800k people don't seem to mind difficult overworld

Kamatsu

Callosum wrote: »

One thing you keep on telling everyone in these threads is that we are "very small minority". I don't really think that you actually have any idea whether this is true or not. Just looking a recent poll it seems to be quite even on this forum and even if this is a specific selection of the playersbase "a very small minority" is probably not true after all.

STO, LotRO, WoW, GW2 Dev's have admitted over the years that only 10-15% of their active playerbase ever visits/post's their official forums. So posting a poll on these forums is NOT representative of the playerbase, nor are threads posted here - as the forumgoers here are only going to be 10-15% of the active playerbase.

As for how small a minority raiders & hardcore players are? Original WoW and BC expansion are classic examples.

WoW devv's revealed why they moved the top base WoW raid to being the bottom tier raid in WotLK, why they worked on the LFR system, and why they tried to make raid introduction easier - this was because as of the end of BC, only 6-7% of their active players had ever even stepped into a raid. only 4-5% had completed the initial raid, only 1% had made it to the ultimate/final base-game raid and less than 0.5% had finished it.

WoW, an MMO that was knows as a "raid or die" MMO, where the entire focus of the dev's was on the raiding scene (due to them being raiders themselves, not due to player demand) couldn't even get 10% of it's playerbase to enter raids, let alone complete any of them. It had to make raiding easier, introduce a LFR system, and then finally forced players mid/third way through an expansions story into doing LFR to get ppl into raids.

So yes, when ppl label the ppl calling for a "harder overland" a vocal minority - that is exactly what they are. They are a vocal minority of a minority of the playerbase.

Sylvermynx

Er.... well.... ZOS hasn't posted anything like that sort of percentage - so I don't think it's really reasonable to assume that this particular game forum follows blindly the percentages posted by other game publishers.

It might be more. Or it might be less. We don't know, as ZOS doesn't provide metrics.

Kamatsu

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Er.... well.... ZOS hasn't posted anything like that sort of percentage - so I don't think it's really reasonable to assume that this particular game forum follows blindly the percentages posted by other game publishers.

It might be more. Or it might be less. We don't know, as ZOS doesn't provide metrics.

While we don't know the exact numbers - the fact that it's such a widespread trend over many different MMO's gives a good indication that the # of ppl who post & visit this forum are in the 5-25% of active players range. Especially when the other MMO's are all of a similar nature to ESO.

I personally think that those wanting harder content would be better off looking for things that can be done initially that might not take too much from the dev's time, and won't/can't effect the majority. Such as pushing for a toggle on story instances between the normal mode and a harder mode. Yes having a harder mode would add dev time to do & test... but chances are Zenimax would be more willing to do that than try and do a whole shard/server split.

Also look at features that have already been introduced into the overland to try and give harder content to ppl and provide feedback on them - were they too easy, too hard, too inaccessible, not scaled well enough, not/too frequent enough, etc. So things like the Harrowstorms, Dragons, World Bosses, and soon-to-come traveling mobs?

I would say you are likely to get a better reception to changing/tweaking/adding more things like that... that offer optional & additional difficulty to the overland, while still letting casual players experience the story at the base 'easy' difficulty. Combined with the above thought on story-mode 'hard' toggle if possible... and that will likely get more support and possibly actually happening, than constantly pushing for things that Zenimax have said for years they are against (ie making overland hard for everyone, splitting the playerbase, etc).

trackdemon5512

HARROWSTORMS.

People don’t seem to remember but when Harrowstorms debuted they were widely complained about. Excessively hard for overworld. Unfair with mechanics like the Wraith of Crow attacks.

They gave Harrowstorms several world boss level enemies that rotated in cycles and had plenty of telegraphed attacks.

You go into Western Skyrim now and what do you find? No one is doing Harrowstorms. The same storm sits in the same place for hours. Head down into Blackreach and it’s the same thing.

And this has a domino effect. Players don’t come in to do the world bosses or delves.

Next to Craglorn, Western Skyrim and Blackreach are the deadest zones. And both just reinforced the fact that the demand for harder overland is just shallow. Players give it up and easily move on.

temerley

Lol, same as WS world bosses, iirc the void mother thing is the only one that people don’t ask help for (at least on PS/PC-NA)

Callosum

The problem with open world events, bosses etc. is that they really lack incentive. The rewards you get from doing writs, play normal random dungeons and in general just easy content is way better than the rewards you get from hard open world content. When players have limited time especially on weekdays they find them selves busy farming these currencies because they are important if you want to stay competitive. In my opinion this is ruining the game because you end up logging in just the do boring stuff. On week days i normally don't have the time to find groups for Vet content, so I would love just to go out questing a bit but I just can't but find it engaging anymore. I really envy you guys for who the questing and exploration experience is still magical it was the reason i started playing in the first place as well.

