Animation Canceling - My point of view and reflection on the subject

xblackroxe

strebor2095 wrote: »

I'm not complaining about it in PvP, PvP is nigh unplayable for me between getting stuck switching bars, permanent horse mounting, and invisible players.

I'm just saying that the game used to be competitively playable with 300 ping, but now it is not as new content is based specifically on this featured exploit, which is not replicable consistently. So, ZOS should either make this easier for most people to achieve (give a feature to prioritize ability casts on you character, then ability cancels second? So even if its in the wrong order the game will interpret it correctly if its within a certain timeframe), or remove it from the game, or create a west coast USA server cluster.

So what then sometimes your lightattack doesn't hit.
If you can't be competetive with 2-3k less dps then you weren't competetive to begin with. There is nothing else you should be using AC for in pve anyway. If you blockcancel any skill you are doing it wrong anyways.

runagate

I just keep seeing the OP's name, @Betahkiin and seeing it an an anagram of Betnikh AI.

SwimsWithMemes

@xblackroxe

Firstly block cancel was just an example.

yeah, sometimes my light attack doesn't hit, sometimes the game turns it into an uncancelable heavy attack, sometimes I can cancel the accidental second cast of Curse, sometimes I can't. Sometimes my bar swap happens immediately, other times I press it again if it didn't register and now I'm chaining skills in the wrong order. If you think consistent, reliable AC only adds 2-3k dps then you're probably not aware of the tremendous increase in a long duration fight.

Assume that I can't AC at all outside of bar swaps, because any attempt to do so may in fact make my delay between abilities longer, and it becomes at least a 5-10k dps loss incorporated with any increase in ping in any fight lasting over a minute.

Again, I like the idea of animation cancelling. But this game has a horrible implementation of it, and an extending issue stemming from it where they risk making end game content unplayable for non local players.

The expectation should be that it exists and is usable, but not that the most difficult content is dependent on your ability to use it. Now if that means that people start complaining about doing 10k dps less or that new content is too east, then ZOS can listen again, and change the way it is implemented so we can actually play this game.

@DyingIsEasy I definitely recall it being more predictable before, and a reversion would probably solve any issue I have.

Zyrudin

Shunravi wrote: »

Again, addressing the subject not necessarily the comment. I wanted to expand the perspective and figured you were better than some to make it a reply to.

I understand the expanded perspective you want to bring, but it can only make sense after the original point is resolved, which is what you also mentioned in the comment above:

Shunravi wrote: »

See the thing is, you are not actually canceling the attack. The game registers the damage at a very specific point in the attack. The attack does connect. This fraction of a second point of connection can be prevented if you block to soon btw. There is a hit.

An attack should not register instantaneously. There should be a time, occupied by an animation, during which it is possible to cancel the attack and the animation at the same time, in favour of a different action, such as block or dodge.

After this is understood, because the fact that it registers instantly is what causes the stacking of damage without any animation, then a more profound view at the depth of animation and movements is able to be discussed on a better foundation, I think.

RinaldoGandolphi

AC is terrible. I only use it because I'm forced too. You won't get passable DPS in many cases without doing it.

Classes like Magicka Templar are inherently disadvantaged by this system as most of their skills are channels are cast times thus diminishing their AC friendly effectiveness

Magic Sorc does not really have a lot you can cancel. Block cancel a Frag proc maybe, light attack force pulse weave, bug there really isn't a lot their to cancel but their skill set and delayed damage burst potential makes up for it.

AC is just button mashing for the most part and it actually removes a layer of skill from the game rather then adding on it. Obfusicating animations is simply broken. I heard 3 attacks hit my shield last night, look at the combat log see 3 skills and a heavy attack, only the heavy attack was visible. I killed the dude anyways without really canceling but that's not the point.

You should not be able to clip and hide the animations not when the entire combat system is based on acting and reacting based on animations.this puts those who don't use adding at a disadvantage.

Till the day this is addressed I'll continue to AC, but that doesn't mean I have to like this broken system

AC weapon swaps is what was causing double Selene procs, and other double procs. It broken and needs to go sooner rather then later

Martan

Zyrudin wrote: »

In a related post I wrote:

I don't think the case here is against being able to cancel the animation of an ability, but against the ability registering the damage despite being cancelled. I agree that one should be able to cancel a channeling or animation to block or get out of the way of unexpected incoming damage instead, but to do that and still register damage is, what I think, is put on trial here.

So I entirely agree with OP.

Me too.

I think it's kind of sad that one has to rely on AC to achieve acceptable DPS for high-tire end game content.

xblackroxe

Martan wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

In a related post I wrote:

I don't think the case here is against being able to cancel the animation of an ability, but against the ability registering the damage despite being cancelled. I agree that one should be able to cancel a channeling or animation to block or get out of the way of unexpected incoming damage instead, but to do that and still register damage is, what I think, is put on trial here.

