Organized Raids This Patch

Satiar

Different skill set. Some people do great at both some don’t. I’ve had amazing small scale players repeatedly get picked and underperform in raid environments, and I’ve had amazing raid players just be lost in small groups. The people that do both very well are your stars and I’ve never seen a full guild of those. MBF probably the closest I’ve seen and they still had their weak links.

Syhae

I have played multiple roles in this game too, and some were dramatically easier than others.

I spent a year and change in various ball group guilds where I played various roles at a time.
Ranging from healing, stamina support through rapids, negate, encase
Glass cannon dps via magicka nightblade bombing

I became heavily invested in NA's dueling scene.

I shifted more towards solo/small scale PvP on various classes, specs, sizes ranging from 1 to 4.

Recently I became involved in small to medium scale PvP where the numbers we fight are equal to and in many cases greater than what these 16 man guilds provide footage of fighting.

There are aspects of this game that are easier in this game than others. To equate stamina support for a 16+ sized group to solo/small scale PvP in difficulty is laughable to say the least.

Stamina Support is there to provide mobility to your group, negate/ulting with group and possibly rooting clumps if you chose to run encase.
To do this you have to be able to do the following:
-Stay within your group to make sure everybody received your rapids buff and that you would receive as much healing as possible from your group.
-Manage your resources to make sure you always had stamina to rapids when your group needed.
-Hold your negate for when your raid lead called for it.

All of these are very simple to accomplish. You don't need to build anything but sustain and durability on top of stamina sorcerer having access to dark deal which makes sustain even easier for this scenario. You should never run out of stamina.
Holding ultimate and staying inside your group is self explanatory for how easy it is to do.

Solo PvP has many more intervals to take into account. (And I don't count killing 3 lvl 35s and CP 200's to count as solo PvP)
-The individual has to properly build their character to be able to respond to any situation that may come up. This includes building some form of mobility, having proper sustain for long fights where 1 or more healers may be involved. Build enough damage to kill any spec that encounters them while also not being too squishy. Note this is just talking about building for solo PvP.
-The individual has to know what each and every skill in the game does, how to counter each class,
- how to line of sight
- how to manage resources
- how to heal themselves efficiently.
Note all of this is provided ONLY by the individual, they do not have other players to support them.


That statement is simply laughable. If solo were so easy you'd see many ball group players engaging in it instead of front line zerging until their group logs on so they can front line zerg with each other.

TBois

Now we are talking some sense, and we have stopped bashing the others for playing a different role than we do.

LeifErickson

TBois wrote: »

Now we are talking some sense, and we have stopped bashing the others for playing a different role than we do.

No one was bashing anyone for what role they play.

TBois

Syhae wrote: »

I have played multiple roles in this game too, and some were dramatically easier than others.

I spent a year and change in various ball group guilds where I played various roles at a time.
Ranging from healing, stamina support through rapids, negate, encase
Glass cannon dps via magicka nightblade bombing

I became heavily invested in NA's dueling scene.

I shifted more towards solo/small scale PvP on various classes, specs, sizes ranging from 1 to 4.

Recently I became involved in small to medium scale PvP where the numbers we fight are equal to and in many cases greater than what these 16 man guilds provide footage of fighting.

There are aspects of this game that are easier in this game than others. To equate stamina support for a 16+ sized group to solo/small scale PvP in difficulty is laughable to say the least.

Stamina Support is there to provide mobility to your group, negate/ulting with group and possibly rooting clumps if you chose to run encase.
To do this you have to be able to do the following:
-Stay within your group to make sure everybody received your rapids buff and that you would receive as much healing as possible from your group.
-Manage your resources to make sure you always had stamina to rapids when your group needed.
-Hold your negate for when your raid lead called for it.

All of these are very simple to accomplish. You don't need to build anything but sustain and durability on top of stamina sorcerer having access to dark deal which makes sustain even easier for this scenario. You should never run out of stamina.
Holding ultimate and staying inside your group is self explanatory for how easy it is to do.

Solo PvP has many more intervals to take into account. (And I don't count killing 3 lvl 35s and CP 200's to count as solo PvP)
-The individual has to properly build their character to be able to respond to any situation that may come up. This includes building some form of mobility, having proper sustain for long fights where 1 or more healers may be involved. Build enough damage to kill any spec that encounters them while also not being too squishy. Note this is just talking about building for solo PvP.
-The individual has to know what each and every skill in the game does, how to counter each class,
- how to line of sight
- how to manage resources
- how to heal themselves efficiently.
Note all of this is provided ONLY by the individual, they do not have other players to support them.


