Organized Raids This Patch

Joy_Division

LeifErickson wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

I mean what I said. I see you don't agree, but do you really not understand what I said?

Do you really not understand what he was asking for? He wanted further elaboration, as your statement was shockingly absurd, to put it mildly.

I like how everyone who is saying this is so shocking has no experience doing both roles. I play both solo and in full raids. If I'm playing stam support on my sorc for a group. I am using buffs to protect myself and my group so that we can face overwhelming odds. This is the same end goal as playing solo, facing overwhelming odds.

The kit you build for both is quite different, but you have similar tactics, movement, buffs, debuffs, ultimate use, timing, los. Those who believe it's just spamming rapids sounds like the inexperienced people who come and complain about 1vX'ers spamming steel tornado. I may be relying on my group members for heals and damage, but that is similar to stacking vigors when you go from solo to small man. You add a person, you try and take on more numbers because your group has the heals and damage for it. On an individual basis you have the same number of skills available to use in both instances. Your job is to make sure you are making good use of them all to maximize your effectiveness in both instances. I put an equal amount of effort in both cases. If I make a mistake in both case I can be punished. If I'm not being punished when I make a mistake I'm not actively working towards my goal because I'm obviously not fighting overwhelming odds then. The same can be said about playing solo. If I get cc'ed solo and the opposing enemy or enemies dont kill me, I'm not actively working toward my goal of facing overwhelming odds, and I'm just farming inexperienced and low level players.

Personally I enjoy soloing and bgs more than playing in a group because of impact. When I'm in a larger group I feel my impact is less. When solo it is all about me.

It's great that yall have such strong opinions and passion about this game, but dont forget that the best educator is experience. So maybe give it a try before you bash it.

I do have experience. One night I joined a VE raid just because as a mag sorc. Never in my whole time playing this game have I gotten so many kills and won every fight thrown at us and gotten so much ap without ever dying. By the end of the night I was considering changing my name to Second Negate because that's all I really was. It was easy. I didn't even have a group build or really any good experience beforehand yet was instantly successful. I'm sorry but if you really think being a rapids spammer takes the same amount of skill as soloing then you must not be fighting that outnumbered solo.

I have no experience raiding with VE, but I did raid at that time with Decibel who fought against VE. You would have been a great liability for VE if you fought against Decibel while you were in that group. I can also say neither VE nor Decibel won every engagement against each other. I will say nothing about how out numbered I fight, as I dont feel like I need to prove anything to you. I have a large amount of experience in both arenas unlike you who has dipped his toe in and made large generalizations.

I have no idea how detrimental I would be against a Decibel group, but I will take your word for it. The point I was trying to make is someone who has never 1vxed before can't just go out into Cyro and be successful at 1vx. I never ball grouped before and yet our group never lost a fight. While yes I may have been carried, someone who goes out to 1vx doesn't even get that luxury.

You said you see me the same as someone crying for nerfs yet all I did was disagree with you that 1vx and rapids role require the same skill. I'm sorry that my different opinion makes you feel that way.

I guess I didn't do a good enough job to try to change your mind with that statement (or Yiko) but you didn't for me either. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.

You don;t think that you being in the top 5% of all PvPers playing in one of the strongest guilds in the game at that time had anything to do with your experience that night in VE?

I think if you joined a more middling guild, I won't call any out specifically but I'm confident you can find one, you'll find your group PvP experience *dramatically* different. I suspect you will spend a lot of time being one of the last ones alive, getting chased by 30+ reds, looking for a place to put down a camp.

*****

If playing in a group was so easy, why are so many of them, to put it kindly, inconsistent? Why are so many players, to be frank, extraordinarily average at it? The fact of the matter is there is a very discernible tiers of skill among the PC NA guilds and a higher tier guild will 99% of the time beat a lower tier one, often suffering zero deaths. That can only be the case if these fights were decided by the very thing many of the people who dislike groups continuously downplay or outright deny exist: discernible skillful play in groups.

Vincelex

#rapidsiseasy
#onebuttonspammer

WaltherCarraway

#revolvingaroundanonsolidobjectInheavyarmorstaminachardoingoneveeiksrequirespooptonofskillz

Satiar

Vincelex wrote: »

#rapidsiseasy
#onebuttonspammer

Either way, the circumstances that made rapids necessary are the real problem. Shouldn't have to dedicate a player or 2 just to make sure you can move.

