Nerf Ball Groups

Xarc

Ball groups never fight other ball groups, so please stop with "they have to learn to play to kill us".
You guys in ball groups, just want to farm unorganised people and feel good with easy points and farming "lfg groups".

If you really want to feel strong, you know where to go.

Once that said, I don't know if ball groups need to be nerfed.

• Yes, there are ways to fight them, and people have to learn how to do it.
• But even if you know how to do, you have to be in organised defense to do it, unless you're yourslef in a ballgroup. That makes the feeling you can't do anything against them.
• people who know how to fight ballgroups, but not in organised defense (or beeing unorganised zerg defending) dont stay to defend because they know it's useless.

VaranisArano

Xarcus wrote: »

Ball groups never fight other ball groups, so please stop with "they have to learn to play to kill us".
You guys in ball groups, just want to farm unorganised people and feel good with easy points and farming "lfg groups".

If you really want to feel strong, you know where to go.

Once that said, I don't know if ball groups need to be nerfed.

• Yes, there are ways to fight them, and people have to learn how to do it.
• But even if you know how to do, you have to be in organised defense to do it, unless you're yourslef in a ballgroup. That makes the feeling you can't do anything against them.
• people who know how to fight ballgroups, but not in organised defense (or beeing unorganised zerg defending) dont stay to defend because they know it's useless.

I don't know if this is a platform difference, but on PC/NA Vivec, the larger organized raids clash fairly often when capturing keeps. Sure, there's plenty of farming PUGs and battling the disorganized zerg, but its not like we avoid each other at objectives.

But yes, I agree that its easy to feel useless if I'm zerg surfing trying to deal with an organized raid. Not much a single healer can do about it, you know?Usually because I'm face palming as my fellow PUGs keep running out to get farmed, and I'm grumbling "if I were with my raid, we'd give these guys a proper fight!"

usmguy1234

dtsharples wrote: »

Delsskia wrote: »

These "ball group" threads always start off in the wrong direction and derail from there. The best thing ZOS could do is help the group players by creating a campaign for us. I would love to be able to consistently fight other guilds on a campaign that REQUIRED a group of 12 or more to even enter. Granted, there are a couple of guilds who prefer sheer numbers to actual tactics, but that's fine too. There would be a place for them too on a Guild v Guild campaign as long as population balance was maintained to some degree. And honestly, I think the guild groups could probably maintain that ourselves.

This is possibly the most sensible post on this topic yet.
But, it would require the community to make some changes themselves, instead of placing the blame on ZOS.
Petition ZOS to implement a Campaign that has a minimum requirement of 12 person groups, maximum of 18 persons.
That way you would immediately see the ball-groups that remained in the 'standard' campaign for what they are.

To be honest this could have been done already solely by the community, with no involvement from ZOS at all.
All that would be needed is an agreement that a particular campaign was for groups, another campaign for smaller scale, limiting the small scale campaign to 8 person teams maximum.
But as we see time and time again, what people say they want and what they actually want are very different things. Very few of the large groups that currently steam-roll over pugs / individuals would survive against other groups of the same size.

In all honesty ball groups are not going to want to fight each other... it's much easier ap to farm disorganized randoms than it would be to fight another organized group.

Lieblingsjunge

Xarcus wrote: »

Ball groups never fight other ball groups, so please stop with "they have to learn to play to kill us".
You guys in ball groups, just want to farm unorganised people and feel good with easy points and farming "lfg groups".

If you really want to feel strong, you know where to go.

Once that said, I don't know if ball groups need to be nerfed.

• Yes, there are ways to fight them, and people have to learn how to do it.
• But even if you know how to do, you have to be in organised defense to do it, unless you're yourslef in a ballgroup. That makes the feeling you can't do anything against them.
• people who know how to fight ballgroups, but not in organised defense (or beeing unorganised zerg defending) dont stay to defend because they know it's useless.

Ball groups never fight other ball groups, now that's a lie. I can't speak for the rest of the ball groups, but I *CAN* speak for ZS on Sotha Sil EU/PC. Yesterday on Sotha, most of our 2,5h raid was spent fighting one of the raids, or juggling Arkadium(semi-organised) with pugs on Arrius. Or fighting somewhere else, but we always fought at least some kind of (semi) organised.

Also Schatten Konvent, Pantherra, Les Loups du Nord(I apologise if I misspelled your guild names!) are all EP-groups ZS have been fighting recently.

Challenging fights and fighting outnumbered is ZS' goal. It sure as [snip] increases the difficulty level if you add a hostile organised group to the equation, which is what's fun. I can assure you, farming the 30 brainless non-grouped pugs in Kingscrest gets boring after ~5 minutes tops. The only challenge there are rollbacks. :^

---

There is *ONE* thing that is wrong with most of the comments in this thread or with threads like these in general. It is that they're made with complete ignorance and a "omfg cant beat them"-mindset. People that never played in a ball group that fought on an organised-level, have no idea what they're talking about, rofl. And it's honestly sad to derail a discussion based on straight up ignorance.

frozywozy

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Ball groups never fight other ball groups, now that's a lie.

People saying this usually don't play in any of those groups and speculate from their own observations which represent nowhere near the reality and what is truly happening. They say it because they hate the playstyle and they won't miss an opportunity to diminish, bash or laugh about it.

Delsskia

Fantasia always prefer to fight groups. Preferably other organized guild groups but even when we're playing the map the goal is generally to draw large groups to our location. Our fave fights tend to be with Dracarys, but all of the organized groups provide a good challenge and large numbers of solo players combined with small groups can prove VERY challenging.

I'll give you a tip on how to fight an organized group. Our strength can also be our weakness. Once we do an Ulti dump we are vulnerable and if we don't or can't spread out quickly enough to counter an opposing Ulti dump, we can be had. Also, if the group we're fighting stays spread out, we're limited to more single target skills and the fight can get very drawn out. Sooner or later while maneuvering to more favorable terrain someone will make a mistake and sometimes that's us.

The point is that organized groups are not invulnerable, we just present different challenges.

