Shield Breaker exploiters

ToRelax

BohnT wrote: »

Just as a reminder that set has counterplay as it is no instant death and you have many opportunities to get rid of it. It's not comparable with curse+ endless fury or destroult with lotus fan. You can simply heal through the damage even when 4 ppl try to kill you just use healing ward ( do the following and be at full health) , streak through them, LoS them or start running as light attacks won't connect as you are to fast.

Against Shieldbreaker it always depends what you can do about it... if you are low hp and already engaged in a fight, you are dead unless you have resto ult or potions ready and the shieldbreaker isn't a complete idiot. Otherwise you may have a chance to escape or (if the shieldbreaker indeed is an idiot :P ) burst them down. The problem for mag Sorcs against shieldbreaker is, and always has been, that their burst heal is a shield in itself and thus can't be spammed to buy time or even completely outheal the damage against shieldbreaker (think BoL spam against some type dmg ignoring their block; lightning heavy for example, sounds ridiculous, but it would be just as useless spamming shieldbreaker against a magSorc if it didn't go through Healing Ward) and that shieldbreaker itself has no definite counter (think cleansing healing debuffs). Yes, HoTs help, but unfortunately, they are not sufficient to outheal shieldbreaker. It's a very dangerous game going against a group with a shieldbreaker even with surge, regeneration and a running healing ward, if you get your wards broken and get hit by another attack even once, that can be your demise.
Aside from that, there are, of course, also the obvious balance problems with shieldbreaker that simply shouldn't exist, like Mistform, Absorb Magic, Petrify to name a few.

About Curse, it used to be impossible to stack them, until that was changed with 1.6 to make Sorc more viable for PvE dps. I'd still like that to be changed back at least for PvP.
And yes, destro ult isn't balanced. In fact, in it's current design I think it's impossible to balance it in the first place. Doesn't excuse other imbalances I think.

Lieblingsjunge

With all the sorcs mindlessly running around spamming execute while zergsurfing, Iwould say Shieldbreaker is legitimate. After Homestead, a lot of people rerolled to Sorc, because the class is insanely strong. As a reaction to that, people went for Shield-Breaker, to counter the increasing number of sorcs. Can't blame them for adapting to the meta, hm?

As much as it sucks, this is what the players made it into. Zenimax doesn't have any responsibility here. It's like with procsets, people built tankier and tankier to survive the procsets, just as people will go with Shield-Breaker to battle the insanely strong magicka Sorc.

Derra

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

With all the sorcs mindlessly running around spamming execute while zergsurfing, Iwould say Shieldbreaker is legitimate. After Homestead, a lot of people rerolled to Sorc, because the class is insanely strong. As a reaction to that, people went for Shield-Breaker, to counter the increasing number of sorcs. Can't blame them for adapting to the meta, hm?

As much as it sucks, this is what the players made it into. Zenimax doesn't have any responsibility here. It's like with procsets, people built tankier and tankier to survive the procsets, just as people will go with Shield-Breaker to battle the insanely strong magicka Sorc.

So equip a set that in no way punishes zergsurfing sorcs (as they get passive heals from all the bol/mutagen spammers) but punishes those that actually try to stray away from the zerg.

Now that makes sense.
Or not so much.

Mojomonkeyman

ToRelax wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Just as a reminder that set has counterplay as it is no instant death and you have many opportunities to get rid of it. It's not comparable with curse+ endless fury or destroult with lotus fan. You can simply heal through the damage even when 4 ppl try to kill you just use healing ward ( do the following and be at full health) , streak through them, LoS them or start running as light attacks won't connect as you are to fast.

Against Shieldbreaker it always depends what you can do about it... if you are low hp and already engaged in a fight, you are dead unless you have resto ult or potions ready and the shieldbreaker isn't a complete idiot. Otherwise you may have a chance to escape or (if the shieldbreaker indeed is an idiot :P ) burst them down. The problem for mag Sorcs against shieldbreaker is, and always has been, that their burst heal is a shield in itself and thus can't be spammed to buy time or even completely outheal the damage against shieldbreaker (think BoL spam against some type dmg ignoring their block; lightning heavy for example, sounds ridiculous, but it would be just as useless spamming shieldbreaker against a magSorc if it didn't go through Healing Ward) and that shieldbreaker itself has no definite counter (think cleansing healing debuffs). Yes, HoTs help, but unfortunately, they are not sufficient to outheal shieldbreaker. It's a very dangerous game going against a group with a shieldbreaker even with surge, regeneration and a running healing ward, if you get your wards broken and get hit by another attack even once, that can be your demise.
Aside from that, there are, of course, also the obvious balance problems with shieldbreaker that simply shouldn't exist, like Mistform, Absorb Magic, Petrify to name a few.

About Curse, it used to be impossible to stack them, until that was changed with 1.6 to make Sorc more viable for PvE dps. I'd still like that to be changed back at least for PvP.
And yes, destro ult isn't balanced. In fact, in it's current design I think it's impossible to balance it in the first place. Doesn't excuse other imbalances I think.

That`s pretty much the point. I think no one in his/her right mind finds shield breaker actually a desirable mechanic. But reality is, the ONLY skills left that in your regular magsorcs arsenal that can be countered by a stamina class is frags & shock (partly). Anything else, including destro ult as preferred ultimate for magsorcs, is bypassing some or all forms of mitigation and is, in addition to that, stackable. Combined with the facts that those tools have been given to the most bursty range class and made hilariously easy to apply leads to magsorcs overperforming tremendously.

I feel magsorcs this patch have lost their right to complain about a single mechanic bypassing their shields. Yet, 90% of the names in this thread obiously playing magsorc refuse to even take that into consideration. Magsorcs are the new perfect xv1 class. One magsorc reduces my effective health by 8-12k just by pressing two buttons, double that for 2 magsorcs, add another magsorc and you are dead with NO COUNTER (except you are a magsorc yourself).