ONE patch of bombard spam and I ragequit the game for six months, I can't imagine what it feels like now lol

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
Raid awareness - Only raid
Supporting allies - raid skill
peeling damage - raid skill
group communication - raid skill
Cancelling and weaving - both
Map knowledge - both
Resource management - Both
Buff upkeep - both
Situational awareness - both
enemy prediction - both

what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

You missed:
Proper use of LoS
Proper use of defense mechanisms
Proper use of heals

Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

Proper use of LoS - both
Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
Proper use of heals - both

anything else? @templesus

templesus

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
Raid awareness - Only raid
Supporting allies - raid skill
peeling damage - raid skill
group communication - raid skill
Cancelling and weaving - both
Map knowledge - both
Resource management - Both
Buff upkeep - both
Situational awareness - both
enemy prediction - both

what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

You missed:
Proper use of LoS
Proper use of defense mechanisms
Proper use of heals

Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

Proper use of LoS - both
Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
Proper use of heals - both

anything else? @templesus

Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

Yiko

templesus wrote: »

You missed:
Proper use of LoS
Proper use of defense mechanisms
Proper use of heals

Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

Yeah, I was going to mention LoS, active defenses like Block and Roll Dodge, self-healing, SNARE/ROOT REMOVAL, the differences between resource management in a group and resource management solo, etc. The combo timing thing was definitely underplayed IMO. The list seemed pretty biased and not really well fleshed out, like "raid awareness - raid only." Where's my 1vX awareness - 1vX only?

frozywozy wrote: »

Yiko I don't know what you want from me. I have never mentioned that running a stam support role in a medium to large group was more skilful than 1vxing. I have always given credit to any playstyle.

Meh, ZOS removed my comment where I said that you didn't substantiate your claims and didn't respond to a relevant thought/question. I was questioning your downplaying of a couple other 1vX players' and my experience (or lack-thereof) in 24 mans and the implications that it somehow negated our capability of having a reasonable enough opinion or understanding of a Stam support character's role in a 24 man, to the point where we weren't qualified to say that it takes less skill than 1vX gameplay. Basically, in response to "You have never done this (or done it well), so you cannot understand it," I tried to make the argument that we could understand it well enough to say that 1vX is harder, and I wanted your opinion on that. However, you've since seemed to demonstrate that you're of the opinion that successful high level 1vX is harder than playing the Stamina support role, so I don't think that I want anything from you anymore.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
Raid awareness - Only raid
Supporting allies - raid skill
peeling damage - raid skill
group communication - raid skill
Cancelling and weaving - both
Map knowledge - both
Resource management - Both
Buff upkeep - both
Situational awareness - both
enemy prediction - both

what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

You missed:
Proper use of LoS
Proper use of defense mechanisms
Proper use of heals

Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

Proper use of LoS - both
Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
Proper use of heals - both

anything else? @templesus

Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

Edit:
@Yiko SNARE/ROOT REMOVAL, the differences between resource management in a group and resource management solo

I mean we're discussing stam support right? snare root removal was kind of its primary goal, Resource management for a stam char solo? you mean heavy attack and burst windows vs constant pressure on your resources as a full support role with active management and a little bit of assistance from orbs in raid?

templesus

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
Raid awareness - Only raid
Supporting allies - raid skill
peeling damage - raid skill
group communication - raid skill
Cancelling and weaving - both
Map knowledge - both
Resource management - Both
Buff upkeep - both
Situational awareness - both
enemy prediction - both

what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

You missed:
Proper use of LoS
Proper use of defense mechanisms
Proper use of heals

Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

Proper use of LoS - both
Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
Proper use of heals - both

anything else? @templesus

Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down. https://youtu.be/PFvFKFWL8V8

We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

frozywozy

Yiko wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Yiko I don't know what you want from me. I have never mentioned that running a stam support role in a medium to large group was more skilful than 1vxing. I have always given credit to any playstyle.

Meh, ZOS removed my comment where I said that you didn't substantiate your claims and didn't respond to a relevant thought/question. I was questioning your downplaying of a couple other 1vX players' and my experience (or lack-thereof) in 24 mans and the implications that it somehow negated our capability of having a reasonable enough opinion or understanding of a Stam support character's role in a 24 man, to the point where we weren't qualified to say that it takes less skill than 1vX gameplay. Basically, in response to "You have never done this (or done it well), so you cannot understand it," I tried to make the argument that we could understand it well enough to say that 1vX is harder, and I wanted your opinion on that. However, you've since seemed to demonstrate that you're of the opinion that successful high level 1vX is harder than playing the Stamina support role, so I don't think that I want anything from you anymore.

I will say it again. Don't ask me a question regarding something you can't quote.

Please direct me to the post where I downgraded such 1vX player and then we can continue this conversation. So far all I can read in your text is assumptions and words I have never mentioned. I will even go further than that, I will quote you nice things I have said about 1vX in this same thread. I will even go further than that and link a post where I mentioned that I believe stam support is the easiest role I have experience myself.

1-4vXing by definition means that you do an effort to get away from your faction to get your own fights.

