Animation Canceling - My point of view and reflection on the subject

Betahkiin

Hello everyone, I would like to present my point of view in relation to the AC trying to explain why without falling into aggressions and ending with a personal reflection.

The game needs the AC?

Yes.

Why?

Because it is well known that many skills have prolonged animations and not being able to cancel them would be impossible to avoid certain mechanics of the game, such as block or interrupt at the right time.

Being trapped in an animation when it is necessary to block an attack or interrupt an enemy action would be catastrophic for the flow of the game and would make these skills lose their true usefulness: being used at the right time in a precise situation and which depends on little reaction time.

In this regard I totally agree with those who support that it is a fundamental part of the game and should not be eliminated.

The problem is that it was poorly implemented and does not work as it should, not only fulfills its basic function but its application is filtered to the central core of the game mechanics which should not be modified and this is the problem.

To achieve an adequate balance the game needs diversity, but clearly defined in theory and practice. This means that each and every one of the actions must have a specification of how they work, such as scope, effect, duration, launch type (instantaneous or channeled and channeled how long it takes), what kind of bonuses can receive, etc.

These values ​​can not be subjective, If this happens they lose their essence and the game becomes an uncontrollable chaos creating an unwanted imbalance.

The skill of a player must fall into knowing as when and where to use a skill or set of skills and not how to alter them in their function of origin.

The solution to this problem would be to maintain the basic function of the AC without interfering with the correct use of the skills.

What I mean by this?

That if a player is throwing a skill with an extended animation and needs to cancel it to block or interrupt that he can effectively do it and CANCEL that ability while running to give PRIORITY to his new skill executed. But not only cancel the animation as it currently happens but completely cancel the initial ability because it has a basic form of execution and its interruption should completely eliminate its effect since it was intentionally CANCELED.

To be understood:

The battery of a cell phone X according to the manufacturer's SPECIFICATIONS takes 1 hour to perform its load at 100%.

User A: leaves charging the cell X for 1 hour and obtains 100% of the charge.

User B: leave loading the cell X and at 20 minutes CANCEL the process and get 100% of the load.

Is clear

It is impossible, it should not happen since the specifications are clear and both users use the same type of cell phone and charger. User B has more skill than A? I do not think so.

In the game the same happens, we were given clear specifications of how each skill works, then realized that certain users could CHANGE those specifications in their favor (ABUSE FOR ERROR PROGRAMMING) and had no better idea than to argue that it was Totally worth doing, ergo, do not know how to fix it or find it much easier and economical not to do it.

So I want to make it clear that you do not have to be against the AC, you have to be in that its use affects the bases of the game going beyond its basic function is to CANCEL animations and not ACCELERATE skills.

The animations are part of a skill, they were conceived to represent the EXECUTION of the same and their cancellation should lead to the cancellation of the skill itself and not to its acceleration.

Available Options:

A Modify the programming so that the AC only CANCEL (and do it completely).

B Make all skills instant.

C Leave everything as it is maintaining an unfair game condition that suits the company, satisfies a certain niche of players who like this type of exploitation of the game mechanics and harms a large majority that for being called casual have to accept that something that was poorly conceived is officially presented to the community as a challenge to the skill that enriches the game and makes it more interesting.

Unfortunately I think that we are already in the fixed course of option C and after being officially accepted I do not think it can be modified.

For those users who use it to their advantage I want to tell them that I have nothing against them, they simply make use of something that is beneficial and was officially allowed.

For those who do not accept this game mechanics and do not use it because they do not want / can do it I want to tell them that unfortunately it is something with which one has to learn to live together if one wants to continue playing.

For the company to simply tell them that it is a pity that they have chosen to endorse this type of practices in an official way, although I do not share the decision I understand why they did it but it is still something that bothers them and takes away credibility from a large part of this community that expected a more realistic response to something that is obvious to them that should not happen.

Greetings.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

There's that one guy who calls anyone who animation cancels a "cheater/exploiter".

Wonder if he'll show up...

Vapirko

I neither hate it nor love it. It just is. Though I do often think that it is kind of silly. Shouldn't skills function and the game be designed in a way where AC isn't necessary? Why should an exploit be required to deal with content? All said and done I think I would prefer no AC, I think it would even out playing styles more.

HatchetHaro

There's a different angle we can look at this from, however.

