Nerf Ball Groups

CyrusArya

Sacredx wrote: »

Why nerf ball groups? Because they make the effort to organise a team that works in synergy. This is not a natural advantage that zos gave them, this is hard work through sweat and tears, team dedication and organisation to make it happen. What people fail to recognise is that this applies to anyone, not just ball groups. Solo players and small groups can be just as effective.

I said this before they rightfully nerfed AoE caps, and I’ll say it again. I have no issues with ball Zergs having the natural advantages of superior numbers. Inherently, more numbers and superior organization should be stronger, and less numbers should be weaker. My bottom line however is that no advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on numbers beyond those numbers itself. And as has been posted many times here before, it makes no sense that the more challenging small scale playstyle should have to lose its mobility yet ball groups get to keep theirs.

If we lose our speed, you should too. Period. Nerf rapids.

VaranisArano

CyrusArya wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Why nerf ball groups? Because they make the effort to organise a team that works in synergy. This is not a natural advantage that zos gave them, this is hard work through sweat and tears, team dedication and organisation to make it happen. What people fail to recognise is that this applies to anyone, not just ball groups. Solo players and small groups can be just as effective.

I said this before they rightfully nerfed AoE caps, and I’ll say it again. I have no issues with ball Zergs having the natural advantages of superior numbers. Inherently, more numbers and superior organization should be stronger, and less numbers should be weaker. My bottom line however is that no advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on numbers beyond those numbers itself. And as has been posted many times here before, it makes no sense that the more challenging small scale playstyle should have to lose its mobility yet ball groups get to keep theirs.

If we lose our speed, you should too. Period. Nerf rapids.

ZOS wanted to make speed take greater effort to maintain. Guess who's willing to make that greater effort? Ball groups. They've got the numbers to have a rapids slave or spread out the rapids and still have damage and actually protect the person/people running rapids.

Nerf rapids? Guess who's still going to have the numbers and the organization to adapt? Ball groups. And you will still be slower than them.

I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue.

Ruckly

They should fix the chandelier lighting in tri-keeps.

Sacredx

CyrusArya wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Why nerf ball groups? Because they make the effort to organise a team that works in synergy. This is not a natural advantage that zos gave them, this is hard work through sweat and tears, team dedication and organisation to make it happen. What people fail to recognise is that this applies to anyone, not just ball groups. Solo players and small groups can be just as effective.

I said this before they rightfully nerfed AoE caps, and I’ll say it again. I have no issues with ball Zergs having the natural advantages of superior numbers. Inherently, more numbers and superior organization should be stronger, and less numbers should be weaker. My bottom line however is that no advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on numbers beyond those numbers itself. And as has been posted many times here before, it makes no sense that the more challenging small scale playstyle should have to lose its mobility yet ball groups get to keep theirs.

If we lose our speed, you should too. Period. Nerf rapids.

We don't even run dedicated rapids and manage just fine. The only players you will hurt are anyone other than ball groups so go right ahead.

frozywozy

Max speed was the problem. Not Snares removal abilities. Most people don't see the difference. Forward momentum should get back to at least 8 seconds. Swift nerf was fine and it was directed to both playstyles.

Dojohoda

Don't nerf organized groups, aka "ball groups" because ball groups will adapt and the rest of us will be nerfed.

Buff the server instead so we can bar swap when the ball rolls by.

Irylia

usmguy1234 wrote: »

dtsharples wrote: »

Delsskia wrote: »

These "ball group" threads always start off in the wrong direction and derail from there. The best thing ZOS could do is help the group players by creating a campaign for us. I would love to be able to consistently fight other guilds on a campaign that REQUIRED a group of 12 or more to even enter. Granted, there are a couple of guilds who prefer sheer numbers to actual tactics, but that's fine too. There would be a place for them too on a Guild v Guild campaign as long as population balance was maintained to some degree. And honestly, I think the guild groups could probably maintain that ourselves.

This is possibly the most sensible post on this topic yet.
But, it would require the community to make some changes themselves, instead of placing the blame on ZOS.
Petition ZOS to implement a Campaign that has a minimum requirement of 12 person groups, maximum of 18 persons.
That way you would immediately see the ball-groups that remained in the 'standard' campaign for what they are.

To be honest this could have been done already solely by the community, with no involvement from ZOS at all.
All that would be needed is an agreement that a particular campaign was for groups, another campaign for smaller scale, limiting the small scale campaign to 8 person teams maximum.
But as we see time and time again, what people say they want and what they actually want are very different things. Very few of the large groups that currently steam-roll over pugs / individuals would survive against other groups of the same size.

