Stage 4 Vampires and transformed Werewolves should be attacked by guards, like Necromancy.

RogueShark

I don't like the idea of the justice system affecting class skills or abilities tbh.
I mean if you make werewolves attackable, then it's going to suck for everyone who's running around and questing as WW. You already lose transformation enough when going into new zones or running from one objective to the next.
Vampires... why? How will they automatically know you're a vampire if you're covered head to toe? Would you expect someone to code that nightmare?
Why are necromancers suddenly being slapped with this justice system when for YEARS we have had sorcs strolling around nonchalantly with DAEDRA following them as DAEDRA attacked and killed people throughout Tamriel? Should that change? Hey have fun as a sorc being ported out of your dungeon with your pets and back into town and immediately being KOS by the guards.

It's inconsistent, it pointlessly affects gameplay, and there's no way to cover every contingency for everything that should be 'illegal'.

Lab3360

I would be ok with that as long as the guards OPness is dropped to a level where they are killable.

ArchangelIsraphel

I think vampires should only produce this effect if they use a skill. Otherwise, this would just be inconvenient for them, and it would amount to a much worse punishment, because both necros and werewolves would be able to hide themselves, while vampire never really could other than...unranking themselves? Not sure how that really works. (Not a fan of the idea as a whole, and I don't even own a vampire or PVP in towns.)

StarOfElyon

Garethjolnir wrote: »

As per the title. The feature that they are bringing with the upcoming patch, that guards attack you when using necromancy in town, should also apply to stage 4 vampirism and transformed werewolves.

Obviously!

And I insist that the Templar class be fixed so that people don't feel like they have to be vampires to have success.

ArchangelIsraphel

RogueShark wrote: »

I don't like the idea of the justice system affecting class skills or abilities tbh.
I mean if you make werewolves attackable, then it's going to suck for everyone who's running around and questing as WW. You already lose transformation enough when going into new zones or running from one objective to the next.
Vampires... why? How will they automatically know you're a vampire if you're covered head to toe? Would you expect someone to code that nightmare?
Why are necromancers suddenly being slapped with this justice system when for YEARS we have had sorcs strolling around nonchalantly with DAEDRA following them as DAEDRA attacked and killed people throughout Tamriel? Should that change? Hey have fun as a sorc being ported out of your dungeon with your pets and back into town and immediately being KOS by the guards.

It's inconsistent, it pointlessly affects gameplay, and there's no way to cover every contingency for everything that should be 'illegal'.

^^^^This. All of this, right here. Agreed 100%

D0PAMINE

Lab3360 wrote: »

I would be ok with that as long as the guards OPness is dropped to a level where they are killable.

Maybe like IC bosses? That could be fun

StarOfElyon

RogueShark wrote: »

I don't like the idea of the justice system affecting class skills or abilities tbh.
I mean if you make werewolves attackable, then it's going to suck for everyone who's running around and questing as WW. You already lose transformation enough when going into new zones or running from one objective to the next.
Vampires... why? How will they automatically know you're a vampire if you're covered head to toe? Would you expect someone to code that nightmare?
Why are necromancers suddenly being slapped with this justice system when for YEARS we have had sorcs strolling around nonchalantly with DAEDRA following them as DAEDRA attacked and killed people throughout Tamriel? Should that change? Hey have fun as a sorc being ported out of your dungeon with your pets and back into town and immediately being KOS by the guards.

It's inconsistent, it pointlessly affects gameplay, and there's no way to cover every contingency for everything that should be 'illegal'.

It would serve those filthy daedra lovers right.

Yamenstein

Claudman wrote: »

I can see transformed werewolves, but I don't know about vampires as you can hide your vampiric appearance with a disguise or a skin, so that would call for more scripting most likely. See, as much as Stendarr is a chad of the Divines, I don't think we could have attack-on-sight vampires...Werewolves maybe, though that might be a pain for dueling players.

Shouldn't be too difficult. Under the assumption that they are at Max level vampirism then some checks need to be done to whether the toon is wearing a disguise/mask. Shouldn't be difficult for the devs to implement it.

UrQuan

RogueShark wrote: »

I don't like the idea of the justice system affecting class skills or abilities tbh.
I mean if you make werewolves attackable, then it's going to suck for everyone who's running around and questing as WW. You already lose transformation enough when going into new zones or running from one objective to the next.
Vampires... why? How will they automatically know you're a vampire if you're covered head to toe? Would you expect someone to code that nightmare?
Why are necromancers suddenly being slapped with this justice system when for YEARS we have had sorcs strolling around nonchalantly with DAEDRA following them as DAEDRA attacked and killed people throughout Tamriel? Should that change? Hey have fun as a sorc being ported out of your dungeon with your pets and back into town and immediately being KOS by the guards.

