800k people don't seem to mind difficult overworld

Blood_again

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

No harm in pushing for something not really affecting other part of a playerbase or brainstorming how to make it possible so the feedback could be actually usable and maybe even considered for the future.

This would negatively affect all players, i.e. splitting the playerbase, too difficult for new players, unfair to those who aren't geared for veteran mobs, better drops for those who are, taking manpower and time away from issues that would benefit all players.

Pushing for this with multiple threads is harmful to the forums because the only thing it accomplishes is to cause conflict among the posters. This particular thread even introduced a link to a Twitch stream with an explanation by Rich Lambert yet many won't accept his answer.

I'm afraid that radical position against the changes is as harmful for the game as radical global changes in gameplay.
Me opposed against the idea "vet is good for all" before. I'm sure that every playstyle is equally valid.
This also means that wish for challenge is as valid as the other. It would be a mistake to invalidate it.
Declaring the theme of difficult overland as harmful in any implementation and even in forum discussion form is definitely far from truth.
I believe that solution is possible. Solution which wouldn't split the player base more than it already is. Solution that wasn't detailed by ZoS or underestimated by them. They are professionals, but not gods, you know
That's how I see a direction to act constructively. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

SilverBride

summ0004 wrote: »

I have just tried making a new char with no CPs and got to level 20 wearing grey and green items and still havent managed to die yet.

How would dying make your experience more enjoyable? Most players get frustrated by dying to what should be easy mobs when trying to complete a simple quest.

colossalvoids

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

No harm in pushing for something not really affecting other part of a playerbase or brainstorming how to make it possible so the feedback could be actually usable and maybe even considered for the future.

This would negatively affect all players, i.e. splitting the playerbase, too difficult for new players, unfair to those who aren't geared for veteran mobs, better drops for those who are, taking manpower and time away from issues that would benefit all players.

Pushing for this with multiple threads is harmful to the forums because the only thing it accomplishes is to cause conflict among the posters. This particular thread even introduced an explanation by Rich Lambert yet many won't accept his answer.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin May we please get an official answer to this?

Some things suggested would, some things won't and generalising isn't cutting there as there's an old standing demand and some sort of compromise can definitely be achieved to please everyone be it overland or not. Copy pasted replies aren't helping to get your point around more, it's just triggering some participants to argue with something that could be effectively ignored.

[snip] It's great some are starting to actually listen to Rich but we hit a wall here with peoples interpretation of his words to shut someone down. It's going in circles and pretty unproductive, all counterpoints were made and still the loop continues. It's absolutely useless activity as there's no unified position on what "vet overland" should be or possible middle grounds even, just some frustrated people against the ctrl+c/ctrl-v bunch, discussion ended long ago with you presenting one side and they presented their thoughts or ideas. Next time hopefully discussion won't be derailed this much and people would be able to actually talk to each other and have ideas coming instead of wasting everyone's time.

[edited for baiting]

spartaxoxo

I would like to point out that I am just an average player, and the hardest content I do is vet dungeons(non-DLC) and some normal trials, and even I find the overland stupidly easy to the point of frustation, so it must be even worse for high elite players

It's better for many of us who engage in actually difficult content, not worse. One reason I don't mind Overland being easy very much is It's a nice break from harder, more organized content. I don't gotta care about which set I have or focus on not getting one shot, I can just listen to some interesting dialogue and chill. When I get sick of hard content, vet content is there for me. And vice versa.

I think the majority of the people who complain about Vet Overland are the people who refuse to actually challenge themselves with the actually difficult content in this game in favor of playing tutorial content over and over, then complain about the game being too easy. If you've never done something like try to get a vet dlc dungeon skin, go for flawless conqueror, or killed a vet dlc trial boss ofc this game seems too easy. You're purposefully avoiding hard content.

There are definitely some people out there who only do vet content though. I sympathize with them. We need more arenas and such.

SilverBride

colossalvoids wrote: »

Next time hopefully discussion won't be derailed this much and people would be able to actually talk to each other and have ideas coming instead of wasting everyone's time.