That statement is simply laughable. If solo were so easy you'd see many ball group players engaging in it instead of front line zerging until their group logs on so they can front line zerg with each other.

The bolded are also required in stamina support at a high level. You even mentioned some with your stamina support analysis. I would put los equal to avoiding damage while staying in range to rapids.

Glory

How are the adaptations coming after the change to rapids?

Not a large scale player myself, but curious about what solutions have been taken so far and whether they're effective.

I figure there are a few paths groups will explore as they are now more susceptible to slow mechanics, am curious which will become the preferred.

Recremen

templesus wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@CyrusArya

Personally I would rather remove the Murkmire nerf for smallscale and keep the group utility role but I guess some people prefer the *** for tat route.

The point is raids were already going to quite a great level to provide this buff, which, lets not forget, was already being removed every second. It was a completely unique and dedicated role and for me that's a shame that the diversity of that role is now no longer available.

It would be like tanking being removed from PVE because people think raids dps and healers need to handle their own mitigation. Can you imagine the rage should dps players have to buff with their own magicka steal or provide their own orbs for resource management.

There should be advantages of playing as a group imo. Just because people go to solo or 3 man a trial (for the added challenge) don't have those advantages you haven't convinced me that groups also shouldn't have them so far ^^

Clearly they aren’t gonna revert Murkmire, so for sake of balance things had to be evened out. First of all, to equate a rapids spammer to a tank in PvE is a ludicrous comparison and an insult to both PvPers and PvErs. Now to address your points of substance.

Of course there should be advantages to being in a group. Are you suggesting that without a rapids monkey there are none? Groups get copious amounts of cross support, dedicated healers, coordinated ultis from dedicated dps specs, the freedom to utilize sets and builds that those without the safety net of group support cannot viably run, and the advantage of sheer numbers. That’s plenty of advantages. Furthermore I also agree and support the idea of build and role diversity. But even though we agree on these points, you still haven’t convinced me that rapids- an ability that allowed one player spamming one skill to provide both root/snare immunity AND expedition to an entire group- was balanced. Do you realize to what lengths everyone else has to go to get either of these buffs, let alone both? Put simply, rapids gave organized ball groups far too much of an advantage over everyone else.

So sure, groups should have some advantages (which they naturally get as a function of being grouped) and build/role diversity is a good thing. But neither of these concepts are mutually exclusive with the fact that rapids in its former state was overtuned.

I've played stam support in large groups for a while, and frankly your comment is insulting. I play all forms of pvp including small man and solo, as you know; since, I've played against and with you. Stam support, rapids spam as you call it, takes no less skill than solo roaming if both are done at the same level.

What do you mean both done at the same level? I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing there is anything other than top tier dueling (and even then I would still put that below solo pvp) more challenging than solo pvp.

I mean what I said. I see you don't agree, but do you really not understand what I said?

I mean it’s hard to believe someone could say something that outrageous.

But then again it isn’t. Sometimes i forget this is the forums. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, however comments like the one you made cause your opinion to not hold any weight by a lot of people.

Playing in a group period is already exponentially easier than 1vXing regardless of your role.

You are making an objectively nonsense statement. Every single issue faced by someone playing solo scales up to group play, and in fact group players have even more to worry about than solo/someVxers.

What exactly does a solo person have to worry about? Survival, being outnumbered, bursting down opponents, kiting off an appropriate number of players they can actually handle, etc. Literally 100% of that is also a challenge for group players, only with a group you not only have to play well with yourself, you have to read the state of combat for dozens of other people and work cohesively with them to accomplish all of the above. THEN you also have to worry about map objective goals like taking keeps, which is something that isn't even on the table for "solo" players.

What about solo play is actually harder? The fact that it's easier to get outnumbered? Nope. Even a whole faction stack has to worry about going up against two other faction stacks in the worst case scenario. There is no such thing as equal numbers. Is it that you have no-one else to rely on? No, because that's actually easier as you only have to track your own combat status, while group players need to keep track of both themselves and their responsibility to others. Also I've yet to see anyone actually play solo. There are someVxers, and there are gankers who rely on large raid groups to distract their targets, and that's about it.