It's inconsistent, it pointlessly affects gameplay, and there's no way to cover every contingency for everything that should be 'illegal'.

So what you're saying is that a sorcerer with pets out should be attacked by guards in towns. I'm sold!







Yes yes, I know that's the opposite of what you were actually saying, but I'm choosing to intentionally misunderstand you and run with your premise.

Girl_Number8

This is a horrible idea that would create more QoL issues for no good reason. With all the pets, polymorphs, duels, skill spams, this doesn't make sense.

Vampires are supposed to be unmatched when blending in but if you try to feed in public you will be attacked by the guards. Werewolves if they attack someone get attacked by the guards. Going this direction could be argued attack everyone from a different fraction that enters town, smh.

RogueShark

UrQuan wrote: »

Yes yes, I know that's the opposite of what you were actually saying, but I'm choosing to intentionally misunderstand you and run with your premise.

This is actually literally, in a sense, what I'm saying.
If they do it to necro then it better happen to sorc too otherwise it's even more ridiculous.

Xarico

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I think vampires should only produce this effect if they use a skill. Otherwise, this would just be inconvenient for them, and it would amount to a much worse punishment, because both necros and werewolves would be able to hide themselves, while vampire never really could other than...unranking themselves? Not sure how that really works. (Not a fan of the idea as a whole, and I don't even own a vampire or PVP in towns.)

Being starved down to stage 4 should be one hell of an inconvenience.
See, vampires are inherently comparatively inconvenient in a game that doesn't require eating/drinking/sleeping/using medicine from non-vampire characters, since they (and only they) do have a survival mechanic of sorts; that, or they are vampires in name only and are malnourished humans with a bunch of quirky passives in actuality. Currently, ESO chooses the second option. It's not a good option. It spoils this aspect of the game for almost everyone (people who want to play a vampire as they are shown in lore and quests, people who don't want to play a vampire but feel pressured to do so for the easy buffs, people who find their immersion wrecked by the dozens of starved vampires running around towns), with the only exceptions being minmaxers and broody edgelords with a very poor taste. The minmaxers don't care either way and will find something else to do, the "I want a cheap power fantasy with a dark OP antihero" people, well, you can't build a game around their preferences or you will end up with Coldsteel the Hedgeheg Online. Forcing a vampire character to feed, and making feeding interactive, useful, and lore- and common sense-friendly (i.e. damaging and potentially lethal to the victim) is a fun and healthy way to solve many of these problems.

Claudman

@Darlon @Skwor

How about this to solve the dilemma in general.
First of all, Skwor, I don't play vampires at all. lol

-Disguises keep vampires from being attacked for S4.
-Dueling potentially prohibited from towns (encouraging players to duel outside of towns/town instances to avoid guard troubles if they're a Necromancer, Werewolf or Vampire)

Werewolf isn't a coding issue, so that's easy to solve and disguises hide the player from enemies during quests (Disguises also hide the vampire appearance)...So why not have it hide S4 as well? It gives disguises a use outside quests and encourages players to keep them, but maybe they should update disguises to retain the normal appearance like crown cosmetics.

However, this is all peculiar, for it is rare for Zenimax to update base game stuff.

ElliottXO

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

iirc, feeding on a NPC as a vamp and getting witnessed already puts a bounty on you, and if so, vamps and necros are essentially on the same level. Feed and get caught; bounty. Raise the dead in town; bounty.

So transformed werewolves are the only exception atm.

But nobody is feeding in this game. They are all perma stage 4.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Claudman wrote: »

I can see transformed werewolves, but I don't know about vampires as you can hide your vampiric appearance with a disguise or a skin, so that would call for more scripting most likely. See, as much as Stendarr is a chad of the Divines, I don't think we could have attack-on-sight vampires...Werewolves maybe, though that might be a pain for dueling players.

You mean like dueling necromencer?

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Jolipinator wrote: »

To make it equal the vampires and werewolves would have to use skills from their skill lines.