Glass house, throwing stones & stuff.

P.S.: I quoted you, but wasn`t directing my post at you personally.

Mojomonkeyman

Derra wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

With all the sorcs mindlessly running around spamming execute while zergsurfing, Iwould say Shieldbreaker is legitimate. After Homestead, a lot of people rerolled to Sorc, because the class is insanely strong. As a reaction to that, people went for Shield-Breaker, to counter the increasing number of sorcs. Can't blame them for adapting to the meta, hm?

As much as it sucks, this is what the players made it into. Zenimax doesn't have any responsibility here. It's like with procsets, people built tankier and tankier to survive the procsets, just as people will go with Shield-Breaker to battle the insanely strong magicka Sorc.

So equip a set that in no way punishes zergsurfing sorcs (as they get passive heals from all the bol/mutagen spammers) but punishes those that actually try to stray away from the zerg.

Now that makes sense.
Or not so much.

A magsorc straying away from his zerg with his 2-3 buddies to hunt me down, is still outnumbering me. And in those situations SB actually helps a lot. As a solo player, I feel im not acting unreasonable. The very few instances, where I happen to have a somewhat fair fight against a decent magsorc, are usually initiated by me signalizing very obviously that I wear SB (if I do), so that said opponent can decide by himself whether he wants to continue fighting me.

You know me, you know that I`m really thinking about fair play (hell, I didnt even use finishers most of my eso career, cuz I considered them imbalanced). But fighting magsorcs this patch is not fairplay at all (as a solo player).

Lieblingsjunge

Derra wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

With all the sorcs mindlessly running around spamming execute while zergsurfing, Iwould say Shieldbreaker is legitimate. After Homestead, a lot of people rerolled to Sorc, because the class is insanely strong. As a reaction to that, people went for Shield-Breaker, to counter the increasing number of sorcs. Can't blame them for adapting to the meta, hm?

As much as it sucks, this is what the players made it into. Zenimax doesn't have any responsibility here. It's like with procsets, people built tankier and tankier to survive the procsets, just as people will go with Shield-Breaker to battle the insanely strong magicka Sorc.

So equip a set that in no way punishes zergsurfing sorcs (as they get passive heals from all the bol/mutagen spammers) but punishes those that actually try to stray away from the zerg.

Now that makes sense.
Or not so much.

Yeh. It really sucks, but you can't blame the Players(which is my main issue with this thread. It puts all the blame on Zenimax for this, not on the players) for adjusting to the increasing number of Sorcs. As much as I hate to see good sorcs that run 1vX-ing people get spammed with shield-breaker, it's done to combat the increasing number of sorcs that runs in larger groups and tryhards.

1vX-ing players are always getting punished by the change to combat a specific threat. (E.g. killing people solo got harder 'cus people got tankier). I'm not defending it, I'm not saying it's good that it is this way. I'm just trying to explain that it makes sense why & instead of bashing ZoS for having a set like this, blame the players. I'm annoyed by the "Always blame zos for this and that" instead of blaming the players.

Proc-gankers started to use the Onslaught-ultimate to ignore a player's resistances, as they became tankier to deal with the increasing number of procgankers.

tl;dr It's sad that good 1vX-sorcs get affected by the increasing number of Shield-Breaker. But the issue are the no-fair-play players, not Zenimax itself(which this thread seem to think). I'm not justifying it, I'm simply just more interested in the "Why" people do it.

Derra

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

With all the sorcs mindlessly running around spamming execute while zergsurfing, Iwould say Shieldbreaker is legitimate. After Homestead, a lot of people rerolled to Sorc, because the class is insanely strong. As a reaction to that, people went for Shield-Breaker, to counter the increasing number of sorcs. Can't blame them for adapting to the meta, hm?

As much as it sucks, this is what the players made it into. Zenimax doesn't have any responsibility here. It's like with procsets, people built tankier and tankier to survive the procsets, just as people will go with Shield-Breaker to battle the insanely strong magicka Sorc.

So equip a set that in no way punishes zergsurfing sorcs (as they get passive heals from all the bol/mutagen spammers) but punishes those that actually try to stray away from the zerg.

Now that makes sense.
Or not so much.

A magsorc straying away from his zerg with his 2-3 buddies to hunt me down, is still outnumbering me. And in those situations SB actually helps a lot. As a solo player, I feel im not acting unreasonable. The very few instances, where I happen to have a somewhat fair fight against a decent magsorc, are usually initiated by me signalizing very obviously that I wear SB (if I do), so that said opponent can decide by himself whether he wants to continue fighting me.

You know me, you know that I`m really thinking about fair play (hell, I didnt even use finishers most of my eso career, cuz I considered them imbalanced). But fighting magsorcs this patch is not fairplay at all (as a solo player).

Magsorcs 1v1 are ironically countered by magplar ranged builds in light and magblade ranged builds in light - as both are better actual ranged casters.

Magsorcs just happen to be better open world.

What about a sorc do you think is not fairplay when not looking at Xv1 situations - apart from the second curse explosion.

White wabbit

All I can say to crying sorcs is adapt or go play another class

Mojomonkeyman

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

With all the sorcs mindlessly running around spamming execute while zergsurfing, Iwould say Shieldbreaker is legitimate. After Homestead, a lot of people rerolled to Sorc, because the class is insanely strong. As a reaction to that, people went for Shield-Breaker, to counter the increasing number of sorcs. Can't blame them for adapting to the meta, hm?