When it comes down to it, high-level solo play falls precipitously far behind the skill curve needed to do high-level group play. The mind games just aren't at the same tier.

frozywozy

I have been following this thread without saying anything so far but I gotta step in at this point. I have seen alot of people assume and declare with certainty that they know exactly how an organized group runs and what a stam support should accomplish in such group.

When they got asked what kind of experience they had, they simply said that they ran once with a ballgroup and got a ton of kills easy mode (being carried or not). Some of them even went all in and described what is a stamina support role for them.

First of all, it does not mean that you played once or twice or 10times in a ballgroup, got easy wins everytime, but then tried to 1vX and died very quickly that one is easier than the other. It's a question of how you challenge yourself and who you are fighting exactly. Most ballgroups will stick on their front line, close to their factions, like the ones mentioned in this thread in example. 1-4vXing by definition means that you do an effort to get away from your faction to get your own fights.

Your comparaison and experience in a ballgroup has no impact in this thread. People are exclusively talking about the most challenging fight where it's your group of 8-16 against 4 if not 5times your numbers and your faction out of reach.

Secondly, while I agree that a stam support is the easiest role I have played so far in such group, the description that most of people in this thread have been describing is very far from reality. Any role in an organized group use all their 10 skills at least once every 10 seconds with the exception of Inner Light / Bound Armaments.

Before assuming make sure that you have experienced and challenged yourself against real opponents.

montiferus

Sandman929 wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

It's great that yall have such strong opinions and passion about this game, but dont forget that the best educator is experience. So maybe give it a try before you bash it.

I've tried both. Playing in larger groups is easier...like a lot easier. Playing effectively in small groups without support roles is much harder.

It's a lot easier if you're in a large group seeking the same fights as you would in a small group. That's not the point of a large organized group, even though some seem to do that. Is 16 v 10 easier than 5 v 10? Yes. 16 v 40 isn't so easy, and 5 v 40, the 5 have to run away.

montiferus

Recremen wrote: »

When it comes down to it, high-level solo play falls precipitously far behind the skill curve needed to do high-level group play. The mind games just aren't at the same tier.

Can you please put this in your signature so we can all be reminded of this little nugget of wisdom.

Glory

frozywozy wrote: »

Your comparaison and experience in a ballgroup has no impact in this thread. People are exclusively talking about the most challenging fight where it's your group of 8-16 against 4 if not 5times your numbers and your faction out of reach.

Off-topic, but I am genuinely interested in seeing the 16v64-80's that people are talking about as being a scenario that happens.

I think the only scenario I've seen that even remotely resembles a fight like that is the one from your stream from a while back against AotP.

In something like this video https://youtube.com/watch?v=lq4GAlETlSA&t=109s, I paused and counted and the numbers from AotP never exceeded 30 on screen (and they were pretty well grouped)


I think this is the clip

• First full-force engagement I counted 31-33 EP @ 0:05
• Second push by your group I counted somewhere around 40 EP, probably 45
• From 1:23 to 1:44 I counted somewhere from 44-50 enemies, although it was hard to tally due to the movement

I don't think I've seen more than a handful of clips where people are fighting legitimately more than 50 people. Fighting 50 is quite a feat for any group (especially <=16), but I haven't seen any actual 80 enemy engagements (but there is truly an issue with necro-rezzing as well as having multiple groups of 24 throughout a keep etc.)

Note: I am in no way saying any of these fights are unimpressive. I am questioning how people perceive the quantity of opponents they are fighting. I am also a culprit: sometimes I feel like I am fighting 10 people alone when it's 3-6

templesus

Recremen wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@CyrusArya

Personally I would rather remove the Murkmire nerf for smallscale and keep the group utility role but I guess some people prefer the *** for tat route.

The point is raids were already going to quite a great level to provide this buff, which, lets not forget, was already being removed every second. It was a completely unique and dedicated role and for me that's a shame that the diversity of that role is now no longer available.

It would be like tanking being removed from PVE because people think raids dps and healers need to handle their own mitigation. Can you imagine the rage should dps players have to buff with their own magicka steal or provide their own orbs for resource management.

There should be advantages of playing as a group imo. Just because people go to solo or 3 man a trial (for the added challenge) don't have those advantages you haven't convinced me that groups also shouldn't have them so far ^^

Clearly they aren’t gonna revert Murkmire, so for sake of balance things had to be evened out. First of all, to equate a rapids spammer to a tank in PvE is a ludicrous comparison and an insult to both PvPers and PvErs. Now to address your points of substance.