VaranisArano

Delsskia wrote: »

Fantasia always prefer to fight groups. Preferably other organized guild groups but even when we're playing the map the goal is generally to draw large groups to our location. Our fave fights tend to be with Dracarys, but all of the organized groups provide a good challenge and large numbers of solo players combined with small groups can prove VERY challenging.

I'll give you a tip on how to fight an organized group. Our strength can also be our weakness. Once we do an Ulti dump we are vulnerable and if we don't or can't spread out quickly enough to counter an opposing Ulti dump, we can be had. Also, if the group we're fighting stays spread out, we're limited to more single target skills and the fight can get very drawn out. Sooner or later while maneuvering to more favorable terrain someone will make a mistake and sometimes that's us.

The point is that organized groups are not invulnerable, we just present different challenges.

Thats pretty accurate about how to defeat an organized raid.

The problem people keep complaining about with those tips is that the disorganized zerg isnt organized enough to take advantage of that weakness and the organized small man groups usually dont have the numbers to take advantage of it and press the attack home in a high lag situation.

I'm sympathetic to the lag issue, but thats on ZOS to fix.

To the zerg, I say "get organized."
To the organized small man, I say "you took on a larger group of organized players, what did you think was going to happen?"

To ZOS, I say "Fix the game performance already, so everyone can have a fighting chance!"

GimpyPorcupine

Iki wrote: »

Remove cast-time from inevitable detonation.

Make catapults ammo travel faster, so it would be easier to hit moving targets, rate of fire should remain as it is tho.

Purge and rapid maneuvers should have self-only and group morphs. For example: efficient purge should only purge caster for a low-cost while other morph would also purge allies but for significantly higher cost, same with rapids.

Removing the cast time from inevitable would do wonders.

For Rapid Maneuver, another idea would be to make its duration inversely proportional to the number of targets hit. 40 seconds if it only hits the caster, 10 seconds if it hits a group of 24.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

Iki wrote: »

Remove cast-time from inevitable detonation.

Make catapults ammo travel faster, so it would be easier to hit moving targets, rate of fire should remain as it is tho.

Purge and rapid maneuvers should have self-only and group morphs. For example: efficient purge should only purge caster for a low-cost while other morph would also purge allies but for significantly higher cost, same with rapids.

Removing the cast time from inevitable would do wonders.

For Rapid Maneuver, another idea would be to make its duration inversely proportional to the number of targets hit. 40 seconds if it only hits the caster, 10 seconds if it hits a group of 24.

Rapids is already dispelled if you use an abilitiy, that's why there's a member of the balls who's entire job is to spam rapids constantly. Usually a stam sorc.

Reducing the duration isn't a solution, but limiting the targets to 4 allies would work nicely.

Also, earthgore is a bit of a problem, I'm not sure how you balance it but its current incarnation is too much.

MLRPZ

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

Iki wrote: »

Remove cast-time from inevitable detonation.

Make catapults ammo travel faster, so it would be easier to hit moving targets, rate of fire should remain as it is tho.

Purge and rapid maneuvers should have self-only and group morphs. For example: efficient purge should only purge caster for a low-cost while other morph would also purge allies but for significantly higher cost, same with rapids.

Removing the cast time from inevitable would do wonders.

For Rapid Maneuver, another idea would be to make its duration inversely proportional to the number of targets hit. 40 seconds if it only hits the caster, 10 seconds if it hits a group of 24.

Rapids is already dispelled if you use an abilitiy, that's why there's a member of the balls who's entire job is to spam rapids constantly. Usually a stam sorc.

Reducing the duration isn't a solution, but limiting the targets to 4 allies would work nicely.

Also, earthgore is a bit of a problem, I'm not sure how you balance it but its current incarnation is too much.

I honnestly don't get why people are so mad about rapids. this skill got hurt pretty badly in the past and you still have to do a decent trade off to have it up as much as possible. I play my fair share of "potato build" on CP but mostly on non CP campaign and I would actually be curious of global uptime of retreating maneuver on my group members. Sure it didn't get touch this patch where all of the mobility tool got nerfed but the reason behind this in my opinion is that "speed build" were just vastly overperforming. Mostly because of broken game mechanics, and rapid is not one of them.

In a more general way, I think that people are mostly mad about snare removal and I do agree that FM for example took too big of a nerf.
But I still play some smallscale and the speed loss has never been an issue for me since the patch dropped.

Vapirko

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

please explain to me how you expect ZOS to nerf something for a ball group without effecting anyone else? Ball groups are able to combine different things that work and coordinate that together to win. Anything you nerf they'll just find something else, or use that nerf to take advantage of the fact that they can kill other people easier now because THOSE people were effected by that same nerf.

Do you know how you fight a ballgroup? You get yourself a ballgroup because you aren't going to be able to solo it or kill it with an uncoordinated mess. Asking for nerfs because you're fighting a group that outclasses you without knowing what you want nerfed is crazy. You don't even know WHAT you want nerfed. You want... grouping... nerfed? You could literally remove the ability for people to group in Cyrodiil and ball groups would be just fine, because they use voice comms.

If you really want to fight ball groups, quit salting and go make a ball group to fight them with.

Not true. Most ball groups are made up of incredibly bad players. It’s entirely possible to take on a smaller balll group of 10 with just two or three people and easily with half their number. You know how you nerf a ball group? Take out the Zerg sets and skills, particularly earthgore and bubbles which is far too powerful with a giant AOE to be a spammable. Teams should not be able to constantly have this up. (I’ve not forgotten the actual name of this psijic skill). You then reverse some of the mobility nerfs, give magicka players speed pots, give FM a couple more seconds of snare immunity back, give shuffle more snare immunity. Make one morph of rapids usable only when riding a mount and bring the other morph (with snare removal) in line with other forms of major expedition. There’s a few ideas to get started.

JoyDivsion

You know why organized groups can spam Time Stop and stack Earthgore?

Its because they are organized.

They can tell their players "Hey, X number of you run Time Stop and X number of you run Earthgore."

If its not Earthgore and Time Stop, its Permafrost, Sub Assault, Spin To Win, Destro ultimate...heck, anything that's even remotely strong an organized group will use better than anyone else. Because they are more organized than the disorganized PUG groups and larger than the organized small scale groups.

