Undeath passive.

mmtaniac

Add this passive to one of vampire abilities(you need to use this specific ability to have it) or add requirement to wear at least one vampire ability on bar. This way we limit this a little. Or just nerf it or rework it. Vampire tree is only attractive thanks to this passive and Mistform. Other skills almost not exist. Or remove health regen handicap on vampires and remove this thing. Vampire need changes.

Amottica

This is not needed.

For that passive to be active the character already has three strong penalties which is the cost of having that passive active. It also scales with how much remaining health the character has to a max of 30%. That 30% requires the health to be fairly low.

Seems fairly balanced.

MEBengalsFan2001

mmtaniac wrote: »

Add this passive to one of vampire abilities(you need to use this specific ability to have it) or add requirement to wear at least one vampire ability on bar. This way we limit this a little. Or just nerf it or rework it. Vampire tree is only attractive thanks to this passive and Mistform. Other skills almost not exist. Or remove health regen handicap on vampires and remove this thing. Vampire need changes.

Here is a thought, remove undead passive and lower mist form damage resistance down to 30% like undead passive. Now only way to get reduction in damage is in mist form.

If they do this they need to adjust the negative effects vampires get and that would be reduce the increase of skill cost and damage flame/fire attacks.

mmtaniac

Right now most people take vampire only for Undeath , if i think correctly this is not how this should work. Skill should be attractive too.

Amottica

mmtaniac wrote: »

Right now most people take vampire only for Undeath , if i think correctly this is not how this should work. Skill should be attractive too.

No. I already pointed out the costs involved to have that passive active and that the character needs to be near death for the full benefit. That is very sufficient. No change on this passive is needed. Certainly not requiring two skills being slotted which is exactly what is being suggested here.

Thecompton73

Basically you're asking them to completely rework vampires again. Good luck.

VarisVaris

Amottica wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Right now most people take vampire only for Undeath , if i think correctly this is not how this should work. Skill should be attractive too.

No. I already pointed out the costs involved to have that passive active and that the character needs to be near death for the full benefit. That is very sufficient. No change on this passive is needed. Certainly not requiring two skills being slotted which is exactly what is being suggested here.

No this is wrong.
The undeath passive is so powerful that anyone not using vamp stage 3 in PvP is at a huge disadvantage none of the drawbacks would make anyone consider giving up this passive because it is so overtuned.

DrSlaughtr

It's not as effective as it might seem due to diminishing returns. The builds you're probably most concerned about already have high mitigation, so they aren't getting anywhere near 30%. It's more effective on builds with less armor, which still means they die relatively easy if focused.

IMO the bigger issue is that you can stack so much mitigation without any damage penalty.

mmtaniac

If it is not effective , than why almost everyone use it? This is why i propose to add this passive as part of one of vampire ability. Similiar to few of Necromancer skills , they have some little passives on skills. In current form off course not nerfed.

Amottica

mmtaniac wrote: »

If it is not effective , than why almost everyone use it? This is why i propose to add this passive as part of one of vampire ability. Similiar to few of Necromancer skills , they have some little passives on skills. In current form off course not nerfed.

Everyone does not use it and the vampire skill line is used less now than it was before it was revamped. Further, requiring players to slot two skills to get the passives is way over the top. That is what the proposal is, requiring two skills to be slotted to get teh passive full time.

But then again, maybe you have a point. Slot the two skills, be in vampire 1 which has the least penalty, and have undeath full time. That may actually be a buff and get more players to use the skill line.

Humm. starting to sound better. The reality seems to be that few consider this passive to be an actual issue.

Vevvev

It's less the passive and more the intent of the build the people are going for. At 50% HP the passive is at 15% damage mitigation and everyone loves throwing around the 30% as if it's always that high.

The only reason Undeath is so widely used by PvPers looking to increase their survivability and effective health stems back to the nerf to health regeneration on Battle Spirit. The debuffs suffer diminishing returns just like damage mitigation stacking does, and when you add it up at stage 3 a vampire has -80% health regeneration with mortals having -50% health regeneration.

That is a 50% reduction in the stage 3 health regeneration debuff in PvP compared to PvE where you feel it's full effects compared to a mortal.

This is the crux of the problem where due to outside circumstances Undeath's value in combat has increased considerably. You change it at all and you destroy it's PvE uses as supporting the health using playstyle.

