So how long are we going to leave this ZERO counterplay in the game?

Ankael07

Patch after patch its getting easier to get 1 shot. They fix one thing (half fixed procs) then something else pops up. At this point you get to see more fight in an FPS game than an encounter with a 1 shot build like these.

Reefo

Some comments have been removed from this thread why?

thankyourat

Ishammael wrote: »

Just gonna post an agree with @Derra. He has covered all of the main points.

Invisibility should be the advantage in an of itself. If anything, you should get a damage decrease when attacking from stealth.

Those stealth changes would be some pretty hefty nerfs to some class defining skills and passives for a class that's not really over performing at the moment. I do find invisibility to be over powered when you are fighting outnumbered but 1v1 it's not really a problem and very manageable to deal with. I don't think something can be nerfed because it's strong Xv1 if that was the case this whole game would need to be nerfed lol. especially templars they would need a whole rework.

Derra

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Counter play.... radiant mageblight... any other questions? Being in stealth is helpful to. Holding block when standing there even. This build is not new been out for months before Sypher... or Blob put it out. Getting ganked has been in the game for a long time. I used to literally one shot people with snipe. Then later after nerf... two shots. People that run radiant can't get ganked in the traditional sense.

Slotting an otherwise useless skill (while also having to remorph when switching to pve every time) on both bars can hardly be considered counterplay.

"Hey to not run the possibility to instantly die to an enemy you will never see coming you have to give up 20% of your active skills. Because *** you that´s why."

Anyone who can explain to me why and what about that is good balance i´ll gift a million gold on the eu server.

You have been using this same nonsense for over 2 years.

Simple fact: If you want to avoid instagibbing, use it. If folks choose not to, don't come crying here. If you want to counter something you need to sacrifice elsewhere.

What nonsense? Where do i cry?

I simply point out a fact. That the counterskill argument is not a valid argument because the counterskill does counter the gank - but makes your build otherwise useless.
It´s the equivalent of hacking of your own foot to avoid getting drafted - not a smart move.

Also it´s a shame that you´re mentioning daoc and eso in the same context of ganking. In daoc ganking hat actual counterplay and no oneshots.

I bolded the nonsense part-
You lose 5%magicka and 10% crit vs 12m of 50% sneak damage reduction and immunity to stealth crits (for ALL within the radius)
It's a choice, neither will make or break a build or render one ineffective. To say that it does is a gross overstatement.

As to the crying- That was a generalized statement, not targeted at you. Rather at anyone who complains but refuses to use the counters.

Like you, massive amounts of players undervalue Radiant Magelight and my ganker hopes they continue to do so.

*Edit- Forgot to address the DAoC statement. DAoC utilized perma cc chains for stealth combat (melee) which resulted in 2-3 shots with the same results, inability to control your toon before you died. Unless you meant scouts, in which case it was 2 shots

Ok so removing 20% of your active skills to slot a skill twice that only passively counters instant deaths from invisibility and offers no additional functionality not accessible otherwise is not severely reducing your builds efficiency?
I guess we have a different view on how important two other active skills that are usefull in every sitiuation are in a game only allowing you to access ten of those.
I have to ask if you´re serious at this point - because i can´t imagine you are (see it´s not competing with inner light - i need inner light for pve AND i use two other active skills for pvp - that is what radiant competes against).

It´s not the point that i undervalue radiant magelight. It´s that it´s a skill i don´t need EVER apart from the circumstance of getting ganked.
That´s the core problem of all anti gank and stealth mechanics. They add nothing to a build apart from countering stealth and ganks.

In eso where basically every skill is universially usefull or multi purpose the mechanics to counter stealth and ganking are unique in a way that these skills are single purpose and useless at doing anything but that. I think that´s a flaw in the core design of those abilities.

In daoc you could avoid getting ganked simply by moving correctly (as it required positional styles).
In daoc you had an active counter with purge.
In daoc you could not get ganked in groups because heals effectively hardcountered it flatout.
None of this is true with the possibility to instantly die in eso. It offers no counterplay (execept for using an otherwise useless skill which reduces your overall effectiveness by 20%).

No wonder why you think it gimps a spec. You seem to think it's required on both bars!
It's no longer a toggle and most people have a combat bar and a healing/buff bar. You only need it slotted on the bar you mostly use.