Of course there should be advantages to being in a group. Are you suggesting that without a rapids monkey there are none? Groups get copious amounts of cross support, dedicated healers, coordinated ultis from dedicated dps specs, the freedom to utilize sets and builds that those without the safety net of group support cannot viably run, and the advantage of sheer numbers. That’s plenty of advantages. Furthermore I also agree and support the idea of build and role diversity. But even though we agree on these points, you still haven’t convinced me that rapids- an ability that allowed one player spamming one skill to provide both root/snare immunity AND expedition to an entire group- was balanced. Do you realize to what lengths everyone else has to go to get either of these buffs, let alone both? Put simply, rapids gave organized ball groups far too much of an advantage over everyone else.

So sure, groups should have some advantages (which they naturally get as a function of being grouped) and build/role diversity is a good thing. But neither of these concepts are mutually exclusive with the fact that rapids in its former state was overtuned.

I've played stam support in large groups for a while, and frankly your comment is insulting. I play all forms of pvp including small man and solo, as you know; since, I've played against and with you. Stam support, rapids spam as you call it, takes no less skill than solo roaming if both are done at the same level.

What do you mean both done at the same level? I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing there is anything other than top tier dueling (and even then I would still put that below solo pvp) more challenging than solo pvp.

I mean what I said. I see you don't agree, but do you really not understand what I said?

I mean it’s hard to believe someone could say something that outrageous.

But then again it isn’t. Sometimes i forget this is the forums. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, however comments like the one you made cause your opinion to not hold any weight by a lot of people.

Playing in a group period is already exponentially easier than 1vXing regardless of your role.

You are making an objectively nonsense statement. Every single issue faced by someone playing solo scales up to group play, and in fact group players have even more to worry about than solo/someVxers.

What exactly does a solo person have to worry about? Survival, being outnumbered, bursting down opponents, kiting off an appropriate number of players they can actually handle, etc. Literally 100% of that is also a challenge for group players, only with a group you not only have to play well with yourself, you have to read the state of combat for dozens of other people and work cohesively with them to accomplish all of the above. THEN you also have to worry about map objective goals like taking keeps, which is something that isn't even on the table for "solo" players.

What about solo play is actually harder? The fact that it's easier to get outnumbered? Nope. Even a whole faction stack has to worry about going up against two other faction stacks in the worst case scenario. There is no such thing as equal numbers. Is it that you have no-one else to rely on? No, because that's actually easier as you only have to track your own combat status, while group players need to keep track of both themselves and their responsibility to others. Also I've yet to see anyone actually play solo. There are someVxers, and there are gankers who rely on large raid groups to distract their targets, and that's about it.

When it comes down to it, high-level solo play falls precipitously far behind the skill curve needed to do high-level group play. The mind games just aren't at the same tier.

The minute you stop relying on your own skill to survive and secure kills is when group play becomes easier then 1vX. It’s not hard really, if I have a 1v4 and I add one more person on my side of roughly equivalent skill level, I now have to tank 50% of the damage, do 50% of the damage, and account for 50% of the healing (theoretically, of course it doesn’t always happen exactly to those thresholds). Exponentially that percentage becomes less and less. Thus my previous comment stands.

I will restate it, saying things like “high-level group play requires more skill then 1vX” is a pure opinion that results in a net loss of credibility on the speakers end.

montiferus

Glory wrote: »

Off-topic, but I am genuinely interested in seeing the 16v64-80's that people are talking about as being a scenario that happens.

This. I've also watched clips of ball groups that play on my platform (xbox) and at best most of their clips actually consist of winning 2:1 odds. Some times they are almost evenly matched or even outnumbering their opponents. Not particularly impressive.

Ixtyr

Any decent Stam Support worth their salt did plenty more than just spam Rapids and nothing else. I'd argue the role has more to it than most damage roles do in group, but I can only speak for how we used the role in our raids, not for other guilds.

That said, it's a good change, at least in a vacuum. The issue is movement for all players is quite ***, because movement needs rebalanced in general. This change, and the Murk changes before it, should not have happened without simultaneously heavily rebalancing snares and CCs.

frozywozy

Glory wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Your comparaison and experience in a ballgroup has no impact in this thread. People are exclusively talking about the most challenging fight where it's your group of 8-16 against 4 if not 5times your numbers and your faction out of reach.

