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[IN PROGRESS] PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Huge Change to NIghtblades Cloak Ability
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catalyst10e✭✭✭✭sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »NightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.
Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.
Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?
The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.
What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?
They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?
The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.
1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.
What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.
This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.
Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.
This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?
Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.
And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.
Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.
You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?
Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.
When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?
2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.
See above in reference to my shield comment.
Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).
Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.
While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.
I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.
Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.
my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;
OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)
This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)
The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...
What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.
Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.
Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.
Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.
I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....
You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."
Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments."Why settle for just stabbing your foes when you can roast them alive in a gout of arcane fire?"
[| DC Breton Sorcerer || NA PS4 || PSN: Catalyst10e |]
[| DC Dunmer Dragon Knight |]0 -
PrinceRyzen✭✭✭catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »NightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.
Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.
Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?
The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.
What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?
They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?
The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.
1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.
What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.
This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.
Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.
This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?
Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.
And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.
Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.
You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?
Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.
When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?
2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.
See above in reference to my shield comment.
Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).
Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.
While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.
I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.
Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.
my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;
OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)
This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)
The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...
What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.
Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.
Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.
Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.
I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....
You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."
Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.
Since you said your responses were aimed at the OP, I feel compelled to be honest with you.
Looking at the examples you've based your claims of unfair on its clear that you aren't well versed on how cloak works. You're speaking from the perspective of a sorc who hasn't spent enough time playing as a NB and using poor technique to win fights and now you're campaigning to keep a class from being fixed/improved.
You said it would be unfair cuz NB would be able to dodge roll out of caltrops and remain in stealth. When Dodge roll itself breaks stealth.
You're saying nightblades would be over buffed because they only have to cast cloak once every 3 seconds while you have to waste resources spamming, in your example, liquid lightning( a 10 sec ability). Out of all the options to counter cloak you base your view on that?
In your last post you began by saying you have no problem with cloak in its current state. Yet in your final statement you say reliability IS important. Huge contradiction. No offense but IMO it seems your goal isn't balance. You're working to keep cloak broken so you can have an advantage.
Funny thing is, with this change, counter play against nightblades would be exactly the same.Edited by PrinceRyzen on 11 March 2017 03:370 -
phillyproduct✭✭✭
So now stam blades have 2 slot another magic move so this magic move will work and if you heavy with a resto i'll get pulled out immediately and have blown all my magicNightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
CP-750 orc nighblade ebonheart NA
Dark elf sorc ebonheart
Orc templar
Dark elf Dragon knight
Redguard warden
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SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »NightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.
Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.
Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?
The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.
What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?
They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?
The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.
1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.
What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.
This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.
Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.
This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?
Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.
And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.
Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.
You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?
Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.
When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?
2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.
See above in reference to my shield comment.
Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).
Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.
While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.
I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.
Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.
my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;
OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)
This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)
The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...
What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.
Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.
Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.
Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.
I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....
You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."
Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.
Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.
For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.2 -
rimmidimdim✭✭✭Cloak is only for setting up an initial attack. That is all. Completely useless as a defense skill. I feel the NB needs cloak as the opposite. NB is Way OP on initial attack, and way weak otherwise( however you can build NB tanks). Let's fix this. It could stop people complaining about NB gankers and stop NB complaining about broken cloak( which it is).
Install the OP's idea. I like it. I think it's great. Then also make cloak only castable while in combat. There. Cloak is defensive skill and not gank skill. Ty. Cheers1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have done some ganking on a stamplar. Cloak does help escape when I have done the same on my NB. It's not automatic but outside of being a vampire at night on the templar; it certainly helps disappear quicker when crouching around LOS.
Getting a little speed boost from it would help. A stam morph would be cool. Maybe minor evasion or something. Just QOL stuff but I just don't see the OP suggestion helping. If I am hit by something taking me out for 1 second if I get right out of it is still going to mean they drop the same AOE right where they saw me head again. Its the same as spamming cloak now where its not going to help me unless I manage to get LOS, it just will let me get killed with more magicka left.0 -
PrinceRyzen✭✭✭rimmidimdim wrote: »Cloak is only for setting up an initial attack. That is all. Completely useless as a defense skill. I feel the NB needs cloak as the opposite. NB is Way OP on initial attack, and way weak otherwise( however you can build NB tanks). Let's fix this. It could stop people complaining about NB gankers and stop NB complaining about broken cloak( which it is).
Install the OP's idea. I like it. I think it's great. Then also make cloak only castable while in combat. There. Cloak is defensive skill and not gank skill. Ty. Cheers
I appreciate the support. And do agree its currently rough as a defensive skill.
My overall hope is for balance between all classes. The reason I can't get behind cloak only being used in combat is because other classes can use their skills outside of combat. Its equally important for all.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭phillyproduct wrote: »
So now stam blades have 2 slot another magic move so this magic move will work and if you heavy with a resto i'll get pulled out immediately and have blown all my magicNightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
Put siph attacks and mark target in the equation too.
I don't understand how people that has never played a stamblade makes suggeston on how to improve your playing styleSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Imagine if you used streak on sorc and it didnt move you as it should. Thats how cloak feels half the time. Also, fix streak.
Agreed, I played neverwinter and The TrickerRougue class ( NB equivalent ) has the same machanics as what the OP describes.Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
zuto40✭✭✭✭✭Just make it actually work and reliable and add a purge back, that's all we need with cloak, we don't need a defensive skill at all, our class is unique in the fact that our defense is our offense, buff cloak and make incap and soul harvest undodgeable and we'll be fine, the most common flaw I see that causes people to call for buffs are people trying to do something we shouldn't be able to do like tank a zerg and have op heals, nightblades are assassins, it's in our skill lines, assassins kill quickly they don't tank a zerg and they don't heal like an actual healer, we need buffs for sure but we don't need manyStamblade- Legate
Tank/Heals Templar- Sergeant
Magic DK- Corporal
Stam DK- Sergeant
Stamplar- Corporal
YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy8uqORxhlrMh8oz2230s9g2 -
catalyst10e✭✭✭✭sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »NightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.
Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.
Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?
The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.
What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?
They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?
The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.
1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.
What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.
This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.
Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.
This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?
Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.
And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.
Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.
You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?
Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.
When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?
