Is sorc OP in pvp?

Alpheu5

Irylia wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

sorcerer is overpowered in both pve and pvp. we have multiple threads, videos, and graph charts to prove this.
but, no matter what proof is shown and no matter how many people complain about it, it has stayed this way since beta 2013.
will we ever see sorcerers brought inline and / or balanced or the other classes brought up to match the damage output and shielding that the sorcerers have?

You are so right. Share the holy graphs with me, so that together, we may end the reign of op sorcs.

Check & mate

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Not OP but in the hands of a skilled player they are extremely powerful. Note the word "skilled".

plenty of sorcs are easy kills. There are a bunch that aren't. Same can be said for any class. Honestly I think really good sword and board tank DK who still manages lots of burst are harder to kill than a sorc.

You have to know how sorcs fight them counter it. You won't always win, I know I don't and I consider myself a good player, not the best but better than most of the general population.

If they nerf sorc shields anymore they will be sitting ducks.

Stan sorcs can be pretty tough, I get it. But again, just exploit the mistakes they make.

Lord-Otto

"When we nerf Streak, all those bad sorc kids will perish!" - 1.6

"When shield duration is nerfed, those sorc scrubs will get rekt!" - Thieves Guild

"When Pirate Skeleton doesn't work on shields, these crutch sorcs will get owned!" - One Tamriel

...

At some point, certain people should just admit that there are better players. Those have been playing their sorc class and have adapted to the changes. Thus they got prevailed and got stronger. They did not waste their time crying on the forums trying to nerf something that will in the end not help conceal the fact some people are just plain bad.

Speed_Kills

So I hear that sorc shields are OP.... anyone want to fight me on my magicka sorc? I won't cast a single bubble.

If you die to a wardless sorc, does you dying to a sorc become a L2p issue then? Or maybe it was all along....

Killset

Lord-Otto wrote: »

"When we nerf Streak, all those bad sorc kids will perish!" - 1.6

"When shield duration is nerfed, those sorc scrubs will get rekt!" - Thieves Guild

"When Pirate Skeleton doesn't work on shields, these crutch sorcs will get owned!" - One Tamriel

...

At some point, certain people should just admit that there are better players. Those have been playing their sorc class and have adapted to the changes. Thus they got prevailed and got stronger. They did not waste their time crying on the forums trying to nerf something that will in the end not help conceal the fact some people are just plain bad.

And yet a quick review of threads you have created call for nerfs ranging from wrecking blow, gap closers, night blades, to stamina being too "mobile" for your tastes. Interesting, instead of admitting that there just might be better players out there or you are just plain bad, you decided to waste your time crying on the forums.

Betsararie

Lord-Otto wrote: »

"When we nerf Streak, all those bad sorc kids will perish!" - 1.6

"When shield duration is nerfed, those sorc scrubs will get rekt!" - Thieves Guild

"When Pirate Skeleton doesn't work on shields, these crutch sorcs will get owned!" - One Tamriel

...

At some point, certain people should just admit that there are better players. Those have been playing their sorc class and have adapted to the changes. Thus they got prevailed and got stronger. They did not waste their time crying on the forums trying to nerf something that will in the end not help conceal the fact some people are just plain bad.

I have to say, I agree with this.

The funny thing is sorc is actually one of the classes that requires the most skill to play. This is evidenced by the ratio of ineffective to effective sorcs that you see out there.

If you knew what some of us guys are throwing together with sorc and how hard it was to execute, I really think a lot of the cries for nerfs would go away.

Don't let a handful of good players ruin your experience. Adapt and overcome.

ak_pvp

Lord-Otto wrote: »

"When we nerf Streak, all those bad sorc kids will perish!" - 1.6

"When shield duration is nerfed, those sorc scrubs will get rekt!" - Thieves Guild

"When Pirate Skeleton doesn't work on shields, these crutch sorcs will get owned!" - One Tamriel

...

At some point, certain people should just admit that there are better players. Those have been playing their sorc class and have adapted to the changes. Thus they got prevailed and got stronger. They did not waste their time crying on the forums trying to nerf something that will in the end not help conceal the fact some people are just plain bad.

The streak nerf was to stop perma streakers out doing horses, sorc wasn't an issue then, because they were squishy with mobility and damage, only when stat stacking and CP gave them massive shields. They were a good class, but the QQ was for a DK nerf for 1.6. Hell, I'd personally remove the streak cost increase and halve its base cost, make roots affect it. Then you get a useful movability and survival mechanic with a solid counter.

The shield duration was a nerf no one wanted. They made spamming shields worse, and *** over the pve players who didn't stack them.