Secondly, while I agree that a stam support is the easiest role I have played so far in such group

Same for both. Comment #69

Most people I have seen speaking in these forums who play in groups of 12-16 have never claimed that one playstyle is harder or more skillful than another. It is simply different. Groups can decide to isolate certain roles on certain players while people playing in smaller groups have to do everything by themselves as it was described in this thread. Is one worse than the other? I don't believe so. Fighting more people should require certain players to make sure certain roles are covered, especially during intense battles because if one of those role fail for a quick second it's all over.

Quick example : most people 1vXing don't face 15 balistas / meatbags / scatters firing at them at once so they don't require constant purges on themselves. If everyone would have purge on their bar to cover every role without any assignment, how would you make sure we have constant purge while also dealing damage and providing ccs as we retreat?

Communication is much easier to achieve between 4 players than it is to achieve between 16. This is one of the reason why we assign certain roles to certain players to make sure that we don't miss those crucial elements when fighting a large amount of people who can literally kill you in one second without any aoe cap.

Vincelex

Satiar wrote: »

Vincelex wrote: »

#rapidsiseasy
#onebuttonspammer

Either way, the circumstances that made rapids necessary are the real problem. Shouldn't have to dedicate a player or 2 just to make sure you can move.

ONE patch of bombard spam and I ragequit the game for six months, I can't imagine what it feels like now lol

It feels like necromancer is bout to have some snare removal built into it

Adenoma

Vincelex wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Vincelex wrote: »

#rapidsiseasy
#onebuttonspammer

Either way, the circumstances that made rapids necessary are the real problem. Shouldn't have to dedicate a player or 2 just to make sure you can move.

ONE patch of bombard spam and I ragequit the game for six months, I can't imagine what it feels like now lol

It feels like necromancer is bout to have some snare removal built into it

God I hope so. Ideally, both magicka and stamina sustainable options. It's a struggle to do wings for a stamDK, but trivial for magDK.

TBois

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
Raid awareness - Only raid
Supporting allies - raid skill
peeling damage - raid skill
group communication - raid skill
Cancelling and weaving - both
Map knowledge - both
Resource management - Both
Buff upkeep - both
Situational awareness - both
enemy prediction - both

what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

You missed:
Proper use of LoS
Proper use of defense mechanisms
Proper use of heals

Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

Proper use of LoS - both
Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
Proper use of heals - both

anything else? @templesus

Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down. https://youtu.be/PFvFKFWL8V8

We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

I understand your perspective a bit more, but this isnt a high level raid in my mind. Maybe @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO thinks otherwise?

montiferus

TBois wrote: »

I understand your perspective a bit more, but this isnt a high level raid in my mind.

I watched some of your solo clips. Helps me understand your perspective more as well. This isn't high level solo play in my mind.

Yiko

frozywozy wrote: »

I will say it again. Don't ask me a question regarding something you can't quote.

Please direct me to the post where I downgraded such 1vX player and then we can continue this conversation.

Downplayed 1vX players' experiences in 24 mans* (not the players themselves), and sure. All from that very same #69 post.

frozywozy wrote: »

I have been following this thread without saying anything so far but I gotta step in at this point. I have seen alot of people assume and declare with certainty that they know exactly how an organized group runs and what a stam support should accomplish in such group.

When they got asked what kind of experience they had, they simply said that they ran once with a ballgroup and got a ton of kills easy mode (being carried or not). Some of them even went all in and described what is a stamina support role for them.

First of all, it does not mean that you played once or twice or 10times in a ballgroup, got easy wins everytime, but then tried to 1vX and died very quickly that one is easier than the other. It's a question of how you challenge yourself and who you are fighting exactly.

You never backed up your "declare with certainty that they know exactly how an organized group runs" by the way.. "First of all" in this format demonstrates an abruptness or beginning in line of thought, which in a circumstance like this usually indicates finding fault with something preceding it.

frozywozy wrote: »

Your comparaison and experience in a ballgroup has no impact in this thread.

frozywozy wrote: »

Before assuming make sure that you have experienced and challenged yourself against real opponents.

Okay, that should be good enough for now. Maybe I'm just reading into your words and phrasing too much?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Edit:
@Yiko SNARE/ROOT REMOVAL, the differences between resource management in a group and resource management solo

I mean we're discussing stam support right? snare root removal was kind of its primary goal, Resource management for a stam char solo? you mean heavy attack and burst windows vs constant pressure on your resources as a full support role with active management and a little bit of assistance from orbs in raid?

If you want to use Retreating Maneuver in 1vX for slow/snare removal, that's your prerogative. It's not my recommendation, though.

There's literal restore resource mechanics differences, like heavy attacking. Also defensive mechanics that eat stam like Block and Roll Dodge will probably be more prevalent. Self-healing will be more of a strain on stamina. Using Rapids for snare/root removal will be eating up quite a bit of stam, haha. There's build differences to accommodate higher resource strain when outnumbered. Player's stats/defenses will have to be adjusted when solo in order to reach a survivable state. Abilities that are not needed for group play can be replaced with abilities that impact resource regeneration. Etc etc

Those are the differences I was referring to. I don't super want to continue more on this, as I think there are just too many differences between playstyles and trains of thought. You left out some of the most crucial aspects/skills of 1vX in the initial listing, and I don't want to nitpick the differences and overlap between things like "Raid awareness, Supporting allies, peeling damage."