2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.
See above in reference to my shield comment.
Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).
Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.
While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.
I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.
Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.
my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;
OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)
This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)
The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...
What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.
Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.
Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.
Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.
I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....
You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."
Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.
Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.
For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.
What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.
You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.
I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.
I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.
So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?
So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways."Why settle for just stabbing your foes when you can roast them alive in a gout of arcane fire?"
[| DC Breton Sorcerer || NA PS4 || PSN: Catalyst10e |]
[| DC Dunmer Dragon Knight |]0 -
PrinceRyzen✭✭✭catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »NightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.
Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.
Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?
The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.
What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?
They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?
The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.
1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.
What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.
This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.
Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.
This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?
Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.
And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.
Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.
You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?
Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.
When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?
2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.
See above in reference to my shield comment.
Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).
Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.
While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.
I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.
Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.
my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;
OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)
This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)
The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...
What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.
Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.
Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.
Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.
I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....
You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."
Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.
Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.
For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.
What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.
You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.
I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.
I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.
So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?
So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.
You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)
Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.
Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.
And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)
Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.Edited by PrinceRyzen on 12 March 2017 07:411 -
catalyst10e✭✭✭✭PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »NightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.
Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.
Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?
The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.
What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?
They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?
The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.
1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.
What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.
This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.
Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.
This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?
Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.
And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.
Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.
You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?
Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.
When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?
2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.
See above in reference to my shield comment.
Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).
Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.
While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.
I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.
Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.
my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;
OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)
This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)
The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...
What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.
Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.
Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.
Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.
I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....
You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."
Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.
Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.
For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.
What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.
You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.
I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.
I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.
So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?
So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.
You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)
Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.
Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.
And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)
Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.
You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.
It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.
Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have."Why settle for just stabbing your foes when you can roast them alive in a gout of arcane fire?"
[| DC Breton Sorcerer || NA PS4 || PSN: Catalyst10e |]
[| DC Dunmer Dragon Knight |]0 -
PrinceRyzen✭✭✭catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »NightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.
Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.
Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?
The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.
What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?
They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?
The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.
1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.
What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.
This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.
Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.
This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?
Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.
And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.
Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.
You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?
Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.
When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?
2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.
See above in reference to my shield comment.
Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).
Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.
While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.
I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.
Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.
my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;
OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)
This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)
The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...
What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.
Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.
Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.
Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.
I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....
You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."
Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.
Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.
For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.
What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.
You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.
I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.
I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.
So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?
So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.
You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)
Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.
Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.
And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)
Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.
You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.
It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.
Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.
You start with:
"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.
Then you follow up with:
"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."
What other OP were you referring to if not me?
And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.
Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.0 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭@PrinceRyzen
Your suggestion is a bandaid fix for the unreliability of cloak, and a potentially op one at that.
While it makes sense that mentioned mechanic exists in other games, ESO's spammable nature cannot support the partial reveal on hit in invis. Other games have a cd for a invisible ability, which means that it breaking on aoe would be a rather large detriment for that class. The fact that one can recast cloak immediately after leaving a pbaoe is enough.
Another reason your 1 sec partial reveal would be unbalanced is 1.1 ish second gcd on abilities. The nb in question would still remain untouched unless stuck in a large aoe.
I believe that your suggestion would not be necessary if cloak was reliable. You cast it, and it only breaks on being hit by an aoe. Sadly, it does not work as intended due to being broken by non aoe skills. The functional skill is already very strong, essentially a magicka dodge roll that comes with invisibility and dot suppression for 3 seconds. Keeping all of those traits and removing the hard counter of aoe tilts the scales too far toward nb.
Look at powerful defensive class mechanics (in a perfect, nonbuggy world.
Sorc Shields - basically extra health with no resists and cannot be crit. Only counters crit damage, is broken by all damage and ignored by shield breaker.
DK Wings - counters range attacks for 4 hits . Counters range and useless against melee
Templar Purge and Heals - removal of negative effects to allow healing to be better. Universal "defense" and countered by burst damage and healing debuffs
NB cloak - force incoming attacks to miss and remain untargeteable and invisible for 3 seconds while suppressing dots. Canceled by aoe hit, magelight/camo hunter, and detect pots.
The more powerful the defensive mechanic, the more counters it has. Specifically wings ignoring all range attacks and being useless against melee, and cloak being broken only by aoe and specific spells and pots. Cloak is very powerful IF IT ISN'T BUGGED and therefore needs it's more vast and specific counters.
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭PrinceRyzen wrote: »Open to Discuss:
Cloak when activated can no longer be" deactivated." When taking AOE damage while cloaked the NBs red tint can now be visible to the attacking enemy the same way it is to an ally. But the ability is still active. Once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they are no longer visible to enemies if the ability is still active.
For Example: if a nightblade is standing on an enemies caltrops and activates cloak, the enemy sees the nightblade change to the color red. They're still able to target and kill them just as they can now.
This change will enable Nightblades the ability to cast cloak once and not be required to repeat cast an ability they've already spent resources on. Aside from that counter play remains largely the same.
Simple really.
I'll leave this here, so everyone can see it.
And if you STILL don't understand the suggestion:
1- Cloak is unbreakable, but you will still receive dmg from AoE
2- When you get AoE DMG, you become visible and targeteable for single target skills, but you don't have to recast cloak again
3- Skills especifically designed to break stealth (Magelight, revealing flare, Expert Hunter) should break coak, but the skill shouldn't have a chance to be recasted.
In simle words, the suggestion goes to a smarter management of magicka. I don't see any problem with that.
Anyway, IMHO I'd just roll back to the purges, but limited to 2. No mora than that. (Saddly, that will leave Shdowy disguise as the crappy version of cloak)Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
PrinceRyzen✭✭✭BlackMadara wrote: »@PrinceRyzen
Your suggestion is a bandaid fix for the unreliability of cloak, and a potentially op one at that.
While it makes sense that mentioned mechanic exists in other games, ESO's spammable nature cannot support the partial reveal on hit in invis. Other games have a cd for a invisible ability, which means that it breaking on aoe would be a rather large detriment for that class. The fact that one can recast cloak immediately after leaving a pbaoe is enough.
Another reason your 1 sec partial reveal would be unbalanced is 1.1 ish second gcd on abilities. The nb in question would still remain untouched unless stuck in a large aoe.
