at the moment.

Nerf undeath

Vevvev

VixxVexx wrote: »

Yes, you're never at 30% extra damage mitigation. However, if it just averages around half or even a third, it is still worth it.

If you struggle with sustaining the cost increase, a single cost reduction enchant will even it out. In this case you're just trading a single weapon damage enchant for ~15% damage mitigation. How is that not worth it? And don't tell me there's too much fire damage going around at the moment.

Nerf undeath

Nah, buff Major and Minor Defile instead.

Also have to take into account deminishing returns and with the 10% damage reduction + 55% damage reduction of Battle Spirit on top of whatever CP you have + Resistances.... you'll never see anywhere close to the 15% on average of Undeath.

Edit: Also if you block or use Mistform you further reduce Undeath's power by a massive amount due to the extra mitigation being piled on top. In ESO diminishing returns hits hard with damage mitigation stacking.

DrSlaughtr

VixxVexx wrote: »

Yes, you're never at 30% extra damage mitigation. However, if it just averages around half or even a third, it is still worth it.

If you struggle with sustaining the cost increase, a single cost reduction enchant will even it out. In this case you're just trading a single weapon damage enchant for ~15% damage mitigation. How is that not worth it? And don't tell me there's too much fire damage going around at the moment.

Nerf undeath

Undeath is more valuable the lower armor you have. The characters with uber survivability are already towards of 30k armor with major resolve. What they get out of the passive is a fraction of 30%. They still run it because even 1% extra might give them a global cooldown to burst heal to 100%.

Undeath is used to give a players a chance to heal before death. Lower healing and undeath becomes worth less when compared to the costs.

Bluestin

I'm in agreement that Undeath needs a nerf, it performs closer to the original Major Protection effect (of course you won't reach the full 30% mitigation under most circumstances it is still quite a massive reduction to incoming damage that is affected less by penetration).

Healing is definitely an issue in this patch, though a lot of that seems to stem from the potency of Rapid Regeneration and restoration staff traits coupled with being able to stack multiple sources of the same regeneration effect.

The lack of uniformity of effects and being able to stack sources of the same enhancements is part of what makes many players capable of mitigating massive amounts of damage, such as being able to stack Undeath, with the Ironblood set from the Falkreath Hold Dungeon (10% chance to reduce damage taken by 30% for 10 seconds) when things like this should all be sourced as major protection and thus unable to be stacked.

The above isn't even considering what happens when you apply champion point damage reduction passives. Undeath could be changed to "Gain Major protection once your health reaches 75%".

DrSlaughtr

Bluestin wrote: »

I'm in agreement that Undeath needs a nerf, it performs closer to the original Major Protection effect (of course you won't reach the full 30% mitigation under most circumstances it is still quite a massive reduction to incoming damage that is affected less by penetration).

Healing is definitely an issue in this patch, though a lot of that seems to stem from the potency of Rapid Regeneration and restoration staff traits coupled with being able to stack multiple sources of the same regeneration effect.

The lack of uniformity of effects and being able to stack sources of the same enhancements is part of what makes many players capable of mitigating massive amounts of damage, such as being able to stack Undeath, with the Ironblood set from the Falkreath Hold Dungeon (10% chance to reduce damage taken by 30% for 10 seconds) when things like this should all be sourced as major protection and thus unable to be stacked.

The above isn't even considering what happens when you apply champion point damage reduction passives. Undeath could be changed to "Gain Major protection once your health reaches 75%".

Your suggestion would actually be more powerful as it keep the target from getting knocked down to execute.

Undeath has a big scary number. It only exists to let me heal from 10% to 100% with one skill on every class except NB and to a lesser extent warden. I can be red screen on my DK or templar and with one button go to 100%. Undeath gave be the chance to do that. If you get rid of undeath I'll just stack mitigation in another way and do the same.

Also, running undeath with iron with major resolve is a total waste. You have battle spirit, major resolve, iron, undeath and your base armor without even getting into other sources. You can't bury the needle in mitigation.

Bluestin

Apologies, but I don't actually see how gaining major protection at 75% health prevents players from taking bonus damage from execute effects like Radiant Destruction or Reverse Slice. Making these effects uniform (Undeath, Ironblood) is in general a major reduction in mitigation as you won't be able to layer the same buff overtop of itself.

It might make it slightly more challenging to reach execute range, yet the 75% could just be shifted to "Gain major protection at 50% Health" Many builds don't actually use an execute to defeat enemy players in pvp.

Percentage based damage mitigation should be made uniform, Undeath doesn't need to be removed, just adjusted to fit with current percentage based mitigation standards. (Undeath changed to major protection giving 10% reduction to incoming damage, in whatever arbitrary health range is required to trigger it.)

olsborg

Undeath passive = OP