Let's use, say, Snipe, for instance. The entire animation consists of charging up the shot, the moment of firing the shot, and after firing the shot. By your logic, if you cancel the animation right after the moment you fired the shot, the arrow should magically fly back to your hand.

Just... no. It makes no sense.

An animation should be able to be canceled after the point of action has been performed without reverting the effects of that action.

That's how weaving and animation cancelling works; you don't wait for your sword swing to stop completely before you attempt another swing from your combat stance; you chain them together in a flurry of attacks.

Betahkiin

Beandre wrote: »

I neither hate it nor love it. It just is. Though I do often think that it is kind of silly. Shouldn't skills function and the game be designed in a way where AC isn't necessary? Why should an exploit be required to deal with content? All said and done I think I would prefer no AC, I think it would even out playing styles more.

AC is needed to interrupt animations when it is necessary to execute another skill, for example block or interrupt.

The point is that if in the middle of a battle one intentionally decides to cancel a skill that requires a channelization or that was conceived to execute with a specific animation it should effectively cancel and not accelerate its execution, this breaks the game system as it was conceived by making a skill that requires time to be executed to be carried out completely in much less time.

This is to deliberately break the basis of the execution of a skill.

Neither do I agree, but it was officially recognized as something valid so those who use it intentionally for their own benefit can not be beaten for doing so.

At the moment it is only possible to learn to use this benefit or accept the disadvantage of not doing so.

What if this is clear is that it is not necessary to generate conflict between the community through aggressions or disqualifications.

DHale

Why have a commentary about something already in game and isn't going anywhere? I say we talk about something more pressing... there is ice in Antarctica.

Betahkiin

HatchetHaro wrote: »

There's a different angle we can look at this from, however.

Let's use, say, Snipe, for instance. The entire animation consists of charging up the shot, the moment of firing the shot, and after firing the shot. By your logic, if you cancel the animation right after the moment you fired the shot, the arrow should magically fly back to your hand.

Just... no. It makes no sense.

An animation should be able to be canceled after the point of action has been performed without reverting the effects of that action.

That's how weaving and animation cancelling works; you don't wait for your sword swing to stop completely before you attempt another swing from your combat stance; you chain them together in a flurry of attacks.

The way in which the AC is currently used leads to execute a skill at 100% in a fraction of its real time and not almost at the end of its execution.

There are skills that come to launch without even seeing the beginning of their actual animation.

On the other hand, it could also be implemented that the effective% of the skill will be calculated depending on when it was canceled, the closer to the end of execution, the more effective it is, the closer to its inception, the less effective.

Betahkiin

DHale wrote: »

Why have a commentary about something already in game and isn't going anywhere? I say we talk about something more pressing... there is ice in Antarctica.

Is not the forum to talk about things that are in the game?

I also wanted to share my opinion from another perspective, where the disagreement and the acceptance of a reality are found in a constructive and respectful way.

Johngo0036

I sit with latency of around 250,

It is very difficult to animation cancel with this kind of latency,
Even @Alcast mentioned it in one of his youtube videos when connecting to the PTS.

I therefore feel that guys with lower ping have a massive advantage when it comes to animation cancelling,
especially in PVP...

I ran into @Alcast once in pvp and he wrecked me in less than a second... lol...
Animation cancelling is a beast when done correctly but with higher latency it becomes near impossible.

Xerton

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I sit with latency of around 250,

It is very difficult to animation cancel with this kind of latency,
Even @Alcast mentioned it in one of his youtube videos when connecting to the PTS.

I therefore feel that guys with lower ping have a massive advantage when it comes to animation cancelling,
especially in PVP...

I ran into @Alcast once in pvp and he wrecked me in less than a second... lol...
Animation cancelling is a beast when done correctly but with higher latency it becomes near impossible.

You can't blame anyone for bad ping. Even without AC you have a disadvantage.

@Betahkiin AC does completely cancel certain skills. Actually all channeled skills are completly canceled when you block.

Let us lock at endless Hail for example and why AC makes sense even so it may look clunky in the game:
In real life if you were to shoot arrows in the air (and the charecter always does this even with AC) you could do that and then slowly lower you hand with the bow and be fine. But you could also do it way faster and not follow your natural movement and instantly turn around and block somones hit or you could dodge.
That is AC in a nutshell.