In all honesty ball groups are not going to want to fight each other... it's much easier ap to farm disorganized randoms than it would be to fight another organized group.

Or they zerg smaller organized groups down while being knee deep in their own faction.

Tm, Omni, tkg, knights of ni, Fantasia, and all the other random pug dc and ad large group guilds that primarily care about taking objectives (so those are more understandable)

On a resource, in a keep, Chase them whichever random way across the fields.
:feelsbadman:

Irylia

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

I entirely agree with that statement. Ball groups need to stop working and playing so well together. If people they fight need numbers over skills to kill them, it's definitely not their problems. Ball groups should either stop playing in a group like that or simply lower their skills / performances to help the zerg kill them faster and lower the latency for everyone.

Do you read? I dont blame them. I said that they are good players and they will always find a way to kill others doesnt matter what ZoS does. I just wanted to explain why the server lags and why it happens way more often when there are ball groups around.

No. What you should come up with is :

People need to learn and get better so they don't have to rely on 4x their numbers to kill them. End of story.

Don’t forget to post the clip of you wiping some organized raid using a bomber build and a teammate nova.

frozywozy

Irylia wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

I entirely agree with that statement. Ball groups need to stop working and playing so well together. If people they fight need numbers over skills to kill them, it's definitely not their problems. Ball groups should either stop playing in a group like that or simply lower their skills / performances to help the zerg kill them faster and lower the latency for everyone.

Do you read? I dont blame them. I said that they are good players and they will always find a way to kill others doesnt matter what ZoS does. I just wanted to explain why the server lags and why it happens way more often when there are ball groups around.

No. What you should come up with is :

People need to learn and get better so they don't have to rely on 4x their numbers to kill them. End of story.

Don’t forget to post the clip of you wiping some organized raid using a bomber build and a teammate nova.

I never said I was recording for that one and that I would post a clip of it. This being said, I will surely set OBS with a keybind to start recording for those occasions especially for you.

If you don't believe me, ask @Vixn ingame. I got 21 killing blows on that one.

Ender1310

VaranisArano wrote: »

Good luck. Large scale organized combat is exactly what Cyrodiil was originally designed for.

Its also hard to actually nerf them, because organized groups will adapt better than any less organized groups. For example, the AOE cap removal was supposed to benefit small groups vs large groups, but in practice the winners were (as usual) large organized groups vs everyone else.

Every personal skill that you nerf ends up hitting the solo player much harder than the big group as a poster has said. You should try BG's. I really like that format. If your server becomes a ball group fest then do some bg's.

Iskras

zyk wrote: »

It's really idiotic fighting large ball groups with anything else other than another ball group again. I'd say it's worse than 2.2 -- especially because ZOS nerfed mobility for everyone except large groups.

+ 1 agree! I do not know if 'nerf' will solve, maybe increase a few more sets (light set, especially) and make more skills like or caltrops, negate (sorc), time freeze. I think it would be a reasonable 'middle ground' between collective and individual interests.

Haashhtaag

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'll bite.

We're going to have a meeting with the devs.

OP, tell me, specifically without pouring a carton of Morton's on me, exactly what feedback you would like me to communicate to the devs that might attain your objective that does not involve tearing apart existing game mechanics and redesigning them in 6 weeks to suit your particular play-style at the exclusion of all others. Or nerfing the crap out of something you don't like, which will adversely affect the game when ball groups aren't around.

I would also think it would be helpful not to just throw around the term "ball-group" as if everyone group out there in cyrodiil with voice coms are all the same. The majority of "ball groups" out there quite frankly aren't super strong to warrant major changes and can fail to take defended keeps Vs. an similar amount of Pugs who know what they are doing.

Good players, whether alone, in small-group, or in a larger group are going to be hard to kill. At some point, people should stop asking ZOS to nerf good players.

For one, you could bring up the fact that all sorts of major expedition was nerfed but 1 skill, rapid maneuvers. This favors the ball groups and if a blanket nerf was going to be given to all forms of major expedition then this one deserves the same treatment.

Earthgore should not be able to remove ground ultimate's such as negate, nova, standard, etc. So dumb that a set can remove an ultimate ability. The heal should only apply to 1 person in the group, not everyone in the AOE. Healing as it currently stands is so strong.

Major/Minor snare system and buffing the time on FM/Shuffle to 5-6 seconds each.

Syhae

The day Earthgore is nerfed (which lets be honest will never happen) is the day ball zergs realize how strong the set was.
Ol Earthgore's back is really aching now a days.