And pirate skelly was an obvious oversight from devs and was never supposed to work like it did. Maybe making shields undefilable giving a free 30% damage reduction without having the drawbacks was mildly overpowered? People had an issue with shields before, and this wasn't to "nerf sorcs" it was to revert an effective buff.

I play my class almost exclusively and can beat or stalemate anyone in a 1v1 on it. But my class has to sacrifice something for its strengths, good tankability and ok damage, but below average sustain and mobility. Sorcs have top dog in all these areas, a nerf to shields won't kill it. Because everyone can see what the problem is, since in BGs no one says sorc OP (Killsteals excluded) or no one says nerf NB shielding. All the above average players see something wrong with it, unfortunately some worse players cry for nerf everything in the class.

Lord-Otto

Killset wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

"When we nerf Streak, all those bad sorc kids will perish!" - 1.6

"When shield duration is nerfed, those sorc scrubs will get rekt!" - Thieves Guild

"When Pirate Skeleton doesn't work on shields, these crutch sorcs will get owned!" - One Tamriel

...

At some point, certain people should just admit that there are better players. Those have been playing their sorc class and have adapted to the changes. Thus they got prevailed and got stronger. They did not waste their time crying on the forums trying to nerf something that will in the end not help conceal the fact some people are just plain bad.

And yet a quick review of threads you have created call for nerfs ranging from wrecking blow, gap closers, night blades, to stamina being too "mobile" for your tastes. Interesting, instead of admitting that there just might be better players out there or you are just plain bad, you decided to waste your time crying on the forums.

And if you could actually read properly, you would discover that those complaints were with zerging in mind or just plain annoying combat behaviour.

FriedEggSandwich

montiferus wrote: »

Sorc needs a slight nerf. Pick just one of these and all will be good with the world

- Shields (recommended)
- Increased streak cost
- Mages wrath

Right now Sorc has everything going for it (burst, mobility, defense) with no major drawback.

All that said its not like they are dominating in PVP so they only need a minor adjustment to make them more in line.

Shield stacking should have been dealt with a long time ago; harness stacking with hardened has been a root cause of complaint since forever. Individual shields need no nerf; this only encourages stacking and penalises non-shield stackers.

Streak is fine, in fact it could do with a cost decrease if shield stacking were to go. Streak jealousy is common. I believe much sorc hate just boils down to streak jealousy. I mean, who doesn't want to be mobile? But the exponential cost increase is what keeps it in check, it doesn't need anything else. If you use it more than twice in 4s in a critical situation you are screwed. And the cc is just free cc-immunity for your opponent. The aoe cc is slightly more useful for something like a negate, but in a duel streak cc often just means I can't knock my opponent down with a frag.

Mages wrath is a tricky one. I would say it's fine because I'm biased (it's one of my fave skills), but if I'm honest I sometimes find myself without an argument when people complain about the pre-proc, other than it helps to line up otherwise clunky burst. Wrath defo doesn't need anything drastic. I would be more inclined to say that implosion needs a nerf back to what it used to be (disintegration). For the longest time (like up to about 6 months ago) wrath actually didn't do execute damage until the target was below 18%, despite the tooltip saying 20%. I wouldn't have thought the extra 2% would have made much difference but it made the skill feel more reliable, and from my perspective most of the complaints about wrath seem to have come since zos fixed the execute threshold to match the tooltip. Food for thought.

Derra

amir412 wrote: »

Sorcs shields should not scale off max mag, thats the only thing i would change.

That´s like saying healing should not scale of maxresource/dmgstat and crit.

It´s a stupid statement to make.

Every heal scales on all offensive stats. Shields only scaling of magica is not an advantage it´s a drawback.

Killset

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

"When we nerf Streak, all those bad sorc kids will perish!" - 1.6

"When shield duration is nerfed, those sorc scrubs will get rekt!" - Thieves Guild

"When Pirate Skeleton doesn't work on shields, these crutch sorcs will get owned!" - One Tamriel

...

At some point, certain people should just admit that there are better players. Those have been playing their sorc class and have adapted to the changes. Thus they got prevailed and got stronger. They did not waste their time crying on the forums trying to nerf something that will in the end not help conceal the fact some people are just plain bad.

And yet a quick review of threads you have created call for nerfs ranging from wrecking blow, gap closers, night blades, to stamina being too "mobile" for your tastes. Interesting, instead of admitting that there just might be better players out there or you are just plain bad, you decided to waste your time crying on the forums.

And if you could actually read properly, you would discover that those complaints were with zerging in mind or just plain annoying combat behaviour.

LOL... ummm.. no.

technohic

Derra wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Sorcs shields should not scale off max mag, thats the only thing i would change.

That´s like saying healing should not scale of maxresource/dmgstat and crit.

It´s a stupid statement to make.

Every heal scales on all offensive stats. Shields only scaling of magica is not an advantage it´s a drawback.