Presenting a counter arguement to a proposed major change isn't derailing. Many of us believe this change would be harmful, and are speaking up against it.

temerley

If you check some streamers, some people are already complaining with the lack of incentive to do the Roaming bosses on deadlands PTS, some are even saying it’s very hard.

So yeah, lots of casuals in this game, it would be a waste of resources. Try and solo vet dlc hm if you want the challenge, maybe do solo trials or something like paddyvu.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Next time hopefully discussion won't be derailed this much and people would be able to actually talk to each other and have ideas coming instead of wasting everyone's time.

Presenting a counter arguement to a proposed major change isn't derailing. Many of us believe this change would be harmful, and are speaking up against it.

Also I presented counter ideas. And they weren't listened to at all, in favor of people treating me like I didn't understand their request. I understood perfectly. I not only disagree with it but don't find it remotely feasible.

They aren't gonna overhaul the mechanics of the entire game. It's the "perfect" solution for those who want more difficulty, but it's not to the casual players or more importantly to Zenimax. They already outlined why, too many resources, too few players interested, split playerbase.

So I'm only in favor of ideas that work within those limitations and even suggested some.

Challenge banners at story bosses, debuff food, etc.

Lady_Galadhiel

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I would like to point out that I am just an average player, and the hardest content I do is vet dungeons(non-DLC) and some normal trials, and even I find the overland stupidly easy to the point of frustation, so it must be even worse for high elite players

It's better for many of us who engage in actually difficult content, not worse. One reason I don't mind Overland being easy very much is It's a nice break from harder, more organized content. I don't gotta care about which set I have or focus on not getting one shot, I can just listen to some interesting dialogue and chill. When I get sick of hard content, vet content is there for me. And vice versa.

I think the majority of the people who complain about Vet Overland are the people who refuse to actually challenge themselves with the actually difficult content in this game in favor of playing tutorial content over and over, then complain about the game being too easy. If you've never done something like try to get a vet dlc dungeon skin, go for flawless conqueror, or killed a vet dlc trial boss ofc this game seems too easy. You're purposefully avoiding hard content.

There are definitely some people out there who only do vet content though. I sympathize with them. We need more arenas and such.

Exactly this.

Cillion3117

CP5 wrote: »

"Uh, so we had that ... at launch. It was called Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold. Nobody did it and everybody hated it, so we took it out."

Right here, he references the silver and gold zones.

I enjoyed the silver and gold back in the day. Tough content and less people running around. At times it really felt more like a single player game.

colossalvoids

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Next time hopefully discussion won't be derailed this much and people would be able to actually talk to each other and have ideas coming instead of wasting everyone's time.

Presenting a counter arguement to a proposed major change isn't derailing. Many of us believe this change would be harmful, and are speaking up against it.

"Major change" is just one of the many proposals that were given.

It's also a counter argument of another person on things that sometimes aren't even tied to what people are writing about like Caldwell's or old Craglorn. It's an interpretation at the very best when used as answer to something quoted person didn't even saw himself.
Not even an argument I'd say but line of thought that we might follow and use to not step on the same spade over and over again making our proposals, not much more than that.

Even if we assume Rich would make the same comments/arguments all over again after dissecting the topic and answering straight to the points instead of just casually chatting on twitch as he always do it would be an absolute argument set in stone if only zos would never made mistakes and yet we remember the exact opposite. The more years you played the more situations like "we have the data so here's a change proposal" you should remember like cast time on shields, dots re-standardisation, light/heavy attack rebalance proposal and many more smaller ones like "according to some data there was a change that was scrapped later on because in actuality it wasn't justified or game breaking". Forums exists because people who care enough to voice their opinions are shaping the game for others at times. We did it a lot already and more to come.

Remember how I asked a guildy to ask some dev about gear/spec swaps and he was back from the event with nope, next year Alcast asked Rich live about it where it was more of a "maybe" answer and here we are now, one month from it's first iteration. An anecdote of sorts but still if there's a demand it would absolutely find a way to manifest in a way whatever it might be.

SilverBride

Cillion3117 wrote: »

I enjoyed the silver and gold back in the day. Tough content and less people running around. At times it really felt more like a single player game.

