Round Round it goes... LoS stuff

Miriel

So we might not have doors on towers anymore, but instead people enjoy the run around in Towers, technically abusing the LoS mechanic to not get hit, build ulti and dump... rince repeat...

What makes me sad is, that many of the player doing this is good players and when talking to them, their excuse is, its only viable to survive big groups, and thats not true, couse if you run into a bigger group with better players you still die, since they do the same... So technically this is just a way for the " good " players to prey on new players that might not understnad the LoS mechanics, and why ?

When PvP is in the bad shape it is, we can barely fill up ONE server, and you pick on the new, the people we should help get better ?, instead some of you take hours upon hours to do the same boring thing, run around in tower, abusing a LoS Mechanic... and if you face people that can fight you, you just try to run away, wich mostly just ends with you all getting picked off one by one, and if new players try to ask you, you usually just reply "git good"...

How about you guys git good and help pvp, help the new players... instead of being bottom feeders couse honestly, all you so called aces, pros and good players in small groups that pick on new, your just vultures in my opinion that avoid the better players !

Scarpion

New players are not the reason people use line of sight. Experienced players are. New players sit there spamming light attacks, they are no threat. Experienced players use abilities, weave attacks with light attacks, cc on cooldown.

Everything you said is just incorrect.

Miriel

@Scarpion
If you bother to read, it dosent matter, it ONLY matter against people that dont understand the LoS mechanic... in other words you guys that run around in towers pick on new inexperienced players...

if skilled players come and is more you still die... so bottomfeeders that avoid the skilled players !... the funny thing is, when good players come most of you try to run away... and you get hunted down and killed one by one...

JerkMctwerk

If I had a dollar for every grand warlord I've killed using the mechanics u describe I'd be
Rich.

"Abusing" LoS is probably the only reliable way to mitigate the massive amount of damage taken when fighting outbumbered.
But congrats zos is looking to make that alot harder in nerfmire!

Miriel

JerkMctwerk wrote: »

If I had a dollar for every grand warlord I've killed using the mechanics u describe I'd be
Rich.

"Abusing" LoS is probably the only reliable way to mitigate the massive amount of damage taken when fighting outbumbered.
But congrats zos is looking to make that alot harder in nerfmire!

Rank says very little if a player is good or bad... in some cases it people that know how to abuse the mechanics to prey on the less expeienced, and farm aps to gain rank... on the expense of pvp, look around we cant even fill up ONE server anymore, when is enough enough, when no new players is around ?... how about help them instead ?

Mintaka5

Agreed good players are the most toxic, degenerates known to mankind. I wouldn't say they are necessarily good, just arrogant, due to the fact that they've found a way to repeatedly abuse a mechanical exploit.

They won't teach because exploiting game mechanics are easily implemented (read as requiring no skills), and if everyone can use them then these players who use them wouldn't be good anymore.

It's something called parasitism:

...exploitation is essentially a form of social parasitism. One group are made better off by the existence of a second group, but that second group is made worse off by the existence of the first...

tldr these "good" players are parasites

Frawr

Miriel wrote: »

So we might not have doors on towers anymore, but instead people enjoy the run around in Towers, technically abusing the LoS mechanic to not get hit, build ulti and dump... rince repeat...

What makes me sad is, that many of the player doing this is good players and when talking to them, their excuse is, its only viable to survive big groups, and thats not true, couse if you run into a bigger group with better players you still die, since they do the same... So technically this is just a way for the " good " players to prey on new players that might not understnad the LoS mechanics, and why ?

When PvP is in the bad shape it is, we can barely fill up ONE server, and you pick on the new, the people we should help get better ?, instead some of you take hours upon hours to do the same boring thing, run around in tower, abusing a LoS Mechanic... and if you face people that can fight you, you just try to run away, wich mostly just ends with you all getting picked off one by one, and if new players try to ask you, you usually just reply "git good"...

How about you guys git good and help pvp, help the new players... instead of being bottom feeders couse honestly, all you so called aces, pros and good players in small groups that pick on new, your just vultures in my opinion that avoid the better players !

complaining that people avoid damage by running behind a building...

...

you want people to stand there and be mowed down by the masses of mindless zombie zerglings?

Admittedly, I think that ZOS may be on your side.