Werewolf tranformation should count thought

Sylvermynx

Claudman wrote: »

I can see transformed werewolves, but I don't know about vampires as you can hide your vampiric appearance with a disguise or a skin, so that would call for more scripting most likely. See, as much as Stendarr is a chad of the Divines, I don't think we could have attack-on-sight vampires...Werewolves maybe, though that might be a pain for dueling players.

Maybe guards should have the ability to KNOW the vampire.... at least at S4.

Siohwenoeht

ElliottXO wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

iirc, feeding on a NPC as a vamp and getting witnessed already puts a bounty on you, and if so, vamps and necros are essentially on the same level. Feed and get caught; bounty. Raise the dead in town; bounty.

So transformed werewolves are the only exception atm.

But nobody is feeding in this game. They are all perma stage 4.

True, however, unless you're stockpiling bloody-mara then you'd be forcing vamps to feed, potentially getting caught and attacked, in order to avoid getting attacked...

Easiest solution I see is to simply put werewolf form into the justice system and then all three would be equal. Throw sorcs and their Flappy's in the mix too. Make it so all summons are outlawed inside major cities. You'd have to make sorc and Warden summons temporary as well, which wouldn't be well received, but hey, it makes everyone even.

max_only

I had something snarky to say but eh. Vampires, use a skill get killed, is that so hard?

ElliottXO

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

iirc, feeding on a NPC as a vamp and getting witnessed already puts a bounty on you, and if so, vamps and necros are essentially on the same level. Feed and get caught; bounty. Raise the dead in town; bounty.

So transformed werewolves are the only exception atm.

But nobody is feeding in this game. They are all perma stage 4.

True, however, unless you're stockpiling bloody-mara then you'd be forcing vamps to feed, potentially getting caught and attacked, in order to avoid getting attacked...

Easiest solution I see is to simply put werewolf form into the justice system and then all three would be equal. Throw sorcs and their Flappy's in the mix too. Make it so all summons are outlawed inside major cities. You'd have to make sorc and Warden summons temporary as well, which wouldn't be well received, but hey, it makes everyone even.

I'm not saying attack on sight, but attack when a vampire is using a vampire skill. Or we get rid of it all the way and necromancers also don't get it. Either or makes the most sense, also for WW.

Siohwenoeht

ElliottXO wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

iirc, feeding on a NPC as a vamp and getting witnessed already puts a bounty on you, and if so, vamps and necros are essentially on the same level. Feed and get caught; bounty. Raise the dead in town; bounty.

So transformed werewolves are the only exception atm.

But nobody is feeding in this game. They are all perma stage 4.

True, however, unless you're stockpiling bloody-mara then you'd be forcing vamps to feed, potentially getting caught and attacked, in order to avoid getting attacked...

Easiest solution I see is to simply put werewolf form into the justice system and then all three would be equal. Throw sorcs and their Flappy's in the mix too. Make it so all summons are outlawed inside major cities. You'd have to make sorc and Warden summons temporary as well, which wouldn't be well received, but hey, it makes everyone even.

I'm not saying attack on sight, but attack when a vampire is using a vampire skill. Or we get rid of it all the way and necromancers also don't get it. Either or makes the most sense, also for WW.

We pretty much agree then. OG post wanted just being stage 4 as the prerequisite for bounty/attack. If it's limited to using skills I'd be fine with it as that's the way it exists for vamps currently. Necromancers will have the same limitation which makes them equal to vamps in that sense. Only outliers are transformed werewolves and pet sorcs.

Mordenkainen

This would be an absolute crutch to people playing a vampire regardless if they are PvE, PvP or RP players.

Imaging having to sell during a leveling/grinding/whatever session and needing to feed before you can enter the city again just because you like those vampire passives so much. After selling, you have to increased your stage again. Believe it or not, there are people who actually play in a select stage and not just 1 or 4.

Another example would be Cyrodiil. Walk into your own Fort, get murdered by friendly soldiers.

Pretty much all dungeons have quest givers and some even npcs that follow you constantly. They might not attack since they are essential but you'd just keep having a bounty piled on your head and who wants to run a dungeon and leave with a 100k bounty on them? No one.

Then there are roleplayers who use varying stages of vampirism purely for aesthetics, plenty of them stage 4. And by my experience most of the RP community RPs vampirism as non-obvious unless the vampire explicitely does something to reveal them. Obvious reason; They couldn't RP anywhere otherwise or stunt their RP so far that roleplaying a vampire negates itself.

So no, this is a horrible idea and absolutely unnecessary. And to add my own 2cents; It seems more like people care more about how others play than how they themselves play the game.

