Animation Canceling - My point of view and reflection on the subject

cbaudersub17_ESO

b101uk wrote: »

If only you could get 30 days subscription to ESO by Payment Cancelling, like you can get the full effect of some spells/attacks even though you have cancelled them before they have been fully processed.

Either side of the discusion, that is just funny.

qsnoopyjr

TLDR

If they teach you animation canceling in game, its okay.
Since they do not, it skews data the developers get, and they make things difficult based on the numbers animation cancelers put out.

Hence why in Veteran Dungeons, you have some people that plow through the dungeon, and others who outright are terrible. With no middle ground, because its basically players who know how to do the trick of animation cancelling, and those that never learn it because the game does not teach you how to do this trick.

So these developers will continue to balance, and will continue to ponder why none of their balance is working, and ponder why some people are so bad at Veteran Dungeons while others are so great at them. Due to this imbalance, it makes the group finder system a total joke.

Which the group finder system is right now a total joke, due to fact you can be waiting 40 minutes until you find a group... Even with though the population of the game is healthy. Those people that do the dungeons good, aka know animation canceling, know not to do group finder... While those who are terrible because they lack knowledge of animation canceling, use group finder, and they have bad experiences because Veteran Dungeons have been mis-scaled aka scaled based on people who do animation canceling DPS, rather than those who have no idea it exists therefore terrible DPS and therefore long hours of wiping just to do a simple Veteran Dungeon... Which isnt even a raid or anything of the like.

Long story short,
Sure you need animation canceling, all of there dungeons and trials have been scaled for animation canceling DPS.
You have a population that doesnt know about this trick, and they dont enjoy the game because they cannot put out that DPS.
As everyone says... ESO is nothing but a DPS check.

Options?
Teach people animation canceling so everyone can enjoy game.
Get rid of it, and scale stuff back to normal so everyone can enjoy game.

xblackroxe

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

TLDR

If they teach you animation canceling in game, its okay.
Since they do not, it skews data the developers get, and they make things difficult based on the numbers animation cancelers put out.

Hence why in Veteran Dungeons, you have some people that plow through the dungeon, and others who outright are terrible. With no middle ground, because its basically players who know how to do the trick of animation cancelling, and those that never learn it because the game does not teach you how to do this trick.

So these developers will continue to balance, and will continue to ponder why none of their balance is working, and ponder why some people are so bad at Veteran Dungeons while others are so great at them. Due to this imbalance, it makes the group finder system a total joke.

Which the group finder system is right now a total joke, due to fact you can be waiting 40 minutes until you find a group... Even with though the population of the game is healthy. Those people that do the dungeons good, aka know animation canceling, know not to do group finder... While those who are terrible because they lack knowledge of animation canceling, use group finder, and they have bad experiences because Veteran Dungeons have been mis-scaled aka scaled based on people who do animation canceling DPS, rather than those who have no idea it exists therefore terrible DPS and therefore long hours of wiping just to do a simple Veteran Dungeon... Which isnt even a raid or anything of the like.

Long story short,
Sure you need animation canceling, all of there dungeons and trials have been scaled for animation canceling DPS.
You have a population that doesnt know about this trick, and they dont enjoy the game because they cannot put out that DPS.
As everyone says... ESO is nothing but a DPS check.

Options?
Teach people animation canceling so everyone can enjoy game.
Get rid of it, and scale stuff back to normal so everyone can enjoy game.

This is so wrong.

People aren't bad because they don't AC. They are bad because they don't know mechanics or don't care about mechanics or simple have the reaction time of a lamp.

I have been in enough pugs to clearly see a difference between people that are plain bad and people that just have bad dps.

Xerton

xblackroxe wrote: »

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

TLDR

If they teach you animation canceling in game, its okay.
Since they do not, it skews data the developers get, and they make things difficult based on the numbers animation cancelers put out.

Hence why in Veteran Dungeons, you have some people that plow through the dungeon, and others who outright are terrible. With no middle ground, because its basically players who know how to do the trick of animation cancelling, and those that never learn it because the game does not teach you how to do this trick.

So these developers will continue to balance, and will continue to ponder why none of their balance is working, and ponder why some people are so bad at Veteran Dungeons while others are so great at them. Due to this imbalance, it makes the group finder system a total joke.

Which the group finder system is right now a total joke, due to fact you can be waiting 40 minutes until you find a group... Even with though the population of the game is healthy. Those people that do the dungeons good, aka know animation canceling, know not to do group finder... While those who are terrible because they lack knowledge of animation canceling, use group finder, and they have bad experiences because Veteran Dungeons have been mis-scaled aka scaled based on people who do animation canceling DPS, rather than those who have no idea it exists therefore terrible DPS and therefore long hours of wiping just to do a simple Veteran Dungeon... Which isnt even a raid or anything of the like.