Well; I'm not sure its all that stupid. Probably the wrong way to go about it but you hear a lot of complaints about huge heals as well. When they removed soft caps, it has become a big issue IMO. Usually then, their nerfs affect people who run more balanced builds and has driven us to this meta of stacking either a ton of offense or going full perma-block or health tanks.

Derra

technohic wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Sorcs shields should not scale off max mag, thats the only thing i would change.

That´s like saying healing should not scale of maxresource/dmgstat and crit.

It´s a stupid statement to make.

Every heal scales on all offensive stats. Shields only scaling of magica is not an advantage it´s a drawback.

Well; I'm not sure its all that stupid. Probably the wrong way to go about it but you hear a lot of complaints about huge heals as well. When they removed soft caps, it has become a big issue IMO. Usually then, their nerfs affect people who run more balanced builds and has driven us to this meta of stacking either a ton of offense or going full perma-block or health tanks.

Ofc it´s only stupid in the isolated form it was posted here.

Love the bolded part as it 100% sums up zos inability to find balance changes that will only work on the problematic builds instead of pushing people towards them bc they nerfed the base mechanic.

I think it could work in a way that shields get limited in size by a chars maximum HP (so for really huge shields there would be a tradeoff to get higher HP on top of that - reducing dmg or sustain).
Lets say a char can have a maximum of all shields combine that is 160% of their HP - halved by battlespirit.
A char can only heal 100% of the healed targets HP with a single instant heal - again halved by battlespirit.
A hot can only heal 30% of the targets HP with a single tick - again battlespirit.

That´s a way of limiting those mechanics without reindroducing caps - you just require tradeoffs or people accept if they don´t want to make these tradeoffs they will see skills not working to their full potential.
Numbers would have to be tweaked ofc.

Bam_Bam

I made a sorc thinking "I R GUNN BE INVINSIBLE!! RAWWWWRRR!" I got slapped silly by a magicka templar. Then by a stamknight. then by a magknight. Then I killed a bunny (i was aiming at a stamblade but accidentally DESTROYED AND COOKED teh bunny. then the stamblade murdered me).

Moral of the story - if you dunno how to play a mage, they aren't OP. they only seem that when you see someone competent playing one.

(If I'm on my stamblade, the roles are reversed - I'll bide my time and kill them nasty once tey are mid-fight with someone else and have no resources )

technohic

Derra wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Sorcs shields should not scale off max mag, thats the only thing i would change.

That´s like saying healing should not scale of maxresource/dmgstat and crit.

It´s a stupid statement to make.

Every heal scales on all offensive stats. Shields only scaling of magica is not an advantage it´s a drawback.

Well; I'm not sure its all that stupid. Probably the wrong way to go about it but you hear a lot of complaints about huge heals as well. When they removed soft caps, it has become a big issue IMO. Usually then, their nerfs affect people who run more balanced builds and has driven us to this meta of stacking either a ton of offense or going full perma-block or health tanks.

Ofc it´s only stupid in the isolated form it was posted here.

Love the bolded part as it 100% sums up zos inability to find balance changes that will only work on the problematic builds instead of pushing people towards them bc they nerfed the base mechanic.

I think it could work in a way that shields get limited in size by a chars maximum HP (so for really huge shields there would be a tradeoff to get higher HP on top of that - reducing dmg or sustain).
Lets say a char can have a maximum of all shields combine that is 160% of their HP - halved by battlespirit.
A char can only heal 100% of the healed targets HP with a single instant heal - again halved by battlespirit.
A hot can only heal 30% of the targets HP with a single tick - again battlespirit.

That´s a way of limiting those mechanics without reindroducing caps - you just require tradeoffs or people accept if they don´t want to make these tradeoffs they will see skills not working to their full potential.
Numbers would have to be tweaked ofc.

I like that idea at least on face value. Champion points could use the same sort of thinking where choices matter as well rather than having to separate PvP into factions on non-CP and CP. Kind of frustrating to me because I like the ideas behind a lot of the game but things like this make it feel like its a mess more and more every attempt to balance.

Alpheu5

Speed_Kills wrote: »

So I hear that sorc shields are OP.... anyone want to fight me on my magicka sorc? I won't cast a single bubble.

If you die to a wardless sorc, does you dying to a sorc become a L2p issue then? Or maybe it was all along....

Small list of comments I've gotten over the past year and a half:

• omg i keep hitting ur clannfear (by far the most common)
• shadowrend op in duels (0 from One Tamriel through Morrowind, about 4 since HotR)
• mine camper noob (Daedric Tomb)
• heavy armor sorc noob (5 light)
• you use ball of lightning? noob

There'll always be something to complain about.

montiferus

Removed as it is no longer worth arguing this point.