Haashhtaag

frozywozy wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

The only thing that needs to be nerfed about ball groups is rapid maneuvers. Small scalers had to adapt to the loss of mobility, and so it makes no sense that organized raids shouldn’t have to do so as well.

No, the nerf was not needed at all for both playstyles since the snares already so hard to manage. What had to be nerfed for both playstyles was the max speed you can obtain by combining different mechanics and that was dealt with already.

There was no reason to reduce the duration of forward momentum, at least not that drastically and the proper change would be to revert what was done for Murkmire and bring it back to a good 8 seconds.

Hard to manage? You mean redsky complaining that y'all had to add a second rapids spammer?

Haashhtaag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzPww818CsI&t=8s

arkansas_ESO

I mean, addressing the rapids and purge spammers would be a great first step. There's no better example of the silly "lowering the ceiling and raising the floor" dogma that ESO has been designed around these past few years than the fact that builds that literally build to spam one skill and an ultimate are now essentially mandatory for group play.

VaranisArano wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Why nerf ball groups? Because they make the effort to organise a team that works in synergy. This is not a natural advantage that zos gave them, this is hard work through sweat and tears, team dedication and organisation to make it happen. What people fail to recognise is that this applies to anyone, not just ball groups. Solo players and small groups can be just as effective.

I said this before they rightfully nerfed AoE caps, and I’ll say it again. I have no issues with ball Zergs having the natural advantages of superior numbers. Inherently, more numbers and superior organization should be stronger, and less numbers should be weaker. My bottom line however is that no advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on numbers beyond those numbers itself. And as has been posted many times here before, it makes no sense that the more challenging small scale playstyle should have to lose its mobility yet ball groups get to keep theirs.

If we lose our speed, you should too. Period. Nerf rapids.

ZOS wanted to make speed take greater effort to maintain. Guess who's willing to make that greater effort? Ball groups. They've got the numbers to have a rapids slave or spread out the rapids and still have damage and actually protect the person/people running rapids.

Nerf rapids? Guess who's still going to have the numbers and the organization to adapt? Ball groups. And you will still be slower than them.

I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue.

Greater effort how? There is no "effort" put into having a rapids slave; you literally just tell one person to build for as much stam regen as possible and then spam one skill and an ultimate. These and purge spammers should outright not exist.

Joshlenoir

I wouldn't worry about ball groups too much. they're just a bunch of max level, veteran players who have never adjusted to be successful in PvP with less than 8 players

Xsorus

Every patch i've seen them do changes that will obviously benefit Ball Groups over everyone else...at this point after how many years? 4 or 5? we're still dealing with it there is no point complaining anymore....they don't care.

VaranisArano

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

I mean, addressing the rapids and purge spammers would be a great first step. There's no better example of the silly "lowering the ceiling and raising the floor" dogma that ESO has been designed around these past few years than the fact that builds that literally build to spam one skill and an ultimate are now essentially mandatory for group play.

VaranisArano wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Why nerf ball groups? Because they make the effort to organise a team that works in synergy. This is not a natural advantage that zos gave them, this is hard work through sweat and tears, team dedication and organisation to make it happen. What people fail to recognise is that this applies to anyone, not just ball groups. Solo players and small groups can be just as effective.

I said this before they rightfully nerfed AoE caps, and I’ll say it again. I have no issues with ball Zergs having the natural advantages of superior numbers. Inherently, more numbers and superior organization should be stronger, and less numbers should be weaker. My bottom line however is that no advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on numbers beyond those numbers itself. And as has been posted many times here before, it makes no sense that the more challenging small scale playstyle should have to lose its mobility yet ball groups get to keep theirs.

If we lose our speed, you should too. Period. Nerf rapids.

ZOS wanted to make speed take greater effort to maintain. Guess who's willing to make that greater effort? Ball groups. They've got the numbers to have a rapids slave or spread out the rapids and still have damage and actually protect the person/people running rapids.

Nerf rapids? Guess who's still going to have the numbers and the organization to adapt? Ball groups. And you will still be slower than them.

I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue.

Greater effort how? There is no "effort" put into having a rapids slave; you literally just tell one person to build for as much stam regen as possible and then spam one skill and an ultimate. These and purge spammers should outright not exist.

ZOS doesn't want players to be able to do damage AND be speedy, or be tanky AND be speedy or heal AND be speedy without making sacrifices in their builds. That's what I mean by "effort". In the same way as I might say ZOS wants MagSorcs to need greater effort (sacrifices in their builds) to maintain damage shields.