Blood_again

Callosum wrote: »

The problem with open world events, bosses etc. is that they really lack incentive. The rewards you get from doing writs, play normal random dungeons and in general just easy content is way better than the rewards you get from hard open world content. When players have limited time especially on weekdays they find them selves busy farming these currencies because they are important if you want to stay competitive. In my opinion this is ruining the game because you end up logging in just the do boring stuff. On week days i normally don't have the time to find groups for Vet content, so I would love just to go out questing a bit but I just can't but find it engaging anymore. I really envy you guys for who the questing and exploration experience is still magical it was the reason i started playing in the first place as well.

So you focus on "stay competitive". Therefore you spend your time on farming routines. After that your vet-ready character burns an overland in seconds.
Did I get right, that some competitive people are bored by routine they choose themselves, so they want more difficulty and rewards from overland to make it another one boring competitive routine?
What about not focusing on "staying competitive"? Isn't it a root of the problem?

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

CP5

Blood_again wrote: »

Callosum wrote: »

The problem with open world events, bosses etc. is that they really lack incentive. The rewards you get from doing writs, play normal random dungeons and in general just easy content is way better than the rewards you get from hard open world content. When players have limited time especially on weekdays they find them selves busy farming these currencies because they are important if you want to stay competitive. In my opinion this is ruining the game because you end up logging in just the do boring stuff. On week days i normally don't have the time to find groups for Vet content, so I would love just to go out questing a bit but I just can't but find it engaging anymore. I really envy you guys for who the questing and exploration experience is still magical it was the reason i started playing in the first place as well.

So you focus on "stay competitive". Therefore you spend your time on farming routines. After that your vet-ready character burns an overland in seconds.
Did I get right, that some competitive people are bored by routine they choose themselves, so they want more difficulty and rewards from overland to make it another one boring competitive routine?
What about not focusing on "staying competitive"? Isn't it a root of the problem?

[snip]

Or, players who even aren't aiming to be competitive but do end game content, realize just how simple overland is and want to do something other than run the same trials ad nauseam and could potentially enjoy an entire world to explore and quest in, if only they weren't bored stiff by it.

[edited to remove quote]

Maya_Nur

Does anyone played Requiem mod for Skyrim?

I think it has a good way to set up a difficulty: travelling becomes an adventure itself; dailies feel like an adventurer job – dangerous and worth trying; your brain starts to think (for the first time I used traps on regular bandits, had to separate them from each other, made a diversionary maneuvers, sent my ghost wolf to attract their attention so I can change location).

I played with a sorcery/poison magic and I SHOULD wear light armor to maximize my power, but it made me a one-shot target for any warrior, so I constantly kept a distance. Monsters became an actual monsters: I struggled to defeat a troll so I can overdamage his unnatural health regeneration, and won only when I did another quest and posessed a flame-enchanted sword. I didn't run through a location, I walked. Slowly and carefully, so I would have enough stamina to dodge an ambush. I sneaked through the woods, maked an ambush myself for a single necromancer I suddenly found at the border of the map.

It was ridiculously hard but... Real.

If anyone is interesting, I recommend you a Xandr's version of Requiem.

colossalvoids

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

HARROWSTORMS.

People don’t seem to remember but when Harrowstorms debuted they were widely complained about. Excessively hard for overworld. Unfair with mechanics like the Wraith of Crow attacks.

They gave Harrowstorms several world boss level enemies that rotated in cycles and had plenty of telegraphed attacks.

You go into Western Skyrim now and what do you find? No one is doing Harrowstorms. The same storm sits in the same place for hours. Head down into Blackreach and it’s the same thing.

And this has a domino effect. Players don’t come in to do the world bosses or delves.

Next to Craglorn, Western Skyrim and Blackreach are the deadest zones. And both just reinforced the fact that the demand for harder overland is just shallow. Players give it up and easily move on.

Harrowstorm event is a content that people are feed up with after initial grind they had, then start of a motif drop and after that an events on top to kill any interest doing it again. It's also a victim of zos trying to engage everyone in a semi-veteran activity which is either zerged down or ignored as a single map point of difficult content isn't really making map interesting or engaging, especially after zos dragged main playerbase through couple of grind phases already. Been there done that so to say, soloing it after release was kind of interesting but it's getting old extremely fast as it's just a mini event in a zone that failed on top of that.

