Is sorc OP in pvp?

DDuke

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Before last couple of game updates mag sorc could indeed have been one of the best classes for both PvP and PvE without a doubt. Then Morrowind and now Horns of the Reach came and things definitely right now feel much better balance wise than they have in a long time. You can make an "op" mag sorc (pet build especially), but at the same time you can make an op DK and templar as well.

Balance feels pretty good right now outside of the fact that some builds can still have healing that is I would fairly say op. Thankfully ZOS says they are on the trail of toning down healing a bit.

I'll have to agree with this, balance definitely feels better now than what it was - I think it's largely due to the Necropotence & Amberplasm nerfs.

So far playing a high dmg stamblade in no-CP I've had no problems with sorcs this patch (except in 1vX, Haunting Curse & Wrath are still annoying af).

CyrusArya

Thogard wrote: »

I think the biggest problem with sorc balance is the perception of their strength. You can have a really close fight with a sorc where you ALMOST make it past their shields but the sorc wins. But you won't know that you almost won because the sorc HP stays at max. It leads to the illusion that sorcs are unkillable and OP.

This is exactly it. The root of the the issue is the perception of how strong sorcs are, not their actual strength. And this is a function of how it mechanically works. Thats why I always say its just a learn to play issue, and more specifically "learn how sorcs work" issue. I just simply encourage everyone who thinks sorc is so broken to play one and duel a good stamina player, or fight in an outnumbered 1vX situation, or any fight where they are being vigorously focused by multiple players and then come back and say how strong sorc is or isnt.

I encourage this for any class. You will never truly understand the strengths and weaknesses of a class based on fighting them alone. You have to see it from both perspectives to truly understand.

Thogard

I will say that in the deathmatch mode for battlegrounds, sorcs are OP. Sorcs get a disproportionate number of killing blows because of their two executes.

What I'd like to see to fix that is a significantly decreased range on mage's wrath. I don't like that sorcs from team A can stand far away from a fight between team B and team C and steal all the kills with their execute. Shortening the range wouldn't hurt their DPS or 1v1 ability, but it would prevent "kill stealing" which is the only issue I have with sorcs.

And yes I kill steal on my sorc all the time. 27:0 in BGs is super fun but kinda cheap.

technohic

I personally leveled a sorc intending to replace my magplar because I thought it would be better. In a lot of ways it is. Burst is better, mobility is better, resource management is better, heal from twilight matriarch is better but only because my Templar is built more on the tanky side and ultimate generation. With that, my Templar winds up a lot tankier to where it feels about right for a trade off with how I've built both characters. The only problem with that is it gets erased when I stack shields. But I have to say, I really dislike that play style personally. It's. It all it's cracked up to be refreshing those on rotation. With that I feel like I prefer my Templar still since I can stay on the offensive.

Of course I could always build for more damage on my Templar as well and opt to use harness magicka and healing ward but it would be as silly as tanking my sorc all heavy and giving up shields to try to be more tanky like my Templar (which I admit to doing)

Thogard

Yeah I don't think people understand that if you stack three shields then, in the best case scenario, you're losing half of your ability cast time to shield stacking.

Shields last 6s. Can cast 1 ability a second. Putting up 3 shields means 3 seconds out of every 6 seconds are shields. If you're CCd, there's a fourth second down the drain... self buff? Fifth second. Execute? Sixth second.. then you need to recast those shields and you haven't done any dmg at all. And that execute is only on somebody for 4 seconds...

I actually run the weaker morph of hardened ward for the mag regen and the fact that it lasts 10s. Gives me more burst potential if i am freecasting. Healing ward and resto ult are backbarred.

But there's no doubt in my mind that if my mag sorc and my Stam DK fought, my Stam DK would win. Playing a sorc has taught me all their weaknesses, especially around timing CC for when a shield is about to go down / time out.

Malic

Will the snowflakes ever be happy? What the hell are you going to do if ZOS actually nerf's sorcs what will you QQ about then?