Off-topic, but I am genuinely interested in seeing the 16v64-80's that people are talking about as being a scenario that happens.

I think the only scenario I've seen that even remotely resembles a fight like that is the one from your stream from a while back against AotP.

In something like this video https://youtube.com/watch?v=lq4GAlETlSA&t=109s, I paused and counted and the numbers from AotP never exceeded 30 on screen (and they were pretty well grouped)


I think this is the clip

• First full-force engagement I counted 31-33 EP @ 0:05
• Second push by your group I counted somewhere around 40 EP, probably 45
• From 1:23 to 1:44 I counted somewhere from 44-50 enemies, although it was hard to tally due to the movement

I don't think I've seen more than a handful of clips where people are fighting legitimately more than 50 people. Fighting 50 is quite a feat for any group (especially <=16), but I haven't seen any actual 80 enemy engagements (but there is truly an issue with necro-rezzing as well as having multiple groups of 24 throughout a keep etc.)

Note: I am in no way saying any of these fights are unimpressive. I am questioning how people perceive the quantity of opponents they are fighting. I am also a culprit: sometimes I feel like I am fighting 10 people alone when it's 3-6

We don't have much recording of fights involving 50-70 because AotP formed up recently. The proof is, AotP usually have between 3 and 4 raids on Sunday nights. That is between 72 and 96 players. We also know people who hang on their Discord and they usually have that many people in one lobby. They also have several people who stream their raids and we can hear the voice comm in the background calling directions. I would say that 90% of the time we fight them, all their raids are stacked together in one location very tight to each other. We also checked the amount of people who damaged us at the end of that engagement and it was between 70 and 75 if I recall correctly.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

.

Glory wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Your comparaison and experience in a ballgroup has no impact in this thread. People are exclusively talking about the most challenging fight where it's your group of 8-16 against 4 if not 5times your numbers and your faction out of reach.

Off-topic, but I am genuinely interested in seeing the 16v64-80's that people are talking about as being a scenario that happens.

I think the only scenario I've seen that even remotely resembles a fight like that is the one from your stream from a while back against AotP.

In something like this video https://youtube.com/watch?v=lq4GAlETlSA&t=109s, I paused and counted and the numbers from AotP never exceeded 30 on screen (and they were pretty well grouped)


I think this is the clip

• First full-force engagement I counted 31-33 EP @ 0:05
• Second push by your group I counted somewhere around 40 EP, probably 45
• From 1:23 to 1:44 I counted somewhere from 44-50 enemies, although it was hard to tally due to the movement

I don't think I've seen more than a handful of clips where people are fighting legitimately more than 50 people. Fighting 50 is quite a feat for any group (especially <=16), but I haven't seen any actual 80 enemy engagements (but there is truly an issue with necro-rezzing as well as having multiple groups of 24 throughout a keep etc.)

Note: I am in no way saying any of these fights are unimpressive. I am questioning how people perceive the quantity of opponents they are fighting. I am also a culprit: sometimes I feel like I am fighting 10 people alone when it's 3-6

Lets take the scenario where you 1vX 6 people. Are you usually fighting all 6 people at the same time? no, you are kiting, finding the weak guy who is over extending and bursting him down whilst 2-3 others catch up and repeating. Sure there are some tanky builds which are working well but again its very rare to find an opponent weak enough that you can fight them in such a mannor. Similar goes for group fights, for example if we fight AoTP and they have 2 full raids + raid 3 almost full and have them stacked in a location trying to fight us, it doesnt mean that all 50+ will be on top of us at one point (if they are we have likely failed to kill them already). You would still count the 1v6 just as a raid would count the 16 v 60 because in total theres over 60 players trying to kill them in the fight within a reasonable space of time.

You can try count the people from the first clip in our most recent video, felt like a lot though, 11k rolling AP from just kills

Somnilux

templesus wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@CyrusArya

Personally I would rather remove the Murkmire nerf for smallscale and keep the group utility role but I guess some people prefer the *** for tat route.

The point is raids were already going to quite a great level to provide this buff, which, lets not forget, was already being removed every second. It was a completely unique and dedicated role and for me that's a shame that the diversity of that role is now no longer available.

It would be like tanking being removed from PVE because people think raids dps and healers need to handle their own mitigation. Can you imagine the rage should dps players have to buff with their own magicka steal or provide their own orbs for resource management.

