Nerf Ball Groups

usmguy1234

frozywozy wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Ball groups never fight other ball groups, now that's a lie.

People saying this usually don't play in any of those groups and speculate from their own observations which represent nowhere near the reality and what is truly happening. They say it because they hate the playstyle and they won't miss an opportunity to diminish, bash or laugh about it.

You mean the playstyle where a bunch of people gang up on random players and run away when the numbers aren't in their favor?

Xarc

Ball groups just ruin the pvp if they only farm random (and dont tell me they care about the map or faction 's score). What's the point to play with you, ball groups ? In other kind of pvp we have fun, even fighting a red zerg is more fun than fighting a ballgroup with a lfg group... We can't do anything, only to lag and to die. So we leave you, and you'll play alone with NPCs, guys, because you ruin pvp, that's all.

And @Lieblingsjunge no you can't speak for all ballgroups, I don't know for your guild but everfire, panthera, etc, they are doing it. I'm talking about the guids doing that every evening.

Hexquisite

zyk wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

I think that there are just a lot of PVErs/Traders playing to get the Spell Strat stuff right now. I know in one of my trade guilds they are running huge groups to get the gear every night. All my trade guilds actively tell people to join a big group. And yes a lot of these groups aren't that great, you could take them out if you faced just that group.

Anyway, as the price of that gear drops, I expect the overkill response to a small group taking a resource, etc to die down, hopefully.

I'm not referring to pug groups or PVE players. Or resources or getting zerged down, for that matter. The ball groups I'm referring to are composed of experienced PVP players and in some cases have run for years.

Your title didn't say "get rid of experienced ball groups."
Fact is that there are a ton of pugs and PVER's trying to run ball groups right now, and even bad ball groups bring the lag. For entertainment I join some of these groups when my guild is not on yet.

LarsS wrote: »

Dont get it, it seems like some think that good ballgroups go on smallscalers. Thats not the case acording to my experience, there is not enough AP in that. Its more fun to go on other large raids or zergs which outnumber you and it give much more AP to.

Fortunately or Unfortunately there are a ton of new/inexperienced ball groups running. It is the easiest way for most non pvpers to get the gear--though they don't understand obviously that killing a 4 man team at a resource isn't the best way to get AP. I have 2 non pvp guilds with "Ball group Configurations and strats" laid out in Discord, and who are trying their best to run a ball group, and successful or not--they still bring the lags for many players, as well as even 30 "bad" players can over run 4 "good" players.

I don't mind the good ball groups as they usually leave our 4 man team alone. I also agree that no matter what is done, the ball groups will adapt and overcome.

ShadowProc

F

ShadowProc

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

I entirely agree with that statement. Ball groups need to stop working and playing so well together. If people they fight need numbers over skills to kill them, it's definitely not their problems. Ball groups should either stop playing in a group like that or simply lower their skills / performances to help the zerg kill them faster and lower the latency for everyone.

My sentiments exactly when u post. One of these days I’m gonna put together a highlight reel of your posts shaming the exact play style you defend now.

NupidStoob

According to this thread running around in a zerg makes you mindless, but being in a group spamming one button while following the crown is the pinnacle of play.

Joy_Division

Irylia wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'll bite.

We're going to have a meeting with the devs.

OP, tell me, specifically without pouring a carton of Morton's on me, exactly what feedback you would like me to communicate to the devs that might attain your objective that does not involve tearing apart existing game mechanics and redesigning them in 6 weeks to suit your particular play-style at the exclusion of all others. Or nerfing the crap out of something you don't like, which will adversely affect the game when ball groups aren't around.

I would also think it would be helpful not to just throw around the term "ball-group" as if everyone group out there in cyrodiil with voice coms are all the same. The majority of "ball groups" out there quite frankly aren't super strong to warrant major changes and can fail to take defended keeps Vs. an similar amount of Pugs who know what they are doing.