Having this much in-game events doesn't helps, we're always will be chasing something new plus new zone releases so people who actually stays in those zones should love the current design of braindead overland and challenging dots scattered around and I've met none. (Also quest writing, zone design etc.) People either enjoy it the way it is or just ignore it and go instanced content that is actually replayable.

Won't even comment on blackreach which is a navigation hell for most people I've talked to. Add to that underwhelming design, lack of interesting places to visit, no real player hub to be an actual zone and a couple clicks buried in already not popular map.

Putting Craglorn even close to that that isn't really fair, it's never been as empty as for example Greenshade or Reaper's March even before the antiquities and now it's pretty full even in general overland as people doing events regularly for leads not talking instanced content which is constantly done and people roaming around virtually everywhere, not even taking farmers in consideration. It's also a very different design from any new zone so it's not really something to compare directly.

Blood_again

CP5 wrote: »

Or, players who even aren't aiming to be competitive but do end game content, realize just how simple overland is and want to do something other than run the same trials ad nauseam and could potentially enjoy an entire world to explore and quest in, if only they weren't bored stiff by it.

There was a question before: what can motivate players to do a difficult overland? In other words, how can ZoS sell it to many people?
It is a question for you - people who eager to see the overland high difficulty. Answer it please. What are your ideas about it?
It will work for you goal better that trying to persuade other players, that everybody need it.
No reason to persuade players. Persuade ZoS.

Hallothiel

@Blood_again

Apparently it would just be for the joy of doing harder stuff & making overland more ‘meaningful’ but I would bet good money that after an extremely short while there would be demands for better rewards…..😉

CP5

Blood_again wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Or, players who even aren't aiming to be competitive but do end game content, realize just how simple overland is and want to do something other than run the same trials ad nauseam and could potentially enjoy an entire world to explore and quest in, if only they weren't bored stiff by it.

There was a question before: what can motivate players to do a difficult overland? In other words, how can ZoS sell it to many people?
It is a question for you - people who eager to see the overland high difficulty. Answer it please. What are your ideas about it?
It will work for you goal better that trying to persuade other players, that everybody need it.
No reason to persuade players. Persuade ZoS.

I used to love questing. I used to do it all the time. Between that and exploring overland, I could spend countless hours in game. Now though any encounter with enemies feels like a chore. Quest are forgettable as the main thing stringing them together fails to be engaging, and climatic moments built up over the course of a year fall flat. I can't quest for more than a half hour, if that, before it becomes apparent that the only thing I'm accomplishing is getting to the next 'npc complains about an easily solvable problem that can't be solved until we collect all 27 McGuffin Muffins.' Exploring is even worse, since any thrill that exist when venturing into a dangerous location is ruined when you realize the denizens of the Deadlands are less aggressive than the oversized shrimp that camp outside Wayrest north gate.

Why quest when I know in advance how the plot will go and there will be no memorable moments along the way. Why explore when I know that aside from nice views, there won't be any sense of meaning in my time spent. I've spent some time recently playing Dragon's Dogma, in short an old action rpg, and I get more thrill walking down the road at night, straining my eyes against the dark looking for threats looming beyond my lantern's view, than I do diving head first into a keep full of vampires keen on ending the world. Enemies who don't bother fighting back render both the quest and exploration tedious for some players, that's the issue, I'm looking for moments that are worth remembering.

My post a little earlier has a rather text heavy spoiler if you are interested in specifics.

madrab73

colossalvoids wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

HARROWSTORMS.

People don’t seem to remember but when Harrowstorms debuted they were widely complained about. Excessively hard for overworld. Unfair with mechanics like the Wraith of Crow attacks.

They gave Harrowstorms several world boss level enemies that rotated in cycles and had plenty of telegraphed attacks.

You go into Western Skyrim now and what do you find? No one is doing Harrowstorms. The same storm sits in the same place for hours. Head down into Blackreach and it’s the same thing.

And this has a domino effect. Players don’t come in to do the world bosses or delves.

Next to Craglorn, Western Skyrim and Blackreach are the deadest zones. And both just reinforced the fact that the demand for harder overland is just shallow. Players give it up and easily move on.

Harrowstorm event is a content that people are feed up with after initial grind they had, then start of a motif drop and after that an events on top to kill any interest doing it again. It's also a victim of zos trying to engage everyone in a semi-veteran activity which is either zerged down or ignored as a single map point of difficult content isn't really making map interesting or engaging, especially after zos dragged main playerbase through couple of grind phases already. Been there done that so to say, soloing it after release was kind of interesting but it's getting old extremely fast as it's just a mini event in a zone that failed on top of that.