A "rapids slave" is built to do one thing. They've sacrificed everything else decent about their build to cast Rapids. They are dependent on their group for everything else, but in return, they provide a valuable utility to the group.

ZOS didnt nerf them because:
A. Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24
B. Having a dedicated rapids spammer fits in with ZOS wanting players to make greater effort/sacrifices to maintain their speediness. A raid has to sacrifice a player(s) and that player has to sacrifice their build to make it work.

Now, only large organized groups have the players to dedicate one or more players to spam rapids and the players to defend them. That's simply a strength of large organized group. - and nerfing rapids isnt going to change the ability of large organized groups to adapt to it. As I said, they'll just ask more people to do it.


You can look down on rapids and purge spammers for pushing one button all you like. They provide a valuable utility for their group that small groups and disorganized zergs cannot match - and they do so as team players. - And if you remove them entirely, an organized raid is a team. They'll adapt, and the simplest method is just to ask more people to run Purge and Rapids.

Again, I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue because the oeganized raids will just adjust and continue to be speedier than you.

leeux

I'd rather have my speed potions back than have rapids nerfed, in all honesty.

They just needed to make them not able to stack with swift and other speed buffs and everything was perfect as it was.

frozywozy

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

I mean, addressing the rapids and purge spammers would be a great first step. There's no better example of the silly "lowering the ceiling and raising the floor" dogma that ESO has been designed around these past few years than the fact that builds that literally build to spam one skill and an ultimate are now essentially mandatory for group play.

VaranisArano wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Why nerf ball groups? Because they make the effort to organise a team that works in synergy. This is not a natural advantage that zos gave them, this is hard work through sweat and tears, team dedication and organisation to make it happen. What people fail to recognise is that this applies to anyone, not just ball groups. Solo players and small groups can be just as effective.

I said this before they rightfully nerfed AoE caps, and I’ll say it again. I have no issues with ball Zergs having the natural advantages of superior numbers. Inherently, more numbers and superior organization should be stronger, and less numbers should be weaker. My bottom line however is that no advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on numbers beyond those numbers itself. And as has been posted many times here before, it makes no sense that the more challenging small scale playstyle should have to lose its mobility yet ball groups get to keep theirs.

If we lose our speed, you should too. Period. Nerf rapids.

ZOS wanted to make speed take greater effort to maintain. Guess who's willing to make that greater effort? Ball groups. They've got the numbers to have a rapids slave or spread out the rapids and still have damage and actually protect the person/people running rapids.

Nerf rapids? Guess who's still going to have the numbers and the organization to adapt? Ball groups. And you will still be slower than them.

I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue.

Greater effort how? There is no "effort" put into having a rapids slave; you literally just tell one person to build for as much stam regen as possible and then spam one skill and an ultimate. These and purge spammers should outright not exist.

Personally, I remember back when they nerfed Maneuvers and made the skill fade off when being healed or dealing damage. I was all up for it because I could not stand 24men ballgroups running in at full speed inside a breach with 4-5 sieges pointing at it. I wanted them to be slowed down and make them work harder to capture a well defended keep.

Maybe the right approach was to add features to objectives to slow people down even if they have maneuvers, and let it the way it was for openfield fights. as a result, groups would not have to use one dedicated player to spam maneuvers most of the time.

Just keep in mind that one way or another, it is not fair for an organized group to just get melted simply because they are getting zerged down. This game has no diminishing returns on ccs, roots, snares. As a result, there should be a mobility counter to kite and get away when largely outnumbered (swift, snares removal, etc).

Also, there should be counters to organized raids, and we already have them.

Last time we played we fought alot of very experienced players with some random DKs using the grip to pull players away from the raid at the right time, made us work much harder.

mague

frozywozy wrote: »

Last time we played we fought alot of very experienced players with some random DKs using the grip to pull players away from the raid at the right time, made us work much harder.

Or pull the healer out of his PUG. Everything is working both ways. Another frustration that keeps many from playing specialized in PUGs.

Cyrodiil is broken beyond repair. If i was in charge to repair it i would only allow light and heavy and the alliance skills while disabling any proc set. I could prove this by starting a "naked werewolf campaign". The organized still have advantage trough communications, but anything else would be equal.

frozywozy

mague wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Last time we played we fought alot of very experienced players with some random DKs using the grip to pull players away from the raid at the right time, made us work much harder.

Or pull the healer out of his PUG. Everything is working both ways. Another frustration that keeps many from playing specialized in PUGs.

Iskras

frozywozy wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

I mean, addressing the rapids and purge spammers would be a great first step. There's no better example of the silly "lowering the ceiling and raising the floor" dogma that ESO has been designed around these past few years than the fact that builds that literally build to spam one skill and an ultimate are now essentially mandatory for group play.