There should be advantages of playing as a group imo. Just because people go to solo or 3 man a trial (for the added challenge) don't have those advantages you haven't convinced me that groups also shouldn't have them so far ^^

Clearly they aren’t gonna revert Murkmire, so for sake of balance things had to be evened out. First of all, to equate a rapids spammer to a tank in PvE is a ludicrous comparison and an insult to both PvPers and PvErs. Now to address your points of substance.

Of course there should be advantages to being in a group. Are you suggesting that without a rapids monkey there are none? Groups get copious amounts of cross support, dedicated healers, coordinated ultis from dedicated dps specs, the freedom to utilize sets and builds that those without the safety net of group support cannot viably run, and the advantage of sheer numbers. That’s plenty of advantages. Furthermore I also agree and support the idea of build and role diversity. But even though we agree on these points, you still haven’t convinced me that rapids- an ability that allowed one player spamming one skill to provide both root/snare immunity AND expedition to an entire group- was balanced. Do you realize to what lengths everyone else has to go to get either of these buffs, let alone both? Put simply, rapids gave organized ball groups far too much of an advantage over everyone else.

So sure, groups should have some advantages (which they naturally get as a function of being grouped) and build/role diversity is a good thing. But neither of these concepts are mutually exclusive with the fact that rapids in its former state was overtuned.

I've played stam support in large groups for a while, and frankly your comment is insulting. I play all forms of pvp including small man and solo, as you know; since, I've played against and with you. Stam support, rapids spam as you call it, takes no less skill than solo roaming if both are done at the same level.

What do you mean both done at the same level? I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing there is anything other than top tier dueling (and even then I would still put that below solo pvp) more challenging than solo pvp.

I mean what I said. I see you don't agree, but do you really not understand what I said?

I mean it’s hard to believe someone could say something that outrageous.

But then again it isn’t. Sometimes i forget this is the forums. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, however comments like the one you made cause your opinion to not hold any weight by a lot of people.

Playing in a group period is already exponentially easier than 1vXing regardless of your role.

You are making an objectively nonsense statement. Every single issue faced by someone playing solo scales up to group play, and in fact group players have even more to worry about than solo/someVxers.

What exactly does a solo person have to worry about? Survival, being outnumbered, bursting down opponents, kiting off an appropriate number of players they can actually handle, etc. Literally 100% of that is also a challenge for group players, only with a group you not only have to play well with yourself, you have to read the state of combat for dozens of other people and work cohesively with them to accomplish all of the above. THEN you also have to worry about map objective goals like taking keeps, which is something that isn't even on the table for "solo" players.

What about solo play is actually harder? The fact that it's easier to get outnumbered? Nope. Even a whole faction stack has to worry about going up against two other faction stacks in the worst case scenario. There is no such thing as equal numbers. Is it that you have no-one else to rely on? No, because that's actually easier as you only have to track your own combat status, while group players need to keep track of both themselves and their responsibility to others. Also I've yet to see anyone actually play solo. There are someVxers, and there are gankers who rely on large raid groups to distract their targets, and that's about it.

When it comes down to it, high-level solo play falls precipitously far behind the skill curve needed to do high-level group play. The mind games just aren't at the same tier.

The minute you stop relying on your own skill to survive and secure kills is when group play becomes easier then 1vX. It’s not hard really, if I have a 1v4 and I add one more person on my side of roughly equivalent skill level, I now have to tank 50% of the damage, do 50% of the damage, and account for 50% of the healing (theoretically, of course it doesn’t always happen exactly to those thresholds). Exponentially that percentage becomes less and less. Thus my previous comment stands.

I will restate it, saying things like “high-level group play requires more skill then 1vX” is a pure opinion that results in a net loss of credibility on the speakers end.

I'm just baffled how you made this comment and don't understand how ludicrous this sounds. In group play its not a whole bunch of people equally doing symmetrical roles doing the exact same thing. If they were, they might as well not be grouped. This game is a grouping focused game. There can be challenging content for single players, or multiplayers and teamwork and working off other players strengths and weaknesses (and other classes/roles) are their own skills, and have their own learning curve. There is challenging solo (vet maelstrom arena), small group (vet hard mode newer DLCs, vet Blackrose Prison), and large group trials (vet cloudrest +3). Trying to compare the skill sets, or making declarative statements about one requiring innately more skill than another is as silly as this discussion is on the macro level. I don't hear people who solo vMA claiming that the highest end trial guilds aren't skilled and that healing or tanking in them is so easy and skill-less, or making declarative statements about vet trials after running one time while testing out for a new guild and having no trouble >_>