Having this much in-game events doesn't helps, we're always will be chasing something new plus new zone releases so people who actually stays in those zones should love the current design of braindead overland and challenging dots scattered around and I've met none. (Also quest writing, zone design etc.) People either enjoy it the way it is or just ignore it and go instanced content that is actually replayable.

Won't even comment on blackreach which is a navigation hell for most people I've talked to. Add to that underwhelming design, lack of interesting places to visit, no real player hub to be an actual zone and a couple clicks buried in already not popular map.

Putting Craglorn even close to that that isn't really fair, it's never been as empty as for example Greenshade or Reaper's March even before the antiquities and now it's pretty full even in general overland as people doing events regularly for leads not talking instanced content which is constantly done and people roaming around virtually everywhere, not even taking farmers in consideration. It's also a very different design from any new zone so it's not really something to compare directly.

Craglorn was a dead zone before they nerfed the difficulty to attract casual players.

colossalvoids

madrab73 wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

HARROWSTORMS.

People don’t seem to remember but when Harrowstorms debuted they were widely complained about. Excessively hard for overworld. Unfair with mechanics like the Wraith of Crow attacks.

They gave Harrowstorms several world boss level enemies that rotated in cycles and had plenty of telegraphed attacks.

You go into Western Skyrim now and what do you find? No one is doing Harrowstorms. The same storm sits in the same place for hours. Head down into Blackreach and it’s the same thing.

And this has a domino effect. Players don’t come in to do the world bosses or delves.

Next to Craglorn, Western Skyrim and Blackreach are the deadest zones. And both just reinforced the fact that the demand for harder overland is just shallow. Players give it up and easily move on.

Harrowstorm event is a content that people are feed up with after initial grind they had, then start of a motif drop and after that an events on top to kill any interest doing it again. It's also a victim of zos trying to engage everyone in a semi-veteran activity which is either zerged down or ignored as a single map point of difficult content isn't really making map interesting or engaging, especially after zos dragged main playerbase through couple of grind phases already. Been there done that so to say, soloing it after release was kind of interesting but it's getting old extremely fast as it's just a mini event in a zone that failed on top of that.

Having this much in-game events doesn't helps, we're always will be chasing something new plus new zone releases so people who actually stays in those zones should love the current design of braindead overland and challenging dots scattered around and I've met none. (Also quest writing, zone design etc.) People either enjoy it the way it is or just ignore it and go instanced content that is actually replayable.

Won't even comment on blackreach which is a navigation hell for most people I've talked to. Add to that underwhelming design, lack of interesting places to visit, no real player hub to be an actual zone and a couple clicks buried in already not popular map.

Putting Craglorn even close to that that isn't really fair, it's never been as empty as for example Greenshade or Reaper's March even before the antiquities and now it's pretty full even in general overland as people doing events regularly for leads not talking instanced content which is constantly done and people roaming around virtually everywhere, not even taking farmers in consideration. It's also a very different design from any new zone so it's not really something to compare directly.

Craglorn was a dead zone before they nerfed the difficulty to attract casual players.

It was a whole different game to begin with, it's unrealistic to compare anything pre one tamriel to what we have now, can just compare eso to Skyrim Requiem mod as some poster above. It suffered same fate as a tons of stuff in ESO - hammer approach rather than precise surgery.

Maya_Nur

Blood_again wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Or, players who even aren't aiming to be competitive but do end game content, realize just how simple overland is and want to do something other than run the same trials ad nauseam and could potentially enjoy an entire world to explore and quest in, if only they weren't bored stiff by it.

There was a question before: what can motivate players to do a difficult overland? In other words, how can ZoS sell it to many people?
It is a question for you - people who eager to see the overland high difficulty. Answer it please. What are your ideas about it?
It will work for you goal better that trying to persuade other players, that everybody need it.
No reason to persuade players. Persuade ZoS.

As has been said many times, rewards should become worth trying. Currently they are underwhelming even for an easy overland. When I save the king or even a whole kingdom, there must be something more than a set piece or 147 gold. I suggest more gold (5-50k as quest chain goes to it's climax), houseguest/companion (character who took a participation in the story), coffer with rare materials (not 10 ancestral silk like it was in my bounties of BW cascade coffer). If there would be a reputation system (with a city mangement or something like that) I would suggest a decent amount of RP.