Good players, whether alone, in small-group, or in a larger group are going to be hard to kill. At some point, people should stop asking ZOS to nerf good players.

Ideas to bring to the table.

Proxy det scaling on all large costing aoe ultimates.
Destro/sleet/standard/nova

Group sizes that exceed 12+ people can not give or receive heals from players of a different group

Encase + talons + ice root get bombard treatment

Major/minor snare system of 20/10%

Earthgore removes all ground effects and doesn’t heal. 1 minute cooldown +

Time stop snare reduced by half or more

Most importantly...
Goblin racial, quest poly (like skele not disguise slot) or crown store item (made viable for cyro) Something.

Okay thanks :thumbs up: good talk

You should stop giving reasoned opinions. You're disrupting the flow of nonsense in this thread.

frozywozy

ShadowProc wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

As some people pointed out the big issue with the ball groups is that they dont fight each other and they lag the server because they draw big attention and many players go there and the skill spam start.

I entirely agree with that statement. Ball groups need to stop working and playing so well together. If people they fight need numbers over skills to kill them, it's definitely not their problems. Ball groups should either stop playing in a group like that or simply lower their skills / performances to help the zerg kill them faster and lower the latency for everyone.

My sentiments exactly when u post. One of these days I’m gonna put together a highlight reel of your posts shaming the exact play style you defend now.

I was being sarcastic, wake up.

Malamar1229

VaranisArano wrote: »

Good luck. Large scale organized combat is exactly what Cyrodiil was originally designed for.

Yeah.
Too bad it cant support it.

Malamar1229

Only other comment I'll add is good ball groups should be defined by their coordination, synergies, and skill level.....not by the red cloud hovering above them or other cheese proc sets.

LarsS

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Only other comment I'll add is good ball groups should be defined by their coordination, synergies, and skill level.....not by the red cloud hovering above them or other cheese proc sets.

Agree the sets dont make a good ballgroup, coordination and experience is the key.

booksmcread

VaranisArano

NupidStoob wrote: »

According to this thread running around in a zerg makes you mindless, but being in a group spamming one button while following the crown is the pinnacle of play.

Er...apparently I'm bad at zerg-surfing becase ever time I try to turn my mind off and just heal, I overextend or get abandoned and die.

Playing in an organized group takes certain skills and good teamwork. In good groups, its a lot more than spamming one skill and following crown. Its certainly different skills from, say, bombing, ganking, small man, 1 v X or staying alive in a PUG raid, but its not mindless. I've got my job, and I do it while staying with the group, and if I make raid healing look easy, it's because I've spent hours practicing it.

Playing in a zerg, on the other hand, requires a totally different set of skills. I have to heal, but I can only rely on myself for back-up. If I want to live, I have to retreat in time. If I want to siege, I'm going to have to defend myself because no one else is going to help or quite possibly I'll be the only one sieging.

Wanna guess which type of play I'm more successful at? If you guessed the organized raid, where my teammates stay tight and I know where they're going in voice comms so its easy to heal them and we defend our siege, you'd be right. In a disorganized zerg, I have to guess when the mass of players is going to push, going to break and run, or going to support my siege or abandon me.


I dont know about "pinnacle of play" but I would absolutely say that an organized raid is the most effective way to play. Certainly, it's much more effective than zerg-surfing, where no one really knows what everyone else is doing, its chaotic, and people rarely support each other the way an organized raid can.

Delsskia

Just for clarity I'm going to assume that everyone is referring to "ball groups" as any raid group of 12 or more that runs in, at the very least, a semi-coherent fashion and uses voice coms. If that's the case, then Fantasia is a ball group and I can tell y'all a bit about my experience.

1. "ball groups never fight each other"... this is a myth, it's wholly untrue, y'all should stop spreading this lie. I'm sure there are some organized groups who prefer to avoid us, but by and large, we prefer to fight other organized groups and from the comments we get from them, they prefer it also. About the only times we avoid fighting another organized group is when we have folks waiting in the queue, once everyone is in Cyr we actively search for fights with other organized groups.