ShadowProc

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

I mean what I said. I see you don't agree, but do you really not understand what I said?

Do you really not understand what he was asking for? He wanted further elaboration, as your statement was shockingly absurd, to put it mildly.

I like how everyone who is saying this is so shocking has no experience doing both roles. I play both solo and in full raids. If I'm playing stam support on my sorc for a group. I am using buffs to protect myself and my group so that we can face overwhelming odds. This is the same end goal as playing solo, facing overwhelming odds.

The kit you build for both is quite different, but you have similar tactics, movement, buffs, debuffs, ultimate use, timing, los. Those who believe it's just spamming rapids sounds like the inexperienced people who come and complain about 1vX'ers spamming steel tornado. I may be relying on my group members for heals and damage, but that is similar to stacking vigors when you go from solo to small man. You add a person, you try and take on more numbers because your group has the heals and damage for it. On an individual basis you have the same number of skills available to use in both instances. Your job is to make sure you are making good use of them all to maximize your effectiveness in both instances. I put an equal amount of effort in both cases. If I make a mistake in both case I can be punished. If I'm not being punished when I make a mistake I'm not actively working towards my goal because I'm obviously not fighting overwhelming odds then. The same can be said about playing solo. If I get cc'ed solo and the opposing enemy or enemies dont kill me, I'm not actively working toward my goal of facing overwhelming odds, and I'm just farming inexperienced and low level players.

Personally I enjoy soloing and bgs more than playing in a group because of impact. When I'm in a larger group I feel my impact is less. When solo it is all about me.

It's great that yall have such strong opinions and passion about this game, but dont forget that the best educator is experience. So maybe give it a try before you bash it.

I do have experience. One night I joined a VE raid just because as a mag sorc.

@TBois abort abort lol

Btw I once 1v10'd some random players on NA at 350 cp. 1vX is easy confirmed.

I played large raids for 3 years first and 2 years solo. Is that enough experience to comment?

It is multitudes harder to face more odds the fewer people you have. 1 v 3 is significantly more challenging than 20 v 60.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

TBois wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
Raid awareness - Only raid
Supporting allies - raid skill
peeling damage - raid skill
group communication - raid skill
Cancelling and weaving - both
Map knowledge - both
Resource management - Both
Buff upkeep - both
Situational awareness - both
enemy prediction - both

what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

You missed:
Proper use of LoS
Proper use of defense mechanisms
Proper use of heals

Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

Proper use of LoS - both
Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
Proper use of heals - both

anything else? @templesus

Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down. https://youtu.be/PFvFKFWL8V8

We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

I understand your perspective a bit more, but this isnt a high level raid in my mind. Maybe @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO thinks otherwise?

@templesus

I think this video quite aptly shows the difference in my mind between perspectives of a good raid vs someone who hasn't experienced a good raid .

That isn't to say that you can't have fun in such raids but its comparing completely different things.

Watching the video the first death occurs on an almost uncontested flag to an NPC negate and blazing shield templar who admittedly was emp for the first 2m of the clip so did provide some extra challenge for your group.
(I appreciate it isn't you recording) but I'm sorry to say it doesn't get much better in my eyes. Your group outnumbers the enemies there for the majority if not all of the video.

Its very clear to me that you don't have people playing group roles there based on the performance of the group and if you did and understood these group roles you would have not only secured the tick for yourselves but also cleaned up the keep and the blue raid most likely.
Equally this might be good performance for the PS4 platform, i'd have to watch other PS4 gameplay to find out

LeifErickson

Joy_Division wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

I mean what I said. I see you don't agree, but do you really not understand what I said?

Do you really not understand what he was asking for? He wanted further elaboration, as your statement was shockingly absurd, to put it mildly.

I like how everyone who is saying this is so shocking has no experience doing both roles. I play both solo and in full raids. If I'm playing stam support on my sorc for a group. I am using buffs to protect myself and my group so that we can face overwhelming odds. This is the same end goal as playing solo, facing overwhelming odds.

The kit you build for both is quite different, but you have similar tactics, movement, buffs, debuffs, ultimate use, timing, los. Those who believe it's just spamming rapids sounds like the inexperienced people who come and complain about 1vX'ers spamming steel tornado. I may be relying on my group members for heals and damage, but that is similar to stacking vigors when you go from solo to small man. You add a person, you try and take on more numbers because your group has the heals and damage for it. On an individual basis you have the same number of skills available to use in both instances. Your job is to make sure you are making good use of them all to maximize your effectiveness in both instances. I put an equal amount of effort in both cases. If I make a mistake in both case I can be punished. If I'm not being punished when I make a mistake I'm not actively working towards my goal because I'm obviously not fighting overwhelming odds then. The same can be said about playing solo. If I get cc'ed solo and the opposing enemy or enemies dont kill me, I'm not actively working toward my goal of facing overwhelming odds, and I'm just farming inexperienced and low level players.

