Trader swap issue - EU server

anitajoneb17_ESO

therift wrote: »

So... should all those players who created Necromancers and played without buying Elsweyr be banned permanently?

ZoS stated they would not ban accounts that exploited Necromancer, for obvious reasons.

ZoS isn't going to chase down the bonus gold, nor are they going to create further chaos by banning GMs.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that there is little ZoS can do at this point.

There will be a patch, some sort of vague explanation, and that will be it.

This is a video game, after all.

"Free" necromancers don't do anyone any harm.
The duplicated gold in such huge amounts is a real problem though.
We can live with a week of no sales and empty traders, but the extra gold will mess up the PC/EU economy for months and months, if not forever. That's a big issue and I hope ZOS will do what needs to be done about it. After all, it's not impossible and not such a big deal, the amounts are trackable.

Also the general performance issue, especially the sunday evening lag, whether linked to trader flip or not, is becoming a central problem and should really be addressed efficiently, not soon(tm) but soon-soonish.

Dont_do_drugs

Who would have ever guessed, I totally agree with u.

shaielzafine

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

therift wrote: »

So... should all those players who created Necromancers and played without buying Elsweyr be banned permanently?

ZoS stated they would not ban accounts that exploited Necromancer, for obvious reasons.

ZoS isn't going to chase down the bonus gold, nor are they going to create further chaos by banning GMs.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that there is little ZoS can do at this point.

There will be a patch, some sort of vague explanation, and that will be it.

This is a video game, after all.

"Free" necromancers don't do anyone any harm.
The duplicated gold in such huge amounts is a real problem though.
We can live with a week of no sales and empty traders, but the extra gold will mess up the PC/EU economy for months and months, if not forever. That's a big issue and I hope ZOS will do what needs to be done about it. After all, it's not impossible and not such a big deal, the amounts are trackable.

Also the general performance issue, especially the sunday evening lag, whether linked to trader flip or not, is becoming a central problem and should really be addressed efficiently, not soon(tm) but soon-soonish.

Guess what, those new necromancer's can go to PvP with it and affect other people. It doesn't necessarily cause harm, but it does show us how ZOS handles things when they go iffy. The message being, it's fine to do an exploit or use a bug to get nice things as long as it's done before it's hotfixed. Same way they were fine with guilds going through walls not rendering in PvP and didn't ban those exploiting known bugs in Cyrodiil. They will likely be fine with the people spending their 1billion gold as well. Do you really think they will do a rollback? In the meantime, the guilds that got massive amounts of gold will have spent it, traded it, and moved it around.

And as for your server performance concerns, ZOS gave us a mid 2020 date range. This is after Matt Firor already said EU & NA server improvements back in April, which got moved back to later this year, and now here we go 2020. Most problems used to only be really bad in Cyrodiil but I guess there's just poor performance all over the place now. They can't even get log ins to work correctly or guild traders.

anitajoneb17_ESO

shaielzafine wrote: »

Guess what, those new necromancer's can go to PvP with it and affect other people. It doesn't necessarily cause harm, but it does show us how ZOS handles things when they go iffy.

The problem with the "free" necromancers isn't that they were necromancers, but that they were "free". As far as I know, a "free" necromancer isn't more powerful in PvP than any other necromancer. So no, the "free" necromancers don't harm anyone. The huge gold duplication affects everyone, hugely, for a long, long, long time.

shaielzafine wrote: »

And as for your server performance concerns, ZOS gave us a mid 2020 date range. This is after Matt Firor already said EU & NA server improvements back in April, which got moved back to later this year, and now here we go 2020. Most problems used to only be really bad in Cyrodiil but I guess there's just poor performance all over the place now. They can't even get log ins to work correctly or guild traders.

and... ? suggestions ?

SirAndy

daemonios wrote: »

ZOS did it on a Sunday when there was likely nobody around to act if necessary

We have an unwritten rule in the industry:
"Never ever release any software and/or updates on or right before a weekend"

That means your patch/update release window should really only be Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.
Might squeeze in Thursday if your are *very* confident about the release.

Friday, Saturday and Sunday are a huge NO, Just don't do it ...

Varana

But they did release the update on a Monday.
It's just the effects of the update didn't come into play until Sunday.

---

As for banning and stuff - to be honest, I don't trust them to even know which guilds were affected and how.
The whole system collapsed entirely - guilds got multiple "trader won" messages (!) while the trader they actually won was available for hire.
I'd bet a crate of Red Rye Beer that once they start sorting guilds that got refunded more than they shoud have, they will get false positives. Because the system had lots of multiple, duplicate, mutually exclusive, redundant, and nonsensical data.