Or when you do a hit with a sword you can let your arms swing naturally or you could as soon es you hit your target rais it again and block his counter attack. Again that would be real life AC.
Just because the game does not make it look smooth does not mean it makes no sense at all.
It might be over the top for some cases, but it is nothing you could not do in RL.

Liofa

Even though I appreciate what you are trying to do , I suggest not to bother . Just get ready , some brain-dead ''real player'' will show up and insist that ''you are using an exploit'' , ''it breaks immersion'' and how ''animation cancel doesn't require skill'' bla bla bla . I learned every skills animation by heart to know exactly when to cancel my light attack and worked on it continuously because my stam nb rotation doesn't forgive if I miss a light attack . If I miss even only one , my whole rotation will be useless . And here we have ''real players'' who says animation cancel doesn't require skill . Yeah , sure . They don't even know they are doing it as well . So , I am gonna link a video if anyone against animation cancel is reading this . Please watch this video and DO NOT do anything mentioned here . Or , in your own words , you are a cheater . Cheers .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLZzGoPp9Ug

Zyrudin

In a related post I wrote:

I don't think the case here is against being able to cancel the animation of an ability, but against the ability registering the damage despite being cancelled. I agree that one should be able to cancel a channeling or animation to block or get out of the way of unexpected incoming damage instead, but to do that and still register damage is, what I think, is put on trial here.

So I entirely agree with OP.

Zyrudin

HatchetHaro wrote: »

There's a different angle we can look at this from, however.

Let's use, say, Snipe, for instance. The entire animation consists of charging up the shot, the moment of firing the shot, and after firing the shot. By your logic, if you cancel the animation right after the moment you fired the shot, the arrow should magically fly back to your hand.

Just... no. It makes no sense.

An animation should be able to be canceled after the point of action has been performed without reverting the effects of that action.

That's how weaving and animation cancelling works; you don't wait for your sword swing to stop completely before you attempt another swing from your combat stance; you chain them together in a flurry of attacks.

Competent AC will not even have the arrow leaving the bow and the ability will still register.

Vapirko

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I sit with latency of around 250,

It is very difficult to animation cancel with this kind of latency,
Even @Alcast mentioned it in one of his youtube videos when connecting to the PTS.

I therefore feel that guys with lower ping have a massive advantage when it comes to animation cancelling,
especially in PVP...

I ran into @Alcast once in pvp and he wrecked me in less than a second... lol...
Animation cancelling is a beast when done correctly but with higher latency it becomes near impossible.

Definitely, playing for SE Asia on NA server, latency is terrible. If i can sit at 350 I consider myself lucky. PVP frequently hits 500+

AC or really any kind of efficient fighting like this is out of the question. You can definitely blame latency for a massive loss in efficiency. Yes, skills are a huge part of it, but at some point its just frustrating AF. I wont ever be one of the best, but I could be a pretty decent player most of the time if it wasn't for high latency which puts me in the just ok category.

Vapirko

But yes, AC should be possible to move to another skill more quickly, but the damage should not be registered. This would frustrate a lot of people but would definitely even out the game.

FloppyTouch

Then can we just remove that animations of skill altogether? What's the point is it a skill thing to tap block after a skill fast? Not really maybe add an option to toggle on/off skill animation that way the rp ppl that like them can use them and the die hard pve and pvp crowd don't have to.

Derra

Please not this again.

If you´re unable to press two buttons every second to execute light attack + skill this game just isn´t for you.

I do however agree that animations should be sped up to make animation canceling no longer a necessity. Just let us *** use lightattack + skill without canceling it.

Johngo0036

@Xerton - Yeah exactly, It is unfortunately the state of where i live. As you say we are already at a disadvantage but now with AC that disadvantage grows exponentially,

Xerton

But AC is nothing new. It's not like it was introduced in the last 6 months.
So you always had this disadvantage. You might just not have been aware of it

SublimeSparo

This horse is dead.
I think you can stop beating it.

ChildOfLight

HatchetHaro wrote: »

There's a different angle we can look at this from, however.

Let's use, say, Snipe, for instance. The entire animation consists of charging up the shot, the moment of firing the shot, and after firing the shot. By your logic, if you cancel the animation right after the moment you fired the shot, the arrow should magically fly back to your hand.