So I entirely agree with OP.

Me too.

I think it's kind of sad that one has to rely on AC to achieve acceptable DPS for high-tire end game content.

Yeah sure loosing only the lightattack damage surely makes endgame content impossible to clear.

If you dont like it don't use it. Very simple

Martan

xblackroxe wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

In a related post I wrote:

I don't think the case here is against being able to cancel the animation of an ability, but against the ability registering the damage despite being cancelled. I agree that one should be able to cancel a channeling or animation to block or get out of the way of unexpected incoming damage instead, but to do that and still register damage is, what I think, is put on trial here.

So I entirely agree with OP.

Me too.

I think it's kind of sad that one has to rely on AC to achieve acceptable DPS for high-tire end game content.

Yeah sure loosing only the lightattack damage surely makes endgame content impossible to clear.

If you dont like it don't use it. Very simple

I should have specified that I don't really have a problem with light-attack weaving. It's the block canceling I'm not very fond of.

Cpt_Teemo

Woops, nvm

xblackroxe

Martan wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

In a related post I wrote:

I don't think the case here is against being able to cancel the animation of an ability, but against the ability registering the damage despite being cancelled. I agree that one should be able to cancel a channeling or animation to block or get out of the way of unexpected incoming damage instead, but to do that and still register damage is, what I think, is put on trial here.

So I entirely agree with OP.

Me too.

I think it's kind of sad that one has to rely on AC to achieve acceptable DPS for high-tire end game content.

Yeah sure loosing only the lightattack damage surely makes endgame content impossible to clear.

If you dont like it don't use it. Very simple

I should have specified that I don't really have a problem with light-attack weaving. It's the block canceling I'm not very fond of.

Well unless you are blockcasting that doesn't actually help anyways.
And the way mechanics work it just wouldn't make sense to change anything about AC except reverting the god awful changes they made with TG or whenever that was.

Martan

xblackroxe wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

In a related post I wrote:

I don't think the case here is against being able to cancel the animation of an ability, but against the ability registering the damage despite being cancelled. I agree that one should be able to cancel a channeling or animation to block or get out of the way of unexpected incoming damage instead, but to do that and still register damage is, what I think, is put on trial here.

So I entirely agree with OP.

Me too.

I think it's kind of sad that one has to rely on AC to achieve acceptable DPS for high-tire end game content.

Yeah sure loosing only the lightattack damage surely makes endgame content impossible to clear.

If you dont like it don't use it. Very simple

I should have specified that I don't really have a problem with light-attack weaving. It's the block canceling I'm not very fond of.

Well unless you are blockcasting that doesn't actually help anyways.
And the way mechanics work it just wouldn't make sense to change anything about AC except reverting the god awful changes they made with TG or whenever that was.

Really? I've been told that I need to learn to block cast in order to get beyond high-casual level. But if light attack weaving is better then I can't complain.

Edit: Isn't this guy block canceling?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgZjIjG8H5A

Lokey0024

Im reading that the game is so basic that pressing block after attacking is considered "skillful". Not the choice in ability use or positioning. Says almost everything you need to know about ESO in one sentence.

Next thing you will hear is figuring out how to get the double mundus stone and hist bark evasion exploits are "in game lore research" and should be allowed.

xblackroxe

Martan wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

In a related post I wrote:

I don't think the case here is against being able to cancel the animation of an ability, but against the ability registering the damage despite being cancelled. I agree that one should be able to cancel a channeling or animation to block or get out of the way of unexpected incoming damage instead, but to do that and still register damage is, what I think, is put on trial here.

So I entirely agree with OP.

Me too.

I think it's kind of sad that one has to rely on AC to achieve acceptable DPS for high-tire end game content.

Yeah sure loosing only the lightattack damage surely makes endgame content impossible to clear.

If you dont like it don't use it. Very simple

I should have specified that I don't really have a problem with light-attack weaving. It's the block canceling I'm not very fond of.

Well unless you are blockcasting that doesn't actually help anyways.
And the way mechanics work it just wouldn't make sense to change anything about AC except reverting the god awful changes they made with TG or whenever that was.

Really? I've been told that I need to learn to block cast in order to get beyond high-casual level. But if light attack weaving is better then I can't complain.

Edit: Isn't this guy block canceling?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgZjIjG8H5A

Well its not.
Almost every instant cast ability takes a max of one sec till you can clip the animation with a light attack or the animation as over already anyways.