2. Sometimes we don't fight other organized groups because we entice one or both of the other factions to converge on us so that AD can reclaim our home Keeps. Sometimes this includes masses of solo players and small groups, sometimes it also includes other organized groups. Sometimes we run into fights like this while we're searching for organized groups to fight or when 1/2 of our group is sitting at 80 in the queue and we're just knocking out Keep quests or resource quests while we wait for our group.

3. There is no content in the game that requires a group of 24 players. The ONLY reason there's a 24 person limit to raids is because of Cyrodiil. The reason that many of us bought ESO in the first place was because of the promised large scale PvP. ZOS screwed the pooch on that by using a bad and old game engine to build their game on. In the nearly 5 years since the game was released, they've had ample time to rewrite the game on top of a modern game engine that's actually suited to large scale PvP. Apparently they really like that pooch they keep screwing.

4. Guilds that run 2, 3, 4 or more raids deep are really bad for Cyrodiil. It's bad form to rely on overwhelming numbers and the inevitable lag/disconnects rather than on actual tactics. It doesn't encourage people to be better, probably the opposite. However, in their defense, ZOS actively promoted large scale PvP and they haven't lived up to what they advertised. Still, I tend to view it as exploiting bad server and game engine performance but I really don't see what can be done about it.

5. Trying to limit skills for groups of 12 or more is a horrible idea. You're just asking for more code calculations that will bog the servers down more than they already are in a game with 24 person raid limits from a company that actively promoted large scale PvP. That's a knee jerk reaction, not a solution.

6. Proc sets are bad for the game. Dungeons are tuned with proc sets in mind and Cyrodiil has to deal with it. Proc sets are just massive amounts of calculations that the game engine and servers struggle with. They look good on paper, but in practice they bring the game down. It would be fairly simple to just disable proc sets using Battle Spirit, so at least Cyrodiil servers could get some relief.

7. ZOS could open a 7 day and a 30 campaign that REQUIRES a group of 12 or more to even enter. Organized groups would love that. We want to fight other organized groups. Give us our own campaigns to release the pressure valve on Vivec.

Sacredx

@Joy_Division something for the devs to consider if you could please pass on. Main parts in bold.

Some context first. I run almost always in an organised raid who are well coordinated (optimised builds). We run between 10 to 16 players usually. As most people pointed out organised raids are extremely strong and I can agree to this. We can basically dictate what happens to the map. You want emp, no problem. You want scrolls, no problem. You want to win the campaign by consistently pushing the opposition to the gates, we can and have done this many times. And this is not because of pvdoor (ie any team can win pvdoor, that's a given), it is because we can overcome the opposition who are usually much more in number than us through the use of organised play.

However, there is some issues in the game as it stands that need urgent attention, which some have outlined. One is Earthgore (EG). This set as it stands is far too strong. This set was recently up for grabs in the pvp vendor so everyone who wanted to could easily get it. The main issue we have faced with is fighting other raids much bigger than us say 30-40 players. We can sustain the numbers but when it comes to execution and wiping the enemy EG procs and given how many people run this set it is incredibly difficult to overcome the stacked burst passive proc heal. Key word is stacked. It stacks and forms a massive aoe heal. And if 20 people have it on it is enough to have EG up for every burst. This empowers the very large groups far too much.

The solution. Some have suggest a good idea to get this under control. Prevent the EG set from stacking. One EG proc aoe in a zone at any time. This means there is no affect for solo or small scale. And large raids can no longer use a passive stacking mechanic that requires very little skill.

As a side note. My personal opinion is that all proc sets should be removed from the game. They devalue the skill of the player and force good players to actually run these sets for bis. Be that EG or the weapon proc enchant meta we have recently had or the time when people ran viper and the other proc sets. If you take proc sets out you are left with pure skill play, which is how it should be.