I believe that your suggestion would not be necessary if cloak was reliable. You cast it, and it only breaks on being hit by an aoe. Sadly, it does not work as intended due to being broken by non aoe skills. The functional skill is already very strong, essentially a magicka dodge roll that comes with invisibility and dot suppression for 3 seconds. Keeping all of those traits and removing the hard counter of aoe tilts the scales too far toward nb.
Look at powerful defensive class mechanics (in a perfect, nonbuggy world.
Sorc Shields - basically extra health with no resists and cannot be crit. Only counters crit damage, is broken by all damage and ignored by shield breaker.
DK Wings - counters range attacks for 4 hits . Counters range and useless against melee
Templar Purge and Heals - removal of negative effects to allow healing to be better. Universal "defense" and countered by burst damage and healing debuffs
NB cloak - force incoming attacks to miss and remain untargeteable and invisible for 3 seconds while suppressing dots. Canceled by aoe hit, magelight/camo hunter, and detect pots.
The more powerful the defensive mechanic, the more counters it has. Specifically wings ignoring all range attacks and being useless against melee, and cloak being broken only by aoe and specific spells and pots. Cloak is very powerful IF IT ISN'T BUGGED and therefore needs it's more vast and specific counters.
You've confused my suggestion with someone else. I never suggested cloak having a partial 1 second reveal.
The original suggestion for ex: if a nb is in an AOE, they are visible to the enemy. Period. Only when the nb is out of range of the AOE can the NB become invis. And that is at the exact same time they can currently. Exact same counter play.
Someone did suggest cloak having a 1 sec reveal but it was completely separate from what's suggested in the OP. You're response is tailored for them.
(Btw, a red tint would simply be to indicate to the enemy that the NB is attempting to cloak)
For the sake of discussion tho, when you're speaking of counters to shields, reflect and healing in comparison to cloak. There's no real comparison. Cloak when countered doesn't exist. Shields absorb a specified amount of damage, heals debuffed still heal and reflect still reflects. NB is they only class that can have full resources and have no access to their defense. Even with SB shields still protect from everyone else. Cloak being broke allows all enemies to unleash 100% of their offense on NBs.
Cloak having so many counters is one thing. Unteliabity take sit over the top. The change is necessary without effecting balance. Sensible really
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catalyst10e✭✭✭✭PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »NightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.
Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.
Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?
The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.
What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?
They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?
The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.
1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.
What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.
This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.
Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.
This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?
Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.
And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.
Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.
You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?
Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.
When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?
2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.
See above in reference to my shield comment.
Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).
Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.
While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.
I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.
Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.
my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;
OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)
This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)
The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...
What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.
Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.
Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.
Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.
I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....
You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."
Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.
Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.
For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.
What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.
You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.
I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.
I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.
So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?
So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.
You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)
Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.
Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.
And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)
Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.
You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.
It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.
Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.
You start with:
"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.
Then you follow up with:
"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."
What other OP were you referring to if not me?
And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.
Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.
Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.
semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?
That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy."Why settle for just stabbing your foes when you can roast them alive in a gout of arcane fire?"
[| DC Breton Sorcerer || NA PS4 || PSN: Catalyst10e |]
[| DC Dunmer Dragon Knight |]0 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭PrinceRyzen wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »@PrinceRyzen
Your suggestion is a bandaid fix for the unreliability of cloak, and a potentially op one at that.
While it makes sense that mentioned mechanic exists in other games, ESO's spammable nature cannot support the partial reveal on hit in invis. Other games have a cd for a invisible ability, which means that it breaking on aoe would be a rather large detriment for that class. The fact that one can recast cloak immediately after leaving a pbaoe is enough.
Another reason your 1 sec partial reveal would be unbalanced is 1.1 ish second gcd on abilities. The nb in question would still remain untouched unless stuck in a large aoe.
I believe that your suggestion would not be necessary if cloak was reliable. You cast it, and it only breaks on being hit by an aoe. Sadly, it does not work as intended due to being broken by non aoe skills. The functional skill is already very strong, essentially a magicka dodge roll that comes with invisibility and dot suppression for 3 seconds. Keeping all of those traits and removing the hard counter of aoe tilts the scales too far toward nb.
Look at powerful defensive class mechanics (in a perfect, nonbuggy world.
Sorc Shields - basically extra health with no resists and cannot be crit. Only counters crit damage, is broken by all damage and ignored by shield breaker.
DK Wings - counters range attacks for 4 hits . Counters range and useless against melee
Templar Purge and Heals - removal of negative effects to allow healing to be better. Universal "defense" and countered by burst damage and healing debuffs
NB cloak - force incoming attacks to miss and remain untargeteable and invisible for 3 seconds while suppressing dots. Canceled by aoe hit, magelight/camo hunter, and detect pots.
The more powerful the defensive mechanic, the more counters it has. Specifically wings ignoring all range attacks and being useless against melee, and cloak being broken only by aoe and specific spells and pots. Cloak is very powerful IF IT ISN'T BUGGED and therefore needs it's more vast and specific counters.
You've confused my suggestion with someone else. I never suggested cloak having a partial 1 second reveal.
The original suggestion for ex: if a nb is in an AOE, they are visible to the enemy. Period. Only when the nb is out of range of the AOE can the NB become invis. And that is at the exact same time they can currently. Exact same counter play.
Someone did suggest cloak having a 1 sec reveal but it was completely separate from what's suggested in the OP. You're response is tailored for them.
(Btw, a red tint would simply be to indicate to the enemy that the NB is attempting to cloak)
For the sake of discussion tho, when you're speaking of counters to shields, reflect and healing in comparison to cloak. There's no real comparison. Cloak when countered doesn't exist. Shields absorb a specified amount of damage, heals debuffed still heal and reflect still reflects. NB is they only class that can have full resources and have no access to their defense. Even with SB shields still protect from everyone else. Cloak being broke allows all enemies to unleash 100% of their offense on NBs.
Cloak having so many counters is one thing. Unteliabity take sit over the top. The change is necessary without effecting balance. Sensible really
The red tint is what I mean by partial reveal and I was mistaken when I directed the 1 second timer towards you.