Long story short,
Sure you need animation canceling, all of there dungeons and trials have been scaled for animation canceling DPS.
You have a population that doesnt know about this trick, and they dont enjoy the game because they cannot put out that DPS.
As everyone says... ESO is nothing but a DPS check.

Options?
Teach people animation canceling so everyone can enjoy game.
Get rid of it, and scale stuff back to normal so everyone can enjoy game.

This is so wrong.

People aren't bad because they don't AC. They are bad because they don't know mechanics or don't care about mechanics or simple have the reaction time of a lamp.

I have been in enough pugs to clearly see a difference between people that are plain bad and people that just have bad dps.

But it's so much easier to blame AC for all of it!
Because AC is the reason some people deal 300% mehr dps than others... /sarcasm

xblackroxe

Xerton wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

TLDR

If they teach you animation canceling in game, its okay.
Since they do not, it skews data the developers get, and they make things difficult based on the numbers animation cancelers put out.

Hence why in Veteran Dungeons, you have some people that plow through the dungeon, and others who outright are terrible. With no middle ground, because its basically players who know how to do the trick of animation cancelling, and those that never learn it because the game does not teach you how to do this trick.

So these developers will continue to balance, and will continue to ponder why none of their balance is working, and ponder why some people are so bad at Veteran Dungeons while others are so great at them. Due to this imbalance, it makes the group finder system a total joke.

Which the group finder system is right now a total joke, due to fact you can be waiting 40 minutes until you find a group... Even with though the population of the game is healthy. Those people that do the dungeons good, aka know animation canceling, know not to do group finder... While those who are terrible because they lack knowledge of animation canceling, use group finder, and they have bad experiences because Veteran Dungeons have been mis-scaled aka scaled based on people who do animation canceling DPS, rather than those who have no idea it exists therefore terrible DPS and therefore long hours of wiping just to do a simple Veteran Dungeon... Which isnt even a raid or anything of the like.

Long story short,
Sure you need animation canceling, all of there dungeons and trials have been scaled for animation canceling DPS.
You have a population that doesnt know about this trick, and they dont enjoy the game because they cannot put out that DPS.
As everyone says... ESO is nothing but a DPS check.

Options?
Teach people animation canceling so everyone can enjoy game.
Get rid of it, and scale stuff back to normal so everyone can enjoy game.

This is so wrong.

People aren't bad because they don't AC. They are bad because they don't know mechanics or don't care about mechanics or simple have the reaction time of a lamp.

I have been in enough pugs to clearly see a difference between people that are plain bad and people that just have bad dps.

But it's so much easier to blame AC for all of it!
Because AC is the reason some people deal 300% mehr dps than others... /sarcasm

Yeah its so lovely reading through this thread with all the misinformed people that clearly just jump on the hate train because they don't wanna admit that they are less skilled.

dday3six

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

TLDR

If they teach you animation canceling in game, its okay.
Since they do not, it skews data the developers get, and they make things difficult based on the numbers animation cancelers put out.

Hence why in Veteran Dungeons, you have some people that plow through the dungeon, and others who outright are terrible. With no middle ground, because its basically players who know how to do the trick of animation cancelling, and those that never learn it because the game does not teach you how to do this trick.

So these developers will continue to balance, and will continue to ponder why none of their balance is working, and ponder why some people are so bad at Veteran Dungeons while others are so great at them. Due to this imbalance, it makes the group finder system a total joke.

Which the group finder system is right now a total joke, due to fact you can be waiting 40 minutes until you find a group... Even with though the population of the game is healthy. Those people that do the dungeons good, aka know animation canceling, know not to do group finder... While those who are terrible because they lack knowledge of animation canceling, use group finder, and they have bad experiences because Veteran Dungeons have been mis-scaled aka scaled based on people who do animation canceling DPS, rather than those who have no idea it exists therefore terrible DPS and therefore long hours of wiping just to do a simple Veteran Dungeon... Which isnt even a raid or anything of the like.

Long story short,
Sure you need animation canceling, all of there dungeons and trials have been scaled for animation canceling DPS.
You have a population that doesnt know about this trick, and they dont enjoy the game because they cannot put out that DPS.
As everyone says... ESO is nothing but a DPS check.

Options?
Teach people animation canceling so everyone can enjoy game.
Get rid of it, and scale stuff back to normal so everyone can enjoy game.

There comes a point in time when ZOS just has to let players be free to make their own mistakes. They cannot be reasonably expected to always hold every player's hand as they venture through the game. If anything I'd rather the tutorial and early game be revamped to explain roles, and how weapons help to shape them.

That said there will always be depths to a game that the tutorials simply cannot cover, or cannot cover well enough that everyone gets a firm grasp on them. The plain concept of a rotation is not covered in the tutorial either. In my experience it's not AC that lends to players lacking DPS, but rather lacking familiarity with the concept of a rotation. The majority of players in ESO come from a gaming history absent of that concept. Then ZOS didn't help by withholding combat info in the beginning.