Nerf Rapid Maneuvers?

Organized Raid: "Alright. Guys, we need another "rapids slave" or X number of people start using rapids."

Nerf the stuff they use and they'll move on to the next thing. Its surprisingly hard to nerf organization when Cyrodiil was originally designed for large organized groups. I've been PUGing and playing in a large organized raid since before Morrowind, and at no point did any of the combat changes ever seriously threaten the dominance of the large organized raids (my factions or the enemies) on the battlefield. The one thing that actually caused problems for the raids, believe it or not, was the change to catapults doing increased damage, which made it much harder to capture well-defended keeps.

Sure but 30 seconds of major expedition available to your group is much easier than making sure someone is maintaining it every 4 seconds. I mean if solo and small scale players have to deal with heavily reduced mobility why shouldn’t big groups as well? And if you think earhtgore doesn’t enable unskilled players and the majority of ball groups to avoid death then i think we play in different versions of PvP. I’ve watched earthgore save people many times while they lay on the ground CCd. As for bubbles I’m simply saying that such a large AOE with such powerful effects should not be a spammable. I can’t imagine why you’d be against trying to balance this stuff unless you’re part of the groups that use it all.

Also, I realize that big groups will always find some way to adap and that’s fine. I’m not complaining about every single skill and tactic they use. But I think it should be obvious that we need to continue to keep in check the few skills/sets that emerge as being overly powerful. We stoood up to the destro train meta, the stambalde instakill meta, proc sets in general, and those were all good things and we should continue to do so. Right now Earthgore continues to heavily alter the outcome of combat without input from the player which imo should be looked at. Why do groups need a huge AOE CC that prevents healing and is arguably as strong as some ults in its effect?

VaranisArano

Vapirko wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

please explain to me how you expect ZOS to nerf something for a ball group without effecting anyone else? Ball groups are able to combine different things that work and coordinate that together to win. Anything you nerf they'll just find something else, or use that nerf to take advantage of the fact that they can kill other people easier now because THOSE people were effected by that same nerf.

Do you know how you fight a ballgroup? You get yourself a ballgroup because you aren't going to be able to solo it or kill it with an uncoordinated mess. Asking for nerfs because you're fighting a group that outclasses you without knowing what you want nerfed is crazy. You don't even know WHAT you want nerfed. You want... grouping... nerfed? You could literally remove the ability for people to group in Cyrodiil and ball groups would be just fine, because they use voice comms.

If you really want to fight ball groups, quit salting and go make a ball group to fight them with.

Not true. Most ball groups are made up of incredibly bad players. It’s entirely possible to take on a smaller balll group of 10 with just two or three people and easily with half their number. You know how you nerf a ball group? Take out the Zerg sets and skills, particularly earthgore and bubbles which is far too powerful with a giant AOE to be a spammable. Teams should not be able to constantly have this up. (I’ve not forgotten the actual name of this psijic skill). You then reverse some of the mobility nerfs, give magicka players speed pots, give FM a couple more seconds of snare immunity back, give shuffle more snare immunity. Make one morph of rapids usable only when riding a mount and bring the other morph (with snare removal) in line with other forms of major expedition. There’s a few ideas to get started.

JoyDivsion

You know why organized groups can spam Time Stop and stack Earthgore?

Its because they are organized.

They can tell their players "Hey, X number of you run Time Stop and X number of you run Earthgore."

If its not Earthgore and Time Stop, its Permafrost, Sub Assault, Spin To Win, Destro ultimate...heck, anything that's even remotely strong an organized group will use better than anyone else. Because they are more organized than the disorganized PUG groups and larger than the organized small scale groups.

Nerf Rapid Maneuvers?

Organized Raid: "Alright. Guys, we need another "rapids slave" or X number of people start using rapids."

Nerf the stuff they use and they'll move on to the next thing. Its surprisingly hard to nerf organization when Cyrodiil was originally designed for large organized groups. I've been PUGing and playing in a large organized raid since before Morrowind, and at no point did any of the combat changes ever seriously threaten the dominance of the large organized raids (my factions or the enemies) on the battlefield. The one thing that actually caused problems for the raids, believe it or not, was the change to catapults doing increased damage, which made it much harder to capture well-defended keeps.

Sure but 30 seconds of major expedition available to your group is much easier than making sure someone is maintaining it every 4 seconds. I mean if solo and small scale players have to deal with heavily reduced mobility why shouldn’t big groups as well? And if you think earhtgore doesn’t enable unskilled players and the majority of ball groups to avoid death then i think we play in different versions of PvP. I’ve watched earthgore save people many times while they lay on the ground CCd. As for bubbles I’m simply saying that such a large AOE with such powerful effects should not be a spammable. I can’t imagine why you’d be against trying to balance this stuff unless you’re part of the groups that use it all.

Also, I realize that big groups will always find some way to adap and that’s fine. I’m not complaining about every single skill and tactic they use. But I think it should be obvious that we need to continue to keep in check the few skills/sets that emerge as being overly powerful. We stoood up to the destro train meta, the stambalde instakill meta, proc sets in general, and those were all good things and we should continue to do so. Right now Earthgore continues to heavily alter the outcome of combat without input from the player which imo should be looked at. Why do groups need a huge AOE CC that prevents healing and is arguably as strong as some ults in its effect?

I generally agree on Earthgore.

I disagree with your description of rapids. Since Rapids goes away when you cast skills or heals, the only time a group gets 30 second of major expedition is when riding. In combat, most groups do tell someone or multiple players to maintain rapids every 4-8 seconds anyways because everyone is constantly casting and needing rapids recast on them. The reason large groups maintained their mobility is because they can have players dedicated to spamming rapids, where small groups simply can't afford to have one player doing nothing but rapids. Nerf the duration of rapids or increase the cost, and the organized raids will just adjust how they already spam rapids with a rapids slave or sharing the burden - and small groups still wont be able to compete. (The real solution is reverting some of the speed nerfs to give small groups an option for speed, but that's up to ZOS, not me.)