Unnerf health regeneration and you'll find stage 3+ vampire less desirable in the current meta.

VarisVaris

Vevvev wrote: »

It's less the passive and more the intent of the build the people are going for. At 50% HP the passive is at 15% damage mitigation and everyone loves throwing around the 30% as if it's always that high.

The only reason Undeath is so widely used by PvPers looking to increase their survivability and effective health stems back to the nerf to health regeneration on Battle Spirit. The debuffs suffer diminishing returns just like damage mitigation stacking does, and when you add it up at stage 3 a vampire has -80% health regeneration with mortals having -50% health regeneration.

That is a 50% reduction in the stage 3 health regeneration debuff in PvP compared to PvE where you feel it's full effects compared to a mortal.

This is the crux of the problem where due to outside circumstances Undeath's value in combat has increased considerably. You change it at all and you destroy it's PvE uses as supporting the health using playstyle.

Unnerf health regeneration and you'll find stage 3+ vampire less desirable in the current meta.

So your answer to an overperforming passive is making people more powerful when using it?

The game has changed a lot since the HP Regen nerf and many specs wouldn't think about going back to passively stacking HP Regen to the extent they did during Greymoor, Stonethorn or markarth, they'd rather keep their undeath passive and benefit from the 50% increase in HP regeneration if you were to revert the change.

The intention of vamp rework was to stop people from using vamp for the passives only, the result of the rework was that people still use vamp for the passives only (mainly for undeath) and maybe for eviscerate or mistform but that's dependent on the spec.

mmtaniac

Add requirements to those passives , the higher the tier of passive the more abilities you require to wear. On Undeath you need at least 3 ,ultimate does not count. But at the same time they should change or buff vampire abilities to be on par with class abilities.

Larcomar

People don't just use vampire for undeath and Mistform. They use it for dark stalker, strike from the shadows and sometimes unnatural movement. And ofc some of the abilities - the ulti is widely used on some classes, mesmerize sometimes pops up, and blood frenzy was popular though I'm not sure where it's at now.

All of which come with some pretty big negatives. Anyone who's just defaulting to vamp and thinking it's god mode because they saw some streamer use it is going to be sadly dissappointed. And probably have a nasty shock when they go into pvp.

Like other's have said, the one area that does feel off is the health regen. The nerf to that in pvp took one of the tradeoffs out, unbalancing the equation. but I'm not sure the solution is to nerf undeath; I'd much rather see them take a long look at health regen again. Not least because that change affect classes quite differently eg sorcs

mmtaniac

Ok if people use other abilities ,than i don't see problem with limit passive to abilities requirement. This way eliminate those players who use it only for passive. Probably 80% of Vampires are use it only for passive and mistform , sometimes for ult too.

DrSlaughtr

mmtaniac wrote: »

If it is not effective , than why almost everyone use it? This is why i propose to add this passive as part of one of vampire ability. Similiar to few of Necromancer skills , they have some little passives on skills. In current form off course not nerfed.

Because even if you only end up getting 3% to 5% mitigation from it due to diminishing returns, that can be the difference between life and death.

The best thing you can do against a stage 3 vampire is either have a huge burst that cuts through everything or stack dots that become overwhelming.

The ability cost is noticable, especially for non NBs. Is it crippling? No, but it does limit your onslaught and make you have to be more mindful of your resources usage.

Heals are the real problem with this game right now. Undeath may leave them with a sliver of health after a big attack, but that's not what is saving them. It's the ability to hit one or two healing skills and shoot to 100% in 2 seconds.

twing1_

The fix to the undeath passive isn't in nerfing the passive itself, but by boosting sources of health recovery across the board, thereby increasing the opportunity cost of using it.

Health recovery is a joke ever since they halved it with battlespirit, and it's the weakest stat an item set can provide a bonus to in both pve and pvp scenarios. It's also wildly inconsistent, as 2-4 pc item set bonuses value it as equivalent to Stam or mag recovery (all 3 grant 129 recovery), while other sources like food, base character stats, and 5 pc item sets value it at different values relative to its Stam and mag recovery counterparts.

Bumping up the sources of health recovery to 3x the value granted by Stam and mag recovery (387 for every 129 Stam/mag recovery) would do wonders to make it a more viable stat, while also indirectly nerfing the undeath passive, since it requires vamp level 3 that comes with a heavy debuff to health recovery.