Sanctum74

Abusing line of sight? Lol umm ok, so how are they supposed to help inexperienced players then? Do you want them to just stand there so they can just zerg them down? They are not going to learn anything that way.

There's more resources available now to learn mechanics then there ever has been in the history of the game. If people don't want to take the time to learn or just wanna run a role playing build because it looks cool then that's on them.

The bigger question is why do groups feel so compelled to chase down solo players for 10 minutes around a tower, tree, or rock?

Sharee

Its not so much abusing LOS as abusing the fact the server cannot handle players moving as fast as the tower-circlers do.

Lets hope the speed changes in murkmire help.

caeliusstarbreaker

There los cause there are 5 people and it’s too much dmg or a healer stopping you from killing one-all out right, so you need to separate them into manageable chunks.

Then there is los because screw riding back from glade to Roe.

Then there is los because there are 14 people using snipe.

Then there is los in a 1v1 because you have no idea what to do.

3 are strategic use of surroundings, 1 just doesn’t make sense.

magictucktuck

Since when is using positioning to an advantage abusing anything?

Miriel

You guys, reread what im saying... its the FACT experienced players use this on new players, many new dont understand the LoS mechanic, instead of farming them for AP, help them... we need players to make pvp great again...

And again, the LoS only works against people that perhaps dont fight so well, against better players your screwed anyway if their more, its why most of you try to run away...

So again, you know you are only there to fight easy fight, essentially parasites as someone earlier said... there is absolutly nothing git good about running around a tower...

zyk

It's not abuse at all. It's a game mechanic that mimics real life where trained and savvy combatants use cover and obstacles whenever possible. Good groups of all sizes and playstyles use tactics like this. Calling it abuse is like saying coaxing opponents into a choke point to burst them is abuse. These are valid tactics.

Also keep in mind that ZOS envisions small scale players fighting at resources. You can't expect them to go easy on whoever shows up. You have to expect that they will use tools at their disposal to win.

I agree with @Sharee that the server has a tracking issue. It has been exacerbated by the introduction of Swift which is extremely widespread right now. But performance issues permeate every part of this game.

This game also has very liberal movement mechanics that allow players to accelerate to full speed instantly. Whether this is good or bad is purely subjective, but it's how it was designed and players cannot be blamed for utilizing mobility well.

I think ESO does have a game design and cultural issue that results in hardcore gamers fighting casual players too often. But it's kind of hard to avoid if a player or group takes a resource looking for a fight. They can't control who shows up.

With that said, it is very discouraging for new and casual players to fight experienced and hardcore players alone. That's why sports and many games segment players based on aptitude. I consider this to be a game design issue. Players can choose to help mitigate it and from what I've seen in the few days since returning recently, hardcore players seem to be helping casual players more often than before. Kudos to those who do. If new and casual players have a better experience, it will help grow the game.

@Mintaka5 This is false. Legend, a dueling guild, has dozens of experienced members who are eager to assist others who ask for help. Some of the best players are members. It's true, not all players are interested in helping, but that's also fair as no one is obligated to do so.

caeliusstarbreaker

I use skills on new players too, I use skills on veteran players. Am I abusing skills?
The “mechanic” is pretty simple, if you’re getting shot at you get behind something that shields you from fire.

You can tell people to reread your statement over and over, no disrespect, but you’re not exactly coming forth with anything substantial.

You say people are abusing a mechanic. If it’s a mechanic, how exactly is it being abused? What is it that you want them to do? Be cause if it’s a mechanic, then it’s meant to be used... los isn’t exactlg organic eso, not to mention you barely have to aim in this game.

You mention that it’s not the only way to fight bigger groups, but give no alternate option.

If you understood game mechanics, then you would know that you can’t just sit out in the middle of no where taking dmg like you’re singing in the rain.

Hypothetically, by your own logic, let’s look at a scenario. Let’s say someone is in the middle of no where and perma blocking and still killing people. Is he abusing a block mechanic? If so what exactly is he supposed to do fit your not “abusing mechanics” view point?

The very nature of fighting outnumbered is trying to come out on top regardless of odds stacked against you. That includes numbers and skill levels of players.

Alternatively, what exactly are you doing to help the new pvp player community?
How would you like experienced pvp’ers to help new pvp’ers?
Where is it written that they have to?
How do you teach time and experience with your class?
How do you teach how your class and build deal with a million different variables that is open world Cyrodiil?
How do you encourage people to break the chain of just plinking away with bows from a mass of people and have the gumption to step outside their comfort zone?
How do you re-hardwire people’s mind set of “see rabbit, kill rabbit” into “I am the hunter, the warrior, the one you need to bring and army for?”