JAwtunes

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

please explain to me how you expect ZOS to nerf something for a ball group without effecting anyone else? Ball groups are able to combine different things that work and coordinate that together to win. Anything you nerf they'll just find something else, or use that nerf to take advantage of the fact that they can kill other people easier now because THOSE people were effected by that same nerf.

Do you know how you fight a ballgroup? You get yourself a ballgroup because you aren't going to be able to solo it or kill it with an uncoordinated mess. Asking for nerfs because you're fighting a group that outclasses you without knowing what you want nerfed is crazy. You don't even know WHAT you want nerfed. You want... grouping... nerfed? You could literally remove the ability for people to group in Cyrodiil and ball groups would be just fine, because they use voice comms.

If you really want to fight ball groups, quit salting and go make a ball group to fight them with.

Not true. Most ball groups are made up of incredibly bad players. It’s entirely possible to take on a smaller balll group of 10 with just two or three people and easily with half their number. You know how you nerf a ball group? Take out the Zerg sets and skills, particularly earthgore and bubbles which is far too powerful with a giant AOE to be a spammable. Teams should not be able to constantly have this up. (I’ve not forgotten the actual name of this psijic skill). You then reverse some of the mobility nerfs, give magicka players speed pots, give FM a couple more seconds of snare immunity back, give shuffle more snare immunity. Make one morph of rapids usable only when riding a mount and bring the other morph (with snare removal) in line with other forms of major expedition. There’s a few ideas to get started.

JoyDivsion

You know why organized groups can spam Time Stop and stack Earthgore?

Its because they are organized.

They can tell their players "Hey, X number of you run Time Stop and X number of you run Earthgore."

If its not Earthgore and Time Stop, its Permafrost, Sub Assault, Spin To Win, Destro ultimate...heck, anything that's even remotely strong an organized group will use better than anyone else. Because they are more organized than the disorganized PUG groups and larger than the organized small scale groups.

Nerf Rapid Maneuvers?

Organized Raid: "Alright. Guys, we need another "rapids slave" or X number of people start using rapids."

Nerf the stuff they use and they'll move on to the next thing. Its surprisingly hard to nerf organization when Cyrodiil was originally designed for large organized groups. I've been PUGing and playing in a large organized raid since before Morrowind, and at no point did any of the combat changes ever seriously threaten the dominance of the large organized raids (my factions or the enemies) on the battlefield. The one thing that actually caused problems for the raids, believe it or not, was the change to catapults doing increased damage, which made it much harder to capture well-defended keeps.

Sure but 30 seconds of major expedition available to your group is much easier than making sure someone is maintaining it every 4 seconds. I mean if solo and small scale players have to deal with heavily reduced mobility why shouldn’t big groups as well? And if you think earhtgore doesn’t enable unskilled players and the majority of ball groups to avoid death then i think we play in different versions of PvP. I’ve watched earthgore save people many times while they lay on the ground CCd. As for bubbles I’m simply saying that such a large AOE with such powerful effects should not be a spammable. I can’t imagine why you’d be against trying to balance this stuff unless you’re part of the groups that use it all.

Also, I realize that big groups will always find some way to adap and that’s fine. I’m not complaining about every single skill and tactic they use. But I think it should be obvious that we need to continue to keep in check the few skills/sets that emerge as being overly powerful. We stoood up to the destro train meta, the stambalde instakill meta, proc sets in general, and those were all good things and we should continue to do so. Right now Earthgore continues to heavily alter the outcome of combat without input from the player which imo should be looked at. Why do groups need a huge AOE CC that prevents healing and is arguably as strong as some ults in its effect?

I generally agree on Earthgore.

I disagree with your description of rapids. Since Rapids goes away when you cast skills or heals, the only time a group gets 30 second of major expedition is when riding. In combat, most groups do tell someone or multiple players to maintain rapids every 4-8 seconds anyways because everyone is constantly casting and needing rapids recast on them. The reason large groups maintained their mobility is because they can have players dedicated to spamming rapids, where small groups simply can't afford to have one player doing nothing but rapids. Nerf the duration of rapids or increase the cost, and the organized raids will just adjust how they already spam rapids with a rapids slave or sharing the burden - and small groups still wont be able to compete. (The real solution is reverting some of the speed nerfs to give small groups an option for speed, but that's up to ZOS, not me.)

This is abuse of zerglings. End slavery for all!

Jimmy_The_Fixer

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

please explain to me how you expect ZOS to nerf something for a ball group without effecting anyone else? Ball groups are able to combine different things that work and coordinate that together to win. Anything you nerf they'll just find something else, or use that nerf to take advantage of the fact that they can kill other people easier now because THOSE people were effected by that same nerf.

Do you know how you fight a ballgroup? You get yourself a ballgroup because you aren't going to be able to solo it or kill it with an uncoordinated mess. Asking for nerfs because you're fighting a group that outclasses you without knowing what you want nerfed is crazy. You don't even know WHAT you want nerfed. You want... grouping... nerfed? You could literally remove the ability for people to group in Cyrodiil and ball groups would be just fine, because they use voice comms.

If you really want to fight ball groups, quit salting and go make a ball group to fight them with.

Not true. Most ball groups are made up of incredibly bad players. It’s entirely possible to take on a smaller balll group of 10 with just two or three people and easily with half their number. You know how you nerf a ball group? Take out the Zerg sets and skills, particularly earthgore and bubbles which is far too powerful with a giant AOE to be a spammable. Teams should not be able to constantly have this up. (I’ve not forgotten the actual name of this psijic skill). You then reverse some of the mobility nerfs, give magicka players speed pots, give FM a couple more seconds of snare immunity back, give shuffle more snare immunity. Make one morph of rapids usable only when riding a mount and bring the other morph (with snare removal) in line with other forms of major expedition. There’s a few ideas to get started.

JoyDivsion

You know why organized groups can spam Time Stop and stack Earthgore?

Its because they are organized.

They can tell their players "Hey, X number of you run Time Stop and X number of you run Earthgore."

If its not Earthgore and Time Stop, its Permafrost, Sub Assault, Spin To Win, Destro ultimate...heck, anything that's even remotely strong an organized group will use better than anyone else. Because they are more organized than the disorganized PUG groups and larger than the organized small scale groups.