Blood_again

Hallothiel wrote: »

@Blood_again
Apparently it would just be for the joy of doing harder stuff & making overland more ‘meaningful’ but I would bet good money that after an extremely short while there would be demands for better rewards…..😉

Extra money? Why not? That's a good point.
You know, people who don't want vet overland so much do offer some good ideas how to do it more often, than people who want it. That's the thing that confusing me

CP5 wrote: »

Blood_again wrote: »

There was a question before: what can motivate players to do a difficult overland? In other words, how can ZoS sell it to many people?
[skipped]
No reason to persuade players. Persuade ZoS.

I used to love questing. I used to do it all the time. Between that and exploring overland, I could spend countless hours in game. Now though any encounter with enemies feels like a chore. Quest are forgettable as the main thing stringing them together fails to be engaging, and climatic moments built up over the course of a year fall flat. I can't quest for more than a half hour, if that, before it becomes apparent that the only thing I'm accomplishing is getting to the next 'npc complains about an easily solvable problem that can't be solved until we collect all 27 McGuffin Muffins.' Exploring is even worse, since any thrill that exist when venturing into a dangerous location is ruined when you realize the denizens of the Deadlands are less aggressive than the oversized shrimp that camp outside Wayrest north gate.

Why quest when I know in advance how the plot will go and there will be no memorable moments along the way. Why explore when I know that aside from nice views, there won't be any sense of meaning in my time spent. I've spent some time recently playing Dragon's Dogma, in short an old action rpg, and I get more thrill walking down the road at night, straining my eyes against the dark looking for threats looming beyond my lantern's view, than I do diving head first into a keep full of vampires keen on ending the world. Enemies who don't bother fighting back render both the quest and exploration tedious for some players, that's the issue, I'm looking for moments that are worth remembering.

My post a little earlier has a rather text heavy spoiler if you are interested in specifics.

Sorry to hear that. But really...
In short, you just said three things: you feel bad about current overland, overland could be better, you played other game where you liked it.
Which of that things will persuade ZoS to change this current game? Where is the idea which reward you want for doing vet overland? How are you going to "sell" the vet overland this way?

Maya_Nur wrote: »

As has been said many times, rewards should become worth trying. Currently they are underwhelming even for an easy overland. When I save the king or even a whole kingdom, there must be something more than a set piece or 147 gold. I suggest more gold (5-50k as quest chain goes to it's climax), houseguest/companion (character who took a participation in the story), coffer with rare materials (not 10 ancestral silk like it was in my bounties of BW cascade coffer). If there would be a reputation system (with a city mangement or something like that) I would suggest a decent amount of RP.

Great! Thank you for the ideas. That the thing which ZoS at least could work.
You told about the quest rewards. So you see the vet overland like totally changed locations in a separate layer. Can it be implemented with the buff/toggle without separation? What do you think?

Tra_Lalan

This thread has got 22 pages, this topic cames back to the forum every month.

I think that is a clear sign to ZOS to do something about it.

1. There are many players who like the current state of overland - let them have it the way it is.
2. There are many players who think that the current state of overland is too easy which makes it boring to play - give them something to make it playable for them again.

I don't feel like the second group is a minority that shouldn't be adressed. Also I don't agree that there is nothing that can be done about it. There were many good ideas here, that ZOS can work with.

You say that they arent going to do anything because there is no profit in it? A huge company is getting response from its clients that there is a flaw in their product, and they just keep producing new content with the same flaw? The more satisfied customers ZOS has, the more money they make. Also think about all those players who don't buy the newest chapter, because there is nothing in it for them.

To be clear I'm not an end game player, I dont even consider myself a good eso player but for me overland is too easy to the point that it brakes the game. I remember how fun it was to play the story, when I was a low level char, with no expierience. Now I feel something is wrong, when the bosses live is shorter than his recorded speech line.

Amottica

Callosum wrote: »

The problem with open world events, bosses etc. is that they really lack incentive. The rewards you get from doing writs, play normal random dungeons and in general just easy content is way better than the rewards you get from hard open world content. When players have limited time especially on weekdays they find them selves busy farming these currencies because they are important if you want to stay competitive. In my opinion this is ruining the game because you end up logging in just the do boring stuff. On week days i normally don't have the time to find groups for Vet content, so I would love just to go out questing a bit but I just can't but find it engaging anymore. I really envy you guys for who the questing and exploration experience is still magical it was the reason i started playing in the first place as well.

Ironically, this was one of the things Rich said in that video as to why offering an option for an increased difficulty is not so simple which is part of the reason Zenimax is not offering such an option. He said that without an incentive players will avoid doing harder content.