As much as it sucks, this is what the players made it into. Zenimax doesn't have any responsibility here. It's like with procsets, people built tankier and tankier to survive the procsets, just as people will go with Shield-Breaker to battle the insanely strong magicka Sorc.

So equip a set that in no way punishes zergsurfing sorcs (as they get passive heals from all the bol/mutagen spammers) but punishes those that actually try to stray away from the zerg.

Now that makes sense.
Or not so much.

A magsorc straying away from his zerg with his 2-3 buddies to hunt me down, is still outnumbering me. And in those situations SB actually helps a lot. As a solo player, I feel im not acting unreasonable. The very few instances, where I happen to have a somewhat fair fight against a decent magsorc, are usually initiated by me signalizing very obviously that I wear SB (if I do), so that said opponent can decide by himself whether he wants to continue fighting me.

You know me, you know that I`m really thinking about fair play (hell, I didnt even use finishers most of my eso career, cuz I considered them imbalanced). But fighting magsorcs this patch is not fairplay at all (as a solo player).

Magsorcs 1v1 are ironically countered by magplar ranged builds in light and magblade ranged builds in light - as both are better actual ranged casters.

Magsorcs just happen to be better open world.

What about a sorc do you think is not fairplay when not looking at Xv1 situations - apart from the second curse explosion.

I did take the time to give more detail in the post above the one you quoted.

Short version: Even a single average magsorc being present when fighting solo outnumbered reduces my effective hp permanently by about 30% if not more as long as said magsorc is alive. Combined with the absurd power of shield stacking that magsorc can decide the fight just by pressing two buttons every 5-12 sec and spending the rest of the time shield stacking.

Come on, you know all that. I am forced to make magsorc the priority target if I want to fight with all my HP, yet the power of shields doesnt allow for quick kills even on average magsorcs.

Addition: Didn`t you fall into the same trap (difference of perception) when calling magtemplars and magnbs better casters, because that is only true from the perspective of a class able to shield/ward up? From a melee stam characters perspective (mine in that case) magsorcs are head & shoulders above magtemplars and magNBs. I gave the reason for that already (unmitigable damage, except mitigation by shields/wards).

RinaldoGandolphi

Shield Breaker is antiquated and really no longer belongs in the game.

When Shield Breaker was put into the game, Damage shields still:

1. Lasted 20 seconds
2. only had 15% of their value reduced in Cyrodiil not 50%
3. didn't have their duration and values so nerfed.
4. Shattering Blows was not in the CP system like it is now

At the time Shield breaker came out, as a Mag Sorc, it was needed in the game, but the game has changed now, and Shield Breaker in its current form simply should not exist...its a set that needs to be re-visited much like many others.

Shield Breaker is an issue when your outnumbered more so then anything else. Then again, with the way things have bene changed the last 18 months, lots of things are an issue when your outnumbered these days..

Derra

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

With all the sorcs mindlessly running around spamming execute while zergsurfing, Iwould say Shieldbreaker is legitimate. After Homestead, a lot of people rerolled to Sorc, because the class is insanely strong. As a reaction to that, people went for Shield-Breaker, to counter the increasing number of sorcs. Can't blame them for adapting to the meta, hm?

As much as it sucks, this is what the players made it into. Zenimax doesn't have any responsibility here. It's like with procsets, people built tankier and tankier to survive the procsets, just as people will go with Shield-Breaker to battle the insanely strong magicka Sorc.

So equip a set that in no way punishes zergsurfing sorcs (as they get passive heals from all the bol/mutagen spammers) but punishes those that actually try to stray away from the zerg.

Now that makes sense.
Or not so much.

A magsorc straying away from his zerg with his 2-3 buddies to hunt me down, is still outnumbering me. And in those situations SB actually helps a lot. As a solo player, I feel im not acting unreasonable. The very few instances, where I happen to have a somewhat fair fight against a decent magsorc, are usually initiated by me signalizing very obviously that I wear SB (if I do), so that said opponent can decide by himself whether he wants to continue fighting me.

You know me, you know that I`m really thinking about fair play (hell, I didnt even use finishers most of my eso career, cuz I considered them imbalanced). But fighting magsorcs this patch is not fairplay at all (as a solo player).

Magsorcs 1v1 are ironically countered by magplar ranged builds in light and magblade ranged builds in light - as both are better actual ranged casters.

Magsorcs just happen to be better open world.

What about a sorc do you think is not fairplay when not looking at Xv1 situations - apart from the second curse explosion.

I did take the time to give more detail in the post above the one you quoted.

Short version: Even a single average magsorc being present when fighting solo outnumbered reduces my effective hp permanently by about 30% if not more as long as said magsorc is alive. Combined with the absurd power of shield stacking that magsorc can decide the fight just by pressing two buttons every 5-12 sec and spending the rest of the time shield stacking.

Come on, you know all that. I am forced to make magsorc the priority target if I want to fight with all my HP, yet the power of shields doesnt allow for quick kills even on average magsorcs.

Addition: Didn`t you fall into the same trap (difference of perception) when calling magtemplars and magnbs better casters, because that is only true from the perspective of a class able to shield/ward up? From a melee stam characters perspective (mine in that case) magsorcs are head & shoulders above magtemplars and magNBs. I gave the reason for that already (unmitigable damage, except mitigation by shields/wards).

But that´s exactly what i meant. Magsorc in your scenario only overperforms when outnumbering you. I was asking what about magica sorc is overperforming when not outnumbering you.
I know that magsorcs are problematic when outnumbering you. Same is true for shieldbreaker, poisons etc pp

Atleast magblades should outperform sorcs against you aswell. Sadly lightarmor setups for magblades aren´t exactly open world vaible - so you most likely don´t meet that many.
Can´t speak for templars vs melee.