The only place where you might be faster is on ground aoes like endless hail, healing springs, liquid lightning. And here its only might.
So you maybe shave off 0.1-0.2 sec every 10 sec which mean 1-2 fp more every hundred sec. That's absolutely *** nothing.

Ik you see people do it often and yes in this video shes blockcasting some skills. Many people fall into the trap that they see the ability done much faster and think they actually are faster but dismiss that the block animation also takes some time so you effectively gain nothing.

Chilly-McFreeze

I don't care much about it but does the following count as fair PvP gameplay and/or AC:

When I hardcast a Crystal Frag and hold down the attack button, the Frag is hold back until the HA (flame staff) is fully charged, giving me the time to also press the button for e.g. Mage's Wrath - resulting in all 3 attack going off/ hitting at the same time.

There is no use in this for PvE, where I don't think AC is a problem. I still have no problem with when someone else hits me, it's just part of the game, it just feels a bit cheesy to use.

Martan

xblackroxe wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

In a related post I wrote:

I don't think the case here is against being able to cancel the animation of an ability, but against the ability registering the damage despite being cancelled. I agree that one should be able to cancel a channeling or animation to block or get out of the way of unexpected incoming damage instead, but to do that and still register damage is, what I think, is put on trial here.

So I entirely agree with OP.

Me too.

I think it's kind of sad that one has to rely on AC to achieve acceptable DPS for high-tire end game content.

Yeah sure loosing only the lightattack damage surely makes endgame content impossible to clear.

If you dont like it don't use it. Very simple

I should have specified that I don't really have a problem with light-attack weaving. It's the block canceling I'm not very fond of.

Well unless you are blockcasting that doesn't actually help anyways.
And the way mechanics work it just wouldn't make sense to change anything about AC except reverting the god awful changes they made with TG or whenever that was.

Really? I've been told that I need to learn to block cast in order to get beyond high-casual level. But if light attack weaving is better then I can't complain.

Edit: Isn't this guy block canceling?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgZjIjG8H5A

Well its not.
Almost every instant cast ability takes a max of one sec till you can clip the animation with a light attack or the animation as over already anyways.

The only place where you might be faster is on ground aoes like endless hail, healing springs, liquid lightning. And here its only might.
So you maybe shave off 0.1-0.2 sec every 10 sec which mean 1-2 fp more every hundred sec. That's absolutely *** nothing.

Ik you see people do it often and yes in this video shes blockcasting some skills. Many people fall into the trap that they see the ability done much faster and think they actually are faster but dismiss that the block animation also takes some time so you effectively gain nothing.

Thanks for the explanation! Appreciate it.

zaria

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

I don't care much about it but does the following count as fair PvP gameplay and/or AC:

When I hardcast a Crystal Frag and hold down the attack button, the Frag is hold back until the HA (flame staff) is fully charged, giving me the time to also press the button for e.g. Mage's Wrath - resulting in all 3 attack going off/ hitting at the same time.

There is no use in this for PvE, where I don't think AC is a problem. I still have no problem with when someone else hits me, it's just part of the game, it just feels a bit cheesy to use.

Yes, that makes sense, its totally different from the PvE use. Its an way to hit enemy hard at once, you don't save time but you get an huge burst.
in PvE main purpose is to get weave 0.1 second cast time light attacks between other attacks and get fast bar swaps.
Note that some attacks like elemental blockade has no travel time, so it will show up first in combat log.

Magdalina

I gotta say I didn't read all 9 pages, just read through first post and a few of the replies, but every time I see a thread like this, I have a question...why is ani cancelling an issue? I'm genuinely curious. Perhaps it's because I've never really played any other MMOs before, but why do people keep calling it "exploit" as if it's something as bad as a cheat engine? I feel like there's something I'm missing here...

So you can make certain skills perform faster if you weave a light attack/bash in there. Isn't that's awesome, I mean do you really want to sit there all day to wait for the 2-3(okay bit less but still) second animation to play every single time?o.o Weaving crushing shock with light attacks is something I've even discovered all on my own back when running around like a total potato, having never yet set foot in vet dungeons, it just seemed fast an efficient and then lateron I found out that's in fact what people do all over and call it "weaving". And btw I have 200-250 ping normally. Weaving works perfectly fine til ~300 ping I think. After that yeah it gets pretty hard.

It seems like, whether intended or not, it's actually a mechanic that promotes skill rather than mindless button mashing(though in the end it's all button mashing but this one'd be less mindless lol). You gotta know what, when and how to cancel in order to be most efficient. It requires you to pay attention and be fast and precise - and if you are, it makes you a lot stronger. And if you don't wanna bother, then don't bother, ani cancelling isn't needed for any openworld content, just like BiS gear, 600 cp and all that good stuff.