Another issue currently in the game and this one is massive for groups is stuck in combat bug. This bug can last for a very long time. We have tested to try to work out how to deal with it and have so far not been able to find any easy answers. If a whole raid is stuck in combat they are all prevented from:

1. Porting to defend or attack a location resulting in lost opportunities due to a game breaking bug.
2. Mounting resulting in the raid moving on foot from one keep to the next, which is very time consuming and again resulting in lost opportunities due to a game breaking bug.
3. Changing skills or quick slots. I get the skills but why on earth are quick slots locked?? If we get to a keep and people want to slot siege but cannot its a huge penalty to the group.

At the very least allow access to quick slots while in combat until this is resolved.

These are the main two that need to be addressed urgently. People are really being put to the test with staying with this game because of the above issues. If you want to keep the 'customer' I suggest getting the above hot fixed, NOT patched many months down the line when people have already quit the game as a result.

IxSTALKERxI

This thread should be renamed 'nerf healing springs'.

rabidrufus64 wrote: »

now where does the term ball come from and what does it mean exactly? im assuming it has significance to "ball rooms" or nah

It means people stack in a ball inside healing spring spam.


Anyways, healing springs has been untouched since launch, that's why ball groups 'adjust so well' each patch. All pve content in the game is balanced around healing springs, therefore it will never be changed, so ball groups are here to stay don't worry.

Also, you don't need earthgore, ball groups are strong without it, they are strong even without bogdan to.

The other thing is the power creep imo. The higher the damage and healing becomes each patch, the more effective heal over times are. So every patch, healing springs spam / vigors etc become even more effective. Stacking hots has always been OP and they get stronger every patch, and that goes for solo builds to, not just ball groups.

Oh and I'm not trying to get ball groups nerfed, I don't really care, I'm just helping provide some insight.

MipMip

frozywozy wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Ball groups never fight other ball groups, now that's a lie.

People saying this usually don't play in any of those groups and speculate from their own observations which represent nowhere near the reality and what is truly happening. They say it because they hate the playstyle and they won't miss an opportunity to diminish, bash or laugh about it.

Sadly, this so true... fortunately there are many good answers by ball group players in this thread, but I cannot resist adding my own:

Claim - ‘Ball group players press only one button’: not true at all, only people who have no idea about our playstyle can think that; a player who would be pressing only one button would be a waste of a slot in a group

Claim - ‘Ball group players only follow the crown’: not true, playing in a ball group requires not only running with the crown / group but also independently understanding the movement of your group and of opponents, and understanding your own best positioning relative to your group in every situation

Claim - ‘Ball groups only look for easy fights against random players': not true, ball groups (at least the ones that I know well enough) look for challenging fights, either against other organized groups, or outnumbered fights against much larger numbers of random players

For players who like structured team play playing in a ball group is great. It’s not easy to make everything work perfectly, but when the teamplay works out it’s great fun!

TheLionFromTheNorth

Imo the discussion what cyrodiil's pvp is about (smallscale vs solo vs sieging empty keeps vs ball groups) is kind off pointless. Cyrodiil gives you - like it's intended by the devs - the possibility to pick any playstyle you like and you'll be able to find nice figths all over the map.

As someon who also did alot of pve content after the game was released i find pvp raiding the most challenging endgame of ESO. Like in a company in rl task allocation is the key that makes ball groups strong. Aside from this you have to find good and motivated players for your raid, all the required roles in every single raid, someone who's leading it, signups, regular raids to train your performance as a team, highly specialized builds that absolutely suck in any other situation than in pvp raiding, a way how to test new members, people who adjust builds for every patch, …

Thats the part that people complaining about ball Groups don't see - it's a ton of work!!!

I absolutely understand that figthing a ballgroup must be frustrating for a solo or smallscale Player. But there is so much you can do against ball Groups - even as a solo Player, but you have to put some effort into it (Siege and oil them, bomb them, pull single Players out of the raid, leave the area, …). People who just get farmed over and over and over again, really deserve it imo .