Zyrudin

dday3six wrote: »

There comes a point in time when ZOS just has to let players be free to make their own mistakes. They cannot be reasonably expected to always hold every player's hand as they venture through the game. If anything I'd rather the tutorial and early game be revamped to explain roles, and how weapons help to shape them.

That said there will always be depths to a game that the tutorials simply cannot cover, or cannot cover well enough that everyone gets a firm grasp on them. The plain concept of a rotation is not covered in the tutorial either. In my experience it's not AC that lends to players lacking DPS, but rather lacking familiarity with the concept of a rotation. The majority of players in ESO come from a gaming history absent of that concept. Then ZOS didn't help by withholding combat info in the beginning.

I agree with early tutorials and with the fact that there will always be good players and bad players, those who dig deeper into the game's concepts and other that always remain at the surface. That has nothing to do with AC.
The argument is that AC is a fault in the game's design, because it allows the registration of an effect without the cause being completed. Interruption should be possible, but on an either / or basis: either the damage or the cancelling/block/dodge, never both.

zaria

Xerton wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

TLDR

If they teach you animation canceling in game, its okay.
Since they do not, it skews data the developers get, and they make things difficult based on the numbers animation cancelers put out.

Hence why in Veteran Dungeons, you have some people that plow through the dungeon, and others who outright are terrible. With no middle ground, because its basically players who know how to do the trick of animation cancelling, and those that never learn it because the game does not teach you how to do this trick.

So these developers will continue to balance, and will continue to ponder why none of their balance is working, and ponder why some people are so bad at Veteran Dungeons while others are so great at them. Due to this imbalance, it makes the group finder system a total joke.

Which the group finder system is right now a total joke, due to fact you can be waiting 40 minutes until you find a group... Even with though the population of the game is healthy. Those people that do the dungeons good, aka know animation canceling, know not to do group finder... While those who are terrible because they lack knowledge of animation canceling, use group finder, and they have bad experiences because Veteran Dungeons have been mis-scaled aka scaled based on people who do animation canceling DPS, rather than those who have no idea it exists therefore terrible DPS and therefore long hours of wiping just to do a simple Veteran Dungeon... Which isnt even a raid or anything of the like.

Long story short,
Sure you need animation canceling, all of there dungeons and trials have been scaled for animation canceling DPS.
You have a population that doesnt know about this trick, and they dont enjoy the game because they cannot put out that DPS.
As everyone says... ESO is nothing but a DPS check.

Options?
Teach people animation canceling so everyone can enjoy game.
Get rid of it, and scale stuff back to normal so everyone can enjoy game.

This is so wrong.

People aren't bad because they don't AC. They are bad because they don't know mechanics or don't care about mechanics or simple have the reaction time of a lamp.

I have been in enough pugs to clearly see a difference between people that are plain bad and people that just have bad dps.

But it's so much easier to blame AC for all of it!
Because AC is the reason some people deal 300% mehr dps than others... /sarcasm

This, I went from being a bad sorcerer, not horrible as in spamming crystal shard but still.

Got some help here and read a bit about builds and gear, start using surge, using it and AoE DoT on back bar, things got much easier, even better because of the heal from surge groups of mob stopped being an problem.

Still not much animation canceling. More scared that the full sorcerer rotation might be to hard to do well.
Has to buy an target dummy for training, trolls and other don't work well for an full boss rotation even less for resource management.

Good players know that skills to use and has an good rotation, bad does not, good players also use animation canceling.

Ermiq

zaria wrote: »

Xerton wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

TLDR

If they teach you animation canceling in game, its okay.
Since they do not, it skews data the developers get, and they make things difficult based on the numbers animation cancelers put out.

Hence why in Veteran Dungeons, you have some people that plow through the dungeon, and others who outright are terrible. With no middle ground, because its basically players who know how to do the trick of animation cancelling, and those that never learn it because the game does not teach you how to do this trick.

So these developers will continue to balance, and will continue to ponder why none of their balance is working, and ponder why some people are so bad at Veteran Dungeons while others are so great at them. Due to this imbalance, it makes the group finder system a total joke.

Which the group finder system is right now a total joke, due to fact you can be waiting 40 minutes until you find a group... Even with though the population of the game is healthy. Those people that do the dungeons good, aka know animation canceling, know not to do group finder... While those who are terrible because they lack knowledge of animation canceling, use group finder, and they have bad experiences because Veteran Dungeons have been mis-scaled aka scaled based on people who do animation canceling DPS, rather than those who have no idea it exists therefore terrible DPS and therefore long hours of wiping just to do a simple Veteran Dungeon... Which isnt even a raid or anything of the like.