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

This thread has got 22 pages, this topic cames back to the forum every month.

I think that is a clear sign to ZOS to do something about it.

1. There are many players who like the current state of overland - let them have it the way it is.
2. There are many players who think that the current state of overland is too easy which makes it boring to play - give them something to make it playable for them again.

I don't feel like the second group is a minority that shouldn't be adressed. Also I don't agree that there is nothing that can be done about it. There were many good ideas here, that ZOS can work with.

You say that they arent going to do anything because there is no profit in it? A huge company is getting response from its clients that there is a flaw in their product, and they just keep producing new content with the same flaw? The more satisfied customers ZOS has, the more money they make. Also think about all those players who don't buy the newest chapter, because there is nothing in it for them.

To be clear I'm not an end game player, I dont even consider myself a good eso player but for me overland is too easy to the point that it brakes the game. I remember how fun it was to play the story, when I was a low level char, with no expierience. Now I feel something is wrong, when the bosses live is shorter than his recorded speech line.

I suggest scrolling back a few pages to the link for a stream with Rich. He specifically says the data does not lie and that the data says players avoided the more challenging vet zones the game had a launch and that the game has never been as successful as it is now with the current design.

I would also point out that the total number of players that are active in the forums is a drop in the bucket compared to the active player base. I do not think these threads suggest there is a very large interest in such an option.

He makes some very valid points on the business side of things. I would suggest it will take someone making a solid case with real information to get them to change their mind. Going back and forth arguing our opinions with each other does not make that case.

This is why I am not interjecting my opinion on if I want this or not, but merely pointing out that the comments are not addressing the real issue.

Callosum

Blood_again wrote: »

Callosum wrote: »

The problem with open world events, bosses etc. is that they really lack incentive. The rewards you get from doing writs, play normal random dungeons and in general just easy content is way better than the rewards you get from hard open world content. When players have limited time especially on weekdays they find them selves busy farming these currencies because they are important if you want to stay competitive. In my opinion this is ruining the game because you end up logging in just the do boring stuff. On week days i normally don't have the time to find groups for Vet content, so I would love just to go out questing a bit but I just can't but find it engaging anymore. I really envy you guys for who the questing and exploration experience is still magical it was the reason i started playing in the first place as well.

So you focus on "stay competitive". Therefore you spend your time on farming routines. After that your vet-ready character burns an overland in seconds.
Did I get right, that some competitive people are bored by routine they choose themselves, so they want more difficulty and rewards from overland to make it another one boring competitive routine?
What about not focusing on "staying competitive"? Isn't it a root of the problem?

[snip]

No you didn't get it right. I loved doing overland content and especially questing but I also like to progress. Im not an elite player but I like to do vet DLC and trials when i got the time. The problem is that a casual but skilled player ends up having nothing to do because 90% of the content gives you nothing because you progressed to a certain level. Therefore, you end up doing tons of boring stuff just to make sure that you can have some extra fun with the last 10%. I can't do much about it and maybe the game just wasn't for me anyway It's just such a shame because for me ESO got everything except the right difficulty scaling.

[edited to remove quote]

Blood_again

Callosum wrote: »

No you didn't it right. I loved doing overland content and especially questing but I also like to progress. Im not an elite player but I like to do vet DLC and trials when i got the time. The problem is that a casual but skilled player ends up having nothing to do because 90% of the content gives you nothing because you progressed to a certain level.

Good to know.
I know that feel when a toy brings no joy another day, and the Christmas tree toys look fake after 40+
I don't agree that overland gives you nothing. Lead system, collections, events make it replayable partially for all the groups of players. But here you got the point. What should be the thing you got from overland to make you say "I've just got something from it"? What a reward?

Just to clarify. I see the half of posts here plays a game "We are many, make what we want". And the most of this thread goes to battle "Who's crowd is bigger". That's a funny game, but imagine what people would get if they won. They would persuade 10 more people that everybody wants vet overland. So they would sit here and think "We are many, but evil ZoS won't do what we want". Trust me, more frustration and despair are not the best reward

On the other hand we have ZoS who clarified a bit why the overland is in the current state, and why vet difficulty would not work by their opinion. Changes are possible, but hardly ever through the shouts "We are many, we pay you money, listen to us". Those guys are pure realists. They know who pay them money and what things make a cash flow
Changes are possible when we sold them an idea, how to sell more content to people. And the bestseller idea is about selling the same content without changes in it. Lead system is a good sample. People do the overland again without any changes in locations, mobs, mechanics.
So you need only two parts of idea:
- what people would get from vet overland that makes them massively play it
- which way to organize it with minimal changes in current locations
You have this pair - you have a chance to sell it to ZoS for free... sorry, for future vet overland you wish, for sure.