And I was wrong about the crit. So these days the only thing you lose by using radiant is the +5% magicka. Which is not desperately needed in pvp, but is in pve, however you can always respect for a whopping 900 gold (275 skill points) which is nothing.

You must have played DAoC a lot later than I did, I only played release to Atlantis and there was no counter to it whatsoever. As for positional, it wasn't hard to get in front of an ememy and perf artery, cc chain and dead lol. Or unless you were a scout then it was 2-3 shots while they were still looking for you lol.

I fight of both bars and spend my time equally on both bars. I don´t have a main and an off bar. As a result i need it on both bars.

Respec costs me about ~1300 gold. Depends on the number of morphs you respec.

I loose two other skills by slotting radiant. It has nothing to do with inner light. I loose two complete skills that are universially useful while radiant give me exactly - nothing apart from not instantly dying.

I have played daoc from europe beta until 2009. I played a lot solo in old emain with my runemaster and spiritmaster. I´ve very rarely been ccchained to death - because daoc offered a brief moment before PA chain where you would see the infi or nightshade and could turn to avoid a successful hit.
Bow got hardcountered by quickcast nearsight

The only time i remember when stealth had no counter in daoc was 2h shadowblade with buffbot was oneshotting everything. That got fixed relatively quick - and i was lucky to play mid myself.

technohic

Ishammael wrote: »

Just gonna post an agree with @Derra. He has covered all of the main points.

Invisibility should be the advantage in an of itself. If anything, you should get a damage decrease when attacking from stealth.

It's sort of like templars and healing. So long as you are going to heal; you're not getting mobility and CC or of other classes.

thankyourat wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Just gonna post an agree with @Derra. He has covered all of the main points.

Invisibility should be the advantage in an of itself. If anything, you should get a damage decrease when attacking from stealth.

Those stealth changes would be some pretty hefty nerfs to some class defining skills and passives for a class that's not really over performing at the moment. I do find invisibility to be over powered when you are fighting outnumbered but 1v1 it's not really a problem and very manageable to deal with. I don't think something can be nerfed because it's strong Xv1 if that was the case this whole game would need to be nerfed lol. especially templars they would need a whole rework.

So long as those classes are built around 1 strong aspects of their class; then they are always going to have to be pretty limited to that 1 play style. Exceptions occur but that's generally what they excel at.

IlCanis_LupuslI

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4dyYJo9FXg

This is NOT a dig on Sypher, i think Sypher puts out entertaining content. He is just showcasing how broken this is.

I thought Incapacitating Strike was bad, but it has NOTHING on this.

I was testing this the other day, trying to come up with a counter but there really isn't one.

Even with Radiant Magelight slotted good luck surviving it.

It ignores ALL your Armor no matter what type your using.
It can be empowered with Magelight from Stealth
It gets the Stealth Damage multiplier
If you kill someone it refunds the full ultimate cost(meaning its right back up)

So you can roam around Cyrodiil right now:
1. in Cloak,
2. Toggle Magelight, (For Empower)
3. push one button.(Ultimate Button for Onslaught)
4. Insta-kill

I had a few Nightblades do this to me, i just laugh about it. there is literally nothing you can do. Your hit once for 30-35k no need for even a light attack. (on a light armored mag sorc with 2.2k crit resist) and thats that.

This really ought to be changed with an incremental patch. one hit KO's are lame, and they discourage people from playing.

I am Ok with getting hit for 10-12k but 30k? watch the video...Sypher gets off quite a few 35k hits....thats broken...i don't even know what else to say about that.

until then i'll just laugh about it, not much else you can do.

In my healer (spellcure, transmutation) i aktuell survived the hit (20k), it was the following incp what killed me lol. But i have cap crit resistance so that might explain it.

Skritha

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Its already been stated to lower the damage ceiling and raise the damage floor, not sure why the devs ignore this proposition.

Theres one way to do that effectively.

Separate Stats/Variables for Player vs Player.

I do not mind the ganking, as long as there is ability to react..

but the devs made Nightblades one-shot-no-shot like you have said.

@ZOS

Separate Stats for PVP, cause that's the design. Stat Compression, for sucks fake.

This has been the solution since time immemorial.

All you need is two stats: PvP Offense, and PvP Defense.