SirAndy

Varana wrote: »

But they did release the update on a Monday.
It's just the effects of the update didn't come into play until Sunday.

Don't do anything that could fundamentally disturb your whole game on a frickin Sunday.

It's really the same thing, the guild trader switch *is* an update to the game, and a big one at that ...

reoskit

SirAndy wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

ZOS did it on a Sunday when there was likely nobody around to act if necessary

We have an unwritten rule in the industry:
"Never ever release any software and/or updates on or right before a weekend"

That means your patch/update release window should really only be Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.
Might squeeze in Thursday if your are *very* confident about the release.

Friday, Saturday and Sunday are a huge NO, Just don't do it ...

In no way do I defend what happened last night. It's absolutely appalling and inexcusable. So, don't shoot the messenger on the next part.

I'm only here to clarify that the patch/update happened last Monday. We had access to multibidding through the week. Trader flip is on Sunday night - which is when the impact of Monday's change was felt.

This change was only ever going to be felt on a Sunday night; just one of a hundred reasons why so many GMs were vehemently opposed to this untested/untestable system.

DonRavello

While everybody is complaining in a more or less constructive way, it is strange that almost no posts on this topic are shown in the Bugs section. Out of curiosity: Did the affected guild leaders & officers submit /bug messages?

I know of several guilds that
a) "won" their trader, lost the money for it, but did not get the spot => poor suckers
b) "lost" their trader bids, but got huge amounts of money back, much more than initially spent => lucky losers
c) "won" their trader, lost the money for it, got correct refunds and were able to hire "their" trader for 10K => ESO pros

Each scenario not working as intended.

idk

marius_buys wrote: »

Thorvarg wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, just letting you know that we are working on a resolution to this issue from yesterday. More details to come as we continue to investigate, stay tuned...

I think it is well understandable who has received excessive repayments. These guilds / guild leaders, of course, the sum must be deducted again. Once they have spent this money, and thus exploited intentionally, they should be banned permanently and their assets confiscated.

...and what about the loss of income due to insufficient testing?

I agree. It is sad so few players take seriously testing updates on the PTS which is the only way a change like this can be tested properly. The lack of interest is a serious flaw in testing such changes and you are right to call out the player base for the poor testing that was done. Maybe next time we will get more interest and more will be tested.

SirAndy

reoskit wrote: »

I'm only here to clarify that the patch/update happened last Monday. We had access to multibidding through the week. Trader flip is on Sunday night - which is when the impact of Monday's change was felt.

See my post above ...

Guild Trader switch *is* a game update and should not happen on a day when nobody is working at ZOS.

SammiSakura

tbh it is impossible to test this situation with the same issues as the live server. it takes months to build a successful guild, that most gm's spend all their time doing. we dont have the time to do it again on the pts too

reoskit

idk wrote: »

marius_buys wrote: »

Thorvarg wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, just letting you know that we are working on a resolution to this issue from yesterday. More details to come as we continue to investigate, stay tuned...

I think it is well understandable who has received excessive repayments. These guilds / guild leaders, of course, the sum must be deducted again. Once they have spent this money, and thus exploited intentionally, they should be banned permanently and their assets confiscated.

...and what about the loss of income due to insufficient testing?

I agree. It is sad so few players take seriously testing updates on the PTS which is the only way a change like this can be tested properly. The lack of interest is a serious flaw in testing such changes and you are right to call out the player base for the poor testing that was done. Maybe next time we will get more interest and more will be tested.

Oh hell no!

You absolutely CANNOT blame this catastrophe on the players. Plenty of us stood up and said the load would NEVER be replicated on the PTS. What absolute insane nonsense to victim shame the playerbase for ZOS' failings.

Just. No.

SantieClaws

Well it approaches the time of the sleep for many of those affected now.

If you do not speak soon then this one hopes you are ready for the reaction which will occur largely when you yourselves may be asleep and thus on a largely unwatched forum ...

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Gariele

SammiSakura wrote: »

tbh it is impossible to test this situation with the same issues as the live server. it takes months to build a successful guild, that most gm's spend all their time doing. we dont have the time to do it again on the pts too

Preach

Mitrenga

I have no words.

Dusk_Coven

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

NA seems to have gone fine. All traders had guilds right after the switch. My trade guilds are listed as having their usual traders.

we lost all our bids and got refunded the right amount of money.

Well, then most probably it's not a bug, but server performance and poor PC EU simply was too overloaded to chew it all properly.