On top of adjusting 2-4pc item set bonuses that grant health recovery to 387 (up from 129), base character health recovery should also be bumped up to 3x the value of base Stam/mag recovery, which would give characters access to 1542 health recovery out of the gates.

Urzigurumash

I think the most expedient yet cautious approach is to simply move Undeath to Stage 4.

Some in PvP find Stage 4 worth it, some do not. Maybe everybody would if Undeath were moved there, and if so the matter could be addressed again.

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I think the most expedient yet cautious approach is to simply move Undeath to Stage 4.

Some in PvP find Stage 4 worth it, some do not. Maybe everybody would if Undeath were moved there, and if so the matter could be addressed again.

Well, first there's already a stage 4 benefit, so you'd have to come up with something worth stage 3. If you move invisible sprint to stage 3, then you'd have access to it on both stage 3 and stage 4, which seems overkill.

Secondly, you'd just have people run stage 4 to get the same passive, which would negate what I assume is your desired outcome: reducing usage of this passive.

In reality, Undeath isn't the issue. The issue is healing and how easy it is to go from 2k health to 30k health with one or two skills over 2 seconds. Undeath isn't meant to give you a beat to brrrp to 100% in a heartbeat. It's there to help you survive. If the OP healing in PVP was addressed, this passive would lose some of its luster.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I think the most expedient yet cautious approach is to simply move Undeath to Stage 4.

Some in PvP find Stage 4 worth it, some do not. Maybe everybody would if Undeath were moved there, and if so the matter could be addressed again.

Well, first there's already a stage 4 benefit, so you'd have to come up with something worth stage 3. If you move invisible sprint to stage 3, then you'd have access to it on both stage 3 and stage 4, which seems overkill.

Secondly, you'd just have people run stage 4 to get the same passive, which would negate what I assume is your desired outcome: reducing usage of this passive.

In reality, Undeath isn't the issue. The issue is healing and how easy it is to go from 2k health to 30k health with one or two skills over 2 seconds. Undeath isn't meant to give you a beat to brrrp to 100% in a heartbeat. It's there to help you survive. If the OP healing in PVP was addressed, this passive would lose some of its luster.

You're definitely right about the way Healing combines with Undeath. It is fun to bounce back from almost 0 HP though.

You don't think the additional Stage 4 penalties would discourage a sizeable portion from running it? I'm not sure. Unnatural Movement + Strike from the Shadows is really fun for Solo OW / IC, ok in BGs, and useless in a Duel, but I guess there are some Solo OW / IC players that find Stage 4 isn't worth it?

Vevvev

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I think the most expedient yet cautious approach is to simply move Undeath to Stage 4.

Some in PvP find Stage 4 worth it, some do not. Maybe everybody would if Undeath were moved there, and if so the matter could be addressed again.

Well, first there's already a stage 4 benefit, so you'd have to come up with something worth stage 3. If you move invisible sprint to stage 3, then you'd have access to it on both stage 3 and stage 4, which seems overkill.

Secondly, you'd just have people run stage 4 to get the same passive, which would negate what I assume is your desired outcome: reducing usage of this passive.

In reality, Undeath isn't the issue. The issue is healing and how easy it is to go from 2k health to 30k health with one or two skills over 2 seconds. Undeath isn't meant to give you a beat to brrrp to 100% in a heartbeat. It's there to help you survive. If the OP healing in PVP was addressed, this passive would lose some of its luster.

You're definitely right about the way Healing combines with Undeath. It is fun to bounce back from almost 0 HP though.

You don't think the additional Stage 4 penalties would discourage a sizeable portion from running it? I'm not sure. Unnatural Movement + Strike from the Shadows is really fun for Solo OW / IC, ok in BGs, and useless in a Duel, but I guess there are some Solo OW / IC players that find Stage 4 isn't worth it?

Some people think the penalties of stage 4 are just not worth the passive. I personally think they are as it turns my magDK into a pseudo nightblade, and helps the stamina issue when chasing after people. The 0 HP recovery never bothered me since I never built into HP recovery anyway, but some people live and die by it.

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I think the most expedient yet cautious approach is to simply move Undeath to Stage 4.

Some in PvP find Stage 4 worth it, some do not. Maybe everybody would if Undeath were moved there, and if so the matter could be addressed again.

Well, first there's already a stage 4 benefit, so you'd have to come up with something worth stage 3. If you move invisible sprint to stage 3, then you'd have access to it on both stage 3 and stage 4, which seems overkill.