Long story short,
Sure you need animation canceling, all of there dungeons and trials have been scaled for animation canceling DPS.
You have a population that doesnt know about this trick, and they dont enjoy the game because they cannot put out that DPS.
As everyone says... ESO is nothing but a DPS check.

Options?
Teach people animation canceling so everyone can enjoy game.
Get rid of it, and scale stuff back to normal so everyone can enjoy game.

This is so wrong.

People aren't bad because they don't AC. They are bad because they don't know mechanics or don't care about mechanics or simple have the reaction time of a lamp.

I have been in enough pugs to clearly see a difference between people that are plain bad and people that just have bad dps.

But it's so much easier to blame AC for all of it!
Because AC is the reason some people deal 300% mehr dps than others... /sarcasm

This, I went from being a bad sorcerer, not horrible as in spamming crystal shard but still.

Got some help here and read a bit about builds and gear, start using surge, using it and AoE DoT on back bar, things got much easier, even better because of the heal from surge groups of mob stopped being an problem.

Still not much animation canceling. More scared that the full sorcerer rotation might be to hard to do well.
Has to buy an target dummy for training, trolls and other don't work well for an full boss rotation even less for resource management.

Good players know that skills to use and has an good rotation, bad does not, good players also use animation canceling.

I have a question: are there a good players who do not use AC?

jaye63

#1. ZOS has said do it
#2. Unless you wanna give me the money I paid for the game and my ESO+ sub ... you play your way and I'll play mine.

Im so tired of people who say you gotta play this way or you cant play that way. If ZOS says ok, it's ok and your opinion of some one else's gameplay is not needed or wanted. I watch some a**hat run a friend of mine out of the game. He told my friend *pick these skills* and so my friend did. But he wasn't practiced in those skills so when it went bad, he berated my friend until he left. Left the game. Quit playing ESO. So sick of people who think there's only one way to play and force others to play that way or they arent welcomed. Im just awnry enough that when some one tells me what to do I refer to item #2 above and finish it off with, "And if you dont like that Im gonna play my way... leave the group."

Im old enough to be the dad of most of the people in the group. I've played PC games since before hard drives, I spent my money and I'll play how I dam well please. (within the rules of the game- I dont exploit or cheat). And animation canceling is allowed so shut up about it.

dday3six

Zyrudin wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

There comes a point in time when ZOS just has to let players be free to make their own mistakes. They cannot be reasonably expected to always hold every player's hand as they venture through the game. If anything I'd rather the tutorial and early game be revamped to explain roles, and how weapons help to shape them.

That said there will always be depths to a game that the tutorials simply cannot cover, or cannot cover well enough that everyone gets a firm grasp on them. The plain concept of a rotation is not covered in the tutorial either. In my experience it's not AC that lends to players lacking DPS, but rather lacking familiarity with the concept of a rotation. The majority of players in ESO come from a gaming history absent of that concept. Then ZOS didn't help by withholding combat info in the beginning.

I agree with early tutorials and with the fact that there will always be good players and bad players, those who dig deeper into the game's concepts and other that always remain at the surface. That has nothing to do with AC.
The argument is that AC is a fault in the game's design, because it allows the registration of an effect without the cause being completed. Interruption should be possible, but on an either / or basis: either the damage or the cancelling/block/dodge, never both.

Instant abilities are just that, instantaneous, and are the only skills that can be canceled via another non-skill action (block, dodge, bash) while damage is still applied. The animation is just for flashy looking combat, not telegraphy. Most player initiated attacks don't need to make direct physical contact with the character models, rather the space of their invisible hit box occupies, which is much larger than the actual character model.

Most single target damage dealing skills cannot be used without a target in range, and the ranges nearly never match the animation as to how far the skill or light/heavy attack looks to reach, opposed to how far it does. Particularly in melee (7m or less) range. Range is also disconnected from the physical length of a weapon in game. Daggers have the same range as two-handed sword. Combat in general, but particularly in PVP, is about positioning much more than directly reacting to the animation of actions.

Zyrudin

jaye63 wrote: »

#1. ZOS has said do it
#2. Unless you wanna give me the money I paid for the game and my ESO+ sub ... you play your way and I'll play mine.

Im so tired of people who say you gotta play this way or you cant play that way. If ZOS says ok, it's ok and your opinion of some one else's gameplay is not needed or wanted. I watch some a**hat run a friend of mine out of the game. He told my friend *pick these skills* and so my friend did. But he wasn't practiced in those skills so when it went bad, he berated my friend until he left. Left the game. Quit playing ESO. So sick of people who think there's only one way to play and force others to play that way or they arent welcomed. Im just awnry enough that when some one tells me what to do I refer to item #2 above and finish it off with, "And if you dont like that Im gonna play my way... leave the group."

Im old enough to be the dad of most of the people in the group. I've played PC games since before hard drives, I spent my money and I'll play how I dam well please. (within the rules of the game- I dont exploit or cheat). And animation canceling is allowed so shut up about it.