VaranisArano wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Why nerf ball groups? Because they make the effort to organise a team that works in synergy. This is not a natural advantage that zos gave them, this is hard work through sweat and tears, team dedication and organisation to make it happen. What people fail to recognise is that this applies to anyone, not just ball groups. Solo players and small groups can be just as effective.

I said this before they rightfully nerfed AoE caps, and I’ll say it again. I have no issues with ball Zergs having the natural advantages of superior numbers. Inherently, more numbers and superior organization should be stronger, and less numbers should be weaker. My bottom line however is that no advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on numbers beyond those numbers itself. And as has been posted many times here before, it makes no sense that the more challenging small scale playstyle should have to lose its mobility yet ball groups get to keep theirs.

If we lose our speed, you should too. Period. Nerf rapids.

ZOS wanted to make speed take greater effort to maintain. Guess who's willing to make that greater effort? Ball groups. They've got the numbers to have a rapids slave or spread out the rapids and still have damage and actually protect the person/people running rapids.

Nerf rapids? Guess who's still going to have the numbers and the organization to adapt? Ball groups. And you will still be slower than them.

I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue.

Greater effort how? There is no "effort" put into having a rapids slave; you literally just tell one person to build for as much stam regen as possible and then spam one skill and an ultimate. These and purge spammers should outright not exist.

Personally, I remember back when they nerfed Maneuvers and made the skill fade off when being healed or dealing damage. I was all up for it because I could not stand 24men ballgroups running in at full speed inside a breach with 4-5 sieges pointing at it. I wanted them to be slowed down and make them work harder to capture a well defended keep.

Maybe the right approach was to add features to objectives to slow people down even if they have maneuvers, and let it the way it was for openfield fights. as a result, groups would not have to use one dedicated player to spam maneuvers most of the time.

Just keep in mind that one way or another, it is not fair for an organized group to just get melted simply because they are getting zerged down. This game has no diminishing returns on ccs, roots, snares. As a result, there should be a mobility counter to kite and get away when largely outnumbered (swift, snares removal, etc).

Also, there should be counters to organized raids, and we already have them.

Last time we played we fought alot of very experienced players with some random DKs using the grip to pull players away from the raid at the right time, made us work much harder.

About zergball

Against the amazing guild Dracarys and your runs (RED, back to the game ), i try target Frozy and i die every single time

OneWarlord001

Increase the cost of the skill when you use it a second time within a certain time frame. You can tie it to group or solo. As a solo player I tend to use a wide range of skills in combat. Of course this will hurt me with rapid maneuver, but just a thought. I would rather boost non grouped players, but that is me being selfish.

arkansas_ESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

I mean, addressing the rapids and purge spammers would be a great first step. There's no better example of the silly "lowering the ceiling and raising the floor" dogma that ESO has been designed around these past few years than the fact that builds that literally build to spam one skill and an ultimate are now essentially mandatory for group play.

VaranisArano wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Why nerf ball groups? Because they make the effort to organise a team that works in synergy. This is not a natural advantage that zos gave them, this is hard work through sweat and tears, team dedication and organisation to make it happen. What people fail to recognise is that this applies to anyone, not just ball groups. Solo players and small groups can be just as effective.

I said this before they rightfully nerfed AoE caps, and I’ll say it again. I have no issues with ball Zergs having the natural advantages of superior numbers. Inherently, more numbers and superior organization should be stronger, and less numbers should be weaker. My bottom line however is that no advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on numbers beyond those numbers itself. And as has been posted many times here before, it makes no sense that the more challenging small scale playstyle should have to lose its mobility yet ball groups get to keep theirs.

If we lose our speed, you should too. Period. Nerf rapids.

ZOS wanted to make speed take greater effort to maintain. Guess who's willing to make that greater effort? Ball groups. They've got the numbers to have a rapids slave or spread out the rapids and still have damage and actually protect the person/people running rapids.

Nerf rapids? Guess who's still going to have the numbers and the organization to adapt? Ball groups. And you will still be slower than them.

I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue.

Greater effort how? There is no "effort" put into having a rapids slave; you literally just tell one person to build for as much stam regen as possible and then spam one skill and an ultimate. These and purge spammers should outright not exist.

ZOS doesn't want players to be able to do damage AND be speedy, or be tanky AND be speedy or heal AND be speedy without making sacrifices in their builds. That's what I mean by "effort". In the same way as I might say ZOS wants MagSorcs to need greater effort (sacrifices in their builds) to maintain damage shields.