Can someone show me the business plan and dossier of what the next outrage will be? Im all queued up to QQ about Warden birds but I dont want o be odd man out.

BTW, you kill magi sorc with 2 simple moves

1. use an immovable pot
2. DPS them

This requires them to be on their back bar or spamming shields, the best way to handle ANY aggressive DPS in Cyrodiil is to DPS them aggressively.

Now if you cant do that, thats your problem. I dont give ZOS much credit but I do give them credit on counter play abilities. You can tank up, or dps up, sorcs arent easy, and good experienced players on them are a *** to handle but they can be beat.

no need for nerf's, buffs for other classes? Im all eyes

MisterBigglesworth

Thogard wrote: »

I think the biggest problem with sorc balance is the perception of their strength. You can have a really close fight with a sorc where you ALMOST make it past their shields but the sorc wins. But you won't know that you almost won because the sorc HP stays at max. It leads to the illusion that sorcs are unkillable and OP.

I doubt many remember this, but back during beta in 2013 you could actually see enemy players' Stamina and Magicka bars (with an addon) but ZOS didn't like it so it got removed. Obviously this would've been beneficial fighting Sorcs. Might have even removed this idea that you're just banging your head against a brick wall.

Gilvoth

sorcerer is overpowered in both pve and pvp. we have multiple threads, videos, and graph charts to prove this.
but, no matter what proof is shown and no matter how many people complain about it, it has stayed this way since beta 2013.
will we ever see sorcerers brought inline and / or balanced or the other classes brought up to match the damage output and shielding that the sorcerers have?

Biro123

Thogard wrote: »

I will say that in the deathmatch mode for battlegrounds, sorcs are OP. Sorcs get a disproportionate number of killing blows because of their two executes.

What I'd like to see to fix that is a significantly decreased range on mage's wrath. I don't like that sorcs from team A can stand far away from a fight between team B and team C and steal all the kills with their execute. Shortening the range wouldn't hurt their DPS or 1v1 ability, but it would prevent "kill stealing" which is the only issue I have with sorcs.

And yes I kill steal on my sorc all the time. 27:0 in BGs is super fun but kinda cheap.

Lol, no - they just need to change how the scoring works.

DarkMatter909

I admit i am not the best pvper by far but i'm not a trash noob. Sorcs are no more op than dks who knows how to play their class and its strengths. And its the same for nightblades.
Before i go into pvp, with my sorc mind you, i have already accepted that there are people who are better than me and will kill me. I know a good stam player in the first few seconds of a fight and i know if i drop my shield for a second or they run me out of stamina, i'm done.
Again this is something i can accept. Thats the problem with a lot of these threads, i don't think people can accept dying a lot and especially to a sorc that did it so easily.
I hate to break it to you, a nightblade can do it just as easily and usually you don't see it coming and you don't get to react at all before you die.
So i try to do what i know to be my strengths against that class/resource type, sometimes good results some times bad. Like many above me have said learn from your deaths and adapt. I have played all classes and that really helps you know your enemies.

Electrone_Magnus

I play stam dk which is kinda weak after the nerfs and I can assure you they are not op in any way except the shields. They have way too predictable burst and c drags can be dodge rolled or blocked easily if you have good reflexes and have done vma final boss many times. Now the shields can be op because they're too cheap and too big so its hard to kill them. Due to shacklebreaker/ bloodspawn/ amberplasm they can break free too often. So they need to get their resource cost of abilities increased or the sets need to be nerfed in order to make them die due to lack of stam or mag.

I am more scared of mag nightblades this patch as they have everything a sorc has and way higher burst for some reason(I mean good players).

Morgul667

I seriously dont die to sorc more than other classes...

Maybe that's because I played one back in the old days... I dunno.

Dont get me wrong a good sorc is hard to kill, but so is a good nb, a good dk, a good templar, or maybe worst a good warden.

Drummerx04

Malic wrote: »

Will the snowflakes ever be happy? What the hell are you going to do if ZOS actually nerf's sorcs what will you QQ about then?