You certainly have the right to play whichever way you want to and nobody has the right to tell you otherwise. I have seen nobody in this thread telling people how they should play.
This thread is, from what I gathered by the OP, directed at ZOS and their developers, not you, me or other players.
The way you or any other player likes to play, with or without AC, is not the point of the discussion nor should it ever be.

The point here is questioning the ability to register an effect without having a full corresponding graphical movement, while at the same time benefiting from multiple other actions that can be fit into that window (such as blocking or another ability).

The aim of the discussion is to present reasons for ZOS to consider a change in that regard.

Zyrudin

dday3six wrote: »

Instant abilities are just that, instantaneous, and are the only skills that can be canceled via another non-skill action (block, dodge, bash) while damage is still applied. The animation is just for flashy looking combat, not telegraphy. Most player initiated attacks don't need to make direct physical contact with the character models, rather the space of their invisible hit box occupies, which is much larger than the actual character model.

Most single target damage dealing skills cannot be used without a target in range, and the ranges nearly never match the animation as to how far the skill or light/heavy attack looks to reach, opposed to how far it does. Particularly in melee (7m or less) range. Range is also disconnected from the physical length of a weapon in game. Daggers have the same range as two-handed sword. Combat in general, but particularly in PVP, is about positioning much more than directly reacting to the animation of actions.

Thanks for the insight. I know and understand. That is why there should be no instant abilities.

If an animation takes even 0.1 second then the cast time should be 0.1 as well, but having the ability to be interrupted at the cost of the abilities effect. The resource should also only be spent after the animation is finished and therefore the last window of opportunity for cancelling the skill has passed. This is to prevent multiple actions to be fit into the time of one.

dday3six

Zyrudin wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

#1. ZOS has said do it
#2. Unless you wanna give me the money I paid for the game and my ESO+ sub ... you play your way and I'll play mine.

Im so tired of people who say you gotta play this way or you cant play that way. If ZOS says ok, it's ok and your opinion of some one else's gameplay is not needed or wanted. I watch some a**hat run a friend of mine out of the game. He told my friend *pick these skills* and so my friend did. But he wasn't practiced in those skills so when it went bad, he berated my friend until he left. Left the game. Quit playing ESO. So sick of people who think there's only one way to play and force others to play that way or they arent welcomed. Im just awnry enough that when some one tells me what to do I refer to item #2 above and finish it off with, "And if you dont like that Im gonna play my way... leave the group."

Im old enough to be the dad of most of the people in the group. I've played PC games since before hard drives, I spent my money and I'll play how I dam well please. (within the rules of the game- I dont exploit or cheat). And animation canceling is allowed so shut up about it.

You certainly have the right to play whichever way you want to and nobody has the right to tell you otherwise. I have seen nobody in this thread telling people how they should play.
This thread is, from what I gathered by the OP, directed at ZOS and their developers, not you, me or other players.
The way you or any other player likes to play, with or without AC, is not the point of the discussion nor should it ever be.

The point here is questioning the ability to register an effect without having a full corresponding graphical movement, while at the same time benefiting from multiple other actions that can be fit into that window (such as blocking or another ability).

The aim of the discussion is to present reasons for ZOS to consider a change in that regard.

You cannot AC one ability into another. All abilities, even instant ones, have a 0.9s global cool down and canceling the animation cannot bypass it.

dday3six

Zyrudin wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Instant abilities are just that, instantaneous, and are the only skills that can be canceled via another non-skill action (block, dodge, bash) while damage is still applied. The animation is just for flashy looking combat, not telegraphy. Most player initiated attacks don't need to make direct physical contact with the character models, rather the space of their invisible hit box occupies, which is much larger than the actual character model.

Most single target damage dealing skills cannot be used without a target in range, and the ranges nearly never match the animation as to how far the skill or light/heavy attack looks to reach, opposed to how far it does. Particularly in melee (7m or less) range. Range is also disconnected from the physical length of a weapon in game. Daggers have the same range as two-handed sword. Combat in general, but particularly in PVP, is about positioning much more than directly reacting to the animation of actions.

Thanks for the insight. I know and understand. That is why there should be no instant abilities.

If an animation takes even 0.1 second then the cast time should be 0.1 as well, but having the ability to be interrupted at the cost of the abilities effect. The resource should also only be spent after the animation is finished and therefore the last window of opportunity for cancelling the skill has passed. This is to prevent multiple actions to be fit into the time of one.

I'll just repeat what I stated earlier. There is a global cool down of 0.9s. During this time no other abilities can be used. You cannot animation cancel one ability into the another. This is why people become so heated over animation canceling the amount of misinformation continually spread is staggering.