Do you have answers to any of these besides “re-read my post?” Cause that’s starting to sound real close to “git gud.”

Mintaka5

zyk wrote: »

@Mintaka5 This is false. Legend, a dueling guild, has dozens of experienced members who are eager to assist others who ask for help. Some of the best players are members. It's true, not all players are interested in helping, but that's also fair as no one is obligated to do so.

It's neither true nor false. Don't be an absolutist! You and I both know there are good players that contribute to toxic gameplay and fail to contribute back to the PvP community in ways that the OP has mentioned.

I have been a part of many guilds that "taught" me how to play better, and that they did, but it din't end up in making me or most of the other player substantially good. Exploitation in general is neither bad or good (they taught me how to play skillfully and not using my fighting skill to abuse other players), but it lends itself to bad experiences by one group, based on the bad behavior of another. You are not obligated to teach, but there is no mandate for the promotion of a *** personality.

caeliusstarbreaker

https://m.warhistoryonline.com/history/7-battles-terrain-decisive.html

Here is some added material to skim through where use of terrain, which is literally all los is, made the difference.

usmguy1234

Just ignore them until they are ready for a legitimate fight. They more than likely have better mobility than you and chasing them and landing the occasional attack is just making them stronger (zos logic).

idk

OP wants us to nerf our own playstyle and bring it down to the level of the new players as some means to help them. That is like thinking the worst NBA team would improve by playing a high school team because the other NBA teams are just to tough.

Miriel

@zyk
your missing the point, its not that you cant do it, its the fact that most that do it, do it with the intent to bait new players, wich serves no purpose, the excuses thats its about to survive, etc... is just BS, you know it, i know it, anyone thats been here know it... most of you that i talk to even admitt, you do it, couse you can, and its easy fights...

Help the new players instead and fight the skilled players...

Miriel

@idk
its funny... almost all of you "git good!" guys say you want the good fight, aint you shooting yourself in the foot ?... how is it a good fight to fight people that essentially cant fight back ?... if you truely git good and help them, there will be more good fights for real...

What you are trying to say is that a good fight is just when the other side cant fight back ?...

Couse we all have a choise how to play, some CHOOSE to ride all the way behind lines, knowing people with perhaps not the best skill will show up, and when they do, they farm them, and when good players come, they try to run away... you can also choose to go fight at other places

frozywozy

Hahahaha this thread is amazing. you're god damn right @Miriel - and then you ask those veteran players who have been playing since release and excel at the game. I'm honest here, some of those players are really good. You ask them why they play on Sotha or Shor where most of new players will go first, they will answer it's because they cannot handle the lag of Vivec. While I agree that Vivec is unplayable at primetime, you will very rarely see those people going on Vivec even during off hours when it's really playable. They know that their best chance to make successful 1vX clips / plays is to go on the campaign with the most amount of new players.

And if you don't believe me, just watch carefuly the amount of champion points of enemies in the clips they post on the forums. The average is usually 100-200 bellow the cap lol..

Some random names you have never seen before.. Some people just care more about their ego and showing off rather than getting into real challenging fights against people of the same caliber.

idk

Miriel wrote: »

@idk
its funny... almost all of you "git good!" guys say you want the good fight, aint you shooting yourself in the foot ?... how is it a good fight to fight people that essentially cant fight back ?

Why would you advocate dumbing the game down to the level of someone who has yet to learn to play the game. That is exactly what you are suggesting. You are suggesting players not use what is available to them legitimately because some poor new player does not understand and with your idea they never would have a chance.

In other words, why would you want to take away the opportunity for a new player to learn?

zyk

Miriel wrote: »

your missing the point, its not that you cant do it, its the fact that most that do it, do it with the intent to bait new players, wich serves no purpose, the excuses thats its about to survive, etc... is just BS, you know it, i know it, anyone thats been here know it... most of you that i talk to even admitt, you do it, couse you can, and its easy fights...

Help the new players instead and fight the skilled players...

I don't think I've missed the point. I just disagree with this particular argument. I don't think utilizing LOS is intrinsically a problem. The problem you're describing is one of intent which can be very difficult to discern.