Secondly, you'd just have people run stage 4 to get the same passive, which would negate what I assume is your desired outcome: reducing usage of this passive.

In reality, Undeath isn't the issue. The issue is healing and how easy it is to go from 2k health to 30k health with one or two skills over 2 seconds. Undeath isn't meant to give you a beat to brrrp to 100% in a heartbeat. It's there to help you survive. If the OP healing in PVP was addressed, this passive would lose some of its luster.

You're definitely right about the way Healing combines with Undeath. It is fun to bounce back from almost 0 HP though.

You don't think the additional Stage 4 penalties would discourage a sizeable portion from running it? I'm not sure. Unnatural Movement + Strike from the Shadows is really fun for Solo OW / IC, ok in BGs, and useless in a Duel, but I guess there are some Solo OW / IC players that find Stage 4 isn't worth it?

People would go stage 4 for undeath. So when you get hit with a big burst you survive just enough to heal to 100%. But like I said, undeath isn't the issue. The healing is.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I think the most expedient yet cautious approach is to simply move Undeath to Stage 4.

Some in PvP find Stage 4 worth it, some do not. Maybe everybody would if Undeath were moved there, and if so the matter could be addressed again.

Well, first there's already a stage 4 benefit, so you'd have to come up with something worth stage 3. If you move invisible sprint to stage 3, then you'd have access to it on both stage 3 and stage 4, which seems overkill.

Secondly, you'd just have people run stage 4 to get the same passive, which would negate what I assume is your desired outcome: reducing usage of this passive.

In reality, Undeath isn't the issue. The issue is healing and how easy it is to go from 2k health to 30k health with one or two skills over 2 seconds. Undeath isn't meant to give you a beat to brrrp to 100% in a heartbeat. It's there to help you survive. If the OP healing in PVP was addressed, this passive would lose some of its luster.

You're definitely right about the way Healing combines with Undeath. It is fun to bounce back from almost 0 HP though.

You don't think the additional Stage 4 penalties would discourage a sizeable portion from running it? I'm not sure. Unnatural Movement + Strike from the Shadows is really fun for Solo OW / IC, ok in BGs, and useless in a Duel, but I guess there are some Solo OW / IC players that find Stage 4 isn't worth it?

People would go stage 4 for undeath. So when you get hit with a big burst you survive just enough to heal to 100%. But like I said, undeath isn't the issue. The healing is.

Probably you are right, but their heals would cost 4% more. Not a huge nerf, not a perfect solution at all - but again, an expedient and cautious adjustment with no ramifications whatsoever for people already running Stage 4.

Of course it would mean Flame Damage is even more relatively OP, but I think this penalty should be removed for now.

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I think the most expedient yet cautious approach is to simply move Undeath to Stage 4.

Some in PvP find Stage 4 worth it, some do not. Maybe everybody would if Undeath were moved there, and if so the matter could be addressed again.

Well, first there's already a stage 4 benefit, so you'd have to come up with something worth stage 3. If you move invisible sprint to stage 3, then you'd have access to it on both stage 3 and stage 4, which seems overkill.

Secondly, you'd just have people run stage 4 to get the same passive, which would negate what I assume is your desired outcome: reducing usage of this passive.

In reality, Undeath isn't the issue. The issue is healing and how easy it is to go from 2k health to 30k health with one or two skills over 2 seconds. Undeath isn't meant to give you a beat to brrrp to 100% in a heartbeat. It's there to help you survive. If the OP healing in PVP was addressed, this passive would lose some of its luster.

You're definitely right about the way Healing combines with Undeath. It is fun to bounce back from almost 0 HP though.

You don't think the additional Stage 4 penalties would discourage a sizeable portion from running it? I'm not sure. Unnatural Movement + Strike from the Shadows is really fun for Solo OW / IC, ok in BGs, and useless in a Duel, but I guess there are some Solo OW / IC players that find Stage 4 isn't worth it?

People would go stage 4 for undeath. So when you get hit with a big burst you survive just enough to heal to 100%. But like I said, undeath isn't the issue. The healing is.

Probably you are right, but their heals would cost 4% more. Not a huge nerf, not a perfect solution at all - but again, an expedient and cautious adjustment with no ramifications whatsoever for people already running Stage 4.

Of course it would mean Flame Damage is even more relatively OP, but I think this penalty should be removed for now.

