If that's the philosophy, then it's flawed. Not everyone wants to raid, not everyone wants to run dungeons. It's a fundamentally different kind of experience that I would argue most fans of the Elder Scrolls series aren't looking for.
If that's the philosophy, then it's flawed. Not everyone wants to raid, not everyone wants to run dungeons. It's a fundamentally different kind of experience that I would argue most fans of the Elder Scrolls series aren't looking for.
For what it's worth, as one of those fans, I agree. I'm not sure it's specifically about the difficulty of the fights though. That is part of it, but there's also the element of suspense. My recollection of Oblivion and Skyrim is that there were actually enemies I would rather avoid (and the game could be completed without fighting them). That introduced an element of suspense. A feeling of carefully glancing around every corner before venturing into a new space. I don't think that exists anywhere in ESO (edit:except where there's PvP going on I suppose)
colossalvoids wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I get frustrated hearing how "mind-numbingly boring" the game that I love is. Overland is not boring. Some players may be bored with it, but overland itself is not boring. Many of us find it fun and engaging just as it is.
And I'm frustrated when people claim the game is fine for everyone, whilst a lot of players doesn't feel that way. For us it IS boring and it's not fun when you're in overland, so we want something to be done for our enjoyment also without taking anything significant away from ones who enjoy how things currently are.
You already have what you like, now others also want something for them, that's pretty simple.
SilverBride wrote: »colossalvoids wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I get frustrated hearing how "mind-numbingly boring" the game that I love is. Overland is not boring. Some players may be bored with it, but overland itself is not boring. Many of us find it fun and engaging just as it is.
And I'm frustrated when people claim the game is fine for everyone, whilst a lot of players doesn't feel that way. For us it IS boring and it's not fun when you're in overland, so we want something to be done for our enjoyment also without taking anything significant away from ones who enjoy how things currently are.
You already have what you like, now others also want something for them, that's pretty simple.
Overland is at a level where everyone can succeed at playing through the story. That doesn't mean everyone will enjoy it, just like not everyone enjoys PvP, or trials, or housing etc.. But it does need to stay at a level where all can succeed.
It is impossible to make a game where everyone will enjoy every aspect of it, but I think they do a good job of providing a wide range of content so there is something for everyone.
I do not want to see overland changed when overland isn't the problem. If some players are bored with it that doesn't mean it's flawed.
There are other options rather than changing something that for most is working fine. Such as challenge banners for bosses and debuffs etc.. I do support these because they can make overland more enjoyable for some players while not changing what is working for others.
colossalvoids wrote: »Overland is at a level where everyone can succeed at playing through the story, as you've said, but people are surely want to enjoy their experience and not being bored out of their mind with it.
colossalvoids wrote: »You're not willing to see any changes, but you're still fine with changes asked here...
colossalvoids wrote: »If the game stays the way it is now, it loses in a long term.
If that's the philosophy, then it's flawed. Not everyone wants to raid, not everyone wants to run dungeons. It's a fundamentally different kind of experience that I would argue most fans of the Elder Scrolls series aren't looking for.
For what it's worth, as one of those fans, I agree. I'm not sure it's specifically about the difficulty of the fights though. That is part of it, but there's also the element of suspense. My recollection of Oblivion and Skyrim is that there were actually enemies I would rather avoid (and the game could be completed without fighting them). That introduced an element of suspense. A feeling of carefully glancing around every corner before venturing into a new space. I don't think that exists anywhere in ESO (edit:except where there's PvP going on I suppose)
SilverBride wrote: »Being bored because some content isn't what a player prefers doesn't mean there is a problem with the content. We had veteran overland and it had to be changed because players just didn't want difficulty in the story.
SilverBride wrote: »Being bored because some content isn't what a player prefers doesn't mean there is a problem with the content. We had veteran overland and it had to be changed because players just didn't want difficulty in the story.
We did? Forgive me, I've only been playing for a couple of years. What exactly was this veteran overland you're referring to? Are you referring to Cadwell's? Or just the generally tougher enemies pre-One Tamriel?