I agree there are many experienced players who look for easier opponents for outnumbered fights. I've been outspoken about that conduct in different ways over the years. I think it's toxic to the growth of the game to intentionally seek out players less effective than oneself.

I think the OP is a bad example because ZOS has basically said they envision holding resources as a way that small groups and solo players can contribute to the alliance war. So what's a small scale player to do if they take and hold a resource and only new players show up to fight them?

I've only played PVP in a few spurts over the past year, but I think the situation is much better than it was a year ago. Small scale players aren't stacking on one or two factions as much as they used to and it's more common to see small scalers show up to help win back a resource. Furthermore, truly competitive dueling and GvG scenes have emerged over the past year as a way for players to prove themselves.

frozywozy wrote: »

Hahahaha this thread is amazing. you're god damn right Miriel - and then you ask those veteran players who have been playing since release and excel at the game. I'm honest here, some of those players are really good. You ask them why they play on Sotha or Shor where most of new players will go first, they will answer it's because they cannot handle the lag of Vivec. While I agree that Vivec is unplayable at primetime, you will very rarely see those people going on Vivec even during off hours when it's really playable. They know that their best chance to make successful 1vX clips / plays is to go on the campaign with the most amount of new players.

You'd be surprised by how many admit to this privately in a guilty pleasure sort of way.

Miriel

@zyk @idk
then why say they want good challenging fights... there is nothing challenging and there is nothing git good with it... espechially since its a choice of intent trying to seek out players that they instead could help... instead they put this into practice, doing it for hours, and then think its some good playing, or skill... If good players finally show up, they try to run away from a good challenging fight, isnt that ironic ?. wasent that the thing those players wanted ?

If you want to face good players and face good fights seek those out, not the new players...

crazy_catman21

Tldr just stop chasing ppl around towers & no reason to QQ

Elong

So are we saying delete terrain from eso now?

Miriel

@Elong
no im saying, dont say you want a good challenging fight, and talk about skill... when you with intent seek out players you know wont challange you... and if anyone that can fight you comes, you run away...

So why talk about skill and challenging fights ?... help those that needs help and fight those that can challange you, if its a good fight you want ?!?

idk

Elong wrote: »

So are we saying delete terrain from eso now?

No. Miriel just wants us to avoid using them.

Somehow attacking or defending a resource is now seeking out players we know will not challenge us.

OP is wrong with his suggestion. No doubt . It is upon the new players to seek out information and groups they can learn with. Not for experienced players to play like they have no idea what they are doing.

LeifErickson

If you think these players that "los abusers" are killing are actually willing to take the help from the one who killed them, then you are very wrong. Instead they tbag and hate whisper their attacker. I have even tried to help people like that in the past and they won't listen to you. Most even take it as an offense and can't understand in any possible way that what they are doing isn't effective.

Elong

frozywozy wrote: »

Hahahaha this thread is amazing. you're god damn right @Miriel - and then you ask those veteran players who have been playing since release and excel at the game. I'm honest here, some of those players are really good. You ask them why they play on Sotha or Shor where most of new players will go first, they will answer it's because they cannot handle the lag of Vivec. While I agree that Vivec is unplayable at primetime, you will very rarely see those people going on Vivec even during off hours when it's really playable. They know that their best chance to make successful 1vX clips / plays is to go on the campaign with the most amount of new players.

And if you don't believe me, just watch carefuly the amount of champion points of enemies in the clips they post on the forums. The average is usually 100-200 bellow the cap lol..

Some random names you have never seen before.. Some people just care more about their ego and showing off rather than getting into real challenging fights against people of the same caliber.

And some people like sitting in 16 man groups pressing 2 buttons.

Miriel

@Elong
Thats not skill, nor is it a challanging fight... Im not going to tell you how you should or shouldent play, if you want to pick on new players couse you cant handle a real challanging fight, or lack skill for it... then by all means

Just dont say you want challaging fights or that it requires skill... its like saying a person a dial up and ten year old rig play on par with a person with fiber and latest tech... its for same reason addons and certain hardware gives you a handicap when fighting, but that isnt skill...

Its alright, i again just state help the new players... helping them leads to more fights that gives a chalange and that is in my opinion win win for everyone...

And as for helping people, yes not all want to get help, but some will, and its also a matter of how you propose it...