My point stands. When cloak is countered it does not exist, yes, but when it is not, the caster is invulnerable. Shield users are not invulnerable when casting a shield. Heals do not ignore all damage. Reflect only works against ranged attacks. That's the difference. Cloak allow the user to be invincible while it is active. No other defense allows such a mechanic, other than dodge (both share the same weakness to aoe and cloak gets the bonus of ignoring dots.) Checks and balances are needed. If cloaked worked as intended, it is a potentially op skill that is brought back into balance due to its varying hard counters.Edited by BlackMadara on 14 March 2017 18:310 -
Kay1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Changing cloak won't make NB viable for PvP they are still very bad because of their lack of Major Mending and resistance.
Make cloack remove 1 dot and I will use it again for 1vX instead of Shadow Image because Shadow Image is ten times better for everything.K1 The Big Monkey0 -
zuto40✭✭✭✭✭Changing cloak won't make NB viable for PvP they are still very bad because of their lack of Major Mending and resistance.
Make cloack remove 1 dot and I will use it again for 1vX instead of Shadow Image because Shadow Image is ten times better for everything.
i do not want major mending, i do not want super high resistances, im already at 17k on a medium armor build, we are assassins not tanks or healers. Cloak is all that needs to be fixed, maybe undodgeable incap tooStamblade- Legate
Tank/Heals Templar- Sergeant
Magic DK- Corporal
Stam DK- Sergeant
Stamplar- Corporal
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PrinceRyzen✭✭✭catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »NightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.
Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.
Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?
The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.
What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?
They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?
The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.
1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.
What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.
This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.
Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.
This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?
Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.
And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.
Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.
You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?
Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.
When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?
2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.
See above in reference to my shield comment.
Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).
Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.
While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.
I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.
Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.
my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;
OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)
This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)
The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...
What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.
Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.
Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.
Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.
I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....
You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."
Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.
Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.
For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.
What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.
You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.
I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.
I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.
So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?
So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.
You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)
Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.
Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.
And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)
Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.
You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.
It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.
Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.
You start with:
"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.
Then you follow up with:
"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."
What other OP were you referring to if not me?
And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.
Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.
Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.
semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?
That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy.
I initially responded to you because you said that what was suggested was 100% uptime on cloak. That was false. I didnt want the thread to be derailed by misinformation.
As for counterplay, nothing changes for the enemy facing the NB. If the enemy reveals the NB, they are free to burst them down. This change doesn't effect that scenario. Fact. The same strats to kill a NB still apply. THATS what counterplay is an hasn't changed.
The biggest impact this change will have is that all the faulty things that are breaking cloak, that aren't meant to be, won't cost the NB twice within 3 seconds.
You're campaigning in hopes that NB will still be wasting resources on a failing/faulty ability. This will fix that.
Btw, Ill quote you on this:
" A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg."
Spamming is what you said you will do. Aoe was my example. Spamming is a technique. So yea, it is yours. No confusion on my end.
So, if YOU choose to spam an AOE to find a NB, YOU are the reason resources favor your opponent. That's true before and after the suggested change. (btw, zerg means to use numbers instead of skill to beat an opponent.)
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PrinceRyzen✭✭✭BlackMadara wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »@PrinceRyzen
Your suggestion is a bandaid fix for the unreliability of cloak, and a potentially op one at that.
While it makes sense that mentioned mechanic exists in other games, ESO's spammable nature cannot support the partial reveal on hit in invis. Other games have a cd for a invisible ability, which means that it breaking on aoe would be a rather large detriment for that class. The fact that one can recast cloak immediately after leaving a pbaoe is enough.
Another reason your 1 sec partial reveal would be unbalanced is 1.1 ish second gcd on abilities. The nb in question would still remain untouched unless stuck in a large aoe.
I believe that your suggestion would not be necessary if cloak was reliable. You cast it, and it only breaks on being hit by an aoe. Sadly, it does not work as intended due to being broken by non aoe skills. The functional skill is already very strong, essentially a magicka dodge roll that comes with invisibility and dot suppression for 3 seconds. Keeping all of those traits and removing the hard counter of aoe tilts the scales too far toward nb.
Look at powerful defensive class mechanics (in a perfect, nonbuggy world.
Sorc Shields - basically extra health with no resists and cannot be crit. Only counters crit damage, is broken by all damage and ignored by shield breaker.
DK Wings - counters range attacks for 4 hits . Counters range and useless against melee
Templar Purge and Heals - removal of negative effects to allow healing to be better. Universal "defense" and countered by burst damage and healing debuffs
NB cloak - force incoming attacks to miss and remain untargeteable and invisible for 3 seconds while suppressing dots. Canceled by aoe hit, magelight/camo hunter, and detect pots.
The more powerful the defensive mechanic, the more counters it has. Specifically wings ignoring all range attacks and being useless against melee, and cloak being broken only by aoe and specific spells and pots. Cloak is very powerful IF IT ISN'T BUGGED and therefore needs it's more vast and specific counters.
You've confused my suggestion with someone else. I never suggested cloak having a partial 1 second reveal.
The original suggestion for ex: if a nb is in an AOE, they are visible to the enemy. Period. Only when the nb is out of range of the AOE can the NB become invis. And that is at the exact same time they can currently. Exact same counter play.
Someone did suggest cloak having a 1 sec reveal but it was completely separate from what's suggested in the OP. You're response is tailored for them.
(Btw, a red tint would simply be to indicate to the enemy that the NB is attempting to cloak)
For the sake of discussion tho, when you're speaking of counters to shields, reflect and healing in comparison to cloak. There's no real comparison. Cloak when countered doesn't exist. Shields absorb a specified amount of damage, heals debuffed still heal and reflect still reflects. NB is they only class that can have full resources and have no access to their defense. Even with SB shields still protect from everyone else. Cloak being broke allows all enemies to unleash 100% of their offense on NBs.
Cloak having so many counters is one thing. Unteliabity take sit over the top. The change is necessary without effecting balance. Sensible really
The red tint is what I mean by partial reveal and I was mistaken when I directed the 1 second timer towards you.