Can someone show me the business plan and dossier of what the next outrage will be? Im all queued up to QQ about Warden birds but I dont want o be odd man out.

BTW, you kill magi sorc with 2 simple moves

1. use an immovable pot
2. DPS them

This requires them to be on their back bar or spamming shields, the best way to handle ANY aggressive DPS in Cyrodiil is to DPS them aggressively.

Now if you cant do that, thats your problem. I dont give ZOS much credit but I do give them credit on counter play abilities. You can tank up, or dps up, sorcs arent easy, and good experienced players on them are a *** to handle but they can be beat.

no need for nerf's, buffs for other classes? Im all eyes

This is literally how to kill a sorc 101. Damage shields are not nearly as strong as some people make them out to be. They handle BURST damage very well, but they are absolute crap against sustained damage. If a good stamina player comes at me, sees my frag procs, dodges them, and just pressures the crap out of me, I don't have the sustain to just sit there and shield them forever ESPECIALLY factoring in cost poisons. I need to move or I will eventually die to attrition.

Weaknesses of Shields:

1. Fairly expensive
2. Each shield is a bar slot. Seems small, but it means I'm sacrificing something to have each one.
3. The shields do not benefit from armor mitigation. You can't crit them, but your 15k tooltip skill will put a hell of a dent into them. Hell, two people hitting with 7k tooltip skills while weaving light attacks will just about take them out completely.
4. They are an extremely proactive defense. If you do not upkeep them, they do not save you.
5. Blocking does not reduce damage to shields.
6. Shieldbreaker: This set is broken powerful against shield users. Not even just magsorc. One bad player running it may not be an issue. You figure out who it is, and you NUKE HIM. A good player? 2k virtually unavoidable damage per second straight to your health pool. In an open field against a decent player, you are dead.

Sorc self heals are just about non-existent or at least negligible to the point of irrelevance against good players. Oh what's that? I can get surge to heal for like 1k hps IF I get a crit every single second? Or I can double slot killable pets to heal me for maybe 8-10k if I REALLY build for it.

The only heal that sorcs can get that has a really reliable saving power is resto ult. And that gets rid of our offensive ult, so if the regular sorc burst is not enough to kill someone, we will eventually die to attrition.

Here's another fun thing about sorcs. There is an addon that tells you we are throwing a frag at you with a big old loud and visual warning. Dodging our burst should be easy if you are willing to stoop to what is essentially cheating approved by ZoS.

technohic

After playing last night on my templar for the first time in a while; I started getting my ass kicked but I held my own a little more as the night went on and I had a sorc roll up on my fighting a DK, which was going nowhere fast. I figured out my build does OK with sorcs as I have a good uptime on shield wall which he fragged himself off of at first; and as long as I kept purging that takes care of the curse burst. Realizing that I wasn't going to win the fight just trying to tank these 2 by the time he recovered from the stun, I saw the frag coming again and mist formed toward a wall for LOS away from the sorc, DK hot on my heals. By the time the sorc cleared the LOS I javelined him and started to head around the next corner still fighting the DK. Thought maybe if not kill that I could keep that up as my shield wall was almost back again but right when I was about to hit it, a templar came in with a toppling charge and that pretty much sealed my fate. I had made the mistake of letting my health go low and prioritze watching my ultimate rather than get a purge and BOL or POT on CD.

TLDR of what seems to be pointless? I was not worried about the sorc really. It was a matter of L2P that did me in. I isolated myself in an area where I knew there were a lot of players running around and I tunneled in on that defensive ultimate rather than my health and surroundings. You really get better playing your character more but at the same time, I had learned what to watch for by playing around with my sorc.

I don't think anything is too terrible right now, really. I ran into one guy once that hit me with 15k cutting dive which was crazy considering most things hit me around 2 K save for a snipe or something I am not expecting. Pretty sure that was an emp warden though.

Lord-Otto

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

sorcerer is overpowered in both pve and pvp. we have multiple threads, videos, and graph charts to prove this.
but, no matter what proof is shown and no matter how many people complain about it, it has stayed this way since beta 2013.
will we ever see sorcerers brought inline and / or balanced or the other classes brought up to match the damage output and shielding that the sorcerers have?