Also why is curse suddenly such a huge deal - it was unmitigable for the most part of it´s existance. Fury is able to be blocked - so the only real unmitigable dmg we´re talking a sorc has IS curse.

Mojomonkeyman

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

With all the sorcs mindlessly running around spamming execute while zergsurfing, Iwould say Shieldbreaker is legitimate. After Homestead, a lot of people rerolled to Sorc, because the class is insanely strong. As a reaction to that, people went for Shield-Breaker, to counter the increasing number of sorcs. Can't blame them for adapting to the meta, hm?

As much as it sucks, this is what the players made it into. Zenimax doesn't have any responsibility here. It's like with procsets, people built tankier and tankier to survive the procsets, just as people will go with Shield-Breaker to battle the insanely strong magicka Sorc.

So equip a set that in no way punishes zergsurfing sorcs (as they get passive heals from all the bol/mutagen spammers) but punishes those that actually try to stray away from the zerg.

Now that makes sense.
Or not so much.

A magsorc straying away from his zerg with his 2-3 buddies to hunt me down, is still outnumbering me. And in those situations SB actually helps a lot. As a solo player, I feel im not acting unreasonable. The very few instances, where I happen to have a somewhat fair fight against a decent magsorc, are usually initiated by me signalizing very obviously that I wear SB (if I do), so that said opponent can decide by himself whether he wants to continue fighting me.

You know me, you know that I`m really thinking about fair play (hell, I didnt even use finishers most of my eso career, cuz I considered them imbalanced). But fighting magsorcs this patch is not fairplay at all (as a solo player).

Magsorcs 1v1 are ironically countered by magplar ranged builds in light and magblade ranged builds in light - as both are better actual ranged casters.

Magsorcs just happen to be better open world.

What about a sorc do you think is not fairplay when not looking at Xv1 situations - apart from the second curse explosion.

I did take the time to give more detail in the post above the one you quoted.

Short version: Even a single average magsorc being present when fighting solo outnumbered reduces my effective hp permanently by about 30% if not more as long as said magsorc is alive. Combined with the absurd power of shield stacking that magsorc can decide the fight just by pressing two buttons every 5-12 sec and spending the rest of the time shield stacking.

Come on, you know all that. I am forced to make magsorc the priority target if I want to fight with all my HP, yet the power of shields doesnt allow for quick kills even on average magsorcs.

Addition: Didn`t you fall into the same trap (difference of perception) when calling magtemplars and magnbs better casters, because that is only true from the perspective of a class able to shield/ward up? From a melee stam characters perspective (mine in that case) magsorcs are head & shoulders above magtemplars and magNBs. I gave the reason for that already (unmitigable damage, except mitigation by shields/wards).

But that´s exactly what i meant. Magsorc in your scenario only overperforms when outnumbering you. I was asking what about magica sorc is overperforming when not outnumbering you.
I know that magsorcs are problematic when outnumbering you. Same is true for shieldbreaker, poisons etc pp

Atleast magblades should outperform sorcs against you aswell. Sadly lightarmor setups for magblades aren´t exactly open world vaible - so you most likely don´t meet that many.
Can´t speak for templars vs melee.

Also why is curse suddenly such a huge deal - it was unmitigable for the most part of it´s existance. Fury is able to be blocked - so the only real unmitigable dmg we´re talking a sorc has IS curse.

You are taking my posts out of context. I explicitly stated that magsorcs overperform by huge margin when outnumbering their opponent, even moreso than jesus beam templars ever did. I never touched 1v1 issues, because I don`t think magsorcs are a problem 1v1. I also stated stackable damage that cannot be mitigated is part of the problem, which also implies outnumbered situations. Why would I give reasons for or against a class being too strong in scenario A, when scenario B is 90% of what I encounter and the reason for me using SB?

You cannot measure balance anymore simply by comparing 1v1 performance when we are talking about damage without counter that is stackable, because that`s just a theoretical scenario and not what actually happens ingame. But even if we did, we probably came to the same conclusion about shield breaker - not as much of a problem in 1v1, disgusting when outnumbered.

Nonetheless, wrath explosion, curse and destro ult (no sorc skill is not relevant, when its used by every sorc out there, because it is a factor in measuring the strength of setups a class can come up with) are the three main offenders which circumvent some or all forms of mitigation except shields and match or outperform SB in all possible scenarios.

You are asking the wrong questions and I am kind of irritated because in previous stages of the game a lot of other parameters where either 1) not existent or 2) not benefitting from various buffs that have been introduced.

There really is not much more to say, I could write books on how balanced magsorcs are in a 1v1 scenario, but it wouldnt change anything, because 1v1 scenarios is not what we ususally get in open world.

MagNBs are, in my opinion, the most easy opponent to fight against, the burst windup is far too predictable, infrequent and can be countered by basic defensive maneuvers. Magtemplar casters can be interrupted and their damage mitigated. I would never deny that my opinion on that is solely shaped by perception, which is based on the setup im playing.

Derra

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

With all the sorcs mindlessly running around spamming execute while zergsurfing, Iwould say Shieldbreaker is legitimate. After Homestead, a lot of people rerolled to Sorc, because the class is insanely strong. As a reaction to that, people went for Shield-Breaker, to counter the increasing number of sorcs. Can't blame them for adapting to the meta, hm?

As much as it sucks, this is what the players made it into. Zenimax doesn't have any responsibility here. It's like with procsets, people built tankier and tankier to survive the procsets, just as people will go with Shield-Breaker to battle the insanely strong magicka Sorc.

So equip a set that in no way punishes zergsurfing sorcs (as they get passive heals from all the bol/mutagen spammers) but punishes those that actually try to stray away from the zerg.

Now that makes sense.
Or not so much.