My point stands. When cloak is countered it does not exist, yes, but when it is not, the caster is invulnerable. Shield users are not invulnerable when casting a shield. Heals do not ignore all damage. Reflect only works against ranged attacks. That's the difference. Cloak allow the user to be invincible while it is active. No other defense allows such a mechanic, other than dodge (both share the same weakness to aoe and cloak gets the bonus of ignoring dots.) Checks and balances are needed. If cloaked worked as intended, it is a potentially op skill that is brought back into balance due to its varying hard counters.
A few issues with this post.
Cloak users have never been invulnerable. Niether when casting nor after. The idea that shields users are somehow more vulnerable is false. In fact, when casting a shield, you can gaurantee how much damage it'll absorb. Casting cloak, when taking damage is a gamble.
But ultimately Your last statement is really telling:
" If cloaked worked as intended, it is a potentially op skill that is brought back into balance due to its varying hard counters."
Working as intended is a good thing. Hard counters don't require the ability to be buggy. Not sure where youre coming from on this one honestly.0 -
catalyst10e✭✭✭✭PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »NightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.
Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.
Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?
The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.
What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?
They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?
The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.
1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.
What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.
This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.
Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.
This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?
Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.
And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.
Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.
You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?
Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.
When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?
2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.
See above in reference to my shield comment.
Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).
Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.
While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.
I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.
Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.
my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;
OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)
This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)
The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...
What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.
Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.
Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.
Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.
I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....
You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."
Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.
Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.
For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.
What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.
You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.
I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.
I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.
So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?
So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.
You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)
Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.
Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.
And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)
Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.
You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.
It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.
Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.
You start with:
"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.
Then you follow up with:
"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."
What other OP were you referring to if not me?
And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.
Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.
Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.
semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?
That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy.
I initially responded to you because you said that what was suggested was 100% uptime on cloak. That was false. I didnt want the thread to be derailed by misinformation.
As for counterplay, nothing changes for the enemy facing the NB. If the enemy reveals the NB, they are free to burst them down. This change doesn't effect that scenario. Fact. The same strats to kill a NB still apply. THATS what counterplay is an hasn't changed.
The biggest impact this change will have is that all the faulty things that are breaking cloak, that aren't meant to be, won't cost the NB twice within 3 seconds.
You're campaigning in hopes that NB will still be wasting resources on a failing/faulty ability. This will fix that.
Btw, Ill quote you on this:
" A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg."
Spamming is what you said you will do. Aoe was my example. Spamming is a technique. So yea, it is yours. No confusion on my end.
So, if YOU choose to spam an AOE to find a NB, YOU are the reason resources favor your opponent. That's true before and after the suggested change. (btw, zerg means to use numbers instead of skill to beat an opponent.)
How is it you can suggest 1-2 seconds of free invis, after someone broke the skill with an AOE and still try and claim that it doesnt effect counterplay? Your skill is broken, and you getting a free recast for the remaining duration to you has NO effect whatsoever on the counterplay at all? Again; It'd be no different than my shields auto re-applying for remaining time after being broken. Explain that to me.
Here is, again, YOU said AOE, so am I supposed to reference magelight in my example scenario? Does that example make as much sense if I say "I'll streak over and drop 3 revealing flares to find him"? No, because that is an existing counterplay that you werent talking about. THAT would be weird If you mention AOE damage abilities breaking cloak and I'm over here talking about spamming magelight. Noted tho, I'll be sure to include that next time. Furthermore Here's you;PrinceRyzen wrote: »"And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging."
I made no mention of numbers, or groups or anything in my initial post. This is you projecting that I meant a zerg, Then you later go on to accuse me of derailing by mentioning Zergs;PrinceRyzen wrote: »"Nothing you're saying in this post has anything to do with the suggested change to cloak. You're jumping from zergs, to bombs, to AOE caps, to why shields were nerfed and literally not one point regarding what has been suggested."
YOU are the one who mentioned Zergs, not me, It wasnt until you brought it up that I had to talk about them AT ALL. Again 2 people is not a zerg. I have never met anyone who has ever seen 2 players together and claimed a zerg was on the way. I've never heard of anyone 1v2ing and saying they took on a zerg and won. That might be YOUR definition of a zerg, but you should at least come to terms with it being in the minority of what is vastly considered the "norm".
You are campaigning for an ability to vastly over-perform, and open the skill up to additional abuse."Why settle for just stabbing your foes when you can roast them alive in a gout of arcane fire?"
[| DC Breton Sorcerer || NA PS4 || PSN: Catalyst10e |]
[| DC Dunmer Dragon Knight |]0 -
PrinceRyzen✭✭✭catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »NightbladeMechanics wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s
Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).
It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).
Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.
OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.
Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.
Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?
The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.
What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?
They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?
The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.
1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.
What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.
This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.
Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.
This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?
Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.
And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.
Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.
You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?
Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.
When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?
2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.
See above in reference to my shield comment.
Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).
Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.
While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.
I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.
Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.
my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;
OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)
This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)
The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...
What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.
Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.
Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.
Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.
I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....
You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."
Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.
Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.
For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.
What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.
You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.
I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.
I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.
So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?
So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.
You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)
Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.
Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.
And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)
Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.
You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.
It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.
Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.
You start with:
"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.
Then you follow up with:
"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."
What other OP were you referring to if not me?
And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.
Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.
Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.
semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?
That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy.
I initially responded to you because you said that what was suggested was 100% uptime on cloak. That was false. I didnt want the thread to be derailed by misinformation.
As for counterplay, nothing changes for the enemy facing the NB. If the enemy reveals the NB, they are free to burst them down. This change doesn't effect that scenario. Fact. The same strats to kill a NB still apply. THATS what counterplay is an hasn't changed.
The biggest impact this change will have is that all the faulty things that are breaking cloak, that aren't meant to be, won't cost the NB twice within 3 seconds.
You're campaigning in hopes that NB will still be wasting resources on a failing/faulty ability. This will fix that.
Btw, Ill quote you on this:
" A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg."
Spamming is what you said you will do. Aoe was my example. Spamming is a technique. So yea, it is yours. No confusion on my end.
So, if YOU choose to spam an AOE to find a NB, YOU are the reason resources favor your opponent. That's true before and after the suggested change. (btw, zerg means to use numbers instead of skill to beat an opponent.)