You know, claiming that sorcs have always been OP, despite original non-refreshable shields, original magDKs, old CP system, Dark Brotherhood nerfs, VD Bombblade era, Procapolypse, ...
Just speaks volumes how incredibly blinded you are and how little you know.

Gilvoth

my comment is truth

Lord-Otto

And those five magsorcs on the main campaign during DB days would agree with you.

ak_pvp

Lord-Otto wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

sorcerer is overpowered in both pve and pvp. we have multiple threads, videos, and graph charts to prove this.
but, no matter what proof is shown and no matter how many people complain about it, it has stayed this way since beta 2013.
will we ever see sorcerers brought inline and / or balanced or the other classes brought up to match the damage output and shielding that the sorcerers have?

You know, claiming that sorcs have always been OP, despite original non-refreshable shields, original magDKs, old CP system, Dark Brotherhood nerfs, VD Bombblade era, Procapolypse, ...
Just speaks volumes how incredibly blinded you are and how little you know.

For the record, sorcs have always been a good choice, not OP, but good and at the top of the pile before. Even through the dark brotherhood nerfs, which didn't really hurt in practice, just made spamming worse. And the time is the same today, proving that it was a non issue.

All those specs mentioned were nerfed to ***.

IEatCivics

You were killed by an organized group, not by the class specifically. They, in an organized fashion, dropped negates and destros. This can be easily sorc dropping negate with (insent ANy CLass) dropping the destro.

Even worse, what my group does is run multiple negate tanks, multiple bombs and multiple wardens with multiple healers so we can make a line of negates, while bombing in those negates with NB fears, with the wardens running permafrost (which snares and stuns everyone in the negate/bombs while offering 30% less damage to the squishy bombers in the permafrost), aoe defiling, aoe minor maiming and aoe immobilizing while our healers are making sure our HP is up. This is used offensively and defensively.

Here's my most recent clip of my group doing this in a Guild v Guild. The build video is also linked for the Warden. With an organized group you can be an overwhelming force and make it that other people come on the forums screaming for nerfs to things that they don't understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq8RLnEPLHs

Waffennacht

IEatCivics wrote: »

You were killed by an organized group, not by the class specifically. They, in an organized fashion, dropped negates and destros. This can be easily sorc dropping negate with (insent ANy CLass) dropping the destro.

Even worse, what my group does is run multiple negate tanks, multiple bombs and multiple wardens with multiple healers so we can make a line of negates, while bombing in those negates with NB fears, with the wardens running permafrost (which snares and stuns everyone in the negate/bombs while offering 30% less damage to the squishy bombers in the permafrost), aoe defiling, aoe minor maiming and aoe immobilizing while our healers are making sure our HP is up. This is used offensively and defensively.

Here's my most recent clip of my group doing this in a Guild v Guild. The build video is also linked for the Warden. With an organized group you can be an overwhelming force and make it that other people come on the forums screaming for nerfs to things that they don't understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq8RLnEPLHs

Group play... Blah

IEatCivics

Waffennacht wrote: »

IEatCivics wrote: »

You were killed by an organized group, not by the class specifically. They, in an organized fashion, dropped negates and destros. This can be easily sorc dropping negate with (insent ANy CLass) dropping the destro.

Even worse, what my group does is run multiple negate tanks, multiple bombs and multiple wardens with multiple healers so we can make a line of negates, while bombing in those negates with NB fears, with the wardens running permafrost (which snares and stuns everyone in the negate/bombs while offering 30% less damage to the squishy bombers in the permafrost), aoe defiling, aoe minor maiming and aoe immobilizing while our healers are making sure our HP is up. This is used offensively and defensively.

Here's my most recent clip of my group doing this in a Guild v Guild. The build video is also linked for the Warden. With an organized group you can be an overwhelming force and make it that other people come on the forums screaming for nerfs to things that they don't understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq8RLnEPLHs

Group play... Blah

Group play is so good for Wardens though.