I play solo most of the time when questing, but stop now and then to help others with World Bosses for example. I enjoy seeing others in the world doing their thing as well, and grouping up occasionally for common goals.

ESO is not a single player game and should not behave as one.

Syrpynt

I'm only for harder overland content if ZoS makes that mode client-side solo content instead of server side.

Topic Ender: You're not going to get "difficulty" settings unless it's client-hosted because there aren't enough instances/servers to handle splitting content between normal and veteran without more performance issues. No way around it, done. No more argument for toggle difficulty. Unless they do this, it's not happening. Those opposed can be at rest, and those for it are arguing for the wrong priority of changes.

I'd love hard solo content like pre-OneTamriel. I remember dying while fighting the Black Dragon clones miniboss (in the DB main quest) over and over and over when I strictly played solo, but it was actually because I was using DW on a magblade character, and didn't know any better then. Now, thankfully, this next update will let me do that--without too much penalty.

What I've wanted with ESO from the start is overworld content that is SOLO, no other players unless you host them (like Dark Souls), and if/when I want to see other players, I can go to a public server to play alongside strangers (like Monster Hunter).

tl;dr - I guess what I really wished ESO was, is to be an optional co-op, and not an MMO. If this was the case, then I'd be for harder content toggle. Change the developers minds to make content client side for solo content, and then I'll support this pursuit.

Franchise408

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Ravensilver wrote: »

Lodrik wrote: »

Everyone that thinks Eso's overland is hard enough hasnt really played the game. Even as a casual player, this level of difficulty is a joke.

I'm a casual player and I think ESO Overland is perfect the way it is.

It's great that you like overland. But there are a large number of non-casual players who don't play beyond the crafting stations in Vivec.

The vast majority of players prefer and use the Overland. The people who want it harder in a small minority, straight from the devs mouths. People really need to understand this before making suggestions, as there seems to be a common misconception that the number of players who want this is large. It is not. The vast majority want the easy content.

Or maybe just players who want gameplay just leave the game after completing two or three locations and realizing that it won't be any more fun? This is called survivorship bias. Sometimes I think I wouldn't be playing this game if it wasn't called the Elder Scrolls. I love this universe a lot, but the visual novel genre is not mine at all.

I would not be here at all if it weren't called "Elder Scrolls"

And the sad thing is, this game really is just Elder Scrolls in name only. Gameplay wise, it is completely unrecognizable to anything Elder Scrolls. It plays more like Diablo 3 than it does any TES game.

SilverBride

Franchise408 wrote: »

I would not be here at all if it weren't called "Elder Scrolls"

And the sad thing is, this game really is just Elder Scrolls in name only. Gameplay wise, it is completely unrecognizable to anything Elder Scrolls. It plays more like Diablo 3 than it does any TES game.

There is a difference between being a TES game and being based on the TES games. ESO is based on TES but is adapted to multiplayer, so will not play the same as a single player game.

Franchise408

SilverBride wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I meant that most of the players, on average, do not stay in the game for more than a few weeks. This is basically the reality of the game industry today. But you shouldn't think that the game won't survive. In the end, these players spend some money. And most likely the profit comes at the expense of the mass scale. I will definitely find a proof when I have time.

I had never even considered that this is how some were playing. I stay active in a game until I'm not and don't tend to come in and out like that.

A lot of people play differently than you may

Iccotak

Huh…

Syrpynt wrote: »

What I've wanted with ESO from the start is overworld content that is SOLO, no other players unless you host them (like Dark Souls), and if/when I want to see other players, I can go to a public server to play alongside strangers (like Monster Hunter).

tl;dr - I guess what I really wished ESO was, is to be an optional co-op, and not an MMO. If this was the case, then I'd be for harder content toggle. Change the developers minds to make content client side for solo content, and then I'll support this pursuit.

Franchise408 wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Ravensilver wrote: »

Lodrik wrote: »

Everyone that thinks Eso's overland is hard enough hasnt really played the game. Even as a casual player, this level of difficulty is a joke.

I'm a casual player and I think ESO Overland is perfect the way it is.

It's great that you like overland. But there are a large number of non-casual players who don't play beyond the crafting stations in Vivec.