Nerf Rapid Maneuvers?

Organized Raid: "Alright. Guys, we need another "rapids slave" or X number of people start using rapids."

Nerf the stuff they use and they'll move on to the next thing. Its surprisingly hard to nerf organization when Cyrodiil was originally designed for large organized groups. I've been PUGing and playing in a large organized raid since before Morrowind, and at no point did any of the combat changes ever seriously threaten the dominance of the large organized raids (my factions or the enemies) on the battlefield. The one thing that actually caused problems for the raids, believe it or not, was the change to catapults doing increased damage, which made it much harder to capture well-defended keeps.

Sure but 30 seconds of major expedition available to your group is much easier than making sure someone is maintaining it every 4 seconds. I mean if solo and small scale players have to deal with heavily reduced mobility why shouldn’t big groups as well? And if you think earhtgore doesn’t enable unskilled players and the majority of ball groups to avoid death then i think we play in different versions of PvP. I’ve watched earthgore save people many times while they lay on the ground CCd. As for bubbles I’m simply saying that such a large AOE with such powerful effects should not be a spammable. I can’t imagine why you’d be against trying to balance this stuff unless you’re part of the groups that use it all.

Also, I realize that big groups will always find some way to adap and that’s fine. I’m not complaining about every single skill and tactic they use. But I think it should be obvious that we need to continue to keep in check the few skills/sets that emerge as being overly powerful. We stoood up to the destro train meta, the stambalde instakill meta, proc sets in general, and those were all good things and we should continue to do so. Right now Earthgore continues to heavily alter the outcome of combat without input from the player which imo should be looked at. Why do groups need a huge AOE CC that prevents healing and is arguably as strong as some ults in its effect?

I generally agree on Earthgore.

I disagree with your description of rapids. Since Rapids goes away when you cast skills or heals, the only time a group gets 30 second of major expedition is when riding. In combat, most groups do tell someone or multiple players to maintain rapids every 4-8 seconds anyways because everyone is constantly casting and needing rapids recast on them. The reason large groups maintained their mobility is because they can have players dedicated to spamming rapids, where small groups simply can't afford to have one player doing nothing but rapids. Nerf the duration of rapids or increase the cost, and the organized raids will just adjust how they already spam rapids with a rapids slave or sharing the burden - and small groups still wont be able to compete. (The real solution is reverting some of the speed nerfs to give small groups an option for speed, but that's up to ZOS, not me.)

These groups don't have infinite players, forcing a group of 24 players to have 4 rapid spammers would be a significant sacrifice.

And I think that's what people want, is to make the ball groups work for their expedition (like solo players) and have a real opportunity cost to maintaining this incredible buff. "You can have permanent speed buff plus snare immunity, but you have 4-5 fewer subassaults/proxydets/whatever"

Nobody wants to destroy rapids as a group tool (some people do), but what people are advocating for is that cost of maintaining this buff be on par with the power it provides.

Hexquisite

I don't mind the ball groups, I used to be a part of one of the most hated ball groups on DC.

However I prefer to run in a smaller organized group. Before Murkmire we would go deep in enemy territory, and maybe face one ball group, and we could take them out or retreat. Now the problem is that we will try to get away from the zerg, only to have EP or AD respond to us with 3 full raids. Its pretty overkill. And of course what happens when you get that many ball groups on top of you is that many people lag and can't bar swap and can't use skills or pots.

I think that there are just a lot of PVErs/Traders playing to get the Spell Strat stuff right now. I know in one of my trade guilds they are running huge groups to get the gear every night. All my trade guilds actively tell people to join a big group. And yes a lot of these groups aren't that great, you could take them out if you faced just that group.

Anyway, as the price of that gear drops, I expect the overkill response to a small group taking a resource, etc to die down, hopefully.

Vapirko

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

please explain to me how you expect ZOS to nerf something for a ball group without effecting anyone else? Ball groups are able to combine different things that work and coordinate that together to win. Anything you nerf they'll just find something else, or use that nerf to take advantage of the fact that they can kill other people easier now because THOSE people were effected by that same nerf.

Do you know how you fight a ballgroup? You get yourself a ballgroup because you aren't going to be able to solo it or kill it with an uncoordinated mess. Asking for nerfs because you're fighting a group that outclasses you without knowing what you want nerfed is crazy. You don't even know WHAT you want nerfed. You want... grouping... nerfed? You could literally remove the ability for people to group in Cyrodiil and ball groups would be just fine, because they use voice comms.

If you really want to fight ball groups, quit salting and go make a ball group to fight them with.

Not true. Most ball groups are made up of incredibly bad players. It’s entirely possible to take on a smaller balll group of 10 with just two or three people and easily with half their number. You know how you nerf a ball group? Take out the Zerg sets and skills, particularly earthgore and bubbles which is far too powerful with a giant AOE to be a spammable. Teams should not be able to constantly have this up. (I’ve not forgotten the actual name of this psijic skill). You then reverse some of the mobility nerfs, give magicka players speed pots, give FM a couple more seconds of snare immunity back, give shuffle more snare immunity. Make one morph of rapids usable only when riding a mount and bring the other morph (with snare removal) in line with other forms of major expedition. There’s a few ideas to get started.

JoyDivsion

You know why organized groups can spam Time Stop and stack Earthgore?

Its because they are organized.

They can tell their players "Hey, X number of you run Time Stop and X number of you run Earthgore."

If its not Earthgore and Time Stop, its Permafrost, Sub Assault, Spin To Win, Destro ultimate...heck, anything that's even remotely strong an organized group will use better than anyone else. Because they are more organized than the disorganized PUG groups and larger than the organized small scale groups.

Nerf Rapid Maneuvers?

Organized Raid: "Alright. Guys, we need another "rapids slave" or X number of people start using rapids."

Nerf the stuff they use and they'll move on to the next thing. Its surprisingly hard to nerf organization when Cyrodiil was originally designed for large organized groups. I've been PUGing and playing in a large organized raid since before Morrowind, and at no point did any of the combat changes ever seriously threaten the dominance of the large organized raids (my factions or the enemies) on the battlefield. The one thing that actually caused problems for the raids, believe it or not, was the change to catapults doing increased damage, which made it much harder to capture well-defended keeps.