First, for the old silver and gold zones, as long as you stayed 'on curve' with the enemies, as long as you got acclimated to the difficulty of the silver and gold zones, the difficulty remained pretty much the same. As an AD player my first silver zone was stonefalls, and I have good memories of the enemies there giving me trouble, but after that I was fine. Players like me who enjoy working out those difficulty related problems were fine with this kind of difficulty.
I only did silver and gold through once, because I'm not the kind of person who likes to repeat the same story content again and again. This is why I don't enjoy being told 'the gameplay you enjoy already exist, just go repeat the same thing for the millionth time' doesn't help. There are years worth of content I could enjoy, if not for the fact that every 'dramatic encounter' feels like a child's stage play, and I'm being forced to hold back, else end the whole thing early.
Craglorn was intentionally designed around being a 4 player party adventure zone, you weren't supposed to do it solo any more than you were supposed to do a dungeon solo. It didn't fail because it was too difficult, but because it was trying to make players engage in a primarily solo focused activity in a 4 player group.
So, overland is built to be accessible to everyone, so that a new player with their rusty sword and trousers can stop a world ending threat without feeling any hitches or roadblocks, to be as open to them as possible, and that is good. But the players who want to grow, want to try improving skills against improving challenges? Gotta go to group content with no real confidence in your skills first, or simply grind in one of the two solo arenas for that. There's the entire world of Tamriel that I and many others want to explore, but having it be mind-numbingly easy is to us as the higher difficulty of silver and gold zones was to you. The exact same.
But that doesn't really matter, ZOS will do whatever they decide upon. But you mention how your friends left after hitting the barrier of the old silver and gold zones, but don't you think that other people are running into the exact same thing, with friends leaving out of apathy, because for every year the centerpiece of content is mainly designed around a casual audience, so it becomes easier and easier to just leave?
How would an option given to those who aren't engaging with overland now, or those who barely if ever play the game, cause something like that to happen again? It's happening now, just with players you never see.
But you mention how your friends left after hitting the barrier of the old silver and gold zones, but don't you think that other people are running into the exact same thing, with friends leaving out of apathy, because for every year the centerpiece of content is mainly designed around a casual audience, so it becomes easier and easier to just leave?
SilverBride wrote: »I'm referring to Caldwell's Silver and Caldwell's Gold
SilverBride wrote: »I had no problem with the content of Caldwell's Silver and Gold. I love questing and I still do every quest in every zone on all of my characters. It was the difficulty that was the issue for me. Being stuck for days on one story boss wasn't my idea of a good time, or dying to trash mobs.
As has been pointed out also, players tend to do what is easiest. I doubt there would be many players that would choose more difficulty while questing because it would take longer.
I understand that your perspective is different from a lot of the people in this thread. Can you accept that the people here fundamentally disagree because we have a different perspective and want something else, and that's not necessarily a bad thing for you?
2) Update the graphics, at the very least the models.
3) Update animations & certain effects.
I think you have the wrong idea about what hard overland means, I am not (and I think most of us) suggesting that suddenly overland needs to turn into vet dungeon difficulty, but there should be some curve, sense of progression etc. it's tough to balance, that's why they are too afraid to try. We should be offered a small challenge here and there, shouldn't be able to pull 20 mobs without dying, nor should we be able to kill the zone's last boss in 3 abilities. This is an mmorpg, people around will help, people can ask for help etc. At this point the majority of this game feels like Skyrim on easy mode with microtransactions. What's the point? Might as well remove every mob so that we can be spared the inconvenience of dismounting, game feels like a tedious movie running from X to Y. This is bad & lazy design and nothing anyone says can convince me otherwise. WoW had/has the same problem, but ESO is taking the power creep to the extreme level since One Tamriel got introduced, it has gone too far.spartaxoxo wrote: »ESO has a ton of people who only play the story. They literally leave the game and come back reliably every year. More difficult overland would discourage those players to come back, same with many casual players who skip this game's difficult content.
Forced difficulty cannot work and would kill this game.