There are asymmetric challenges in group pvp. People taking leadership roles have to coordinate more, make multiple people of varying skill levels and personality work together. There are guild theorcrafters who figure out the metas, and come up with strategies. There are raid leads making second by second decisions on what the groups should do as a whole, and each and every person in the raid has their own microcosm of decision making that can influence the success of the group. But not all situations are equal, not all group scenarios are the equivalent of vCR+3. Just as not all people who play solo and 1vX masters of the game nor capable of large group play, let alone getting along with other people for more than 5 seconds and having the ability to parse group failures out from individual failures.

There's more padding for bad play in a group scenario. You can be carried. But you also hold greater risk of bringing down other players with your bad decisions. You can be the VD that wipes the raid, and you can be the toxic personality that demoralizes half the guild.

Edika

the point was not that people that play support in organized raids (or any other role) need to git gud tho

The point is that the snare/root meta sucks, so welcome to the pit with everybody else untill it changes. Even tho im pretty sure the best grps will adapt especially after siege dmg goes back to normal values

Somnilux

Edika wrote: »

the point was not that people that play support in organized raids (or any other role) need to git gud tho

The point is that the snare/root meta sucks, so welcome to the pit with everybody else untill it changes. Even tho im pretty sure the best grps will adapt especially after siege dmg goes back to normal values

I think we can all agree that the snare/root meta is utter garbage outside of BGs, where much of the game's PVP is balanced. Unfortunately I'm not sure how we get the developers to the point they can see how problematic it is from a gameplay design without more of the developers participating in cyrodiil.

Its not like there's even a consensus in here on most things from people who do play, because we all have different perspective and experiences and opinions. There definitely was the overall theme of 'large group players are lazy and have it easy' that I was trying to combat.

frozywozy

Edika wrote: »

the point was not that people that play support in organized raids (or any other role) need to git gud tho

The point is that the snare/root meta sucks, so welcome to the pit with everybody else untill it changes. Even tho im pretty sure the best grps will adapt especially after siege dmg goes back to normal values

No offense mate but since Murkmire got released, I have seen at least 10 players running in groups of 12-16 screaming in these forums defending people who do small scale about the changes to Forward Momentum. That was a huge mistake and should not have happened in the first place.

Now how did people who don't play in medium / large groups reacted to that? They screamed for nerfs to maneuvers instead of asking Forward Momentum nerf to be rethought or the whole roots / snares system to be reworked entirely.

Somnilux wrote: »

Edika wrote: »

the point was not that people that play support in organized raids (or any other role) need to git gud tho

The point is that the snare/root meta sucks, so welcome to the pit with everybody else untill it changes. Even tho im pretty sure the best grps will adapt especially after siege dmg goes back to normal values

I think we can all agree that the snare/root meta is utter garbage outside of BGs

I believe that the biggest problem is in bgs. I don't know if you watched the last ZOS live stream on Twitch involving class reps against devs but all I could see there was a bunch of people dodge rolling trying to get out of blockade of frost until they ran out of stam and died. And that's what I see when I watch people doing bgs on Twitch. Frostdens totally dominating.

MalagenR

I made 3 videos last night:

1 of me killing 3 players solo outside of BRK while they were heading to that far east outpost. (1vX isn't dead, it's always relied on there being bad players in the open world, bad players are not going anywhere)

1 of me negating Gooch's ball group resulting in them being wiped. (he didn't get wiped because of no rapids or roots/slows, he got wiped because someone actually knew how to place their negate)

1 of our zerg wiping 50+ reds while trying a scroll run and eventually failing (we didn't get wiped because of snares, and we didn't bomb them well because of snares, AD just reacted way to slow to us back capping the scroll fort and made no effort to protect the route)

In none of these videos did ball group "tactics" really change. In fact, most ball groups do exactly what small groups do, prey on scrubs to stupid to not see it coming from a mile away. To me, the "tactics" are still the same:

1. Identify group of zerglings either by baiting in a tower or baiting at an outpost
2. Bait group of zerglings into thinking they have a chance by kiting them until they have properly bunched up like the trashcans they are
3. Run towards group pressing ultimate button


If you call this behavior, "tactical" or think that snares significantly impact their ability to execute this strategy, I can''t even. I just really can't even. Seriously Karen, I can't even.