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Simple example:
"Rapid Maneuver" affects whole group and cost about 8K stamina. When you have full ride (24 people) this means it brings more benefit vs casting this skill solo (ungrouped). So the real cost per person in a group is something like 333 stamina.
Same goes for every other skill that affects whole group.

I want to mention that most of the buffs will only go to 4, 6 or 12 players in your group. And there are way better ways to get snare immunity than casting rapids on a solo build. And as already mentioned you will loose the buff as soon as you are casting skills…

A lot of posts adress the effectiveness of the speedbuff in a ballgroup. Yes ist a strong skill and absolutely substantial for every ballgroup. At this point i agree with @frozywozy that snares and roots are overperforming in pvp. If your rapids dies or slacks you won't be able to keep up your movement and you'll die very fast.
For those who want to make rapids more expensive: Keep in mind that there is also no-cp pvp. A highly specialized build is required to provide this buff regulary in combat. Especially with the dark deal nerf it's already very hard to sustain this role at all!

Sacredx wrote: »

However, there is some issues in the game as it stands that need urgent attention, which some have outlined. One is Earthgore (EG). This set as it stands is far too strong. This set was recently up for grabs in the pvp vendor so everyone who wanted to could easily get it. The main issue we have faced with is fighting other raids much bigger than us say 30-40 players. We can sustain the numbers but when it comes to execution and wiping the enemy EG procs and given how many people run this set it is incredibly difficult to overcome the stacked burst passive proc heal. Key word is stacked. It stacks and forms a massive aoe heal. And if 20 people have it on it is enough to have EG up for every burst. This empowers the very large groups far too much.

I can't agree with this Point at all. Earthgore doesn't have a big Impact on pvp raiding any more. The healing per second is as big as two stacked healing springs (~3k) and you will barely stay in it for more than 2-3 seconds, if your raid is on the move. Another downside is the huge downtime. For comparison: One "Hasty Prayer" can give you a 4 times higher burst healing and ist not stationary...

usmcjdking

Purge cooldown.

Completely gut Retreating Maneuvers. Straight to the *** dumpster with that skill.

Sacredx

TheLionFromTheNorth wrote: »

I can't agree with this Point at all. Earthgore doesn't have a big Impact on pvp raiding any more. The healing per second is as big as two stacked healing springs (~3k) and you will barely stay in it for more than 2-3 seconds, if your raid is on the move. Another downside is the huge downtime. For comparison: One "Hasty Prayer" can give you a 4 times higher burst healing and ist not stationary...

The comparison of EG vs springs or hasty in terms of heal numbers may be about right, but the functionality of EG vs active skills is totally different. You cannot compare a skill that you have to be able to actively cast and that can be disrupted with cc, negates, db or not be in range of players against a stackable passive skill that will go off at the right place and time every time! The reliability of using a proc to save someone vs player reaction (often in lag) makes it hands down the winner.

Don't just look at the numbers, the function is far more important. This is not pve.

TheLionFromTheNorth

Yes its true the automatic proc can be nice in some situations, and we still run few of them in the raid. But a stationary 3k healing over time won't save you against a massive incoming burst. Keep in mind that earthgore just as healing springs also can be removed by negates!
Another downside is, that one single player who drops below 50% can proc all of your earthgores in the raid! Even a random player running close to your group who accidentally gets a mutagen from one of your healers can proc the earthgore 15 seconds later far away from your group and then you have to wait 35s until it's up again. So you can't rely on earthgore saving you in moments of high pressure.
Earthgore was absolutely op in the beginning, but the longer duration in combination with the movement speed buff through swift etc. in the Summerset patch reduces it's impact on PvP raiding imo. That's the reason, why you see more bogdans these days in raids. The healing per second is the same (smaller area though) and it will proc almost on cooldown...

technohic

My annoyances with them are

1. You have a hard time targeting 1 player in a ball to actually focus due to the way targeting works in the game, yet smart heals does not count players as LOS and do not require targeting.