The vast majority of players prefer and use the Overland. The people who want it harder in a small minority, straight from the devs mouths. People really need to understand this before making suggestions, as there seems to be a common misconception that the number of players who want this is large. It is not. The vast majority want the easy content.

Or maybe just players who want gameplay just leave the game after completing two or three locations and realizing that it won't be any more fun? This is called survivorship bias. Sometimes I think I wouldn't be playing this game if it wasn't called the Elder Scrolls. I love this universe a lot, but the visual novel genre is not mine at all.

I would not be here at all if it weren't called "Elder Scrolls"

And the sad thing is, this game really is just Elder Scrolls in name only. Gameplay wise, it is completely unrecognizable to anything Elder Scrolls. It plays more like Diablo 3 than it does any TES game.

sooo Skyrim 2.0 Online

Franchise408

SilverBride wrote: »

Eridanus wrote: »

...DLC dungeons are more difficult than the ones in the base game; why would they do that if no one wanted it?

There have been multiple requests to remove DLC dungeons from the dungeon finder because a lot of players don't enjoy the increased difficulty.

No, a lot of players want quicker rewards. That is the reason for the request. Not because they are too difficult.

jle30303

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Eridanus wrote: »

...DLC dungeons are more difficult than the ones in the base game; why would they do that if no one wanted it?

There have been multiple requests to remove DLC dungeons from the dungeon finder because a lot of players don't enjoy the increased difficulty.

No, a lot of players want quicker rewards. That is the reason for the request. Not because they are too difficult.

Not true of everybody. For me it is not the speed of the reward, it *is* the difficulty. I do not do random veterans because I simply do not enjoy the difficulty of veteran DLC dungeons. I can handle the mechanics and difficulty of veteran normal, but most veteran DLC I find just unfun and unenjoyable.

Whereas I am quite happy to do random normals and play through whichever dungeon we get as an actual normal. Throw me Scalecaller Peak when I was hoping for Fungal Grotto? Fine.

Elsonso

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Eridanus wrote: »

...DLC dungeons are more difficult than the ones in the base game; why would they do that if no one wanted it?

There have been multiple requests to remove DLC dungeons from the dungeon finder because a lot of players don't enjoy the increased difficulty.

No, a lot of players want quicker rewards. That is the reason for the request. Not because they are too difficult.

Hard mode is intended to be the "player vs game dev" mode. I wonder how many people activate that and complete it.

Blood_again

Maya_Nur wrote: »

1. Humans psychologically need a sense of progression, a feeling of growing (that's why RPGs have leveling systems at all) so self-debuff is like God pretending human, while toggle mod is more like a God went for a challenge. By the way, increasing mob's stats won't work. As CP5 said and others said previously, we need smarter enemies which DESIRE to kill us.
2. Playing with others but with a debuff upon a character just doesn't make sense because low-level characters already have an invisible buff so they can rival an 160CP overland. Making newbies strong and veterans weak is just rediculous.

Toggle also implies (would be nice at least) an oportunity to replay all the quests once again. I have completed zones' stories years ago, but finish them again with another character is not for me. Not only because I like my main, but also because gameplay is not engaging now.

There is an issue with implementing smarter enemies. You literally want to have a new game inside ESO. I'm afraid it's hard to "sell" this idea to ZoS. So we need a compromise. How to make the current overland changes as minimal as possible to make what you accept as "vet"?

Solution with veteran and newcomer is even harder. Please remember that we are taking steps from the current game in current state. Do you really want a challenge in battle with mobs? Or do you want just to feel stronger than newcomer? It is two different directions to move, two ideas to "sell".

Parasaurolophus

summ0004 wrote: »

I havent posted before about this but feel I should voice my opinion on the matter.

I actually agree that the overland has become far too trivial with some of the mobs and it definately ruins any sense of immersion in the game, and as a result I have not purchased any of the last two expansions as it represents poor value for money if I cant enjoy playing through the open world and quests which is a shame. I also know of plenty of people in the game who also share this same experience and do not do overland as a result and only focus on pvp or just trials and dungeons.