Personally I enjoy soloing and bgs more than playing in a group because of impact. When I'm in a larger group I feel my impact is less. When solo it is all about me.

It's great that yall have such strong opinions and passion about this game, but dont forget that the best educator is experience. So maybe give it a try before you bash it.

I do have experience. One night I joined a VE raid just because as a mag sorc. Never in my whole time playing this game have I gotten so many kills and won every fight thrown at us and gotten so much ap without ever dying. By the end of the night I was considering changing my name to Second Negate because that's all I really was. It was easy. I didn't even have a group build or really any good experience beforehand yet was instantly successful. I'm sorry but if you really think being a rapids spammer takes the same amount of skill as soloing then you must not be fighting that outnumbered solo.

I have no experience raiding with VE, but I did raid at that time with Decibel who fought against VE. You would have been a great liability for VE if you fought against Decibel while you were in that group. I can also say neither VE nor Decibel won every engagement against each other. I will say nothing about how out numbered I fight, as I dont feel like I need to prove anything to you. I have a large amount of experience in both arenas unlike you who has dipped his toe in and made large generalizations.

I have no idea how detrimental I would be against a Decibel group, but I will take your word for it. The point I was trying to make is someone who has never 1vxed before can't just go out into Cyro and be successful at 1vx. I never ball grouped before and yet our group never lost a fight. While yes I may have been carried, someone who goes out to 1vx doesn't even get that luxury.

You said you see me the same as someone crying for nerfs yet all I did was disagree with you that 1vx and rapids role require the same skill. I'm sorry that my different opinion makes you feel that way.

I guess I didn't do a good enough job to try to change your mind with that statement (or Yiko) but you didn't for me either. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.

You don;t think that you being in the top 5% of all PvPers playing in one of the strongest guilds in the game at that time had anything to do with your experience that night in VE?

I think if you joined a more middling guild, I won't call any out specifically but I'm confident you can find one, you'll find your group PvP experience *dramatically* different. I suspect you will spend a lot of time being one of the last ones alive, getting chased by 30+ reds, looking for a place to put down a camp.

*****

If playing in a group was so easy, why are so many of them, to put it kindly, inconsistent? Why are so many players, to be frank, extraordinarily average at it? The fact of the matter is there is a very discernible tiers of skill among the PC NA guilds and a higher tier guild will 99% of the time beat a lower tier one, often suffering zero deaths. That can only be the case if these fights were decided by the very thing many of the people who dislike groups continuously downplay or outright deny exist: discernible skillful play in groups.

All my point was that being a "stam support" is not the same difficulty as 1vxing. Since 1vxing at the top level in my opinion is the hardest thing in this game, there is nothing at the same difficulty as it. If it was so easy, there would have been more clips like the one Etaniel got back in 1.5 before a lot of us even started playing the game. The fact is that no one was able to repeat a fight like that (at least on video) because it's almost impossible to do, even in that patch.

And @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO I don't think you have said that you think group play is on par with 1vx specifically but your replies make me think you do feel this way. Correct me if I'm wrong. But if you do and all you need is to strengthen your combo timing and enemy strength assessment (not really even sure what this means as a lot of solo specs don't really get to choose who they fight), why not actually start going out and 1vxing and see how you still feel about it. A 1vxer can't really put together another 15 people all in min maxed builds and start grouping together instantly but a group player can start 1vxing instantly as all they need is themselves. Go out and 1vx and see what you think.

Edirt_seliv

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
Raid awareness - Only raid
Supporting allies - raid skill
peeling damage - raid skill
group communication - raid skill
Cancelling and weaving - both
Map knowledge - both
Resource management - Both
Buff upkeep - both
Situational awareness - both
enemy prediction - both

what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

You missed:
Proper use of LoS
Proper use of defense mechanisms
Proper use of heals

Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

Those three can be added to the both column though, not exclusively 1vX.

And to be fair, peeling damage from iz's list should be a both also. But iz's point is the best made so far, If you guys are going to continue bickering about which is more skillfull blah blah, best start by actually defining those skill and then assessing if they are exclusive to the playstyle.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

LeifErickson wrote: »

And @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO I don't think you have said that you think group play is on par with 1vx specifically but your replies make me think you do feel this way. Correct me if I'm wrong. But if you do and all you need is to strengthen your combo timing and enemy strength assessment (not really even sure what this means as a lot of solo specs don't really get to choose who they fight), why not actually start going out and 1vxing and see how you still feel about it. A 1vxer can't really put together another 15 people all in min maxed builds and start grouping together instantly but a group player can start 1vxing instantly as all they need is themselves. Go out and 1vx and see what you think.