Live and let live, folks.

AbysmalGhul

Some people really like punishing themselves and others

Xarico

Mordenkainen wrote: »

Imaging having to sell during a leveling/grinding/whatever session and needing to feed before you can enter the city again just because you like those vampire passives so much.

Sounds awesome.
If someone chooses to make their character a perma-stage 4 vampire because they like the passives too much, i.e. for efficiency, then they should have no issues with dropping vampirism as soon as it becomes less efficient. They didn't care for the vampire gameplay aspect either way.

Mordenkainen wrote: »

Another example would be Cyrodiil. Walk into your own Fort, get murdered by friendly soldiers.

Can be made an exception.

Mordenkainen wrote: »

Then there are roleplayers who use varying stages of vampirism purely for aesthetics, plenty of them stage 4. And by my experience most of the RP community RPs vampirism as non-obvious

So they ignore the rules of the setting that they RP in, as the setting clearly states that a starved vampire cannot hide its nature or act in a controlled manner, whereas a sated vampire doesn't look like an obvious monster. If this indeed describes most of the RP community, then the RP community is in sad shape, indeed.

Mordenkainen wrote: »

And to add my own 2cents; It seems more like people care more about how others play than how they themselves play the game.

Live and let live, folks.

But how I play the game is precisely what I care about. Frankly, I couldn't care less if someone wants to disregard the lore and their character's identity for the sake of aesthetics or DPS numbers (of course, I would still disagree that catering to such approaches is a good decision) if I could play my own character in a manner consistent with the actual in-game descriptions of what this character is supposed to experience. Which I can't.

Mordenkainen

Xarico wrote: »

Mordenkainen wrote: »

Imaging having to sell during a leveling/grinding/whatever session and needing to feed before you can enter the city again just because you like those vampire passives so much.

Sounds awesome.
If someone chooses to make their character a perma-stage 4 vampire because they like the passives too much, i.e. for efficiency, then they should have no issues with dropping vampirism as soon as it becomes less efficient. They didn't care for the vampire gameplay aspect either way.

Mordenkainen wrote: »

Another example would be Cyrodiil. Walk into your own Fort, get murdered by friendly soldiers.

Can be made an exception.

Mordenkainen wrote: »

Then there are roleplayers who use varying stages of vampirism purely for aesthetics, plenty of them stage 4. And by my experience most of the RP community RPs vampirism as non-obvious

So they ignore the rules of the setting that they RP in, as the setting clearly states that a starved vampire cannot hide its nature or act in a controlled manner, whereas a sated vampire doesn't look like an obvious monster. If this indeed describes most of the RP community, then the RP community is in sad shape, indeed.

Mordenkainen wrote: »

And to add my own 2cents; It seems more like people care more about how others play than how they themselves play the game.

Live and let live, folks.

But how I play the game is precisely what I care about. Frankly, I couldn't care less if someone wants to disregard the lore and their character's identity for the sake of aesthetics or DPS numbers (of course, I would still disagree that catering to such approaches is a good decision) if I could play my own character in a manner consistent with the actual in-game descriptions of what this character is supposed to experience. Which I can't.

Well fortunately a single person does not make up the entire community. And the RP shape is fine. I take a workaround that doesn't hurt lore over exclusion of people any day.

If accessibility is a sad shape for you in RP, I am glad to have never met you IC before.

Algraxa

Yes and Yes.... I play Vampire and WW and I agree 100%, for all the bonuses they apply with so little negatives in trade, this should be a socially restrictive decision.

Garethjolnir

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert or who ever else needs to see it, please consider!

idk

Claudman wrote: »

I can see transformed werewolves, but I don't know about vampires as you can hide your vampiric appearance with a disguise or a skin, so that would call for more scripting most likely. See, as much as Stendarr is a chad of the Divines, I don't think we could have attack-on-sight vampires...Werewolves maybe, though that might be a pain for dueling players.

This, and I do not think it is a matter that necromancers will be attacked by guards just because they were near one. It will probably require some action.

Also, vampires cannot really hide their appearance (outside of a skin). It takes work to get the vampire levels back up after reducing them. Just a poor idea considering how vampirism is designed in this game.

It just is not going to happen with the current design. Plain and simple.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Garethjolnir wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler or who ever else needs to see it, please consider!

Like they’re going to change the entire base game just for you eye roll 🙄

srnekro

Definitely on board with you brother.