I would like to point out that I am just an average player, and the hardest content I do is vet dungeons(non-DLC) and some normal trials, and even I find the overland stupidly easy to the point of frustation, so it must be even worse for high elite players. In fact even my 8 year old daughter plays casually doing the quests etc, and she doesnt do anything else but button mash and doesnt understand dots and weaving and even she finds it really easy. So there is a problem here.

Overland is the major part of the game and should be enjoyable for everyone, and people should not be forced into running the same few trials and vet dungeons on repeat to get any satisfaction out of the combat in the game. I know some of the issue is powercreep with champion points, but I have just tried making a new char with no CPs and got to level 20 wearing grey and green items and still havent managed to die yet.

The game has combat abilities and upto 10 skills, but they seem almost useless to use in overland because of the braindead mobs being killed too easily. They have lots of exciting armour sets that again seem almost pointless.

The whole point of an RPG is too develop your character and make builds using different abilities, leveling up and trying out new gear to overcome challenges, and unfortunately this games overland does not allow that progression in most instances.

These things kill the immersion in the game. People now have the option of companions to make it even easier, and it should not be a big ask for people to at least try and learn the basics of the game. If you can put out 5K dps that is more than enough to destroy any normal overland mobs currently, and even my 8 year old daughter can manage that with little to no understanding of the game.

I dont know the best way of fixing this problem, but I believe it is harming the retention of players.

What you wrote is amazing. I also believe that the community needs to focus not on finding a solution to the problem too easy overland, but on first of all to state the problem.

Hallothiel

You allow your eight year old to play this game?

Interesting. And a tad concerning.

(And know this might get removed or complained about etc but have worked in social care for a while & so have an opinion on this.)

summ0004

Hallothiel wrote: »

You allow your eight year old to play this game?

Interesting. And a tad concerning.

(And know this might get removed or complained about etc but have worked in social care for a while & so have an opinion on this.)

Only in a very casual sense solo for limited amounts of time. The game is in no way graphic or realistic and is pure fantasy and does not contain adult content such as the Witcher 3 so no harm is done.

trackdemon5512

Hallothiel wrote: »

You allow your eight year old to play this game?

Interesting. And a tad concerning.

(And know this might get removed or complained about etc but have worked in social care for a while & so have an opinion on this.)

I find this game to be more than acceptable for youth content wise. The story and DLC never veer into raunchy or unacceptable content.

If anything the only reason to keep your kids out of this game are voice chat/zone chats. The game content isn’t potentially harmful, it’s other players.

spartaxoxo

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

You allow your eight year old to play this game?

Interesting. And a tad concerning.

(And know this might get removed or complained about etc but have worked in social care for a while & so have an opinion on this.)

I find this game to be more than acceptable for youth content wise. The story and DLC never veer into raunchy or unacceptable content.

If anything the only reason to keep your kids out of this game are voice chat/zone chats. The game content isn’t potentially harmful, it’s other players.

Well there's also drug use, slavery, etc. Depends on the kid and the quest to me. If I had a kid I think I'd probably let them play overall but might censor some aspects.

summ0004

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I would like to point out that I am just an average player, and the hardest content I do is vet dungeons(non-DLC) and some normal trials, and even I find the overland stupidly easy to the point of frustation, so it must be even worse for high elite players

It's better for many of us who engage in actually difficult content, not worse. One reason I don't mind Overland being easy very much is It's a nice break from harder, more organized content. I don't gotta care about which set I have or focus on not getting one shot, I can just listen to some interesting dialogue and chill. When I get sick of hard content, vet content is there for me. And vice versa.

I think the majority of the people who complain about Vet Overland are the people who refuse to actually challenge themselves with the actually difficult content in this game in favor of playing tutorial content over and over, then complain about the game being too easy. If you've never done something like try to get a vet dlc dungeon skin, go for flawless conqueror, or killed a vet dlc trial boss ofc this game seems too easy. You're purposefully avoiding hard content.

There are definitely some people out there who only do vet content though. I sympathize with them. We need more arenas and such.

You miss the point. Most of the game is the overland, and all the expansions that get released are focused around a new story and zone that alienates any player that is able to do any sort of damage beyond light/heavy attack spams. Where is the incentive for those players to purchase new content if its not fun for them to play it?