How is it you can suggest 1-2 seconds of free invis, after someone broke the skill with an AOE and still try and claim that it doesnt effect counterplay? Your skill is broken, and you getting a free recast for the remaining duration to you has NO effect whatsoever on the counterplay at all? Again; It'd be no different than my shields auto re-applying for remaining time after being broken. Explain that to me.
Here is, again, YOU said AOE, so am I supposed to reference magelight in my example scenario? Does that example make as much sense if I say "I'll streak over and drop 3 revealing flares to find him"? No, because that is an existing counterplay that you werent talking about. THAT would be weird If you mention AOE damage abilities breaking cloak and I'm over here talking about spamming magelight. Noted tho, I'll be sure to include that next time. Furthermore Here's you;PrinceRyzen wrote: »"And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging."
I made no mention of numbers, or groups or anything in my initial post. This is you projecting that I meant a zerg, Then you later go on to accuse me of derailing by mentioning Zergs;PrinceRyzen wrote: »"Nothing you're saying in this post has anything to do with the suggested change to cloak. You're jumping from zergs, to bombs, to AOE caps, to why shields were nerfed and literally not one point regarding what has been suggested."
YOU are the one who mentioned Zergs, not me, It wasnt until you brought it up that I had to talk about them AT ALL. Again 2 people is not a zerg. I have never met anyone who has ever seen 2 players together and claimed a zerg was on the way. I've never heard of anyone 1v2ing and saying they took on a zerg and won. That might be YOUR definition of a zerg, but you should at least come to terms with it being in the minority of what is vastly considered the "norm".
You are campaigning for an ability to vastly over-perform, and open the skill up to additional abuse.
I made certain I answered your questions each go round but your posts have little to nothing to do with the OP.
You use bad techniques as a basis to judge the skill (current and after change) and in defense you go in circles defending yourself. Debates not even addressing the suggestion.
This is you:
"Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive."
And I simply informed you that this describes zerging. More importantly it has NOTHING to do with the change. I never suggested cloak be changed so that only enemy damage the NB can see them. I simply said the NB becomes visible.
But that doesn't register with you. You'd rather argue that you made no mention of numbers or groups. Yes. You did, but who cares? Its besides the point. The point is that isn't the suggestion.
And now your going right back to a free recast.. See..Circles. The ability still costs.
But since you asked me to explain: Shields don't get broken. They absorb X amount of damage. If that amount of damage is absorbed than your shield worked. It was worth the cost. If it were to reapply than that means double the amount of damage absorbable when it already worked the first time. Get it? Meaning it'd work twice. And btw, shields last from 6 - 10 seconds.
Cloak however costs resources when it fails in situations it's intended to work. Meaning all cost, but no effect. Allowing the ability 3 seconds alleviates the cost for nothing while still allowing all counters to work. Win/Win. The 3 second duration maintains the balance.
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I think nb's should be invis 100% of the time and get a 50% damage increase when casting cloak.
That should balance this class.Smiff0 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭PrinceRyzen wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »@PrinceRyzen
Your suggestion is a bandaid fix for the unreliability of cloak, and a potentially op one at that.
While it makes sense that mentioned mechanic exists in other games, ESO's spammable nature cannot support the partial reveal on hit in invis. Other games have a cd for a invisible ability, which means that it breaking on aoe would be a rather large detriment for that class. The fact that one can recast cloak immediately after leaving a pbaoe is enough.
Another reason your 1 sec partial reveal would be unbalanced is 1.1 ish second gcd on abilities. The nb in question would still remain untouched unless stuck in a large aoe.
I believe that your suggestion would not be necessary if cloak was reliable. You cast it, and it only breaks on being hit by an aoe. Sadly, it does not work as intended due to being broken by non aoe skills. The functional skill is already very strong, essentially a magicka dodge roll that comes with invisibility and dot suppression for 3 seconds. Keeping all of those traits and removing the hard counter of aoe tilts the scales too far toward nb.
Look at powerful defensive class mechanics (in a perfect, nonbuggy world.
Sorc Shields - basically extra health with no resists and cannot be crit. Only counters crit damage, is broken by all damage and ignored by shield breaker.
DK Wings - counters range attacks for 4 hits . Counters range and useless against melee
Templar Purge and Heals - removal of negative effects to allow healing to be better. Universal "defense" and countered by burst damage and healing debuffs
NB cloak - force incoming attacks to miss and remain untargeteable and invisible for 3 seconds while suppressing dots. Canceled by aoe hit, magelight/camo hunter, and detect pots.
The more powerful the defensive mechanic, the more counters it has. Specifically wings ignoring all range attacks and being useless against melee, and cloak being broken only by aoe and specific spells and pots. Cloak is very powerful IF IT ISN'T BUGGED and therefore needs it's more vast and specific counters.
You've confused my suggestion with someone else. I never suggested cloak having a partial 1 second reveal.
The original suggestion for ex: if a nb is in an AOE, they are visible to the enemy. Period. Only when the nb is out of range of the AOE can the NB become invis. And that is at the exact same time they can currently. Exact same counter play.
Someone did suggest cloak having a 1 sec reveal but it was completely separate from what's suggested in the OP. You're response is tailored for them.
(Btw, a red tint would simply be to indicate to the enemy that the NB is attempting to cloak)
For the sake of discussion tho, when you're speaking of counters to shields, reflect and healing in comparison to cloak. There's no real comparison. Cloak when countered doesn't exist. Shields absorb a specified amount of damage, heals debuffed still heal and reflect still reflects. NB is they only class that can have full resources and have no access to their defense. Even with SB shields still protect from everyone else. Cloak being broke allows all enemies to unleash 100% of their offense on NBs.
Cloak having so many counters is one thing. Unteliabity take sit over the top. The change is necessary without effecting balance. Sensible really
The red tint is what I mean by partial reveal and I was mistaken when I directed the 1 second timer towards you.
My point stands. When cloak is countered it does not exist, yes, but when it is not, the caster is invulnerable. Shield users are not invulnerable when casting a shield. Heals do not ignore all damage. Reflect only works against ranged attacks. That's the difference. Cloak allow the user to be invincible while it is active. No other defense allows such a mechanic, other than dodge (both share the same weakness to aoe and cloak gets the bonus of ignoring dots.) Checks and balances are needed. If cloaked worked as intended, it is a potentially op skill that is brought back into balance due to its varying hard counters.