Sure but 30 seconds of major expedition available to your group is much easier than making sure someone is maintaining it every 4 seconds. I mean if solo and small scale players have to deal with heavily reduced mobility why shouldn’t big groups as well? And if you think earhtgore doesn’t enable unskilled players and the majority of ball groups to avoid death then i think we play in different versions of PvP. I’ve watched earthgore save people many times while they lay on the ground CCd. As for bubbles I’m simply saying that such a large AOE with such powerful effects should not be a spammable. I can’t imagine why you’d be against trying to balance this stuff unless you’re part of the groups that use it all.

Also, I realize that big groups will always find some way to adap and that’s fine. I’m not complaining about every single skill and tactic they use. But I think it should be obvious that we need to continue to keep in check the few skills/sets that emerge as being overly powerful. We stoood up to the destro train meta, the stambalde instakill meta, proc sets in general, and those were all good things and we should continue to do so. Right now Earthgore continues to heavily alter the outcome of combat without input from the player which imo should be looked at. Why do groups need a huge AOE CC that prevents healing and is arguably as strong as some ults in its effect?

I generally agree on Earthgore.

I disagree with your description of rapids. Since Rapids goes away when you cast skills or heals, the only time a group gets 30 second of major expedition is when riding. In combat, most groups do tell someone or multiple players to maintain rapids every 4-8 seconds anyways because everyone is constantly casting and needing rapids recast on them. The reason large groups maintained their mobility is because they can have players dedicated to spamming rapids, where small groups simply can't afford to have one player doing nothing but rapids. Nerf the duration of rapids or increase the cost, and the organized raids will just adjust how they already spam rapids with a rapids slave or sharing the burden - and small groups still wont be able to compete. (The real solution is reverting some of the speed nerfs to give small groups an option for speed, but that's up to ZOS, not me.)

These groups don't have infinite players, forcing a group of 24 players to have 4 rapid spammers would be a significant sacrifice.

And I think that's what people want, is to make the ball groups work for their expedition (like solo players) and have a real opportunity cost to maintaining this incredible buff. "You can have permanent speed buff plus snare immunity, but you have 4-5 fewer subassaults/proxydets/whatever"

Nobody wants to destroy rapids as a group tool (some people do), but what people are advocating for is that cost of maintaining this buff be on par with the power it provides.

Exactly, even if someone in the group is dedicated to hitting rapids every 4 seconds, as it is now they still get a break if they fail to do so. And while the good groups might not have a problem adapting - and they should be rewarded for skill - it will take a toll on the less coordinated groups who do crutch on skills and sets. What I want to see, as stated above, is less breaks for large groups. Right now I think we all know that solo and small scale players are by far more punished by a large segment of the recent changes. Bigger groups will always have an advantage of course, but there’s absolutely NO reason for them to have an even easier time. Small scalers for the most partners know what they’re getting into and do so for that reason, for the challenge. But as far as skills and access to buffs, it should be even footing. A small group might not be able to afford to slot rapids especially with overload bar gone, and so a big group should still be on the same 4 second timer that small groups are. Big groups should not be given even more of an advantage than they already have due to numbers. Any skills and sets that perpetuate that should be looked at.

zyk

Hexquisite wrote: »

I think that there are just a lot of PVErs/Traders playing to get the Spell Strat stuff right now. I know in one of my trade guilds they are running huge groups to get the gear every night. All my trade guilds actively tell people to join a big group. And yes a lot of these groups aren't that great, you could take them out if you faced just that group.

Anyway, as the price of that gear drops, I expect the overkill response to a small group taking a resource, etc to die down, hopefully.

I'm not referring to pug groups or PVE players. Or resources or getting zerged down, for that matter. The ball groups I'm referring to are composed of experienced PVP players and in some cases have run for years.

LarsS

Dont get it, it seems like some think that good ballgroups go on smallscalers. Thats not the case acording to my experience, there is not enough AP in that. Its more fun to go on other large raids or zergs which outnumber you and it give much more AP to.

Bashev

There is no way to nerf ball groups unless something stupid is done as adding friendly fire. But even then these players will slot single target skills and still kill players because they are organized.

One option could be if the group size is reduced to 4. If it is 8 a lot of good groups will be still very strong and make tons of kills. Then again nerf these groups.

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

LarsS

Bashev wrote: »

There is no way to nerf ball groups unless something stupid is done as adding friendly fire. But even then these players will slot single target skills and still kill players because they are organized.

One option could be if the group size is reduced to 4. If it is 8 a lot of good groups will be still very strong and make tons of kills. Then again nerf these groups.

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

As pointed out before ballgroups do fight each other, second the server laggs when lots of people stack at one place even if there is no ballgroups around.

Bashev

LarsS wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

There is no way to nerf ball groups unless something stupid is done as adding friendly fire. But even then these players will slot single target skills and still kill players because they are organized.

One option could be if the group size is reduced to 4. If it is 8 a lot of good groups will be still very strong and make tons of kills. Then again nerf these groups.

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

As pointed out before ballgroups do fight each other, second the server laggs when lots of people stack at one place even if there is no ballgroups around.

Do you read? I didnt point the ball groups as direct issue for the lag but the fact that they dont die easily and they attract many players on the same location.

Ball groups fight rarely each other. It happens if they want to play the map. But if they just went for fun and AP most of the time they just avoid each other.

VaranisArano

LarsS wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

There is no way to nerf ball groups unless something stupid is done as adding friendly fire. But even then these players will slot single target skills and still kill players because they are organized.

One option could be if the group size is reduced to 4. If it is 8 a lot of good groups will be still very strong and make tons of kills. Then again nerf these groups.

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

As pointed out before ballgroups do fight each other, second the server laggs when lots of people stack at one place even if there is no ballgroups around.

I agree, but I really have to wonder if thats not a server/platform difference. I know organized raids often fight each other on PC/NA Vivec for objectives, but I've heard from a couple people on other platforms that their ballgroups lean more towards the "camp at an outpost and farm PUGs for an hour" strategy.