They wouldn't even have to be on regular gear. You could just open up a slot for a PvP trinket on every toon.

arkansas_ESO

I'm beginning to think a lot of the people in this thread haven't even played NB.

Minalan

I don't think we should remove stealth.
I don't think we should nerf stealth damage or the stun.

In this case, we should just look at the effect stealth and empower together has on just ONE ultimate. No need to overreact. No need to make nightblade useless.

Reefo

https://youtu.be/IKGzv89B7wk

•Less than 25k health
•Low crit resist
•Low armor
•Low points in hardy
•No radiant magelight

All this will result in getting 1shot.
Even with decent defense ratings, when 2 arrows are fired there's no time to react and you will always die.

This is worse than onslaught because it's from range and doesn't require a potion.

30k targets dropping with this, heavy armor targets dropping too.

Enslaved

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4dyYJo9FXg

This is NOT a dig on Sypher, i think Sypher puts out entertaining content. He is just showcasing how broken this is.

I thought Incapacitating Strike was bad, but it has NOTHING on this.

I was testing this the other day, trying to come up with a counter but there really isn't one.

Even with Radiant Magelight slotted good luck surviving it.

It ignores ALL your Armor no matter what type your using.
It can be empowered with Magelight from Stealth
It gets the Stealth Damage multiplier
If you kill someone it refunds the full ultimate cost(meaning its right back up)

So you can roam around Cyrodiil right now:
1. in Cloak,
2. Toggle Magelight, (For Empower)
3. push one button.(Ultimate Button for Onslaught)
4. Insta-kill

I had a few Nightblades do this to me, i just laugh about it. there is literally nothing you can do. Your hit once for 30-35k no need for even a light attack. (on a light armored mag sorc with 2.2k crit resist) and thats that.

This really ought to be changed with an incremental patch. one hit KO's are lame, and they discourage people from playing.

I am Ok with getting hit for 10-12k but 30k? watch the video...Sypher gets off quite a few 35k hits....thats broken...i don't even know what else to say about that.

until then i'll just laugh about it, not much else you can do.

I opened thread and was prepared for another destro ulti cons and cons. Well, at least I loled a bit.

exeeter702

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4dyYJo9FXg

"Axe likes this so much words fail Axe"

QuebraRegra

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

The build you've linked can't do anything against shields or high crit resist. Try looking into running Transmutation or just making sure you don't let your shields drop.

On that note, I think this build highlights a big issue with Cloak: most of it's counters are reactive, not proactive. You don't cast Magelight or pop a detect pot unless you know a NB is nearby. Once you do counter Cloak, though, the NB might as well already be dead, which encourages NBs to try and kill you before you can react (ganking), and, at the same time, punishes them for trying fight normally using Cloak as a re-positioning tool like Streak or Mist Form. This pigeonholes NBs into being gankers and not much else, as Cloak is too important for the NB to let it get countered.

This isn't as simple of a fix as just removing the stealth modifier from Onslaught (because then NBs will just start using something else)—Cloak itself needs to be reworked to where it can be used as something other than a buff to your stealth opener.

MAKE CLOAK GREAT AGAIN!

srsly, I'd love a return to my utility cloak of yesteryear... I could give a fig for the crit outta cloak thing.

QuebraRegra

thankyourat wrote: »

If your want to have counter play to ganking you have to lower the overall damage in the game. it's way too high. I hit someone with a 17k crystal frag before. And I've hit people with 25k plus assassins will. Not to mention I can hit people with 10k plus heavy attacks. As long as damage is so high counterplay will be very low. Ganking is just a bi-product of all this damage. Why can I one shot a player from stealth with a heavy attack soul harvest on my magblade and I'm not even built as a ganker. Is it because stealth is broken? No, it's because damage is broken. Last patch on my stam dk I one shot a player in a duel using double proc sets and poisons. You are always one laggy cc break away from death while playing this game. I just think of it as this game isn't competitive cause it's not. I think people put to much emphasis on stealth and not enough on why damage is so high in the first place, my 17k crystal frag is just as toxic as my 14k incaps. And they just keep giving us more CP to use and more damage boost

NO, NO, NO, NO , NO!

we're you not here last time dmg was nerfed? The problem is and will continue to be the power creep that exists when there are no caps. Go ahead and nerf dmg again, then I'll just be invincible with my heals... then you'll nerf my heal again until more power creep and lather rinse repeat.