2. I'm not worried about earthgores heals so much as it negates effects. Thus is an ultimate level effect put on a free proc. Add this to purge and number 1 and not only can you not focus a specific player, but any residual damage will not stick long.

3. Nerf if mobility really impact players who dont zerg ie ball up more than anyone. You relied on getting away from bad situations with mobility but I get how abused that was as far as top speed but duration of root and snare immunity was very much not needed and applied unevenly. Rapids effects to many friendlies and affords larger groups to have a people dedicated to it.


Outside if that, I am always glad to see a friendly ball group come deal with an enemy one, but that doesn't happen often enough

Sacredx

TheLionFromTheNorth wrote: »

Yes its true the automatic proc can be nice in some situations, and we still run few of them in the raid. But a stationary 3k healing over time won't save you against a massive incoming burst. Keep in mind that earthgore just as healing springs also can be removed by negates!
Another downside is, that one single player who drops below 50% can proc all of your earthgores in the raid! Even a random player running close to your group who accidentally gets a mutagen from one of your healers can proc the earthgore 15 seconds later far away from your group and then you have to wait 35s until it's up again. So you can't rely on earthgore saving you in moments of high pressure.
Earthgore was absolutely op in the beginning, but the longer duration in combination with the movement speed buff through swift etc. in the Summerset patch reduces it's impact on PvP raiding imo. That's the reason, why you see more bogdans these days in raids. The healing per second is the same (smaller area though) and it will proc almost on cooldown...

If you run a basic raid setup with uncoordinated builds sure. A few EG is fine as is, it's when you stack many of them that it becomes a problem. And no they don't all proc at once (unless you run a few), only until the player is over 50%, which usually only needs a few at most.

Name me any other monster set for a raid support class that is on par with EG?

Ruckly

The primary problem with ball groups is heal stacking because it can not be offset by DoT stacking because of purge. Heal stacking results in continuous health regen because of staggered heals from different peoples GCDs which makes it difficult to punch through. Some groups can stand in 4 oils with no siege shield plus whatever else damage with their health bars barely moving.

I don't know if there is a good solution to this. I can give a mediocre one that might sound good in theory but is probably boring in practice.

1. The player should get a debuff that stacks with the more HoTs they receive which reduces healing received from HoTs.
2. A siege shield should cancel these debuffs while players stand in the siege shield.

This accomplishes two things. The first is it makes ball groups vulnerable once they start moving unless they want to cast a line of siege shields which costs a lot of magicka and removes rapid maneuver buff. And second for non ball groups that need to go through a breach in a fort if they drop a siege shield in the breach they don't suffer the HoT penalty while going through the breach.

VaranisArano

Ruckly wrote: »

The primary problem with ball groups is heal stacking because it can not be offset by DoT stacking because of purge. Heal stacking results in continuous health regen because of staggered heals from different peoples GCDs which makes it difficult to punch through. Some groups can stand in 4 oils with no siege shield plus whatever else damage with their health bars barely moving.

I don't know if there is a good solution to this. I can give a mediocre one that might sound good in theory but is probably boring in practice.

1. The player should get a debuff that stacks with the more HoTs they receive which reduces healing received from HoTs.
2. A siege shield should cancel these debuffs while players stand in the siege shield.

This accomplishes two things. The first is it makes ball groups vulnerable once they start moving unless they want to cast a line of siege shields which costs a lot of magicka and removes rapid maneuver buff. And second for non ball groups that need to go through a breach in a fort if they drop a siege shield in the breach they don't suffer the HoT penalty while going through the breach.

Meatbag and Scattershot catapults did a lot of what you want when they had their damage buffed. I can tell you that dealing with prepared defenses of stacked meatbag/scattershot catapults tested and pushed our healers to the limit at keep captures and defenses. We died more on breaches that patch than ever before or after.