A few issues with this post.
Cloak users have never been invulnerable. Niether when casting nor after. The idea that shields users are somehow more vulnerable is false. In fact, when casting a shield, you can gaurantee how much damage it'll absorb. Casting cloak, when taking damage is a gamble.
But ultimately Your last statement is really telling:
" If cloaked worked as intended, it is a potentially op skill that is brought back into balance due to its varying hard counters."
Working as intended is a good thing. Hard counters don't require the ability to be buggy. Not sure where youre coming from on this one honestly.
While invisible, the cloak user is untargeteable and ignore dots, which means they are effectively invulnerable to everything but aoe when this game has a point and click target combat system.
While working as intended, casting cloak while a projectile is in the air or in the middle of an animation of a melee skill will cause the skill to "miss."
Shield users are more vulnerable due to sheds just being extra health with different resistance values. Whole cloaked, the user is only subject to aoe and can position himself away from these while invisible. The shield user will have you position themselves away from all abilities, which is much harder. Cloak can be seen almost like LoS and we all know how key that is in battle.
You are obviously confused over my last statement, and I think this is because you are being so defensive. I want cloak to work as intended. That means that the balance of its overwhelming strengths and various hard counters can come into play. Right now, it isn't balanced due to being hurt by the buggy nature of random skills breaking it that aren't supposed to.
You shouldn't buff a skill because it is broken and buggy. First work on fixing the skill. If that doesn't work, rework.0 -
PrinceRyzen✭✭✭BlackMadara wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »@PrinceRyzen
Your suggestion is a bandaid fix for the unreliability of cloak, and a potentially op one at that.
While it makes sense that mentioned mechanic exists in other games, ESO's spammable nature cannot support the partial reveal on hit in invis. Other games have a cd for a invisible ability, which means that it breaking on aoe would be a rather large detriment for that class. The fact that one can recast cloak immediately after leaving a pbaoe is enough.
Another reason your 1 sec partial reveal would be unbalanced is 1.1 ish second gcd on abilities. The nb in question would still remain untouched unless stuck in a large aoe.
I believe that your suggestion would not be necessary if cloak was reliable. You cast it, and it only breaks on being hit by an aoe. Sadly, it does not work as intended due to being broken by non aoe skills. The functional skill is already very strong, essentially a magicka dodge roll that comes with invisibility and dot suppression for 3 seconds. Keeping all of those traits and removing the hard counter of aoe tilts the scales too far toward nb.
Look at powerful defensive class mechanics (in a perfect, nonbuggy world.
Sorc Shields - basically extra health with no resists and cannot be crit. Only counters crit damage, is broken by all damage and ignored by shield breaker.
DK Wings - counters range attacks for 4 hits . Counters range and useless against melee
Templar Purge and Heals - removal of negative effects to allow healing to be better. Universal "defense" and countered by burst damage and healing debuffs
NB cloak - force incoming attacks to miss and remain untargeteable and invisible for 3 seconds while suppressing dots. Canceled by aoe hit, magelight/camo hunter, and detect pots.
The more powerful the defensive mechanic, the more counters it has. Specifically wings ignoring all range attacks and being useless against melee, and cloak being broken only by aoe and specific spells and pots. Cloak is very powerful IF IT ISN'T BUGGED and therefore needs it's more vast and specific counters.
You've confused my suggestion with someone else. I never suggested cloak having a partial 1 second reveal.
The original suggestion for ex: if a nb is in an AOE, they are visible to the enemy. Period. Only when the nb is out of range of the AOE can the NB become invis. And that is at the exact same time they can currently. Exact same counter play.
Someone did suggest cloak having a 1 sec reveal but it was completely separate from what's suggested in the OP. You're response is tailored for them.
(Btw, a red tint would simply be to indicate to the enemy that the NB is attempting to cloak)
For the sake of discussion tho, when you're speaking of counters to shields, reflect and healing in comparison to cloak. There's no real comparison. Cloak when countered doesn't exist. Shields absorb a specified amount of damage, heals debuffed still heal and reflect still reflects. NB is they only class that can have full resources and have no access to their defense. Even with SB shields still protect from everyone else. Cloak being broke allows all enemies to unleash 100% of their offense on NBs.
Cloak having so many counters is one thing. Unteliabity take sit over the top. The change is necessary without effecting balance. Sensible really
The red tint is what I mean by partial reveal and I was mistaken when I directed the 1 second timer towards you.
My point stands. When cloak is countered it does not exist, yes, but when it is not, the caster is invulnerable. Shield users are not invulnerable when casting a shield. Heals do not ignore all damage. Reflect only works against ranged attacks. That's the difference. Cloak allow the user to be invincible while it is active. No other defense allows such a mechanic, other than dodge (both share the same weakness to aoe and cloak gets the bonus of ignoring dots.) Checks and balances are needed. If cloaked worked as intended, it is a potentially op skill that is brought back into balance due to its varying hard counters.
A few issues with this post.
Cloak users have never been invulnerable. Niether when casting nor after. The idea that shields users are somehow more vulnerable is false. In fact, when casting a shield, you can gaurantee how much damage it'll absorb. Casting cloak, when taking damage is a gamble.
But ultimately Your last statement is really telling:
" If cloaked worked as intended, it is a potentially op skill that is brought back into balance due to its varying hard counters."
Working as intended is a good thing. Hard counters don't require the ability to be buggy. Not sure where youre coming from on this one honestly.
While invisible, the cloak user is untargeteable and ignore dots, which means they are effectively invulnerable to everything but aoe when this game has a point and click target combat system.
While working as intended, casting cloak while a projectile is in the air or in the middle of an animation of a melee skill will cause the skill to "miss."
Shield users are more vulnerable due to sheds just being extra health with different resistance values. Whole cloaked, the user is only subject to aoe and can position himself away from these while invisible. The shield user will have you position themselves away from all abilities, which is much harder. Cloak can be seen almost like LoS and we all know how key that is in battle.