Optional ideas like what CredibleJoe suggested or sliders, debuffs, challenge banners, etc is what is needed imo.
We should be offered a small challenge here and there, shouldn't be able to pull 20 mobs without dying, nor should we be able to kill the zone's last boss in 3 abilities.
Also, I refuse to believe that most players are so incompetent, they will adapt, they will learn, maybe for the first time even try to put together a half-decent build, that will better prepare them for grouped content too.
Also, I refuse to believe that most players are so incompetent, they will adapt, they will learn, maybe for the first time even try to put together a half-decent build, that will better prepare them for grouped content too. Which reminds me, the game does a super poor job at 'teaching' people how to play.
I think you have the wrong idea about what hard overland means, I am not (and I think most of us) suggesting that suddenly overland needs to turn into vet dungeon difficulty, but there should be some curve, sense of progression etc. it's tough to balance, that's why they are too afraid to try. We should be offered a small challenge here and there, shouldn't be able to pull 20 mobs without dying, nor should we be able to kill the zone's last boss in 3 abilities. This is an mmorpg, people around will help, people can ask for help etc. At this point the majority of this game feels like Skyrim on easy mode with microtransactions. What's the point? Might as well remove every mob so that we can be spared the inconvenience of dismounting, game feels like a tedious movie running from X to Y. This is bad & lazy design and nothing anyone says can convince me otherwise. WoW had/has the same problem, but ESO is taking the power creep to the extreme level since One Tamriel got introduced, it has gone too far.spartaxoxo wrote: »ESO has a ton of people who only play the story. They literally leave the game and come back reliably every year. More difficult overland would discourage those players to come back, same with many casual players who skip this game's difficult content.
Forced difficulty cannot work and would kill this game.
Optional ideas like what CredibleJoe suggested or sliders, debuffs, challenge banners, etc is what is needed imo.
Also, I refuse to believe that most players are so incompetent, they will adapt, they will learn, maybe for the first time even try to put together a half-decent build, that will better prepare them for grouped content too. Which reminds me, the game does a super poor job at 'teaching' people how to play.
spartaxoxo wrote: »Overland is the tutorial content. It's for new players and casual players. It shouldn't require builds and it should cater to power fantasies. Normal mode group content is what is supposed to prepare people for vet group content, not overland. Overland is for preparing people for normal mode and give them a story experience.
spartaxoxo wrote: »Overland is the tutorial content. It's for new players and casual players. It shouldn't require builds and it should cater to power fantasies. Normal mode group content is what is supposed to prepare people for vet group content, not overland. Overland is for preparing people for normal mode and give them a story experience.
I vehemently disagree with this line of thinking. Overland is the closest thing to the actual TES experience in ESO, and it's what I think most people expect to do when they start playing this game, especially if they've played another TES game. If overland is the tutorial, then ZOS is making a new, full-game-length tutorial every single year, and if that's what they intend to do then it's wrongheaded behavior.
It MAY be a tutorial-level experience right now, but it shouldn't have to be.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Overland is the tutorial content. It's for new players and casual players. It shouldn't require builds and it should cater to power fantasies. Normal mode group content is what is supposed to prepare people for vet group content, not overland. Overland is for preparing people for normal mode and give them a story experience.
I vehemently disagree with this line of thinking. Overland is the closest thing to the actual TES experience in ESO, and it's what I think most people expect to do when they start playing this game, especially if they've played another TES game. If overland is the tutorial, then ZOS is making a new, full-game-length tutorial every single year, and if that's what they intend to do then it's wrongheaded behavior.
It MAY be a tutorial-level experience right now, but it shouldn't have to be.
They have literally stated they want each chapter to be something a brand new player can jump into right away. Story content is designed for a new or casual experience. It's nothing wrong headed about that either. Every expansion needs something to attract new people and the main story is a natural point. Brand new players need something to jump into and it makes zero sense to toss them into group content first. Questing is the natural starting point of a MMO.
The wrong thing is them not giving us things like difficulty sliders so the content can remain engaging for vet players.