Bring back soft caps.

learn the lessons of history.

max_only

Ah, so this is the thread that murdered pve nightblades.

Drakkdjinn

They took away proc crits since this video was made; now with 50% less cheese.

Toc de Malsvi

Hmmm....

p1: 'This is unfair!'

p2: 'This is counter.'

p1: 'I don't want to use counter, it doesn't offer me enough things'

p2: 'If you want to counter, you need to use counter.'

p1: 'I should be able to counter without using counter, this is unfair!'

TheBonesXXX

max_only wrote: »

Ah, so this is the thread that murdered pve nightblades.

Its because you got people who want to run a thorough diagnostic when the problems only require experience to address.

Xeniph

Have no fear, this is no longer an issue.

To compensate all the baddies that cried and complained about being ganked they have removed ALL stealth attack modifiers from the game.

So now folks are free to continue to not learn to properly gear or counter in pvp.

TheBonesXXX

Xeniph wrote: »

Have no fear, this is no longer an issue.

To compensate all the baddies that cried and complained about being ganked they have removed ALL stealth attack modifiers from the game.

So now folks are free to continue to not learn to properly gear or counter in pvp.

That's the forums though, a bunch of kids who cant stand losing just making an argument look palpable to get everyone nerfed so their style is the strongest, but god damn will they defend their style all day and rack stars for it.

I remember when Uppercut got its animation speed increased, then it got buffed some more and now look at stam meta in this game, mostly *** uppercuts and 2 hands. Now what is dual wield abilities in PvP? Obsolete, save for some ineffective tornado spam for those who understand what the *** a motion is and move out the way.

I remember the dodge roll increase costs, when dodge roll and stamina wasn't the issue at all, it was the length of the IFrame window in the actual animation because dodge roll gets an entire IFrame from start to finish, instead of changing the IFrame inside the length of the animation.

I remember when Rapid Strikes had an attack speed buff added to it, so instead they took away the buff and just upped the animation speeds.

Every bad decision, results in one good decision coupled with more bad decisions, but hey, lets toss inflated stats and keep inflating and deflating stats again.

Instead of actually looking at the animations, making the game animation, pro-active, and re-active based, lets make it so we can just smash buttons until our two hardest hitting buttons are relevant and do it that way.

clocksstoppe

If you ever tried this build you would know that people with sufficient crit damage reduction (from gear or passives) and/or sufficient health don't get even nearly oneshot by this. In addition, it's hard to pull off and takes ages to get a nice kill. It's really nothing more than a meme build, just like the stygian gank crap people were trying to hype on youtube a while ago.

Grampa_Smurf

Need new 9 trait Crafted gear

1) Increase Stam & Magika regen by 200
2) Increase WD & SP by 200
3) Reduce Phy and Magic Damage when attacked from stealth by 5000
4) Stun any attacking player from stealth while a shield is active.
5) Increase area of revealing potions by 600%

rfennell_ESO

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I am Ok with getting hit for 10-12k but 30k? watch the video...Sypher gets off quite a few 35k hits....thats broken...i don't even know what else to say about that.

until then i'll just laugh about it, not much else you can do.

It's very situational and not quite as OP as it seems.

It requires an all in on just one trick mentality and play style, if it was so drastically op you would see it being used by every single nb, which you don't.

Stealth damage bonus is going away in morrowind (as per pts 3.0) so this won't hit as hard.

There are other "uncounterable" moves that are far more toxic than this one because they allow for a play style that isn't run and hide. Like: most stamina stacked bugged crit charge moves. If you haven't seen it, you need to pay more attention; it's being run by many a player right now and it's far more toxic than this niche build.

However it's done (and it's being done, and not accidentally)... it allows for the damage portion of crit charge and procs to be applied well before reaching the target (ie how do you dodge something before it gets to you?). When the animation actually reaches you, you are being immediately attacked. So it's what some are calling their "combo" but it's bugged and they know it's bugged. it's basically an auto crit being applied at range before you get any sort of notification of it, coupled with a proc set proc and then likely a spam of an execute when they reach you (or dawnbreaker).

Best part of it all is none of this is remotely being addressed by morrowind at all (the only "change" is the ranged snare allowing crit charge to land)

The only counter to crit charge builds (which are mostly exploitation builds) is wear heavy armor and hold block a lot. Keep in mind you might need to hold block for no reason at all, because they are bugging out the crit charge so it applies the damage from range.