Elsonso

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

This thread has got 22 pages, this topic cames back to the forum every month.

I think that is a clear sign to ZOS to do something about it.

1. There are many players who like the current state of overland - let them have it the way it is.
2. There are many players who think that the current state of overland is too easy which makes it boring to play - give them something to make it playable for them again.

I don't feel like the second group is a minority that shouldn't be adressed. Also I don't agree that there is nothing that can be done about it. There were many good ideas here, that ZOS can work with.

You say that they arent going to do anything because there is no profit in it? A huge company is getting response from its clients that there is a flaw in their product, and they just keep producing new content with the same flaw? The more satisfied customers ZOS has, the more money they make. Also think about all those players who don't buy the newest chapter, because there is nothing in it for them.

Things are a lot more complex than people make them out to be in the forum.

No matter what we think in here, we are only a small community and do not necessarily represent the cross section of active players in the game. There may be people outside of the forum who agree, but we cannot gauge how deep that pool goes. We are a flea trying to gauge the size of the dog.

ZOS has shown that they will do what appears to be expensive things for a minority of players, but they obviously can't do everything that every minority group of players wants done. Overland veteran is going to be expensive, and they are apparently not doing it.

Rich has made it pretty clear that the overland difficulty was discussed within the studio. That means it is not a "flaw in their product", but a deliberate design. Right now, ZOS seems to be happy with where it is, and it sounds like they have the numbers to back that up.

If the numbers change, maybe ZOS will be less happy and more willing to spend the money on veteran overland. They certainly know there are people who want it.

SilverBride

What I take away from these threads is that some players are burned out, and think that more difficult overland will fix that. And some of these players think that if veteran overland had better drops it would make everyone else want it too, because better loot. Neither is correct.

jaws343

SilverBride wrote: »

What I take away from these threads is that some players are burned out, and think that more difficult overland will fix that. And some of these players think that if veteran overland had better drops it would make everyone else want it too, because better loot. Neither is correct.

Yeah, I just can't see how players already burned out on content are going to find repeating the same quests they've already done enjoyable just because they are slightly more difficult. I say this from the perspective of having completed every quest in the game and clearing every single zone and most achievements. I like the simple and relatively easy overland because most of my time in the overland is spent on some grind or another. Not looking for a challenge, just passing time while waiting in BG queues or farming mats/drops during events. I can't see how entering X delve for the 100th time is suddenly going to become enjoyable because a random add now stuns me when before it didn't. Oh no, whatever will my end game character who can solo vet dungeon bosses do when that overland add stuns me in the slightly more challenging overland that the devs wasted resources on?

colossalvoids

Elsonso wrote: »

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

This thread has got 22 pages, this topic cames back to the forum every month.

I think that is a clear sign to ZOS to do something about it.

1. There are many players who like the current state of overland - let them have it the way it is.
2. There are many players who think that the current state of overland is too easy which makes it boring to play - give them something to make it playable for them again.

I don't feel like the second group is a minority that shouldn't be adressed. Also I don't agree that there is nothing that can be done about it. There were many good ideas here, that ZOS can work with.

You say that they arent going to do anything because there is no profit in it? A huge company is getting response from its clients that there is a flaw in their product, and they just keep producing new content with the same flaw? The more satisfied customers ZOS has, the more money they make. Also think about all those players who don't buy the newest chapter, because there is nothing in it for them.

Rich has made it pretty clear that the overland difficulty was discussed within the studio. That means it is not a "flaw in their product", but a deliberate design.

No one is arguing that really, the "flaw" people are pointing at is not engaging overland in action game, anti climatic endings of quests and so forth. Some of those issues could be addressed without any radical solutions. Some people proposed possible solutions, at least partial ones like instanced bosses having a difficulty setting same as you walk in dungeons with a veteran switch in a group menu or as some other player proposed a challenge banner before the very end to actually make end of the year/dlc/chapter boss to feel appropriate and not as a sad joke. Some pointed to trash NPC reaction times and "do nothing" phases which also could be addressed or tweaked at least a bit, yet again at least in instanced quest parts according to players group difficulty setting.

No harm in pushing for something not really affecting other part of a playerbase or brainstorming how to make it possible so the feedback could be actually usable and maybe even considered for the future.