I've said in my replies, I consider good group play and good 1vX to be on par with each other in the sense of their respective gameplay styles and challenges which go along with them.
Simply sticking the best group player in a 1vX scenario will be as effective as sticking the best 1vXer in a group scenario, that is to say its likely both will not perform as well as each other in the respective fields. Generally players who can understand a group scenario well are also capable of being a good 1vXer and vice versa

Additionally almost all solo specs performing well right now can choose their encounters because there is no real tie to an objective other than LoS terrain.
When was the last time you 1vX'd someone who had a decent chance of beating you in a duel?

Compare this to guilds regularly fighting each other in outnumbered situations for example.

I'm glad you think its harder to form a raid of good players than it is to start to 1vX, we can agree on this

frozywozy

Yiko wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I will say it again. Don't ask me a question regarding something you can't quote.

Please direct me to the post where I downgraded such 1vX player and then we can continue this conversation.

Downplayed 1vX players' experiences in 24 mans* (not the players themselves), and sure. All from that very same #69 post.

frozywozy wrote: »

I have been following this thread without saying anything so far but I gotta step in at this point. I have seen alot of people assume and declare with certainty that they know exactly how an organized group runs and what a stam support should accomplish in such group.

When they got asked what kind of experience they had, they simply said that they ran once with a ballgroup and got a ton of kills easy mode (being carried or not). Some of them even went all in and described what is a stamina support role for them.

First of all, it does not mean that you played once or twice or 10times in a ballgroup, got easy wins everytime, but then tried to 1vX and died very quickly that one is easier than the other. It's a question of how you challenge yourself and who you are fighting exactly.

You never backed up your "declare with certainty that they know exactly how an organized group runs" by the way.. "First of all" in this format demonstrates an abruptness or beginning in line of thought, which in a circumstance like this usually indicates finding fault with something preceding it.

You never pointed me out to this quote specifically. You generalized and said I straight downgraded 1vXers which I never did. Now I don't wanna point out names specifically because some people would see that as naming and shaming. Simply put, some people claimed that playing in an organized group is easy mode because they played once in a group. Then I proceeded and explained that those groups used to barely to not say never leave their front lines to challenge themselves deep in enemy territory. Really simple stuff. I'm sure you would have understood reading it twice.

frozywozy wrote: »

Your comparaison and experience in a ballgroup has no impact in this thread.

frozywozy wrote: »

Before assuming make sure that you have experienced and challenged yourself against real opponents.

Again, this was pointed to the same people and for the same reasons. I wasn't bashing on 1vXers or claiming that one playstyle is less skilful than another. I simply explained that if you wanna backup your words and claim that something is a fact, you will have to do better than running with one ballgroup one night zerg surfing and claim that this is easy.

templesus

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
Raid awareness - Only raid
Supporting allies - raid skill
peeling damage - raid skill
group communication - raid skill
Cancelling and weaving - both
Map knowledge - both
Resource management - Both
Buff upkeep - both
Situational awareness - both
enemy prediction - both

what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

You missed:
Proper use of LoS
Proper use of defense mechanisms
Proper use of heals

Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

Proper use of LoS - both
Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
Proper use of heals - both

anything else? @templesus

Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down. https://youtu.be/PFvFKFWL8V8

We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

I understand your perspective a bit more, but this isnt a high level raid in my mind. Maybe @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO thinks otherwise?

@templesus

I think this video quite aptly shows the difference in my mind between perspectives of a good raid vs someone who hasn't experienced a good raid .

That isn't to say that you can't have fun in such raids but its comparing completely different things.

Watching the video the first death occurs on an almost uncontested flag to an NPC negate and blazing shield templar who admittedly was emp for the first 2m of the clip so did provide some extra challenge for your group.
(I appreciate it isn't you recording) but I'm sorry to say it doesn't get much better in my eyes. Your group outnumbers the enemies there for the majority if not all of the video.

Its very clear to me that you don't have people playing group roles there based on the performance of the group and if you did and understood these group roles you would have not only secured the tick for yourselves but also cleaned up the keep and the blue raid most likely.
Equally this might be good performance for the PS4 platform, i'd have to watch other PS4 gameplay to find out

You won’t really find other PS4 gameplay because the game barely functions as is on console so most large group fights end in DCs. There are 2 guilds that are known PvP guilds left, in total, on PS4 NA.

ShadowProc

Crown yes. The other 23 players no. But even the Crown position is not as demanding as being solo. Having to balance healing, damage, utility, etc for yourself is exponentially harder and more challenging than distributing those into individual roles.