Now compare the gimmick builds to the sheer amount of crit charge builds that give up nothing wearing heavy armor. Keep in mind nearly every streamer or pvp trash talker is running a crit charge build and calling it skill. It's not... at all. It's a joke build that works because of exploits and being broken as hell. What's even worse is they can do it all again... and again. It's nothing but a joke, and a bad one, being called "skilled play". I'm not going to name names, but many have seen a streamer that loves talking "my combo"... but the only way the combo is working is if crit charge applies it's damage at range (with proc damage) and then upon animation culmination instead of damage being applied then, they are applying additonal damage with either dawnbreaker or spamming reverse slice/executioner or even worse when it's power of light at range, crit charge (damage at range) and then biting jabs and a nearly invisible dawnbreaker. What's the counter? pick a nearby rez spot?

Worse yet... is the crit charge bugs/exploits allows for the damage portion finale to be animation cancelled by dodge roll. So not only can you not prevent the damage that's incoming, you can't hit them either. Because right after the dodge roll they can just crit charge again or streak into another "combo" they animation cancel with dodge roll.

Chance of this bug/exploit ever being addressed? zero.

ljb2k5_ESO

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4dyYJo9FXg

This is NOT a dig on Sypher, i think Sypher puts out entertaining content. He is just showcasing how broken this is.

I thought Incapacitating Strike was bad, but it has NOTHING on this.

I was testing this the other day, trying to come up with a counter but there really isn't one.

Even with Radiant Magelight slotted good luck surviving it.

It ignores ALL your Armor no matter what type your using.
It can be empowered with Magelight from Stealth
It gets the Stealth Damage multiplier
If you kill someone it refunds the full ultimate cost(meaning its right back up)

So you can roam around Cyrodiil right now:
1. in Cloak,
2. Toggle Magelight, (For Empower)
3. push one button.(Ultimate Button for Onslaught)
4. Insta-kill

I had a few Nightblades do this to me, i just laugh about it. there is literally nothing you can do. Your hit once for 30-35k no need for even a light attack. (on a light armored mag sorc with 2.2k crit resist) and thats that.

This really ought to be changed with an incremental patch. one hit KO's are lame, and they discourage people from playing.

I am Ok with getting hit for 10-12k but 30k? watch the video...Sypher gets off quite a few 35k hits....thats broken...i don't even know what else to say about that.

until then i'll just laugh about it, not much else you can do.

Ah I get it now, so instead of making only onslaught not take advantage of stealth, they took away bonus damage from stealth from all nightblade attacks on the PTS. Way to sledgehammer instead of scalpel there ZOS.

ishilb14_ESO

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4dyYJo9FXg

This is NOT a dig on Sypher, i think Sypher puts out entertaining content. He is just showcasing how broken this is.

I thought Incapacitating Strike was bad, but it has NOTHING on this.

I was testing this the other day, trying to come up with a counter but there really isn't one.

Even with Radiant Magelight slotted good luck surviving it.

It ignores ALL your Armor no matter what type your using.
It can be empowered with Magelight from Stealth
It gets the Stealth Damage multiplier
If you kill someone it refunds the full ultimate cost(meaning its right back up)

So you can roam around Cyrodiil right now:
1. in Cloak,
2. Toggle Magelight, (For Empower)
3. push one button.(Ultimate Button for Onslaught)
4. Insta-kill

I had a few Nightblades do this to me, i just laugh about it. there is literally nothing you can do. Your hit once for 30-35k no need for even a light attack. (on a light armored mag sorc with 2.2k crit resist) and thats that.

This really ought to be changed with an incremental patch. one hit KO's are lame, and they discourage people from playing.

I am Ok with getting hit for 10-12k but 30k? watch the video...Sypher gets off quite a few 35k hits....thats broken...i don't even know what else to say about that.

until then i'll just laugh about it, not much else you can do.

Stealth damage mulitplier is gone in Morrowind update, but there is a new CP that increases damage of all direct damage attacks.

The build itself is:
5x clever
5x sword singer (3 jewelry all with weapon damage enchant)
1x veli or kena

PS: you forgot step 5 which is "get all ulti back because the person died to it"