Iron_Warrior

It's sad how over the years different parts of the community are getting pushed aside and this "amazing" community is ok with it and even supports it. First pvp players pushed aside and labeled as "minority" then the hardcore pve players pushed aside so now we have patches like dragonhold and deadlands that don't offer anything to them and normal content that gives more or less the same rewards as vet but a lot easier, now it's questors turn to get called "minority". Of course they are minority because when you ignore parts of your playerbase they will start to leave the game and remaining ones will become the minority. Who is next? Dungeon runners? People that do zone dailies? Let's just turn this game into a housing simulator to appease the "majority"

SilverBride

colossalvoids wrote: »

No harm in pushing for something not really affecting other part of a playerbase or brainstorming how to make it possible so the feedback could be actually usable and maybe even considered for the future.

This would negatively affect all players, i.e. splitting the playerbase, too difficult for new players, unfair to those who aren't geared for veteran mobs, better drops for those who are, taking manpower and time away from issues that would benefit all players.

Pushing for this with multiple threads is harmful to the forums because the only thing it accomplishes is to cause conflict among the posters. This particular thread even introduced a link to a Twitch stream with an explanation by Rich Lambert yet many won't accept his answer.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin May we please get an official answer to this?

Hurbster

Well, if people are burned out they should take a break.

summ0004

I havent posted before about this but feel I should voice my opinion on the matter.

I actually agree that the overland has become far too trivial with some of the mobs and it definately ruins any sense of immersion in the game, and as a result I have not purchased any of the last two expansions as it represents poor value for money if I cant enjoy playing through the open world and quests which is a shame. I also know of plenty of people in the game who also share this same experience and do not do overland as a result and only focus on pvp or just trials and dungeons.

I would like to point out that I am just an average player, and the hardest content I do is vet dungeons(non-DLC) and some normal trials, and even I find the overland stupidly easy to the point of frustation, so it must be even worse for high elite players. In fact even my 8 year old daughter plays casually doing the quests etc, and she doesnt do anything else but button mash and doesnt understand dots and weaving and even she finds it really easy. So there is a problem here.

Overland is the major part of the game and should be enjoyable for everyone, and people should not be forced into running the same few trials and vet dungeons on repeat to get any satisfaction out of the combat in the game. I know some of the issue is powercreep with champion points, but I have just tried making a new char with no CPs and got to level 20 wearing grey and green items and still havent managed to die yet.

The game has combat abilities and upto 10 skills, but they seem almost useless to use in overland because of the braindead mobs being killed too easily. They have lots of exciting armour sets that again seem almost pointless.

The whole point of an RPG is too develop your character and make builds using different abilities, leveling up and trying out new gear to overcome challenges, and unfortunately this games overland does not allow that progression in most instances.

These things kill the immersion in the game. People now have the option of companions to make it even easier, and it should not be a big ask for people to at least try and learn the basics of the game. If you can put out 5K dps that is more than enough to destroy any normal overland mobs currently, and even my 8 year old daughter can manage that with little to no understanding of the game.

I dont know the best way of fixing this problem, but I believe it is harming the retention of players.

Maya_Nur

Blood_again wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

As has been said many times, rewards should become worth trying. Currently they are underwhelming even for an easy overland. When I save the king or even a whole kingdom, there must be something more than a set piece or 147 gold. I suggest more gold (5-50k as quest chain goes to it's climax), houseguest/companion (character who took a participation in the story), coffer with rare materials (not 10 ancestral silk like it was in my bounties of BW cascade coffer). If there would be a reputation system (with a city mangement or something like that) I would suggest a decent amount of RP.

Great! Thank you for the ideas. That the thing which ZoS at least could work.
You told about the quest rewards. So you see the vet overland like totally changed locations in a separate layer. Can it be implemented with the buff/toggle without separation? What do you think?

I'm glad to hear an appreciation There are two reasons why self-febuff is far more worst idea then toggle:

1. Humans psychologically need a sense of progression, a feeling of growing (that's why RPGs have leveling systems at all) so self-debuff is like God pretending human, while toggle mod is more like a God went for a challenge. By the way, increasing mob's stats won't work. As CP5 said and others said previously, we need smarter enemies which DESIRE to kill us.
2. Playing with others but with a debuff upon a character just doesn't make sense because low-level characters already have an invisible buff so they can rival an 160CP overland. Making newbies strong and veterans weak is just rediculous.

Toggle also implies (would be nice at least) an oportunity to replay all the quests once again. I have completed zones' stories years ago, but finish them again with another character is not for me. Not only because I like my main, but also because gameplay is not engaging now.