Zyrudin

dday3six wrote: »

You cannot AC one ability into another. All abilities, even instant ones, have a 0.9s global cool down and canceling the animation cannot bypass it.

You can light attack in between and even swap bars and continue to fit a whole string that will only show one or two quick visual queues.

dday3six

Zyrudin wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

You cannot AC one ability into another. All abilities, even instant ones, have a 0.9s global cool down and canceling the animation cannot bypass it.

You can light attack in between and even swap bars and continue to fit a whole string that will only show one or two quick visual queues.

Yes you can attack weave, or swap cancel. However actions cannot be made completely invisible. Further if an opposing player is standing in attack range do you truly require direct visual queues to know the unlikelihood that they are not attacking you?

Again I'll stress, PVP is not merely condensable to standing in front of your opponent/s and trading blows. The need for out spacing and repoistioning is ever present.

Merlin13KAGL

I'd just be happy if they'd change skills to fire on key press, not key release.

That feels far more odd to me than AC ever has.

Bladerunner1

Most people think of DPS and PVP when they discuss animation cancelling, but try blocking after initiating a heroic slash on S&B bar. I couldn't block many devastating boss attacks because my character was too busy dipping and swinging very slowly.

It doesn't seem right that my character can launch a volley of arrows in the blink of an eye but can't stop from swinging a sword for a split second to lift a shield.

After playing DPS Nightblade for a long time, switching to S&B was really annoying because of the slow actions, the overall timing of a tank is completely different and infuriating to someone who's been cranking out 1 second skill cycles.

Shunravi

Zyrudin wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Ever seen the Samurai swordplay? Real life AC in all it's beauty.

Real life sword-fighting will not register damage if the movement is cancelled.

In real life swordplay you do not return back all the way to your base stance every single action.

jaye63

Zyrudin wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

#1. ZOS has said do it
#2. Unless you wanna give me the money I paid for the game and my ESO+ sub ... you play your way and I'll play mine.

Im so tired of people who say you gotta play this way or you cant play that way. If ZOS says ok, it's ok and your opinion of some one else's gameplay is not needed or wanted. I watch some a**hat run a friend of mine out of the game. He told my friend *pick these skills* and so my friend did. But he wasn't practiced in those skills so when it went bad, he berated my friend until he left. Left the game. Quit playing ESO. So sick of people who think there's only one way to play and force others to play that way or they arent welcomed. Im just awnry enough that when some one tells me what to do I refer to item #2 above and finish it off with, "And if you dont like that Im gonna play my way... leave the group."

Im old enough to be the dad of most of the people in the group. I've played PC games since before hard drives, I spent my money and I'll play how I dam well please. (within the rules of the game- I dont exploit or cheat). And animation canceling is allowed so shut up about it.

You certainly have the right to play whichever way you want to and nobody has the right to tell you otherwise. I have seen nobody in this thread telling people how they should play.
This thread is, from what I gathered by the OP, directed at ZOS and their developers, not you, me or other players.
The way you or any other player likes to play, with or without AC, is not the point of the discussion nor should it ever be.

The point here is questioning the ability to register an effect without having a full corresponding graphical movement, while at the same time benefiting from multiple other actions that can be fit into that window (such as blocking or another ability).

The aim of the discussion is to present reasons for ZOS to consider a change in that regard.

The whole idea that animation canceling is wrong or cheating IS telling people how to play. ZOS says it's ok, then it's ok. I dont do it because I just dont want to. I see the benefit of doing it and will probably use it in raids because not using it would gimp my toon against the NPCs. But the whole discussion reeks of condemnation of something ZOS has already said is just another mechanic of the game. (probably because they cant figure out how to code it to stop it... but that's an opinion). Hence the reason for my op. Discussion of it like it is or needs to be changed is a pointless discussion that smacks of *I cant do it so nobody should be able to* IMHO.

cjthibs

jaye63 wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

#1. ZOS has said do it
#2. Unless you wanna give me the money I paid for the game and my ESO+ sub ... you play your way and I'll play mine.

Im so tired of people who say you gotta play this way or you cant play that way. If ZOS says ok, it's ok and your opinion of some one else's gameplay is not needed or wanted. I watch some a**hat run a friend of mine out of the game. He told my friend *pick these skills* and so my friend did. But he wasn't practiced in those skills so when it went bad, he berated my friend until he left. Left the game. Quit playing ESO. So sick of people who think there's only one way to play and force others to play that way or they arent welcomed. Im just awnry enough that when some one tells me what to do I refer to item #2 above and finish it off with, "And if you dont like that Im gonna play my way... leave the group."

Im old enough to be the dad of most of the people in the group. I've played PC games since before hard drives, I spent my money and I'll play how I dam well please. (within the rules of the game- I dont exploit or cheat). And animation canceling is allowed so shut up about it.