A magsorc straying away from his zerg with his 2-3 buddies to hunt me down, is still outnumbering me. And in those situations SB actually helps a lot. As a solo player, I feel im not acting unreasonable. The very few instances, where I happen to have a somewhat fair fight against a decent magsorc, are usually initiated by me signalizing very obviously that I wear SB (if I do), so that said opponent can decide by himself whether he wants to continue fighting me.

You know me, you know that I`m really thinking about fair play (hell, I didnt even use finishers most of my eso career, cuz I considered them imbalanced). But fighting magsorcs this patch is not fairplay at all (as a solo player).

Magsorcs 1v1 are ironically countered by magplar ranged builds in light and magblade ranged builds in light - as both are better actual ranged casters.

Magsorcs just happen to be better open world.

What about a sorc do you think is not fairplay when not looking at Xv1 situations - apart from the second curse explosion.

I did take the time to give more detail in the post above the one you quoted.

Short version: Even a single average magsorc being present when fighting solo outnumbered reduces my effective hp permanently by about 30% if not more as long as said magsorc is alive. Combined with the absurd power of shield stacking that magsorc can decide the fight just by pressing two buttons every 5-12 sec and spending the rest of the time shield stacking.

Come on, you know all that. I am forced to make magsorc the priority target if I want to fight with all my HP, yet the power of shields doesnt allow for quick kills even on average magsorcs.

Addition: Didn`t you fall into the same trap (difference of perception) when calling magtemplars and magnbs better casters, because that is only true from the perspective of a class able to shield/ward up? From a melee stam characters perspective (mine in that case) magsorcs are head & shoulders above magtemplars and magNBs. I gave the reason for that already (unmitigable damage, except mitigation by shields/wards).

But that´s exactly what i meant. Magsorc in your scenario only overperforms when outnumbering you. I was asking what about magica sorc is overperforming when not outnumbering you.
I know that magsorcs are problematic when outnumbering you. Same is true for shieldbreaker, poisons etc pp

Atleast magblades should outperform sorcs against you aswell. Sadly lightarmor setups for magblades aren´t exactly open world vaible - so you most likely don´t meet that many.
Can´t speak for templars vs melee.

Also why is curse suddenly such a huge deal - it was unmitigable for the most part of it´s existance. Fury is able to be blocked - so the only real unmitigable dmg we´re talking a sorc has IS curse.

You are taking my posts out of context. I explicitly stated that magsorcs overperform by huge margin when outnumbering their opponent, even moreso than jesus beam templars ever did. I never touched 1v1 issues, because I don`t think magsorcs are a problem 1v1. I also stated stackable damage that cannot be mitigated is part of the problem, which also implies outnumbered situations. Why would I give reasons for or against a class being too strong in scenario A, when scenario B is 90% of what I encounter and the reason for me using SB?

You cannot measure balance anymore simply by comparing 1v1 performance when we are talking about damage without counter that is stackable, because that`s just a theoretical scenario and not what actually happens ingame. But even if we did, we probably came to the same conclusion about shield breaker - not as much of a problem in 1v1, disgusting when outnumbered.

Nonetheless, wrath explosion, curse and destro ult (no sorc skill is not relevant, when its used by every sorc out there, because it is a factor in measuring the strength of setups a class can come up with) are the three main offenders which circumvent some or all forms of mitigation except shields and match or outperform SB in all possible scenarios.

You are asking the wrong questions and I am kind of irritated because in previous stages of the game a lot of other parameters where either 1) not existent or 2) not benefitting from various buffs that have been introduced.

There really is not much more to say, I could write books on how balanced magsorcs are in a 1v1 scenario, but it wouldnt change anything, because 1v1 scenarios is not what we ususally get in open world.

MagNBs are, in my opinion, the most easy opponent to fight against, the burst windup is far too predictable, infrequent and can be countered by basic defensive maneuvers. Magtemplar casters can be interrupted and their damage mitigated. I would never deny that my opinion on that is solely shaped by perception, which is based on the setup im playing.

The problem is Xv1 can´t be adressed independently from other parts of the game
Apart from making curse undesireable to use ofc.

No idea how you come to that conclusion about magblades honestly. I like them because they don´t need burst to kill you ._.

Mojomonkeyman

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

With all the sorcs mindlessly running around spamming execute while zergsurfing, Iwould say Shieldbreaker is legitimate. After Homestead, a lot of people rerolled to Sorc, because the class is insanely strong. As a reaction to that, people went for Shield-Breaker, to counter the increasing number of sorcs. Can't blame them for adapting to the meta, hm?

As much as it sucks, this is what the players made it into. Zenimax doesn't have any responsibility here. It's like with procsets, people built tankier and tankier to survive the procsets, just as people will go with Shield-Breaker to battle the insanely strong magicka Sorc.

So equip a set that in no way punishes zergsurfing sorcs (as they get passive heals from all the bol/mutagen spammers) but punishes those that actually try to stray away from the zerg.

Now that makes sense.
Or not so much.

A magsorc straying away from his zerg with his 2-3 buddies to hunt me down, is still outnumbering me. And in those situations SB actually helps a lot. As a solo player, I feel im not acting unreasonable. The very few instances, where I happen to have a somewhat fair fight against a decent magsorc, are usually initiated by me signalizing very obviously that I wear SB (if I do), so that said opponent can decide by himself whether he wants to continue fighting me.

You know me, you know that I`m really thinking about fair play (hell, I didnt even use finishers most of my eso career, cuz I considered them imbalanced). But fighting magsorcs this patch is not fairplay at all (as a solo player).

Magsorcs 1v1 are ironically countered by magplar ranged builds in light and magblade ranged builds in light - as both are better actual ranged casters.