A "rapids slave" is built to do one thing. They've sacrificed everything else decent about their build to cast Rapids. They are dependent on their group for everything else, but in return, they provide a valuable utility to the group.

ZOS didnt nerf them because:
A. Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24
B. Having a dedicated rapids spammer fits in with ZOS wanting players to make greater effort/sacrifices to maintain their speediness. A raid has to sacrifice a player(s) and that player has to sacrifice their build to make it work.

Now, only large organized groups have the players to dedicate one or more players to spam rapids and the players to defend them. That's simply a strength of large organized group. - and nerfing rapids isnt going to change the ability of large organized groups to adapt to it. As I said, they'll just ask more people to do it.


You can look down on rapids and purge spammers for pushing one button all you like. They provide a valuable utility for their group that small groups and disorganized zergs cannot match - and they do so as team players. - And if you remove them entirely, an organized raid is a team. They'll adapt, and the simplest method is just to ask more people to run Purge and Rapids.

Again, I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue because the oeganized raids will just adjust and continue to be speedier than you.

Does it really matter if they're sacrificing all damage for speed if in turn everybody else in their group can build for damage? These specialized utility roles are innately zerg-friendly because they let a zerg build to cover all of it's weaknesses while small groups simply can't dedicate people to these roles.

"They'll adapt, and the simplest method is just to ask more people to run Purge and Rapids."

This is why the group cap in Cyrodiil should be 12.

VaranisArano

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

I mean, addressing the rapids and purge spammers would be a great first step. There's no better example of the silly "lowering the ceiling and raising the floor" dogma that ESO has been designed around these past few years than the fact that builds that literally build to spam one skill and an ultimate are now essentially mandatory for group play.

VaranisArano wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Why nerf ball groups? Because they make the effort to organise a team that works in synergy. This is not a natural advantage that zos gave them, this is hard work through sweat and tears, team dedication and organisation to make it happen. What people fail to recognise is that this applies to anyone, not just ball groups. Solo players and small groups can be just as effective.

I said this before they rightfully nerfed AoE caps, and I’ll say it again. I have no issues with ball Zergs having the natural advantages of superior numbers. Inherently, more numbers and superior organization should be stronger, and less numbers should be weaker. My bottom line however is that no advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on numbers beyond those numbers itself. And as has been posted many times here before, it makes no sense that the more challenging small scale playstyle should have to lose its mobility yet ball groups get to keep theirs.

If we lose our speed, you should too. Period. Nerf rapids.

ZOS wanted to make speed take greater effort to maintain. Guess who's willing to make that greater effort? Ball groups. They've got the numbers to have a rapids slave or spread out the rapids and still have damage and actually protect the person/people running rapids.

Nerf rapids? Guess who's still going to have the numbers and the organization to adapt? Ball groups. And you will still be slower than them.

I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue.

Greater effort how? There is no "effort" put into having a rapids slave; you literally just tell one person to build for as much stam regen as possible and then spam one skill and an ultimate. These and purge spammers should outright not exist.

ZOS doesn't want players to be able to do damage AND be speedy, or be tanky AND be speedy or heal AND be speedy without making sacrifices in their builds. That's what I mean by "effort". In the same way as I might say ZOS wants MagSorcs to need greater effort (sacrifices in their builds) to maintain damage shields.

A "rapids slave" is built to do one thing. They've sacrificed everything else decent about their build to cast Rapids. They are dependent on their group for everything else, but in return, they provide a valuable utility to the group.

ZOS didnt nerf them because:
A. Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24
B. Having a dedicated rapids spammer fits in with ZOS wanting players to make greater effort/sacrifices to maintain their speediness. A raid has to sacrifice a player(s) and that player has to sacrifice their build to make it work.

Now, only large organized groups have the players to dedicate one or more players to spam rapids and the players to defend them. That's simply a strength of large organized group. - and nerfing rapids isnt going to change the ability of large organized groups to adapt to it. As I said, they'll just ask more people to do it.


You can look down on rapids and purge spammers for pushing one button all you like. They provide a valuable utility for their group that small groups and disorganized zergs cannot match - and they do so as team players. - And if you remove them entirely, an organized raid is a team. They'll adapt, and the simplest method is just to ask more people to run Purge and Rapids.

Again, I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue because the oeganized raids will just adjust and continue to be speedier than you.

Does it really matter if they're sacrificing all damage for speed if in turn everybody else in their group can build for damage? These specialized utility roles are innately zerg-friendly because they let a zerg build to cover all of it's weaknesses while small groups simply can't dedicate people to these roles.

