Huge Change to NIghtblades Cloak Ability

PrinceRyzen

Open to Discuss:

Cloak when activated can no longer be" deactivated." When taking AOE damage while cloaked the NBs red tint can now be visible to the attacking enemy the same way it is to an ally. But the ability is still active. Once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they are no longer visible to enemies if the ability is still active.

For Example: if a nightblade is standing on an enemies caltrops and activates cloak, the enemy sees the nightblade change to the color red. They're still able to target and kill them just as they can now.

This change will enable Nightblades the ability to cast cloak once and not be required to repeat cast an ability they've already spent resources on. Aside from that counter play remains largely the same.



Simple really.

Solariken

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

catalyst10e

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

ascan7

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Funny thing is, shields durations last more than the double of cloak's duration

catalyst10e

ascan7 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Funny thing is, shields durations last more than the double of cloak's duration

So we agree then, remove the duration on both

lolo_01b16_ESO

Apart from the question if this would be changing balance in a bad way or not, how exactly should that work?
In what time frame should the game decide weather you're still getting hit by aoe damage or not? There are aoe dots that tick every 2 sec. Does that mean when using cloak, I would have to not get hit for 2 sec before I actually become invisable? Or would I just light up for a split second when the dot ticks and then vanish untill then next tick hits me?

PrinceRyzen

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

PrinceRyzen

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Apart from the question if this would be changing balance in a bad way or not, how exactly should that work?
In what time frame should the game decide weather you're still getting hit by aoe damage or not? There are aoe dots that tick every 2 sec. Does that mean when using cloak, I would have to not get hit for 2 sec before I actually become invisable? Or would I just light up for a split second when the dot ticks and then vanish untill then next tick hits me?

When the Nightblade is in the range of the AOE he is visible through cloak. Regardless of tick count. Only when outside of the AOEs range can the nightblade become invisible.

For comparison, if you currently stand inside caltrops and repeatedly cast cloak, it will fail and waste resources until you're outside of its damage range. The moment you're outside of it you can cast cloak and that will be the exact same moment it would work with the change.

The main difference is when you cast cloak the ability lasts for three seconds. If you're in the AOE for the first second you're still visible. If you immediately then get out of range of that AOE you then have 2 seconds lef of invisibility.

Vizier

He didn't say "toggle" cloak. It lasts the same as it does now. He's just saying that nothing brings you out of it while active from a cast and the only indicator might be the red tinge if taking some kind of AOE damage. That's interesting.

As is, cloak is so flipping unreliable for the cost. It's the saddest signature skill of all the classes.

Derra

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

PrinceRyzen

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

Mayrael

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Open to Discuss:

Cloak when activated can no longer be" deactivated." When taking AOE damage while cloaked the NBs red tint can now be visible to the attacking enemy the same way it is to an ally. But the ability is still active. Once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they are no longer visible to enemies if the ability is still active.

For Example: if a nightblade is standing on an enemies caltrops and activates cloak, the enemy sees the nightblade change to the color red. They're still able to target and kill them just as they can now.

This change will enable Nightblades the ability to cast cloak once and not be required to repeat cast an ability they've already spent resources on. Aside from that counter play remains largely the same.



Simple really.

Personaly I think its one of the most balanced ways to fix the cloak. Its realy fresh and sound rly good to me. NB still needs to cast cloak each 3s to stay invisible, but cloak doesnt get broken. No purge or other ideas how to make cloak OP. I like it a lot.

Mayrael

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

catalyst10e

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Xvorg

Being honest, when cloak was nerfed almost nobody used cloak counters. (Those were the WB spamming times)

So the nerf came with the use of those counters by the community, and that's why cloak users feel that they were nerfed twice.

With the current state of the game, I'd go back to the purge but only up to 2 effects...

Solariken

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

Ah, my bad. I do like the suggestion though, it allows cloak to function reliably while also allowing the same counterplay. I also like the suggestion above for 1s of pseudo reveal after taking AoE damage.

SodanTok

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Imagine if you used streak on sorc and it didnt move you as it should. Thats how cloak feels half the time. Also, fix streak.

NightbladeMechanics

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

SodanTok

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

PrinceRyzen

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

PrinceRyzen

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Open to Discuss:

Cloak when activated can no longer be" deactivated." When taking AOE damage while cloaked the NBs red tint can now be visible to the attacking enemy the same way it is to an ally. But the ability is still active. Once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they are no longer visible to enemies if the ability is still active.

For Example: if a nightblade is standing on an enemies caltrops and activates cloak, the enemy sees the nightblade change to the color red. They're still able to target and kill them just as they can now.

This change will enable Nightblades the ability to cast cloak once and not be required to repeat cast an ability they've already spent resources on. Aside from that counter play remains largely the same.



Simple really.

Personaly I think its one of the most balanced ways to fix the cloak. Its realy fresh and sound rly good to me. NB still needs to cast cloak each 3s to stay invisible, but cloak doesnt get broken. No purge or other ideas how to make cloak OP. I like it a lot.

Thanks. I do hope ZOS takes it into consideration.

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

Agreed. Plus a lot of AOEs have a longer duration than cloak.

catalyst10e

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Lokey0024

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

And while shields are active they drain magika. I like this idea. Or would like it if i wanted to drown in tears of every sorc.

arkansas_ESO

I'd be happy if they'd just make the Dark Cloak morph a class version of Mist Form: caster gets reduced damage taken, gets immunity to snares, and gets Major Expedition for the duration of the ability, but also can't regenerate stamina or magicka or be healed while in 'Cloak Form'.


I'd also love for them to rework the Master Assassin passive to work outside of stealth, ex. changing it from 10% increase to spell and weapon damage while in stealth/invisibility to a 8% increase to weapon and spell damage at all times.

SodanTok

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.

technohic

Xvorg wrote: »

Being honest, when cloak was nerfed almost nobody used cloak counters. (Those were the WB spamming times)

So the nerf came with the use of those counters by the community, and that's why cloak users feel that they were nerfed twice.

With the current state of the game, I'd go back to the purge but only up to 2 effects...

I am with you on this one.

catalyst10e

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.

my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;

OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)

This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)

The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...

What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.

t3hdubzy

I think cloak should instantly remove you from combat and put you into stealth. For stamina users it should use stamina and from magika users it should drain magika.

While in stealth regen of health should be increased based on health missing.

This solves for no self heals as well.

Additionally nightblades hit from aoe while in stealth should take 200% additoonaly damage from the initial hit.

thankyourat

Cloak really doesn't need a lot of crazy changes. Just give it back the purge and most nightblade problems will be solved

SodanTok

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.

my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;

OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)

This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)

The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...

What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.

Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.

Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.

Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.

PrinceRyzen

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Nothing you're saying in this post has anything to do with the suggested change to cloak. You're jumping from zergs, to bombs, to AOE caps, to why shields were nerfed and literally not one point regarding what has been suggested.

I've made it clear multiple times now that if a NB is on caltrops they are visible. For the second time, I've said specifically that I gave no opinion on whether a NB is visible to zergs after a single person has revealed them.

Please stay on topic

The suggestion is cloak loses invisibility when taking damage that would other wise break it. But the ability stays active for 3 seconds. If the nightblade gets out of range of the damage within that 3 second timeframe, they become invisible for the remaining duration.