But if they were murder on our organized raids, they absolutely destroyed everyone else who was less organized or less numerous, or less able to knock down multiple holes in a keep.

So ZOS nerfed them, even though they were hands down the best tools small groups/solo/disorganized players had against organized raids yet.

Make of that what you will.

Ruckly

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

The primary problem with ball groups is heal stacking because it can not be offset by DoT stacking because of purge. Heal stacking results in continuous health regen because of staggered heals from different peoples GCDs which makes it difficult to punch through. Some groups can stand in 4 oils with no siege shield plus whatever else damage with their health bars barely moving.

I don't know if there is a good solution to this. I can give a mediocre one that might sound good in theory but is probably boring in practice.

1. The player should get a debuff that stacks with the more HoTs they receive which reduces healing received from HoTs.
2. A siege shield should cancel these debuffs while players stand in the siege shield.

This accomplishes two things. The first is it makes ball groups vulnerable once they start moving unless they want to cast a line of siege shields which costs a lot of magicka and removes rapid maneuver buff. And second for non ball groups that need to go through a breach in a fort if they drop a siege shield in the breach they don't suffer the HoT penalty while going through the breach.

Meatbag and Scattershot catapults did a lot of what you want when they had their damage buffed. I can tell you that dealing with prepared defenses of stacked meatbag/scattershot catapults tested and pushed our healers to the limit at keep captures and defenses. We died more on breaches that patch than ever before or after.

But if they were murder on our organized raids, they absolutely destroyed everyone else who was less organized or less numerous, or less able to knock down multiple holes in a keep.

So ZOS nerfed them, even though they were hands down the best tools small groups/solo/disorganized players had against organized raids yet.

Make of that what you will.

This is why I proposed the two conditions. The problem with nerfing ball groups is you also nerf non-ball groups trying to get through a breach since to get through the breach they typically have to stack like a ball group would. They aren't immune to negate(non-ball groups) so barrier stacking isn't a one shot solution. Super tanks can't block or mitigate siege damage(siege ignores a DK's armor ult). The one set that increases dodge roll effect by 0.3 seconds has an upper limit to how many people actually use the set(it is a dungeon drop). There is no ground targeted gap closer. The closest skill I can think of to a ground targeted gap closer is bolt escape which has limited distance and sorcs have limited tanking capacity when under fire from multiple sources. And so on. Thus getting through a breach(with a non-ball group) often involves healing stacking and purges which is what makes ball groups strong.

O_LYKOS

One of the best requests to date. Nice try.

Soul_Demon

zyk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Good luck. Large scale organized combat is exactly what Cyrodiil was originally designed for.

Incorrect. If you read interviews from when ESO was in development -- when AvA had a high profile and the devs loved to talk about it -- you'll learn that it was made to facilitate a variety of play styles from solo to large groups.

Just like there needs to be balance between classes and roles, there needs to be balance between play styles because we all fight in the same very large arena. Like with classes, balance between play styles fluctuates patch to patch. Over the past year, ball groups have become disproportionately strong IMO.

A ball group is a group that primarily uses AEs and therefore clump together like a ball or blob. Though a group of any size can play like this, it's usually only effective in medium to large groups.

Large ball groups have been addressed in the past. In 2.3, for example, changes to purge, barrier and rapids were meant to address ball groups.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Good players, whether alone, in small-group, or in a larger group are going to be hard to kill. At some point, people should stop asking ZOS to nerf good players.

That's not what's happening here. At all. Actually, it's the opposite. The current strength of ball groups has everything to do with raising the floor and lowering the ceiling.

I know it's easy to imagine only the best groups when a discussion like this comes up, but it's actually the mediocre ball groups that stand out as the main beneficiaries of the changes that have helped ball groups. There are so many *bad* ball groups out there who can barely get kills, but take large numbers to wipe because it's easy for them to spam heals, CCs and stay mobile.