Yiko

frozywozy wrote: »

I have been following this thread without saying anything so far but I gotta step in at this point. I have seen alot of people assume and declare with certainty that they know exactly how an organized group runs and what a stam support should accomplish in such group.

A lot of people declaring with certainty that they know exactly how an organized group runs? Please point out where.

frozywozy wrote: »

Before assuming make sure that you have experienced and challenged yourself against real opponents.

That would be even more excellent advice to the people claiming that Stamina support in ball groups is as skillful, or even more skillful, as successfully 1vXing at a high level.

I feel like asking people who religiously play self-reliantly and have to carry their own weight solo (implying damage, heals, and utility) to require actual experience in a 24-man in order to understand carrying the weight of a ROLE (damage, heals, or utility) is fundamentally different than asking someone who only knows carrying the weight of their role to require solo experience to understand what it is to be self-reliant. One group will be able to transition much more easily than another.
One group will be gaining support, and another group will be losing support. I do not-so-solemnly apologize for trying to imagine how my gameplay experience might change if I had others to support me in healing and utility roles, whose functions I had to personally attend to previously.

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Recremen wrote: »

You are making an objectively nonsense statement. Every single issue faced by someone playing solo scales up to group play, and in fact group players have even more to worry about than solo/someVxers.

When it comes down to it, high-level solo play falls precipitously far behind the skill curve needed to do high-level group play. The mind games just aren't at the same tier.

Truly, this is art.

frozywozy

Yiko wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I have been following this thread without saying anything so far but I gotta step in at this point. I have seen alot of people assume and declare with certainty that they know exactly how an organized group runs and what a stam support should accomplish in such group.

A lot of people declaring with certainty that they know exactly how an organized group runs? Please point out where.

frozywozy wrote: »

Before assuming make sure that you have experienced and challenged yourself against real opponents.

That would be even more excellent advice to the people claiming that Stamina support in ball groups is as skillful, or even more skillful, as successfully 1vXing at a high level.

I feel like asking people who religiously play self-reliantly and have to carry their own weight solo (implying damage, heals, and utility) to require actual experience in a 24-man in order to understand carrying the weight of a ROLE (damage, heals, or utility) is fundamentally different than asking someone who only knows carrying the weight of their role to require solo experience to understand what it is to be self-reliant. One group will be able to transition much more easily than another.
One group will be gaining support, and another group will be losing support. I do not-so-solemnly apologize for trying to imagine how my gameplay experience might change if I had others to support me in healing and utility roles, whose functions I had to personally attend to previously.

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Truly, this is art.

Next time you wanna quote me and ask me such question, make sure that in the quote, I mentioned such thing.

Alfie2072

frostz417 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Has anyone seen any since rapids nerf? If so how hilarious has it been to watch them move amidst the time stops/roots?

The age of siege and dragon disruptor are upon us.

Yeah trash nerf honestly. So now we all get to be in the mud with all the ridiculous snares

literally welcome to any solo/small man player

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Yiko wrote: »

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
Raid awareness - Only raid
Supporting allies - raid skill
peeling damage - raid skill
group communication - raid skill
Cancelling and weaving - both
Map knowledge - both
Resource management - Both
Buff upkeep - both
Situational awareness - both
enemy prediction - both

what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

frozywozy

@Yiko I don't know what you want from me. I have never mentioned that running a stam support role in a medium to large group was more skilful than 1vxing. I have always given credit to any playstyle.

Satiar

Support always gets ridiculed in any MMO I’ve played and it’s kinda dumb. IMO it’s not about the skill but about the dedication and scarifice to be that guy who does the non-glamorous work of keeping the group active and moving. It’s even less noticed than healing, and certainly less glam than wracking up KBs. But you always need those support players to make any pvp group work.

templesus

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
Raid awareness - Only raid
Supporting allies - raid skill
peeling damage - raid skill
group communication - raid skill
Cancelling and weaving - both
Map knowledge - both
Resource management - Both
Buff upkeep - both
Situational awareness - both
enemy prediction - both

what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

You missed:
Proper use of LoS
Proper use of defense mechanisms
Proper use of heals

Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

ZOS_Mika

We have recently removed some non-constructive and rude comments from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and free of insults. Thank you for your understanding.

WaltherCarraway

People here don’t know forward momentum???

Forward momentum, hump the ground, revebe bash, spin, forward momentum

What rapid? What rapid???