You certainly have the right to play whichever way you want to and nobody has the right to tell you otherwise. I have seen nobody in this thread telling people how they should play.
This thread is, from what I gathered by the OP, directed at ZOS and their developers, not you, me or other players.
The way you or any other player likes to play, with or without AC, is not the point of the discussion nor should it ever be.

The point here is questioning the ability to register an effect without having a full corresponding graphical movement, while at the same time benefiting from multiple other actions that can be fit into that window (such as blocking or another ability).

The aim of the discussion is to present reasons for ZOS to consider a change in that regard.

The whole idea that animation canceling is wrong or cheating IS telling people how to play. ZOS says it's ok, then it's ok. I dont do it because I just dont want to. I see the benefit of doing it and will probably use it in raids because not using it would gimp my toon against the NPCs. But the whole discussion reeks of condemnation of something ZOS has already said is just another mechanic of the game. (probably because they cant figure out how to code it to stop it... but that's an opinion). Hence the reason for my op. Discussion of it like it is or needs to be changed is a pointless discussion that smacks of *I cant do it so nobody should be able to* IMHO.

I think more people have issues with it not making any sense, being visually jarring, giving an advantage to those with higher pings, and taking a lot of the visual cues out of the game. Most people don't consider it cheating.

xblackroxe

cjthibs wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

#1. ZOS has said do it
#2. Unless you wanna give me the money I paid for the game and my ESO+ sub ... you play your way and I'll play mine.

Im so tired of people who say you gotta play this way or you cant play that way. If ZOS says ok, it's ok and your opinion of some one else's gameplay is not needed or wanted. I watch some a**hat run a friend of mine out of the game. He told my friend *pick these skills* and so my friend did. But he wasn't practiced in those skills so when it went bad, he berated my friend until he left. Left the game. Quit playing ESO. So sick of people who think there's only one way to play and force others to play that way or they arent welcomed. Im just awnry enough that when some one tells me what to do I refer to item #2 above and finish it off with, "And if you dont like that Im gonna play my way... leave the group."

Im old enough to be the dad of most of the people in the group. I've played PC games since before hard drives, I spent my money and I'll play how I dam well please. (within the rules of the game- I dont exploit or cheat). And animation canceling is allowed so shut up about it.

You certainly have the right to play whichever way you want to and nobody has the right to tell you otherwise. I have seen nobody in this thread telling people how they should play.
This thread is, from what I gathered by the OP, directed at ZOS and their developers, not you, me or other players.
The way you or any other player likes to play, with or without AC, is not the point of the discussion nor should it ever be.

The point here is questioning the ability to register an effect without having a full corresponding graphical movement, while at the same time benefiting from multiple other actions that can be fit into that window (such as blocking or another ability).

The aim of the discussion is to present reasons for ZOS to consider a change in that regard.

The whole idea that animation canceling is wrong or cheating IS telling people how to play. ZOS says it's ok, then it's ok. I dont do it because I just dont want to. I see the benefit of doing it and will probably use it in raids because not using it would gimp my toon against the NPCs. But the whole discussion reeks of condemnation of something ZOS has already said is just another mechanic of the game. (probably because they cant figure out how to code it to stop it... but that's an opinion). Hence the reason for my op. Discussion of it like it is or needs to be changed is a pointless discussion that smacks of *I cant do it so nobody should be able to* IMHO.

I think more people have issues with it not making any sense, being visually jarring, giving an advantage to those with higher pings, and taking a lot of the visual cues out of the game. Most people don't consider it cheating.

Well its a video game in a fantasy setting. Many things dont acually make sense. And people that care so much about the visual appeal of the game can just not use it.

Also people with higher ping will always be at a disadvantage no matter if there is ACing or not.

zaria

dday3six wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

You cannot AC one ability into another. All abilities, even instant ones, have a 0.9s global cool down and canceling the animation cannot bypass it.

You can light attack in between and even swap bars and continue to fit a whole string that will only show one or two quick visual queues.

Yes you can attack weave, or swap cancel. However actions cannot be made completely invisible. Further if an opposing player is standing in attack range do you truly require direct visual queues to know the unlikelihood that they are not attacking you?

Again I'll stress, PVP is not merely condensable to standing in front of your opponent/s and trading blows. The need for out spacing and repoistioning is ever present.

This, you can do light attack pretty much for free, you can also do block/ bash and weapon swap for free as you don't have to do the ability animation you would get if you followed an ability with light attack or another ability.

Now if you could cancel an ability animation with an light attack and that with an new ability you would have an insane rate of fire only limited in how fast you could push buttons.

Shardaxx

I can't believe this is even a debate. Animation cancelling is stupid and annoying! For those people saying they should be able to cancel an animation and switch to block or another move, this would be fine but that's not what happens because your original move, the one you cancel, still fires and does damage! It's just a cheap trick to create massive burst damage as you can pull off multiple moves in a fraction of the time they are supposed to take to do!!