So its a lose-lose situation.

Either your ballgroups stay out of the major fights at objectives, not fighting each other and mostly farming PUGs
Or
Your ball groups fight each other at objectives, which the game can't handle because ZOS can't seem to fix Cyrodiil performance.

And since Cyrodiil is intended for large groups of up to 24 players and deliberately designed to bring in more than that to important objectives, its not like the solution is "No Large Organized Raids."

But the only actual solution "ZOS fixes Cyrodiil" is completely out of the hands of players.

frozywozy

Bashev wrote: »

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

I entirely agree with that statement. Ball groups need to stop working and playing so well together. If people they fight need numbers over skills to kill them, it's definitely not their problems. Ball groups should either stop playing in a group like that or simply lower their skills / performances to help the zerg kill them faster and lower the latency for everyone.

Bashev

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

I entirely agree with that statement. Ball groups need to stop working and playing so well together. If people they fight need numbers over skills to kill them, it's definitely not their problems. Ball groups should either stop playing in a group like that or simply lower their skills / performances to help the zerg kill them faster and lower the latency for everyone.

Do you read? I dont blame them. I said that they are good players and they will always find a way to kill others doesnt matter what ZoS does. I just wanted to explain why the server lags and why it happens way more often when there are ball groups around.

frozywozy

Bashev wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

I entirely agree with that statement. Ball groups need to stop working and playing so well together. If people they fight need numbers over skills to kill them, it's definitely not their problems. Ball groups should either stop playing in a group like that or simply lower their skills / performances to help the zerg kill them faster and lower the latency for everyone.

Do you read? I dont blame them. I said that they are good players and they will always find a way to kill others doesnt matter what ZoS does. I just wanted to explain why the server lags and why it happens way more often when there are ball groups around.

No. What you should come up with is :

People need to learn and get better so they don't have to rely on 4x their numbers to kill them. End of story.

Bashev

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

I entirely agree with that statement. Ball groups need to stop working and playing so well together. If people they fight need numbers over skills to kill them, it's definitely not their problems. Ball groups should either stop playing in a group like that or simply lower their skills / performances to help the zerg kill them faster and lower the latency for everyone.

Do you read? I dont blame them. I said that they are good players and they will always find a way to kill others doesnt matter what ZoS does. I just wanted to explain why the server lags and why it happens way more often when there are ball groups around.

No. What you should come up with is :

People need to learn and get better so they don't have to rely on 4x their numbers to kill them. End of story.

It is not about who is good and who is bad. It is about builds. When I go in Cyro solo or duo or even with 4 ppl I go with a build that works in fights against people who are not in a ball group. If you go with your ball group build in duo or trio will you be so successful? I doubt.

The sad true is that the ball groups kill 90% of the time pugs and the moment they find another ball group if they wipe 3-4 times they try to avoid that group.

VaranisArano

Bashev wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

I entirely agree with that statement. Ball groups need to stop working and playing so well together. If people they fight need numbers over skills to kill them, it's definitely not their problems. Ball groups should either stop playing in a group like that or simply lower their skills / performances to help the zerg kill them faster and lower the latency for everyone.

Do you read? I dont blame them. I said that they are good players and they will always find a way to kill others doesnt matter what ZoS does. I just wanted to explain why the server lags and why it happens way more often when there are ball groups around.

No. What you should come up with is :

People need to learn and get better so they don't have to rely on 4x their numbers to kill them. End of story.

It is not about who is good and who is bad. It is about builds. When I go in Cyro solo or duo or even with 4 ppl I go with a build that works in fights against people who are not in a ball group. If you go with your ball group build in duo or trio will you be so successful? I doubt.

The sad true is that the ball groups kill 90% of the time pugs and the moment they find another ball group if they wipe 3-4 times they try to avoid that group.

So, ball groups do fight each other, even 3 or 4 times, before one of them gives up or wipes and goes for a different target?

A. Not surprising. Definition of insanity and all that.

B. Not the same as "ball groups don't fight each other". Typically we'd spar like that too, then when one group breaks off or wipes for the last time, go to another objective, and usually fight another group there. Again, not surprising - Oh, and its a lose-lose. We leave and thereby spreading out the fight and lessening the lag, we're "not fighting each other".

Again, I dont know if there's a platform/server difference at play here. On PC/NA Vivec, we have plenty of PUG farming, but also raids that focus on objectives. In my experience, if an enemy raid was playing the same night we were raiding, they usually came out to defend their home keeps and take ours, so we would clash with multiple other organized raids during primetime.

You know what? We fought for objectives. But those fights raid v raid were epic and fun. Sure, its cool to slice through a horde of PUGs like a hot knife through butter for a while, but our real test, our real joy was organized raid v organized raid in order to win a keep, a scroll, and the campaign.

Now, I'll be honest. I'm getting a little bit tired of explaining my problem with "ball groups dont fight each other" again and again. In my experience, that's not true.

Either we fight other raids "properly" and thus cause lag
Or
We spread out and dont fight each other, and get pathetic fights against PUGs, also causing lag, because disorganized PUGs.

Mind you, Cyrodiil is designed explicitly for groups of 2 to 24 players. So I'm absolutely playing as intended.

Can't win. Can't freaking win.

Irylia

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'll bite.

We're going to have a meeting with the devs.

OP, tell me, specifically without pouring a carton of Morton's on me, exactly what feedback you would like me to communicate to the devs that might attain your objective that does not involve tearing apart existing game mechanics and redesigning them in 6 weeks to suit your particular play-style at the exclusion of all others. Or nerfing the crap out of something you don't like, which will adversely affect the game when ball groups aren't around.

I would also think it would be helpful not to just throw around the term "ball-group" as if everyone group out there in cyrodiil with voice coms are all the same. The majority of "ball groups" out there quite frankly aren't super strong to warrant major changes and can fail to take defended keeps Vs. an similar amount of Pugs who know what they are doing.

Good players, whether alone, in small-group, or in a larger group are going to be hard to kill. At some point, people should stop asking ZOS to nerf good players.

Ideas to bring to the table.