Magsorcs just happen to be better open world.

What about a sorc do you think is not fairplay when not looking at Xv1 situations - apart from the second curse explosion.

I did take the time to give more detail in the post above the one you quoted.

Short version: Even a single average magsorc being present when fighting solo outnumbered reduces my effective hp permanently by about 30% if not more as long as said magsorc is alive. Combined with the absurd power of shield stacking that magsorc can decide the fight just by pressing two buttons every 5-12 sec and spending the rest of the time shield stacking.

Come on, you know all that. I am forced to make magsorc the priority target if I want to fight with all my HP, yet the power of shields doesnt allow for quick kills even on average magsorcs.

Addition: Didn`t you fall into the same trap (difference of perception) when calling magtemplars and magnbs better casters, because that is only true from the perspective of a class able to shield/ward up? From a melee stam characters perspective (mine in that case) magsorcs are head & shoulders above magtemplars and magNBs. I gave the reason for that already (unmitigable damage, except mitigation by shields/wards).

But that´s exactly what i meant. Magsorc in your scenario only overperforms when outnumbering you. I was asking what about magica sorc is overperforming when not outnumbering you.
I know that magsorcs are problematic when outnumbering you. Same is true for shieldbreaker, poisons etc pp

Atleast magblades should outperform sorcs against you aswell. Sadly lightarmor setups for magblades aren´t exactly open world vaible - so you most likely don´t meet that many.
Can´t speak for templars vs melee.

Also why is curse suddenly such a huge deal - it was unmitigable for the most part of it´s existance. Fury is able to be blocked - so the only real unmitigable dmg we´re talking a sorc has IS curse.

You are taking my posts out of context. I explicitly stated that magsorcs overperform by huge margin when outnumbering their opponent, even moreso than jesus beam templars ever did. I never touched 1v1 issues, because I don`t think magsorcs are a problem 1v1. I also stated stackable damage that cannot be mitigated is part of the problem, which also implies outnumbered situations. Why would I give reasons for or against a class being too strong in scenario A, when scenario B is 90% of what I encounter and the reason for me using SB?

You cannot measure balance anymore simply by comparing 1v1 performance when we are talking about damage without counter that is stackable, because that`s just a theoretical scenario and not what actually happens ingame. But even if we did, we probably came to the same conclusion about shield breaker - not as much of a problem in 1v1, disgusting when outnumbered.

Nonetheless, wrath explosion, curse and destro ult (no sorc skill is not relevant, when its used by every sorc out there, because it is a factor in measuring the strength of setups a class can come up with) are the three main offenders which circumvent some or all forms of mitigation except shields and match or outperform SB in all possible scenarios.

You are asking the wrong questions and I am kind of irritated because in previous stages of the game a lot of other parameters where either 1) not existent or 2) not benefitting from various buffs that have been introduced.

There really is not much more to say, I could write books on how balanced magsorcs are in a 1v1 scenario, but it wouldnt change anything, because 1v1 scenarios is not what we ususally get in open world.

MagNBs are, in my opinion, the most easy opponent to fight against, the burst windup is far too predictable, infrequent and can be countered by basic defensive maneuvers. Magtemplar casters can be interrupted and their damage mitigated. I would never deny that my opinion on that is solely shaped by perception, which is based on the setup im playing.

The problem is Xv1 can´t be adressed independantly from other parts of the game

No idea how you come to that conclusion about magblades honestly. I like them because they don´t need burst to kill you ._.

Of course we can, I already hinted how. Making curse & wrath explosion unstackable without changing anything else would fix almost all issues with magsorcs outnumbered and still leave huge burst windows open in fair settings.

Lucky28

Solariken wrote: »

Unless he is standing behind a zerg he should be a free kill for you.

players who use Shield breaker typically aren't good players. so they normal do camp behind a zerg and spam light attacks while you're trying to fight off 10 other people.

that set really is annoying.

Ragnaroek93

Please... I don't say that magsorcs aren't overperforming at the moment but they are by far not as busted as all these 0 skillcap heavy armor builds who sustain with 600 stamina regen and kill people by just facetanking and spamming their rotation.

Waffennacht

I'm curious to see how anyone could actually prove sorcs are "overperforming"

Especially when in the same breath it's said they are fine 1v1.

I can't help but think, by these definitions, when the individual making these claims is outnumbered by any class - that class is "overperforming"

Araviel2

i think its fun times
most of the time its total scrubs that are using shieldbreaker, and they become even more scrubby whit it.

yesterday i brought back my old non shield using bat spamming aoe sorc from 1.0 again. its almost back to its old full glory since we can roll dodge now (amberplasm )

Mojomonkeyman

Waffennacht wrote: »

I'm curious to see how anyone could actually prove sorcs are "overperforming"

Especially when in the same breath it's said they are fine 1v1.

I can't help but think, by these definitions, when the individual making these claims is outnumbered by any class - that class is "overperforming"

Is the concept of stackable damage without counter being unhealthy for any kind of skillful play really beyond you? This community is something special, indeed.

Minalan

Nightblades complaining again because PVP isn't one button easy mode anymore?

Derra

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

With all the sorcs mindlessly running around spamming execute while zergsurfing, Iwould say Shieldbreaker is legitimate. After Homestead, a lot of people rerolled to Sorc, because the class is insanely strong. As a reaction to that, people went for Shield-Breaker, to counter the increasing number of sorcs. Can't blame them for adapting to the meta, hm?

As much as it sucks, this is what the players made it into. Zenimax doesn't have any responsibility here. It's like with procsets, people built tankier and tankier to survive the procsets, just as people will go with Shield-Breaker to battle the insanely strong magicka Sorc.