My POV is that of someone who has played all styles over the years. I've been on the extremes of both sides of the coin, fighting in some OP ball groups and also fighting against groups of all types as a random.

I think that play style balance is essential. Ungrouped randoms and small groups need a fighting chance against large groups. As recently as 3.0, I felt we had that. Good groups had to constantly be aware of even solo bombers and over-extending as a member of a large group would get you killed.

Though I think the path to where we are now was much more nuanced, there are two changes that stand out to me: The blanket nerf to mobility and Earthgore.

The 4.2 mobility nerfs are huge here. Basically, everyone except ball groups had their mobility significantly limited. This gives large organized groups the ability to easily reset and reposition at will. It is unlikely that a significant portion of their opponents will have the means to efficiently keep up with them which quickly reduces pressure and helps with kiting. We all know how important mobility is after the nerfs, so we should all recognize this is a huge advantage.

On the other side of the coin, everyone else had their legs chopped off. A random fighting these groups without speed potions and other mobility tools that were nerfed has to maintain a much greater distance between them and the ball group. When they do get caught, escape is much more difficult.

The changes to mobility also make it trivially easy for a ball group to disconnect from a fight and drop a camp. The synergy between Forward Camps and ball groups needs to be addressed. A 20 player AE rez with a massive radius shouldn't be so easy to execute.

Earthgore is quite a dead horse, but continues to be a major factor in bailing out ball groups -- especially the very bad ones -- when they make mistakes. This is key because away from an outright coordinated bomb, whittling down large groups one by one was an effective tactic.

But like I said, I think it's more nuanced than this. Beyond game changes, strong builds and tactics have become more widespread and I know most solo and small group players would say their play styles have been significantly nerfed over the same period.

I would tend to disagree with you....not only was the game made for massive battles but it was specifically sold and pitched to the community to be the best at truly large scale combat with the emphasis on Cyro being the place for that.
https://theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2013/jan/29/elder-scrolls-online-characters

"PVP takes place in the huge central zone of Cyrodiil, and the obvious question is how many players can get involved. "We're planning on having 2,000 people at once in Cyrodiil," says Firor. "In a particular fight our client is optimised to have 200 players on-screen at one time, which means you'll have very large battles within an even larger battlefield."

"A typical PVP battle might be a large-scale city assault, with one team defending, while the other is battering gates, firing trebuchets, and trying to sneak in through poorly-defended side-routes."We've designed the system to let players do all of those things, and it's up to them to figure out which tactics work better – but generally, if your entire army is in front of the gate and just beating the walls, you're gonna lose. Carrying the day needs teamwork."

This is likely why the group finder used to tell a player to come into cyro you 'should' have a group from 8-24.....someone went in an changed it to say now 2-24 if memory serves about the time of one tamriel. Its like ignoring the trials recommendations for 12 players and trying to do one with say.....3. Then taking to the forums to complain how those 12 man trials groups are able to do content designed for 12 man groups but .....but you want to be able to do it with 3.

Drummerx04

From my experience, there are few very basic ways ZOS can level the playing field between ball groups and everyone else.

1. Change purge and rapids to affect players outside of your group. Currently only ball groups can make good use of these skills because they only target group members.
2. Remove the AoE ground negate effect from Earthgore.
3. Purge no longer removes Hard CC. This pretty much wouldn't affect "solo" players, since they can't purge while CC'd anyway.

Sacredx

Before we go and burn the house to the ground I think it's worth recognising the why.

Why nerf ball groups? Because they make the effort to organise a team that works in synergy. This is not a natural advantage that zos gave them, this is hard work through sweat and tears, team dedication and organisation to make it happen. What people fail to recognise is that this applies to anyone, not just ball groups. Solo players and small groups can be just as effective. And unorganised ball groups fall apart just as easily as anyone. Game mechanics is a minor component in the outcome. Individuals that are willing to adapt and overcome challenges is a major component.

It does not matter how you change the game, organised players and teams that are willing to make the effort to excel will always come out on top.