Proxy det scaling on all large costing aoe ultimates.
Destro/sleet/standard/nova

Group sizes that exceed 12+ people can not give or receive heals from players of a different group

Encase + talons + ice root get bombard treatment

Major/minor snare system of 20/10%

Earthgore removes all ground effects and doesn’t heal. 1 minute cooldown +

Time stop snare reduced by half or more

Most importantly...
Goblin racial, quest poly (like skele not disguise slot) or crown store item (made viable for cyro) Something.

Okay thanks :thumbs up: good talk

Bashev

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

I entirely agree with that statement. Ball groups need to stop working and playing so well together. If people they fight need numbers over skills to kill them, it's definitely not their problems. Ball groups should either stop playing in a group like that or simply lower their skills / performances to help the zerg kill them faster and lower the latency for everyone.

Do you read? I dont blame them. I said that they are good players and they will always find a way to kill others doesnt matter what ZoS does. I just wanted to explain why the server lags and why it happens way more often when there are ball groups around.

No. What you should come up with is :

People need to learn and get better so they don't have to rely on 4x their numbers to kill them. End of story.

It is not about who is good and who is bad. It is about builds. When I go in Cyro solo or duo or even with 4 ppl I go with a build that works in fights against people who are not in a ball group. If you go with your ball group build in duo or trio will you be so successful? I doubt.

The sad true is that the ball groups kill 90% of the time pugs and the moment they find another ball group if they wipe 3-4 times they try to avoid that group.

So, ball groups do fight each other, even 3 or 4 times, before one of them gives up or wipes and goes for a different target?

A. Not surprising. Definition of insanity and all that.

B. Not the same as "ball groups don't fight each other". Typically we'd spar like that too, then when one group breaks off or wipes for the last time, go to another objective, and usually fight another group there. Again, not surprising - Oh, and its a lose-lose. We leave and thereby spreading out the fight and lessening the lag, we're "not fighting each other".

Again, I dont know if there's a platform/server difference at play here. On PC/NA Vivec, we have plenty of PUG farming, but also raids that focus on objectives. In my experience, if an enemy raid was playing the same night we were raiding, they usually came out to defend their home keeps and take ours, so we would clash with multiple other organized raids during primetime.

You know what? We fought for objectives. But those fights raid v raid were epic and fun. Sure, its cool to slice through a horde of PUGs like a hot knife through butter for a while, but our real test, our real joy was organized raid v organized raid in order to win a keep, a scroll, and the campaign.

Now, I'll be honest. I'm getting a little bit tired of explaining my problem with "ball groups dont fight each other" again and again. In my experience, that's not true.

Either we fight other raids "properly" and thus cause lag
Or
We spread out and dont fight each other, and get pathetic fights against PUGs, also causing lag, because disorganized PUGs.

Mind you, Cyrodiil is designed explicitly for groups of 2 to 24 players. So I'm absolutely playing as intended.

Can't win. Can't freaking win.

Yes, they fight 3-4 times and then it is clear most of the times that one of the ball groups is way superior. In the next 2-3 weeks or till they get better they try to avoid them.

VaranisArano

Bashev wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

I entirely agree with that statement. Ball groups need to stop working and playing so well together. If people they fight need numbers over skills to kill them, it's definitely not their problems. Ball groups should either stop playing in a group like that or simply lower their skills / performances to help the zerg kill them faster and lower the latency for everyone.

Do you read? I dont blame them. I said that they are good players and they will always find a way to kill others doesnt matter what ZoS does. I just wanted to explain why the server lags and why it happens way more often when there are ball groups around.

No. What you should come up with is :

People need to learn and get better so they don't have to rely on 4x their numbers to kill them. End of story.

It is not about who is good and who is bad. It is about builds. When I go in Cyro solo or duo or even with 4 ppl I go with a build that works in fights against people who are not in a ball group. If you go with your ball group build in duo or trio will you be so successful? I doubt.

The sad true is that the ball groups kill 90% of the time pugs and the moment they find another ball group if they wipe 3-4 times they try to avoid that group.

So, ball groups do fight each other, even 3 or 4 times, before one of them gives up or wipes and goes for a different target?

A. Not surprising. Definition of insanity and all that.

B. Not the same as "ball groups don't fight each other". Typically we'd spar like that too, then when one group breaks off or wipes for the last time, go to another objective, and usually fight another group there. Again, not surprising - Oh, and its a lose-lose. We leave and thereby spreading out the fight and lessening the lag, we're "not fighting each other".

Again, I dont know if there's a platform/server difference at play here. On PC/NA Vivec, we have plenty of PUG farming, but also raids that focus on objectives. In my experience, if an enemy raid was playing the same night we were raiding, they usually came out to defend their home keeps and take ours, so we would clash with multiple other organized raids during primetime.

You know what? We fought for objectives. But those fights raid v raid were epic and fun. Sure, its cool to slice through a horde of PUGs like a hot knife through butter for a while, but our real test, our real joy was organized raid v organized raid in order to win a keep, a scroll, and the campaign.

Now, I'll be honest. I'm getting a little bit tired of explaining my problem with "ball groups dont fight each other" again and again. In my experience, that's not true.

Either we fight other raids "properly" and thus cause lag
Or
We spread out and dont fight each other, and get pathetic fights against PUGs, also causing lag, because disorganized PUGs.

Mind you, Cyrodiil is designed explicitly for groups of 2 to 24 players. So I'm absolutely playing as intended.

Can't win. Can't freaking win.

Yes, they fight 3-4 times and then it is clear most of the times that one of the ball groups is way superior. In the next 2-3 weeks or till they get better they try to avoid them.

Again, in my experience, this is not true. I fought in an organized raid against organized raids. The enemy organized raids did not avoid us even after wiping repeatedly, nor did we avoid them when we got wiped repeatedly. We fought the same groups, night after night, week after week, on the 30 day CP campaign, winning and losing. Avoiding an enemy group for half the campaign during primetime would be silly, and next to impossible for any group that fought for objectives as we and the groups we fought did.

Maybe your experience is different. If so, I think we're just going to have to chalk this up to differing experiences.