Just... no. It makes no sense.

An animation should be able to be canceled after the point of action has been performed without reverting the effects of that action.

That's how weaving and animation cancelling works; you don't wait for your sword swing to stop completely before you attempt another swing from your combat stance; you chain them together in a flurry of attacks.

Quoted for reference.

Plus, every game with competitive features out there, has animation cancel. So, no.

M0bi

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I sit with latency of around 250,

It is very difficult to animation cancel with this kind of latency,
Even @Alcast mentioned it in one of his youtube videos when connecting to the PTS.

I therefore feel that guys with lower ping have a massive advantage when it comes to animation cancelling,
especially in PVP...

I ran into @Alcast once in pvp and he wrecked me in less than a second... lol...
Animation cancelling is a beast when done correctly but with higher latency it becomes near impossible.

I need to second this.

Johngo0036

Xerton wrote: »

But AC is nothing new. It's not like it was introduced in the last 6 months.
So you always had this disadvantage. You might just not have been aware of it

I actually am not too certain if it was in the game since launch,

YES we have been at a disadvantage since the start.
but it seems go be growing with each dlc..

Maybe as other player skill improves.

Derra

Johngo0036 wrote: »

Xerton wrote: »

But AC is nothing new. It's not like it was introduced in the last 6 months.
So you always had this disadvantage. You might just not have been aware of it

I actually am not too certain if it was in the game since launch,

YES we have been at a disadvantage since the start.
but it seems go be growing with each dlc..

Maybe as other player skill improves.

It has been in the game since start.

Faulgor

ChildOfLight wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

There's a different angle we can look at this from, however.

Let's use, say, Snipe, for instance. The entire animation consists of charging up the shot, the moment of firing the shot, and after firing the shot. By your logic, if you cancel the animation right after the moment you fired the shot, the arrow should magically fly back to your hand.

Just... no. It makes no sense.

An animation should be able to be canceled after the point of action has been performed without reverting the effects of that action.

That's how weaving and animation cancelling works; you don't wait for your sword swing to stop completely before you attempt another swing from your combat stance; you chain them together in a flurry of attacks.

Quoted for reference.

Plus, every game with competitive features out there, has animation cancel. So, no.

No, they don't. But that shouldn't be a deciding factor in the matter one way or another.

Having the option to animation cancel is prefered by some people for a more fast-paced game experience, I get that. But the other option is to have a more strategic game where you have to commit to an action, which is just as valid. Many games have elements of both anyway (think fighting games).

But these games usually have a more coherent design for these things, centered around start up, active and recovery frames. ESO's animation cancelling just "happened" without any deliberate intent by the designers to allow certain attack strings, or combos. That just wasn't the focus of the combat system (in the beginning it focused on heavy attacks, blocking, exploiting stuns, and resource management, i.e. a more strategic approach).

Talking about combos and fighting games in particular, animation cancels usually only happen when you actually land a hit, which you can then extend into a combo. Defensive animation cancels are much rarer and apparently not that well-liked (thinking about focus attacks in SF4 specifically, although I liked them). So you can only cancel an animation during the active or recovery frame if you hit your opponent. Canceling startup frames is much rarer in my experience.
Translating this into ESO would mean, when your attack is blocked, you can't animation cancel it. And you can only cancel the rest of the animation after you actually applied damage during an active frame (which is the issue of the OP).

Frankly I'm not that sure how ESO handles active frames, meaning when the damage of an ability is applied. It's different for different skills, but they don't seem to correspond that well with the actual animation. I mean, looking at Dawnbreaker, you'd expect the damage to happen when the sword is slammed down, but it's actually way before that.

I think people would have less of a problem with animation canceling if it at least seemed like a deliberately designed and coherent game mechanic, and not just a sloppy side effect.

AnviOfVai

This subject has been brought up numerous of times... I don't know why it has been brought up again, it has been stated that Animation cancelling is here to stay, whether you love it or hate it does not matter. From a designer who works in animation, I hate it...however if it was ever deleted the mechanics of the game would need a full haul over which with the state everything is in now is not worth it. I don't like it but I will use it on players who use it against me.

Betahkiin

Xerton wrote: »

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I sit with latency of around 250,

It is very difficult to animation cancel with this kind of latency,
Even @Alcast mentioned it in one of his youtube videos when connecting to the PTS.