So equip a set that in no way punishes zergsurfing sorcs (as they get passive heals from all the bol/mutagen spammers) but punishes those that actually try to stray away from the zerg.

Now that makes sense.
Or not so much.

A magsorc straying away from his zerg with his 2-3 buddies to hunt me down, is still outnumbering me. And in those situations SB actually helps a lot. As a solo player, I feel im not acting unreasonable. The very few instances, where I happen to have a somewhat fair fight against a decent magsorc, are usually initiated by me signalizing very obviously that I wear SB (if I do), so that said opponent can decide by himself whether he wants to continue fighting me.

You know me, you know that I`m really thinking about fair play (hell, I didnt even use finishers most of my eso career, cuz I considered them imbalanced). But fighting magsorcs this patch is not fairplay at all (as a solo player).

Magsorcs 1v1 are ironically countered by magplar ranged builds in light and magblade ranged builds in light - as both are better actual ranged casters.

Magsorcs just happen to be better open world.

What about a sorc do you think is not fairplay when not looking at Xv1 situations - apart from the second curse explosion.

I did take the time to give more detail in the post above the one you quoted.

Short version: Even a single average magsorc being present when fighting solo outnumbered reduces my effective hp permanently by about 30% if not more as long as said magsorc is alive. Combined with the absurd power of shield stacking that magsorc can decide the fight just by pressing two buttons every 5-12 sec and spending the rest of the time shield stacking.

Come on, you know all that. I am forced to make magsorc the priority target if I want to fight with all my HP, yet the power of shields doesnt allow for quick kills even on average magsorcs.

Addition: Didn`t you fall into the same trap (difference of perception) when calling magtemplars and magnbs better casters, because that is only true from the perspective of a class able to shield/ward up? From a melee stam characters perspective (mine in that case) magsorcs are head & shoulders above magtemplars and magNBs. I gave the reason for that already (unmitigable damage, except mitigation by shields/wards).

But that´s exactly what i meant. Magsorc in your scenario only overperforms when outnumbering you. I was asking what about magica sorc is overperforming when not outnumbering you.
I know that magsorcs are problematic when outnumbering you. Same is true for shieldbreaker, poisons etc pp

Atleast magblades should outperform sorcs against you aswell. Sadly lightarmor setups for magblades aren´t exactly open world vaible - so you most likely don´t meet that many.
Can´t speak for templars vs melee.

Also why is curse suddenly such a huge deal - it was unmitigable for the most part of it´s existance. Fury is able to be blocked - so the only real unmitigable dmg we´re talking a sorc has IS curse.

You are taking my posts out of context. I explicitly stated that magsorcs overperform by huge margin when outnumbering their opponent, even moreso than jesus beam templars ever did. I never touched 1v1 issues, because I don`t think magsorcs are a problem 1v1. I also stated stackable damage that cannot be mitigated is part of the problem, which also implies outnumbered situations. Why would I give reasons for or against a class being too strong in scenario A, when scenario B is 90% of what I encounter and the reason for me using SB?

You cannot measure balance anymore simply by comparing 1v1 performance when we are talking about damage without counter that is stackable, because that`s just a theoretical scenario and not what actually happens ingame. But even if we did, we probably came to the same conclusion about shield breaker - not as much of a problem in 1v1, disgusting when outnumbered.

Nonetheless, wrath explosion, curse and destro ult (no sorc skill is not relevant, when its used by every sorc out there, because it is a factor in measuring the strength of setups a class can come up with) are the three main offenders which circumvent some or all forms of mitigation except shields and match or outperform SB in all possible scenarios.

You are asking the wrong questions and I am kind of irritated because in previous stages of the game a lot of other parameters where either 1) not existent or 2) not benefitting from various buffs that have been introduced.

There really is not much more to say, I could write books on how balanced magsorcs are in a 1v1 scenario, but it wouldnt change anything, because 1v1 scenarios is not what we ususally get in open world.

MagNBs are, in my opinion, the most easy opponent to fight against, the burst windup is far too predictable, infrequent and can be countered by basic defensive maneuvers. Magtemplar casters can be interrupted and their damage mitigated. I would never deny that my opinion on that is solely shaped by perception, which is based on the setup im playing.

The problem is Xv1 can´t be adressed independantly from other parts of the game

No idea how you come to that conclusion about magblades honestly. I like them because they don´t need burst to kill you ._.

Of course we can, I already hinted how. Making curse & wrath explosion unstackable without changing anything else would fix almost all issues with magsorcs outnumbered and still leave huge burst windows open in fair settings.

And you made any 2 sorc setup for arenas undesireable with that (good luck when you get 3 sorcs in random queue).
The problem is curse is absolutely vital to the sorc rotation. I´d say it´s more important than fragments.

The problem here being really that the unwanted skill is part of the classes core rotation.

Personally i really only think the 2nd explosion is problematic - because every so so average sorc would forget to apply curse regularly before that change.
As for endless fury. Why is that problematic? It used to be stackable and unblockable back in the days. Now you can atleast block it.

Father_X_Zombie

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Surge's heal is reduced by battlespirit.

Shield breaker is not suppose to proc per tick

Streak is bugged.

You can tell most posters in this thread have PTSD from those naughty magicka builds that touched them in their naughty parts.

Isn't shield breaker reduced by battle spirit also?

How do you know shield breaker is not supposed to proc per ticket? Dual wield heavy attacks proc it twice and I think that is intended.

This comment about Mag played touching naughty parts. Ya i may agree that mag players stacking shields is OP and shield breaker a good counter.

Its not affected by battle spirit

usmcjdking

Oblivion damage is pure damage and cannot be mitigated by any means, to include battle spirit. Oblivion damage has and should always work this way.