Lord-Otto

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

sorcerer is overpowered in both pve and pvp. we have multiple threads, videos, and graph charts to prove this.
but, no matter what proof is shown and no matter how many people complain about it, it has stayed this way since beta 2013.
will we ever see sorcerers brought inline and / or balanced or the other classes brought up to match the damage output and shielding that the sorcerers have?

You know, claiming that sorcs have always been OP, despite original non-refreshable shields, original magDKs, old CP system, Dark Brotherhood nerfs, VD Bombblade era, Procapolypse, ...
Just speaks volumes how incredibly blinded you are and how little you know.

For the record, sorcs have always been a good choice, not OP, but good and at the top of the pile before. Even through the dark brotherhood nerfs, which didn't really hurt in practice, just made spamming worse. And the time is the same today, proving that it was a non issue.

All those specs mentioned were nerfed to ***.

I can agree with magsorcs typically having been a good class. But that wasn't the claim. I was arguing perpetual OPness. And it is well-documented that magsorcs were outshined by the mentioned examples. Not OP at all.

Betsararie

In BGs absolutely not. No bastion- no argument to call them OP.

In CP PvP they are strong, but likely not OP. Keep in mind, I am fully recognizing they are one of the top performing classes. But they are still entirely beatable, so it is hard for me to call them OP.

Remember 9/10 sorcs are trash, and it is just that 1/10 that is absolutely destroying you that is getting the forum folks triggered.

What matters more is how good the player actually is.

Morgul667

Nowadays I tend to think they are no OP Classes but just some very experienced players, some players with experience and some beginners. This is fine and can be frustrating to some, but this is definitely not a reason to call for nerf of whatever happens to be on the death recap.

Emma_Overload

GeneralPardon wrote: »

I was defending earlier at Aleswell as an stamblade and a couple of AD sorcs basically stormed in with negates and destro ult and there was no way to get out of the negates and destro ults.
What can I do about this or is the sorc just OP?

Move to Imperial City where Stamblades are OP AF and there are hardly any Mag Sorcs except me.

Betsararie

Morgul667 wrote: »

Nowadays I tend to think they are no OP Classes but just some very experienced players, some players with experience and some beginners. This is fine and can be frustrating to some, but this is definitely not a reason to call for nerf of whatever happens to be on the death recap.

Oh, definitely

What I think is happening is there are players (from each class) who are OP.

Those people are OP. They have "gamed" the system by throwing the mathematically strongest build possible together, and they are also good at the game.

Then an inexperienced person witnesses this and thinks it must be the class that is to blame, because they can't comprehend putting a good build together (or else they'd have done it), and they also can't comprehend being good at the game (or else they would be). So by their perception, there can be no other possible explanation other than the class must be 'OP' and 'needs nerf'.

What possibly has happened is there are more good sorcs than the other classes out there (probably true) for whichever reason and that explains why so many players are convinced the class is completely unbalanced. When, what really is happening is those players are simply far more skilled, and their builds are also far superior.

generalmyrick

GeneralPardon wrote: »

I was defending earlier at Aleswell as an stamblade and a couple of AD sorcs basically stormed in with negates and destro ult and there was no way to get out of the negates and destro ults.
What can I do about this or is the sorc just OP?

undeniably.

ForsakenSin

GeneralPardon wrote: »

I was defending earlier at Aleswell as an stamblade and a couple of AD sorcs basically stormed in with negates and destro ult and there was no way to get out of the negates and destro ults.
What can I do about this or is the sorc just OP?

IlCanis_LupuslI

Morgul667 wrote: »

I seriously dont die to sorc more than other classes...

Maybe that's because I played one back in the old days... I dunno.

Dont get me wrong a good sorc is hard to kill, but so is a good nb, a good dk, a good templar, or maybe worst a good warden.

Ever met a good Werwolf???

jonzhao68

I see posts like these and all I can think is, "Sweet, I picked the best class!"