You are obviously confused over my last statement, and I think this is because you are being so defensive. I want cloak to work as intended. That means that the balance of its overwhelming strengths and various hard counters can come into play. Right now, it isn't balanced due to being hurt by the buggy nature of random skills breaking it that aren't supposed to.
You shouldn't buff a skill because it is broken and buggy. First work on fixing the skill. If that doesn't work, rework.
Actually cloak doesn't purge dots thus it isn't invulnerable. In fact there are Dots that can break cloak repeatedly once applied.
Shields can't be interrupted and always work. Cloak can be prevented from even being used. Also, what is "supposed" to miss doesn't always. Abilities can land just after cloak and unintentially break it. Hence the issues with cloak.
You're basing your view point on cloak "while working as intended" when it hasn't in years.
And I actually wasn't confused by your statement. Just disagreed and figured it's best to let you clean that up. You claim a skill, if it was working as intended, is OP. Theres a lot wrong with that statement.
Lastly, you say don't buff, fix. If fix doesn't work rework. What else would we be discussing? This isn't a buff to cloak. It's really a fix. No increase to damage, duration, etc. 100% of all counters still apply. The only difference is the ability becomes reliable when cast. The invisibility will still be buggy and randomly broken but the NB can rest assure the ability is casted.
Fix/buff/rework/nerf are all subjective terms anyway.0 -
Metemsycosis✭✭✭✭I main a mageblade and it would be selfish to agree to a change like this . AOE is a great counter play and should remain that way imo. I've used it too. Lotus fan sap lotus fan sap fear. I spend my resources but my opponent doesn't have to?
I know a lot of people have issues with cloak not working correctly. And it is frustrating to spend 6K magicka for one cloak. Zos could fix cloak or make it clear what breaks it or doesn't, and what's supposed to.
I personally think that cloak needs examined for the stamina night blade more so than the magicka version, since stamina nb's toolkit relies quite a lot on magicka.
For now I just let it teach me about positioning: If I get myself into a spot where my cloak can get busted that easily I blame it on me not the opponent . There are plenty of times I've disengaged, gotten away, and came back only to surrender my position and get focused down by multiple enemies. That's not a cloak issue, it's a L2p issueTerethea Magdalena, Breton Nightblade
A Dark-Adapted Eye, Imperial Necromancer
sanguinare vampiris
https://m.twitch.tv/amcrenshaw/profile1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BlackMadara wrote: »PrinceRyzen wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »@PrinceRyzen
Your suggestion is a bandaid fix for the unreliability of cloak, and a potentially op one at that.
While it makes sense that mentioned mechanic exists in other games, ESO's spammable nature cannot support the partial reveal on hit in invis. Other games have a cd for a invisible ability, which means that it breaking on aoe would be a rather large detriment for that class. The fact that one can recast cloak immediately after leaving a pbaoe is enough.
Another reason your 1 sec partial reveal would be unbalanced is 1.1 ish second gcd on abilities. The nb in question would still remain untouched unless stuck in a large aoe.
I believe that your suggestion would not be necessary if cloak was reliable. You cast it, and it only breaks on being hit by an aoe. Sadly, it does not work as intended due to being broken by non aoe skills. The functional skill is already very strong, essentially a magicka dodge roll that comes with invisibility and dot suppression for 3 seconds. Keeping all of those traits and removing the hard counter of aoe tilts the scales too far toward nb.
Look at powerful defensive class mechanics (in a perfect, nonbuggy world.
Sorc Shields - basically extra health with no resists and cannot be crit. Only counters crit damage, is broken by all damage and ignored by shield breaker.
DK Wings - counters range attacks for 4 hits . Counters range and useless against melee
Templar Purge and Heals - removal of negative effects to allow healing to be better. Universal "defense" and countered by burst damage and healing debuffs
NB cloak - force incoming attacks to miss and remain untargeteable and invisible for 3 seconds while suppressing dots. Canceled by aoe hit, magelight/camo hunter, and detect pots.
The more powerful the defensive mechanic, the more counters it has. Specifically wings ignoring all range attacks and being useless against melee, and cloak being broken only by aoe and specific spells and pots. Cloak is very powerful IF IT ISN'T BUGGED and therefore needs it's more vast and specific counters.
You've confused my suggestion with someone else. I never suggested cloak having a partial 1 second reveal.
The original suggestion for ex: if a nb is in an AOE, they are visible to the enemy. Period. Only when the nb is out of range of the AOE can the NB become invis. And that is at the exact same time they can currently. Exact same counter play.
Someone did suggest cloak having a 1 sec reveal but it was completely separate from what's suggested in the OP. You're response is tailored for them.
(Btw, a red tint would simply be to indicate to the enemy that the NB is attempting to cloak)
For the sake of discussion tho, when you're speaking of counters to shields, reflect and healing in comparison to cloak. There's no real comparison. Cloak when countered doesn't exist. Shields absorb a specified amount of damage, heals debuffed still heal and reflect still reflects. NB is they only class that can have full resources and have no access to their defense. Even with SB shields still protect from everyone else. Cloak being broke allows all enemies to unleash 100% of their offense on NBs.
Cloak having so many counters is one thing. Unteliabity take sit over the top. The change is necessary without effecting balance. Sensible really
The red tint is what I mean by partial reveal and I was mistaken when I directed the 1 second timer towards you.
My point stands. When cloak is countered it does not exist, yes, but when it is not, the caster is invulnerable. Shield users are not invulnerable when casting a shield. Heals do not ignore all damage. Reflect only works against ranged attacks. That's the difference. Cloak allow the user to be invincible while it is active. No other defense allows such a mechanic, other than dodge (both share the same weakness to aoe and cloak gets the bonus of ignoring dots.) Checks and balances are needed. If cloaked worked as intended, it is a potentially op skill that is brought back into balance due to its varying hard counters.
When you cloak, you just cloak. If you do any action that affects others, you are visible again. The only things you can do while cloaked are things that only affects you.
Hence, when a sorc cast shield, he can heal himself without losing that shield. Whe a NB cas cloak, immediately after he cast a heal, he lose the cloak.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
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