Don’t get me wrong I thoroughly enjoy wiping 200 players before I die but don’t kid yourself. I get way more satisfaction killing multiple people by myself. And I can’t watch tv shows while I do it like when in a raid. Lol

ShadowProc

Because a lot of the time the numbers are based off kill counter for a period of time. Saying they killed 80 when in reality they killed 20 or 30 at the same time 3 separate times. Lol

ShadowProc

Also why do you cap your raids at 12 to 16? I believe I could dig up some quotes of some of you saying to challenge yourselves. By your logic it is equally difficult in a raid of 16 or 24 or solo. Lol

Haashhtaag

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
Raid awareness - Only raid
Supporting allies - raid skill
peeling damage - raid skill
group communication - raid skill
Cancelling and weaving - both
Map knowledge - both
Resource management - Both
Buff upkeep - both
Situational awareness - both
enemy prediction - both

what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

You missed:
Proper use of LoS
Proper use of defense mechanisms
Proper use of heals

Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

Proper use of LoS - both
Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
Proper use of heals - both

anything else? @templesus

Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down. https://youtu.be/PFvFKFWL8V8

We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

Yo we were in the same guild before I moved on from console!

ScruffyWhiskers

Humans are such clever creatures. Saw a ball group using refreshing path to keep everybody together. I'd never seen that before. Maybe it happens a lot already. Didn't see them firing rapids so I'm guessing it was a substitute? Kept them pretty bunched up still. I though hey I'll lotus one of the straggles and try my luck. At that exact moment the rope a doped and ran me over with a destro ultimate before I could mist away. Ouch.

Recremen

templesus wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@CyrusArya

Personally I would rather remove the Murkmire nerf for smallscale and keep the group utility role but I guess some people prefer the *** for tat route.

The point is raids were already going to quite a great level to provide this buff, which, lets not forget, was already being removed every second. It was a completely unique and dedicated role and for me that's a shame that the diversity of that role is now no longer available.

It would be like tanking being removed from PVE because people think raids dps and healers need to handle their own mitigation. Can you imagine the rage should dps players have to buff with their own magicka steal or provide their own orbs for resource management.

There should be advantages of playing as a group imo. Just because people go to solo or 3 man a trial (for the added challenge) don't have those advantages you haven't convinced me that groups also shouldn't have them so far ^^

Clearly they aren’t gonna revert Murkmire, so for sake of balance things had to be evened out. First of all, to equate a rapids spammer to a tank in PvE is a ludicrous comparison and an insult to both PvPers and PvErs. Now to address your points of substance.

Of course there should be advantages to being in a group. Are you suggesting that without a rapids monkey there are none? Groups get copious amounts of cross support, dedicated healers, coordinated ultis from dedicated dps specs, the freedom to utilize sets and builds that those without the safety net of group support cannot viably run, and the advantage of sheer numbers. That’s plenty of advantages. Furthermore I also agree and support the idea of build and role diversity. But even though we agree on these points, you still haven’t convinced me that rapids- an ability that allowed one player spamming one skill to provide both root/snare immunity AND expedition to an entire group- was balanced. Do you realize to what lengths everyone else has to go to get either of these buffs, let alone both? Put simply, rapids gave organized ball groups far too much of an advantage over everyone else.

So sure, groups should have some advantages (which they naturally get as a function of being grouped) and build/role diversity is a good thing. But neither of these concepts are mutually exclusive with the fact that rapids in its former state was overtuned.

I've played stam support in large groups for a while, and frankly your comment is insulting. I play all forms of pvp including small man and solo, as you know; since, I've played against and with you. Stam support, rapids spam as you call it, takes no less skill than solo roaming if both are done at the same level.

What do you mean both done at the same level? I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing there is anything other than top tier dueling (and even then I would still put that below solo pvp) more challenging than solo pvp.

I mean what I said. I see you don't agree, but do you really not understand what I said?

I mean it’s hard to believe someone could say something that outrageous.

But then again it isn’t. Sometimes i forget this is the forums. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, however comments like the one you made cause your opinion to not hold any weight by a lot of people.

Playing in a group period is already exponentially easier than 1vXing regardless of your role.

You are making an objectively nonsense statement. Every single issue faced by someone playing solo scales up to group play, and in fact group players have even more to worry about than solo/someVxers.

What exactly does a solo person have to worry about? Survival, being outnumbered, bursting down opponents, kiting off an appropriate number of players they can actually handle, etc. Literally 100% of that is also a challenge for group players, only with a group you not only have to play well with yourself, you have to read the state of combat for dozens of other people and work cohesively with them to accomplish all of the above. THEN you also have to worry about map objective goals like taking keeps, which is something that isn't even on the table for "solo" players.