I therefore feel that guys with lower ping have a massive advantage when it comes to animation cancelling,
especially in PVP...

I ran into @Alcast once in pvp and he wrecked me in less than a second... lol...
Animation cancelling is a beast when done correctly but with higher latency it becomes near impossible.

You can't blame anyone for bad ping. Even without AC you have a disadvantage.

@Betahkiin AC does completely cancel certain skills. Actually all channeled skills are completly canceled when you block.

Let us lock at endless Hail for example and why AC makes sense even so it may look clunky in the game:
In real life if you were to shoot arrows in the air (and the charecter always does this even with AC) you could do that and then slowly lower you hand with the bow and be fine. But you could also do it way faster and not follow your natural movement and instantly turn around and block somones hit or you could dodge.
That is AC in a nutshell.

Or when you do a hit with a sword you can let your arms swing naturally or you could as soon es you hit your target rais it again and block his counter attack. Again that would be real life AC.
Just because the game does not make it look smooth does not mean it makes no sense at all.
It might be over the top for some cases, but it is nothing you could not do in RL.

That is the problem, it is not real life, it is a game where it is assumed that there are fair rules to guarantee a balance in its conception.

If a skill has an animation or channeling time is because it was designed for that purpose, the fact of being able to alter that purpose and obtain 100% of its benefit is clearly breaking the bases of its existence.

If it were like in real life I think practically none could get hit by a moving target and at a distance with a bow the way it can be done in the game.

If it were like in real life some players would not have the strength to run with heavy armor and much less sustain intense combat holding a shield and a sword, much less the possibility of doing magic.

The game mechanics need to have immovable bases and the real skill of a player must arise from the correct use of the same knowing how and when to use them and not how to alter them or modify them for their benefit over others.

Xerton

Betahkiin wrote: »

not how to alter them or modify them for their benefit over others.

But isn't THAT skill? It's not like every skill in this game can be canceled the same way. You have to wait for a certain point in it's animation or you WILL actually completely deny its effect.
And some skills can't be canceled at all. One has to know and have the skill to use these things to his/her advandtage. Otherwise we just all press buttons every 1-4 seconds and hope the other one forgets to do so.
This way you have to think and react fast

Betahkiin

Derra wrote: »

Please not this again.

If you´re unable to press two buttons every second to execute light attack + skill this game just isn´t for you.

I do however agree that animations should be sped up to make animation canceling no longer a necessity. Just let us *** use lightattack + skill without canceling it.

There is no need to disqualify to prove a point of view.

On the other hand and by way of example, I am going to present a situation that reflects what is happening.

If I have a sweet roll and a pitcher of ice cold beer, I usually try one, then the other, and so on. Of course, I can get in my mouth all together and gain time doing it, but it is something unpleasant and unsatisfactory.

Someone can sit next to me and do it telling me that I do not have the capacity to do it, but the truth is that it is not that I can not but that it is unpleasant to have to do it, does not feel normal, it takes away all the grace and force me to focus only on the final result, to have a full stomach in less time.

xblackroxe

Betahkiin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Please not this again.

If you´re unable to press two buttons every second to execute light attack + skill this game just isn´t for you.

I do however agree that animations should be sped up to make animation canceling no longer a necessity. Just let us *** use lightattack + skill without canceling it.

There is no need to disqualify to prove a point of view.

On the other hand and by way of example, I am going to present a situation that reflects what is happening.

If I have a sweet roll and a pitcher of ice cold beer, I usually try one, then the other, and so on. Of course, I can get in my mouth all together and gain time doing it, but it is something unpleasant and unsatisfactory.

Someone can sit next to me and do it telling me that I do not have the capacity to do it, but the truth is that it is not that I can not but that it is unpleasant to have to do it, does not feel normal, it takes away all the grace and force me to focus only on the final result, to have a full stomach in less time.

Ok and bc you don't like it it should be removed?

skulpturfungus

I personally do not mind animation canceling in the sense that you can cancel an animation by some kind of defensive action. The only thing I find silly is the whole light attack -> skill AC thing, considering how you don't even have to wait for your swing to connect at all. It's not hard to do at all, I'd even say ESO has one of the easiest animation cancelling methods I've ever seen in a video game, but I don't feel that left-clicking once before every single skill really adds that much to the experience.