Doesn't matter if it costs 4% more if you just have to hit one skill.

DrSlaughtr

Look at Coagulating Blood. It base costs 3780.

At stage 3 this increases to 4082.

At stage 4 this increases to 4233.

That's only 453 more mag cost than base. It's negligible. Plus you only need to hit it once on top of burning embers. Especially when you consider that these builds can push 2 to 3k recovery.

MEBengalsFan2001

Here is a thought to improve PVP for balancing the game out. The only skill lines that work in PVP content are Race, Class, Weapons, Armor, Support and Assault skill lines. All others are turned off in PVP.

mmtaniac

Vampire is ok for pvp but as i say in my posts before give some limits to this , force to use Vampire abilities. Vampires should use them not all but atleast 3 normal vampire abilities if they want to use Undeath something like that add requirements but at the same time buff those abilities to be on par with class. No one want to play with weak abilities. Vampire need changes to skills they need more Synergy in those skills(im not telling about synergy use from teamtmates)it's about how those skill work together. This should be complete new game style.

DrSlaughtr

mmtaniac wrote: »

Vampire is ok for pvp but as i say in my posts before give some limits to this , force to use Vampire abilities. Vampires should use them not all but atleast 3 normal vampire abilities if they want to use Undeath something like that add requirements but at the same time buff those abilities to be on par with class. No one want to play with weak abilities. Vampire need changes to skills they need more Synergy in those skills(im not telling about synergy use from teamtmates)it's about how those skill work together. This should be complete new game style.

Those suggestions are not something realistically possible. Why not just suggest making vampire like werewolf? I still think that's a bad idea but I'd see the logic in it.

People would use more of the actual skills if they were useful. Most aren't. That's not on the players. But I still see people using mist and burst every day.

Remember the old vampire line? That was a situation where everyone went vamp for just the recovery. That's not what we have here. People do use mist form and burst, and at least the passives come with a cost consistent with the benefit, for the most part.

Every complaint about undeath isn't an actual complaint about vampire. It's a complaint about healing. It wouldn't matter at all if a DK was vamp 3 if they couldn't heal to 100% with one skill.

Vevvev

mmtaniac wrote: »

Vampire is ok for pvp but as i say in my posts before give some limits to this , force to use Vampire abilities. Vampires should use them not all but atleast 3 normal vampire abilities if they want to use Undeath something like that add requirements but at the same time buff those abilities to be on par with class. No one want to play with weak abilities. Vampire need changes to skills they need more Synergy in those skills(im not telling about synergy use from teamtmates)it's about how those skill work together. This should be complete new game style.

Three abilities? Is that three abilities on the bar or three abilities in total across both bars? Reason I ask is because the game only takes into account the weapon/bar that's active and turns off the inactive one so if I had to put 3 vampire abilities on each bar that's insanely silly when you look at what each ability does.

On average the most "pure" vampire build going for a useable playstyle is only going to be running 1-2 abilities on a bar, and the super niche ones go up to three, and usually only on one bar and that being the back bar. For example my PvP build runs a single vampire ability on the offensive bar (2 in zerg v zerg fights and I'm feeling lucky), and 2 on my back bar unless I'm going an ultimate generation cheese strat then it goes up to 3. And I rarely use the third ability in an actual brawl as it's a liability when I'm getting hit. (Vampiric Drain if you haven't guessed)

mmtaniac

I know how bar works ,but if you use psijic ult for minor protection you wear it on both bars? Or maybe i missing some op tactic here.This is just proposition , this passive is too strong compared to other similiar. ZOS probably will change something different or don't even touch that. But something need to be changed i know people will like to leave everything as it is , but sometimes changes are needed for more healthy game. If this passive is not op then why almost every pvp players use it?!

Vevvev

mmtaniac wrote: »

I know how bar works ,but if you use psijic ult for minor protection you wear it on both bars? Or maybe i missing some op tactic here.This is just proposition , this passive is too strong compared to other similiar. ZOS probably will change something different or don't even touch that. But something need to be changed i know people will like to leave everything as it is , but sometimes changes are needed for more healthy game. If this passive is not op then why almost every pvp players use it?!

When I use the Psijic ultimate for the protection I put it on the bar I know I'm going to be block casting heals from. I never double bar ultimates, even on my Warden. (Yes I don't use the bear) It's just a good way to hamstring yourself and make you less adaptable.