"They'll adapt, and the simplest method is just to ask more people to run Purge and Rapids."

This is why the group cap in Cyrodiil should be 12.

Right, ZOS should totally change gameplay in Cyrodiil, which has always been intended for groups of up to 24 players, to better favor small groups who apparently can't handle organized groups of more than 12 players, LOL.

But I've repeated my preferred solution twice, and its clear you care more about nerfing larger groups than you do actually fixing the speed problem faced by small groups, so I think we're done debating here.

Have a great day.

Elong

VaranisArano wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

I mean, addressing the rapids and purge spammers would be a great first step. There's no better example of the silly "lowering the ceiling and raising the floor" dogma that ESO has been designed around these past few years than the fact that builds that literally build to spam one skill and an ultimate are now essentially mandatory for group play.

VaranisArano wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Why nerf ball groups? Because they make the effort to organise a team that works in synergy. This is not a natural advantage that zos gave them, this is hard work through sweat and tears, team dedication and organisation to make it happen. What people fail to recognise is that this applies to anyone, not just ball groups. Solo players and small groups can be just as effective.

I said this before they rightfully nerfed AoE caps, and I’ll say it again. I have no issues with ball Zergs having the natural advantages of superior numbers. Inherently, more numbers and superior organization should be stronger, and less numbers should be weaker. My bottom line however is that no advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on numbers beyond those numbers itself. And as has been posted many times here before, it makes no sense that the more challenging small scale playstyle should have to lose its mobility yet ball groups get to keep theirs.

If we lose our speed, you should too. Period. Nerf rapids.

ZOS wanted to make speed take greater effort to maintain. Guess who's willing to make that greater effort? Ball groups. They've got the numbers to have a rapids slave or spread out the rapids and still have damage and actually protect the person/people running rapids.

Nerf rapids? Guess who's still going to have the numbers and the organization to adapt? Ball groups. And you will still be slower than them.

I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue.

Greater effort how? There is no "effort" put into having a rapids slave; you literally just tell one person to build for as much stam regen as possible and then spam one skill and an ultimate. These and purge spammers should outright not exist.

ZOS doesn't want players to be able to do damage AND be speedy, or be tanky AND be speedy or heal AND be speedy without making sacrifices in their builds. That's what I mean by "effort". In the same way as I might say ZOS wants MagSorcs to need greater effort (sacrifices in their builds) to maintain damage shields.

A "rapids slave" is built to do one thing. They've sacrificed everything else decent about their build to cast Rapids. They are dependent on their group for everything else, but in return, they provide a valuable utility to the group.

ZOS didnt nerf them because:
A. Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24
B. Having a dedicated rapids spammer fits in with ZOS wanting players to make greater effort/sacrifices to maintain their speediness. A raid has to sacrifice a player(s) and that player has to sacrifice their build to make it work.

Now, only large organized groups have the players to dedicate one or more players to spam rapids and the players to defend them. That's simply a strength of large organized group. - and nerfing rapids isnt going to change the ability of large organized groups to adapt to it. As I said, they'll just ask more people to do it.


You can look down on rapids and purge spammers for pushing one button all you like. They provide a valuable utility for their group that small groups and disorganized zergs cannot match - and they do so as team players. - And if you remove them entirely, an organized raid is a team. They'll adapt, and the simplest method is just to ask more people to run Purge and Rapids.

Again, I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue because the oeganized raids will just adjust and continue to be speedier than you.

Does it really matter if they're sacrificing all damage for speed if in turn everybody else in their group can build for damage? These specialized utility roles are innately zerg-friendly because they let a zerg build to cover all of it's weaknesses while small groups simply can't dedicate people to these roles.

"They'll adapt, and the simplest method is just to ask more people to run Purge and Rapids."

This is why the group cap in Cyrodiil should be 12.

Right, ZOS should totally change gameplay in Cyrodiil, which has always been intended for groups of up to 24 players, to better favor small groups who apparently can't handle organized groups of more than 12 players, LOL.

But I've repeated my preferred solution twice, and its clear you care more about nerfing larger groups than you do actually fixing the speed problem faced by small groups, so I think we're done debating here.

Have a great day.

Yes they should, because ESO in 2018 can't handle 24 man groups, let alone 3 of them on one side alone. You keep talking about ESO like it's in the same state it was in at launch. It's in an absolute state. Something HAS to change. They AREN'T fixing this game.