What about solo play is actually harder? The fact that it's easier to get outnumbered? Nope. Even a whole faction stack has to worry about going up against two other faction stacks in the worst case scenario. There is no such thing as equal numbers. Is it that you have no-one else to rely on? No, because that's actually easier as you only have to track your own combat status, while group players need to keep track of both themselves and their responsibility to others. Also I've yet to see anyone actually play solo. There are someVxers, and there are gankers who rely on large raid groups to distract their targets, and that's about it.

When it comes down to it, high-level solo play falls precipitously far behind the skill curve needed to do high-level group play. The mind games just aren't at the same tier.

The minute you stop relying on your own skill to survive and secure kills is when group play becomes easier then 1vX. It’s not hard really, if I have a 1v4 and I add one more person on my side of roughly equivalent skill level, I now have to tank 50% of the damage, do 50% of the damage, and account for 50% of the healing (theoretically, of course it doesn’t always happen exactly to those thresholds). Exponentially that percentage becomes less and less. Thus my previous comment stands.

I will restate it, saying things like “high-level group play requires more skill then 1vX” is a pure opinion that results in a net loss of credibility on the speakers end.

The minute you fail to properly utilize an additional group member is when you fail to adapt to the increased nuance of play in group combat. Also it's hilarious that you fail to understand even basic tenets of my argument, like problems scaling up. In your 1v4 scenario that turns into a 2v4 scenario, you have not done proper scaling. You know fractions, right? To scale that properly it would have to turn into a 2v8 fight.

So let's dive into that a little better instead of indulging your overly-dismissive attitude. Is a 1v4 equivalent to a 2v8 in any matter except for scale? Most certainly not. In 1v4 you only have to worry about the burst potential of 4 enemy combatants. In 2v8, however, you have to worry about the burst potential of 8 people. You also have the opportunity to capitalize, for your own purposes, on the burst damage of your teammate. The damage isn't magically split between you (unless you run Guard, I guess), and you also don't suddenly get 100% more damage potential from the additional teammate. These are all things that you have to make a conscious effort to engage with.

Even your initial premise, that groups have "stopped relying on their own skills to survive", is categorically false. A raid's healing department isn't going to be able to heal someone through a 10-person coordinated burst drop. That's not a real thing. It's on individuals to not be in the path of that damage, whether the leader calls it or not.

Maybe you could take some time to actually tease out why you think 1vX is, to scale, more challenging? If it's so obvious that it hurts my poor widdle cwedibility to deny it, then it should be equally easy to describe.

Yiko

frozywozy wrote: »

You never pointed me out to this quote specifically. You generalized and said I straight downgraded 1vXers which I never did. Now I don't wanna point out names specifically because some people would see that as naming and shaming. Simply put, some people claimed that playing in an organized group is easy mode because they played once in a group. Then I proceeded and explained that those groups used to barely to not say never leave their front lines to challenge themselves deep in enemy territory. Really simple stuff. I'm sure you would have understood reading it twice.

I didn't think that I needed to remind you specifically of what you had said that was relevant. Anyways, you're still failing to grasp the distinction between "downgrading" 1vXers and "downplaying 1vXers' experiences to the point that any opinion they hold of group play is without merit."

Then you hit me with this line:

frozywozy wrote: »

Then I proceeded and explained that those groups used to barely to not say never leave their front lines to challenge themselves deep in enemy territory.

Followed immediately and ironically by the condescending:

frozywozy wrote: »

Really simple stuff. I'm sure you would have understood reading it twice.

It actually can be hard to understand you when you're typing such incoherent thoughts. I realize that this is going to go nowhere at this point, so this is regrettably where we must part ways.

frozywozy

Yiko wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

You never pointed me out to this quote specifically. You generalized and said I straight downgraded 1vXers which I never did. Now I don't wanna point out names specifically because some people would see that as naming and shaming. Simply put, some people claimed that playing in an organized group is easy mode because they played once in a group. Then I proceeded and explained that those groups used to barely to not say never leave their front lines to challenge themselves deep in enemy territory. Really simple stuff. I'm sure you would have understood reading it twice.

I didn't think that I needed to remind you specifically of what you had said that was relevant. Anyways, you're still failing to grasp the distinction between "downgrading" 1vXers and "downplaying 1vXers' experiences to the point that any opinion they hold of group play is without merit."

Then you hit me with this line:

frozywozy wrote: »

Then I proceeded and explained that those groups used to barely to not say never leave their front lines to challenge themselves deep in enemy territory.

Followed immediately and ironically by the condescending:

frozywozy wrote: »

Really simple stuff. I'm sure you would have understood reading it twice.

It actually can be hard to understand you when you're typing such incoherent thoughts. I realize that this is going to go nowhere at this point, so this is regrettably where we must part ways.

Hope that helps you understand what 1 person getting carried by a group who mainly zerg surf is compared to a group who challenge themselves deep in enemy territory 3-4 days a week for the past few years.

Apologies for the spelling mistake, english is not my primary language.