And there's this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6283270/#Comment_6283270

So maybe in part the players did it to themselves with the use of AddOns. Which are allowed but technically not ZOS's responsibility.
The fact that ZOS is trying to accommodate AddOns doesn't make it their responsibility either.
Might be time to revisit turning off guild history reads and introducing a global market like SWTOR or FFXIV again.

reoskit

And we're back to blaming addons. Fabulous.

Allow me to remind you: the last time the guild history went insane and borked the game, ZOS blamed addons.

And the exact same issues happened on consoles... which do not have addons.

The reminder is required since ZOS unpinned their own thread, despite us requesting that the thread remained pinned as the issues had not been resolved.

But sure. Addons/players did this.

Edit: missing word.

chess1ukb16_ESO

Not believing this is caused by addons.

Most high volume trade guilds did not win a kiosk or if they hired one its in a quiet zone so overall sales are much lower than normal and they have guild history turned off for anything before the last login anyway.

This is just a clutching at straws desperate assault to deflect blame for spaghetti code in their core engine that has been exacerbated by Guild finder and other developments implemented with good intent but poor execution for whatever reason.

Aurielle

Reading the forums after basic patches like

Varana

LOL at trying to pass this sad excuse of a reaction* for an actual solution.
At that point, disabling the outfit system, turning off crafting, or nerfing sorcs would've probably produced the same result - a tiny bit less server load.

Also LOL at trying really hard to auction off that dead horse again.

*Not hating on Gina (only a bit).

Dosuul

7 hours later, we're still staying tuned.

Arrodisia

reoskit wrote: »

idk wrote: »

marius_buys wrote: »

Thorvarg wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, just letting you know that we are working on a resolution to this issue from yesterday. More details to come as we continue to investigate, stay tuned...

I think it is well understandable who has received excessive repayments. These guilds / guild leaders, of course, the sum must be deducted again. Once they have spent this money, and thus exploited intentionally, they should be banned permanently and their assets confiscated.

...and what about the loss of income due to insufficient testing?

I agree. It is sad so few players take seriously testing updates on the PTS which is the only way a change like this can be tested properly. The lack of interest is a serious flaw in testing such changes and you are right to call out the player base for the poor testing that was done. Maybe next time we will get more interest and more will be tested.

Oh hell no!

You absolutely CANNOT blame this catastrophe on the players. Plenty of us stood up and said the load would NEVER be replicated on the PTS. What absolute insane nonsense to victim shame the playerbase for ZOS' failings.

Just. No.

Exactly I agree x 10.

SammiSakura

Aurielle wrote: »

Reading the forums after basic patches like

this isnt from a basic patch though, its due to the implementation of complete new bidding system

SammiSakura

@ZOS_GinaBruno surely it is approaching the end of the working day in the US, while many here in EU are heading to bed. Can we have ANY update at all. ANYTHING?! This lack of communication is highly disturbing *insert Darth Vader meme*

MartiniDaniels

Dosuul wrote: »

7 hours later, we're still staying tuned.

Arthg

idk wrote: »

I agree. It is sad so few players take seriously testing updates on the PTS which is the only way a change like this can be tested properly. The lack of interest is a serious flaw in testing such changes and you are right to call out the player base for the poor testing that was done. Maybe next time we will get more interest and more will be tested.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

And there's this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6283270/#Comment_6283270

So maybe in part the players did it to themselves with the use of AddOns. Which are allowed but technically not ZOS's responsibility.
The fact that ZOS is trying to accommodate AddOns doesn't make it their responsibility either.
Might be time to revisit turning off guild history reads and introducing a global market like SWTOR or FFXIV again.

Staring at these posts in disbelief.

Not only do they condone crass incompetence, they also add insult to injury - sure, we the players are responsible for the epic fustercluck currently unfolding on the EU server, sure.

No wonder the track record of ZOS fixing stuff is so appalling.

martinhpb16_ESO

[img][/img]via Imgflip Meme Generator

Arcon2825

SammiSakura wrote: »

tbh it is impossible to test this situation with the same issues as the live server. it takes months to build a successful guild, that most gm's spend all their time doing. we dont have the time to do it again on the pts too

Of course this situation can be tested properly, do you think for every load and performance test you need to set up thousands of guilds on the pts?

I really think ZoS is missing the expertise to set up valid test scenarios, but that’s just a matter of bad QA. There are several ways to test this kind of stuff, the PTS should always be the last line of defense.

888and888

Arcon2825 wrote: »

... but that’s just a matter of bad QA. There are several ways to test this kind of stuff, the PTS should always be the last line of defense.

You are right, but please do not forget that you are talking to ZoS, which clearly has no idea about how to run a service.
I would suggest, therefore, to start with something basics, like explaining what "QA" means (Hint: it's not "Questions and Answers")