VaranisArano

Elong wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

I mean, addressing the rapids and purge spammers would be a great first step. There's no better example of the silly "lowering the ceiling and raising the floor" dogma that ESO has been designed around these past few years than the fact that builds that literally build to spam one skill and an ultimate are now essentially mandatory for group play.

VaranisArano wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Why nerf ball groups? Because they make the effort to organise a team that works in synergy. This is not a natural advantage that zos gave them, this is hard work through sweat and tears, team dedication and organisation to make it happen. What people fail to recognise is that this applies to anyone, not just ball groups. Solo players and small groups can be just as effective.

I said this before they rightfully nerfed AoE caps, and I’ll say it again. I have no issues with ball Zergs having the natural advantages of superior numbers. Inherently, more numbers and superior organization should be stronger, and less numbers should be weaker. My bottom line however is that no advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on numbers beyond those numbers itself. And as has been posted many times here before, it makes no sense that the more challenging small scale playstyle should have to lose its mobility yet ball groups get to keep theirs.

If we lose our speed, you should too. Period. Nerf rapids.

ZOS wanted to make speed take greater effort to maintain. Guess who's willing to make that greater effort? Ball groups. They've got the numbers to have a rapids slave or spread out the rapids and still have damage and actually protect the person/people running rapids.

Nerf rapids? Guess who's still going to have the numbers and the organization to adapt? Ball groups. And you will still be slower than them.

I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue.

Greater effort how? There is no "effort" put into having a rapids slave; you literally just tell one person to build for as much stam regen as possible and then spam one skill and an ultimate. These and purge spammers should outright not exist.

ZOS doesn't want players to be able to do damage AND be speedy, or be tanky AND be speedy or heal AND be speedy without making sacrifices in their builds. That's what I mean by "effort". In the same way as I might say ZOS wants MagSorcs to need greater effort (sacrifices in their builds) to maintain damage shields.

A "rapids slave" is built to do one thing. They've sacrificed everything else decent about their build to cast Rapids. They are dependent on their group for everything else, but in return, they provide a valuable utility to the group.

ZOS didnt nerf them because:
A. Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24
B. Having a dedicated rapids spammer fits in with ZOS wanting players to make greater effort/sacrifices to maintain their speediness. A raid has to sacrifice a player(s) and that player has to sacrifice their build to make it work.

Now, only large organized groups have the players to dedicate one or more players to spam rapids and the players to defend them. That's simply a strength of large organized group. - and nerfing rapids isnt going to change the ability of large organized groups to adapt to it. As I said, they'll just ask more people to do it.


You can look down on rapids and purge spammers for pushing one button all you like. They provide a valuable utility for their group that small groups and disorganized zergs cannot match - and they do so as team players. - And if you remove them entirely, an organized raid is a team. They'll adapt, and the simplest method is just to ask more people to run Purge and Rapids.

Again, I'd far rather ZOS revert speed to a pre-Swift state. That will do far more to help your small groups rather than asking for nerfs to rapids that isnt actually going to really solve your issue because the oeganized raids will just adjust and continue to be speedier than you.

Does it really matter if they're sacrificing all damage for speed if in turn everybody else in their group can build for damage? These specialized utility roles are innately zerg-friendly because they let a zerg build to cover all of it's weaknesses while small groups simply can't dedicate people to these roles.

"They'll adapt, and the simplest method is just to ask more people to run Purge and Rapids."

This is why the group cap in Cyrodiil should be 12.

Right, ZOS should totally change gameplay in Cyrodiil, which has always been intended for groups of up to 24 players, to better favor small groups who apparently can't handle organized groups of more than 12 players, LOL.

But I've repeated my preferred solution twice, and its clear you care more about nerfing larger groups than you do actually fixing the speed problem faced by small groups, so I think we're done debating here.

Have a great day.

Yes they should, because ESO in 2018 can't handle 24 man groups, let alone 3 of them on one side alone. You keep talking about ESO like it's in the same state it was in at launch. It's in an absolute state. Something HAS to change. They AREN'T fixing this game.

Dropping to 12 man groups isn't going to help if the problem is the total number of players all at one important objective.

Like the joke about DC. "DC never zergs! Those are all 4 man groups, all 20 of them."

At a certain point, it doesnt matter how many people are in the group - it matters how many people show up in one spot. AotP's strategy from the other complain thread is another example. Dropping their raids to 12 people each isn't actually going to change the strategy of sending 72 people to the same objective.

Irylia

Lower campaign pop by 20 per
Faction, make shor a 30 day and cp scoring is rallied together (shor + viv) now guilds need to work together with same faction groups to maintain the balance between two campaigns so one faction doesn’t get out of control and perma cap shor.