Another thing, getting involved in trials becomes very elitist and min max and also requires a commitment and some players do not wish to get involved in too much of this sort of play because of life responsibilities etc. I remember my days in WoW when i was single, having to fight for raid spots, having to turn up on set days at set times and having to join discord and speak on microphones etc. Its all rather stressfull after a while and doesnt fit in with everyones life style.

Seems this game seems to be suited towards the most incapable newbies in overland, or those elite who want to do 100K dps and spend their life doing trials and hardcore pvp.

Would it not be nice to have a game that catered for players who enjoy the quests, but can actually have a world where mobs dont die the second you sneeze on them?

BTW I am not even suggesting hardcore dark souls like mobs that one shot, but at least fight back and allow you to use some abilities and gear.

spartaxoxo

summ0004 wrote: »

You miss the point. Most of the game is the overland, and all the expansions that get released are focused around a new story and zone that alienates any player that is able to do any sort of damage beyond light/heavy attack spams. Where is the incentive for those players to purchase new content if its not fun for them to play it?

No. I did not miss the point. I disagreed with it. Just because YOU are alienated and some others doesn't mean others are and I used an example of a high level player that CAN trivialize that content enjoying it anyway. The vast majority of players in this game already enjoy the story content. You don't speak for everyone strong.

Another thing, getting involved in trials becomes very elitist and min max and also requires a commitment and some players do not wish to get involved in too much of this sort of play because of life responsibilities etc. I remember my days in WoW when i was single, having to fight for raid spots, having to turn up on set days at set times and having to join discord and speak on microphones etc. Its all rather stressfull after a while and doesnt fit in with everyones life style.

And? You don't need to run with the elitists. There is more hard content than just trials. Nobody can tell you how you to tackle flawless conqueror, which is literally a solo experience. All this talk about elitists just tells me there's a sizable portion of this game that don't want to get good but also want to do difficult content. They just want to play their way and their way only. That's fine and great but you can't expect devs to take away the new player content for that.

Seems this game seems to be suited towards the most incapable newbies in overland, or those elite who want to do 100K dps and spend their life doing trials and hardcore pvp.

Most content in this game is for middle tier.

Would it not be nice to have a game that catered for players who enjoy the quests, but can actually have a world where mobs dont die the second you sneeze on them?

BTW I am not even suggesting hardcore dark souls like mobs that one shot, but at least fight back and allow you to use some abilities and gear.

Catering to players who can't do vet dlc dungeons or trials wouldn't change anything for me in terms of difficulty of Overland. It would just make it more boring. I kill Craglorn stuff quickly too.

All that would do, for me personally, is make it more of a chore. To make it a challenge for me, would make it impossible for a new player to do. And I care more about new players constantly coming and having fun, than I do about having every piece of content catered to my skill level. I don't even want it to be. Overland is relaxing after getting hyped doing harder content.

summ0004

SilverBride wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

I have just tried making a new char with no CPs and got to level 20 wearing grey and green items and still havent managed to die yet.

How would dying make your experience more enjoyable? Most players get frustrated by dying to what should be easy mobs when trying to complete a simple quest.

Of course constant dying isnt fun and I wouldnt wish that either, but neither is fighting mobs that pose no threat whatsoever to the point where its impossible to die unless you make deliberate attempt to die or go AFK.

Is it not fun to at least be able to fire a few damage abilities, or perhaps cast a heal or a shield, or block or dodge once in a while during a fight? Because in its current state there is no need to do any of this.

JJOtterBear

Not sure why we need to make every game the same. Why Can't ESO just be what it is? Why does it have to be like New World. Go play that, if that is what fulfills you.

Why is the solution to change the game for everyone just because a small part of the playerbase thinks it should be?

Facefister

The vast majority of the Overland was and is either for questing or farming resources and assets. A "vet" overland will be a fun distraction for the first week or two, but ultimately, people will turn it off since it will unnecessarily prolong the process of the two said things which the Overland is for.

Except you dish out higher and better rewards from a "vet" Overland, but I don't see that happening either since people will complain about that.