And just because, the idea that shields still prevent critical hits is absolutely mindboggling. Being able to shield through bleeds also makes absolutely no sense.

DHale

In celebration I bought my new shield breaker set. Had a lot of fun last night. Glad there are only a couple good sorcs on EP.

Minalan

usmcjdking wrote: »

Oblivion damage is pure damage and cannot be mitigated by any means, to include battle spirit. Oblivion damage has and should always work this way.

And just because, the idea that shields still prevent critical hits is absolutely mindboggling. Being able to shield through bleeds also makes absolutely no sense.

Shields have no armor resists, allowing them to be crit would strip them off in one hit.

Funny how I don't see as many forum complaints about 35K resist heavy armor builds with 35K health, decent block cost, troll king, major vitality, and excellent damage.

Between the resists and holding down one button, you take no damage.
You have 15K more health.
You have far better resists.
Your self heals outpace the damage.
You have lower ability costs, every single stamina weapon line has a 20% cost reduction passive.
You can block far longer than I can shield.
You hit hard despite what people like to admit on a tanky build.

Don't get me started on what a magplar can do. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that shields are strong. So is everyone else. It's competitive.

Ahzek

Waffennacht wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Sorcs crying about shieldbreaker but are completly fine with uncloakable, unblockable and undodgeable curses.

And with uncloakable I'm talking about the part where it breaks your cloak on cast, not the explosion x)

Lightningstaff + shieldbreaker + mag poisons feels so good vs some FOTM skeleton sorcs. Specially in combination with cripple, fear and teleport shade on my magblade.

Not talking about the good sorcs who always mained the class.

I'm curious as to how someone casts Curse on a cloaked NB? Is there some sort of bug?

Look, the arguments for or against shield breaker existing happened back when it dropped, it's a moot point. However I do not believe it's suppose to deal the damage per tick of a heavy attack staff attack. It's not functioning as I believe it should.

I believe it shouldn't based on my belief that a single heavy attack does not count as x3 light attacks for Merciless Resolve (afaik)

Doesnt merciless resolve

usmcjdking wrote: »

Oblivion damage is pure damage and cannot be mitigated by any means, to include battle spirit. Oblivion damage has and should always work this way.

And just because, the idea that shields still prevent critical hits is absolutely mindboggling. Being able to shield through bleeds also makes absolutely no sense.

How can you crit something that doesnt have a weakpoint ?

Regardless, at this point shield mechanics are what the devs think is best balance wise for the game and not what would be the most logical.

Hurika

Ahzek wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Sorcs crying about shieldbreaker but are completly fine with uncloakable, unblockable and undodgeable curses.

And with uncloakable I'm talking about the part where it breaks your cloak on cast, not the explosion x)

Lightningstaff + shieldbreaker + mag poisons feels so good vs some FOTM skeleton sorcs. Specially in combination with cripple, fear and teleport shade on my magblade.

Not talking about the good sorcs who always mained the class.

I'm curious as to how someone casts Curse on a cloaked NB? Is there some sort of bug?

Look, the arguments for or against shield breaker existing happened back when it dropped, it's a moot point. However I do not believe it's suppose to deal the damage per tick of a heavy attack staff attack. It's not functioning as I believe it should.

I believe it shouldn't based on my belief that a single heavy attack does not count as x3 light attacks for Merciless Resolve (afaik)

Doesnt merciless resolve

usmcjdking wrote: »

Oblivion damage is pure damage and cannot be mitigated by any means, to include battle spirit. Oblivion damage has and should always work this way.

And just because, the idea that shields still prevent critical hits is absolutely mindboggling. Being able to shield through bleeds also makes absolutely no sense.

How can you crit something that doesnt have a weakpoint ?

Regardless, at this point shield mechanics are what the devs think is best balance wise for the game and not what would be the most logical.

By that logic shouldn't it also absorb all outgoing damage? It's a bubble not a one way mirror.

Killset

Minalan wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Oblivion damage is pure damage and cannot be mitigated by any means, to include battle spirit. Oblivion damage has and should always work this way.

And just because, the idea that shields still prevent critical hits is absolutely mindboggling. Being able to shield through bleeds also makes absolutely no sense.

Shields have no armor resists, allowing them to be crit would strip them off in one hit.

Funny how I don't see as many forum complaints about 35K resist heavy armor builds with 35K health, decent block cost, troll king, major vitality, and excellent damage.

Between the resists and holding down one button, you take no damage.
You have 15K more health.
You have far better resists.
Your self heals outpace the damage.
You have lower ability costs, every single stamina weapon line has a 20% cost reduction passive.
You can block far longer than I can shield.
You hit hard despite what people like to admit on a tanky build.

Don't get me started on what a magplar can do. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that shields are strong. So is everyone else. It's competitive.

That build with 35k health and Troll King is never going to kill a Shield Stacked Sorc that is even mediocre. People don't complain about those builds because those builds do not kill people. People complain about Mag Sorcs because they have every bit of the Tankiness you just described along with the ability to deal stupid amounts of damage thrown in on top of it all.

PactMender

shield breaker seems like a waste now unlike last summer and before. feels useless

Sharee

A storm in a teapot, really. Just think about it. Using shieldbreaker in the manner depicted in the OP, you are either

1, a stamina build who is using a lightning/resto staff
2, a magicka build who is using a 5-piece set with max stam, stam regen, and weapon damage.

Basically, you will be severely gimping yourself against anything that is not a shieldstacking sorc. Which is why you almost never see this setup used with any regularity in cyrodiil.

The fact this is even a thread topic speaks volumes about how used to their untouchability sorcs are(OMG my shields dont work once in a blue moon, nerf now!).
If anything, we need more ways to effectively deal with shieldstacking which do not require using obscure setups.