It's too bad AC is in the game, it sucks to fight a master of it. It's clearly not how the moves are supposed to behave, I just wish ZOS could fix it but clearly they can't.

Shunravi

Zyrudin wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

#1. ZOS has said do it
#2. Unless you wanna give me the money I paid for the game and my ESO+ sub ... you play your way and I'll play mine.

Im so tired of people who say you gotta play this way or you cant play that way. If ZOS says ok, it's ok and your opinion of some one else's gameplay is not needed or wanted. I watch some a**hat run a friend of mine out of the game. He told my friend *pick these skills* and so my friend did. But he wasn't practiced in those skills so when it went bad, he berated my friend until he left. Left the game. Quit playing ESO. So sick of people who think there's only one way to play and force others to play that way or they arent welcomed. Im just awnry enough that when some one tells me what to do I refer to item #2 above and finish it off with, "And if you dont like that Im gonna play my way... leave the group."

Im old enough to be the dad of most of the people in the group. I've played PC games since before hard drives, I spent my money and I'll play how I dam well please. (within the rules of the game- I dont exploit or cheat). And animation canceling is allowed so shut up about it.

You certainly have the right to play whichever way you want to and nobody has the right to tell you otherwise. I have seen nobody in this thread telling people how they should play.
This thread is, from what I gathered by the OP, directed at ZOS and their developers, not you, me or other players.
The way you or any other player likes to play, with or without AC, is not the point of the discussion nor should it ever be.

The point here is questioning the ability to register an effect without having a full corresponding graphical movement, while at the same time benefiting from multiple other actions that can be fit into that window (such as blocking or another ability).

The aim of the discussion is to present reasons for ZOS to consider a change in that regard.

In real life swordplay i can extend my blade for a thrust, immediately transition to a slash/cut, and then position to block/parry. Thats three actions. Lests say a light attack, a skill, and a block. With one long sword. Thats three actions in under a second. I do not wait for my "thrust animation" to finish and only use another attack after i have come back to my centered stance. And the slash doesnt look like a slash, it looks like i was moving to my block/parry.

If i was using a light onehanded sword, there is a very real chance i would have something in my offhand like a dagger, buckler, or shield, and everything above will still apply. With the added bonus of that offhand tool not simply sitting there waiting for my attacks to finish, but also actively blocking themselves. If i can knock an oponents sword hand with my buckler to throw his attack of and allow for mine to more easily connect, you can bet i will be leaving a bruise (damage) or outright stabbing his sword arm with my bash.

For people who want things realistic, animation canceling is far more realistic than alowing skills to finish.

Shunravi

Shardaxx wrote: »

I can't believe this is even a debate. Animation cancelling is stupid and annoying! For those people saying they should be able to cancel an animation and switch to block or another move, this would be fine but that's not what happens because your original move, the one you cancel, still fires and does damage! It's just a cheap trick to create massive burst damage as you can pull off multiple moves in a fraction of the time they are supposed to take to do!!

It's too bad AC is in the game, it sucks to fight a master of it. It's clearly not how the moves are supposed to behave, I just wish ZOS could fix it but clearly they can't.

The combat in this game works just like real life.

Zyrudin

Shunravi wrote: »

In real life swordplay you do not return back all the way to your base stance every single action.

I wasn't the one who brought up that comparison.

cjthibs

Shunravi wrote: »

Shardaxx wrote: »

I can't believe this is even a debate. Animation cancelling is stupid and annoying! For those people saying they should be able to cancel an animation and switch to block or another move, this would be fine but that's not what happens because your original move, the one you cancel, still fires and does damage! It's just a cheap trick to create massive burst damage as you can pull off multiple moves in a fraction of the time they are supposed to take to do!!

It's too bad AC is in the game, it sucks to fight a master of it. It's clearly not how the moves are supposed to behave, I just wish ZOS could fix it but clearly they can't.

The combat in this game works just like real life.

Yes....especially all the elemental magic and daedra summoning.

Zyrudin

jaye63 wrote: »

The whole idea that animation canceling is wrong or cheating IS telling people how to play. ZOS says it's ok, then it's ok. I dont do it because I just dont want to. I see the benefit of doing it and will probably use it in raids because not using it would gimp my toon against the NPCs. But the whole discussion reeks of condemnation of something ZOS has already said is just another mechanic of the game. (probably because they cant figure out how to code it to stop it... but that's an opinion). Hence the reason for my op. Discussion of it like it is or needs to be changed is a pointless discussion that smacks of *I cant do it so nobody should be able to* IMHO.

I respectfully disagree with the part in bold, particularly. People can discuss things and that will force nobody to anything.

We can create a thread discussing various diets and that will be forcing no-one to change theirs. The people in that discussion can certainly, nevertheless, suggest to the chef (ZOS) the changes they feel would be for the better.