Animation Canceling - My point of view and reflection on the subject

Faulgor

Xerton wrote: »

@Faulgor do you play with a competetive build? Because if you would, you would know that ressource sustain is an issue and that you and your support have to be at the top of your game to sustain ressources.
For example: If magicka support is bad my sorc runs out of magicka within less than a minute. If it is perfect however i can sustain.
It is not like you could do whatever you want and don't run out of magicka. At least not as long as you don't put cost reduction on your rings/necklace.

Of course. But it is still far, far easier now to regain resources than in the initial combat design.

xblackroxe wrote: »

Fights weren't strategic at the start because ppl didnt really know AC. They were strategic because nobody could have infinite sustain paired with good damage and good defense all the time. People had to think what to use because if they weren't careful they'd run out of ressources and die.

Correct. Once resources became less of a limiting factor, people relied more on their skills and developed classic MMO rotations, which involved AC.

xblackroxe wrote: »

Once again the anti AC side proves they really have no idea what they are talking about.

Uh, kay.

xblackroxe

strebor2095 wrote: »

Until there are better server options for people who currently have >300 ping, combat should be entirely reworked. If I want to cast Elemental Blockade, bar swap, Liquid Lightning, block cancel, frags, it should take at least 3.6 seconds thanks to GCDs. This would be fair if the block cancel stopped the lightning from going off, but currently it acts as a "free" action.

ZOS could even change it so that only some non-chaneled abilities can be cast while blocking! Let taunts, and other tank abilities work, but if you want to deal serious damage (Liquid lightning, mage's wrath, poison injection) then you can't block until the damage portion has actually started.

So did I understand you correctly? You want to remove AC to ounish ppl with good ping because you have bad ping?

I could start a book soon. I'll call it "The 100 dumbest reason why Animation Canceling should be removed"

SwimsWithMemes

Yes? Should people just be locked out of content because ZOS balances it around an exploit?

Also, how is it punishing them? Its not like I'm asking every ability to be at my ping, just that the ability to play at a high level is achievable for people without a local server.

xblackroxe

strebor2095 wrote: »

Yes? Should people just be locked out of content because ZOS balances it around an exploit?

Also, how is it punishing them? Its not like I'm asking every ability to be at my ping, just that the ability to play at a high level is achievable for people without a local server.

Nobody is locked out of anything and AC is NOT a *** exploit. When will you people get that into your heads?

People can still have good dps with high ping. But no matter how you change the combat you will always be at a disadvantage.

You want to change the combat system that will not make your position better just so the low ping players have to adapt. Sounds really similar punishment.

Wollust

It was kinda time for the weekly AC thread I guess

xblackroxe

Faulgor wrote: »

Xerton wrote: »

@Faulgor do you play with a competetive build? Because if you would, you would know that ressource sustain is an issue and that you and your support have to be at the top of your game to sustain ressources.
For example: If magicka support is bad my sorc runs out of magicka within less than a minute. If it is perfect however i can sustain.
It is not like you could do whatever you want and don't run out of magicka. At least not as long as you don't put cost reduction on your rings/necklace.

Of course. But it is still far, far easier now to regain resources than in the initial combat design.

xblackroxe wrote: »

Fights weren't strategic at the start because ppl didnt really know AC. They were strategic because nobody could have infinite sustain paired with good damage and good defense all the time. People had to think what to use because if they weren't careful they'd run out of ressources and die.

Correct. Once resources became less of a limiting factor, people relied more on their skills and developed classic MMO rotations, which involved AC.

xblackroxe wrote: »

Once again the anti AC side proves they really have no idea what they are talking about.

Uh, kay.

So we can agree that the problem with strategic play is ressource management and not AC. Good.

Faulgor

xblackroxe wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Xerton wrote: »

@Faulgor do you play with a competetive build? Because if you would, you would know that ressource sustain is an issue and that you and your support have to be at the top of your game to sustain ressources.
For example: If magicka support is bad my sorc runs out of magicka within less than a minute. If it is perfect however i can sustain.
It is not like you could do whatever you want and don't run out of magicka. At least not as long as you don't put cost reduction on your rings/necklace.

Of course. But it is still far, far easier now to regain resources than in the initial combat design.

xblackroxe wrote: »

Fights weren't strategic at the start because ppl didnt really know AC. They were strategic because nobody could have infinite sustain paired with good damage and good defense all the time. People had to think what to use because if they weren't careful they'd run out of ressources and die.

Correct. Once resources became less of a limiting factor, people relied more on their skills and developed classic MMO rotations, which involved AC.

xblackroxe wrote: »

Once again the anti AC side proves they really have no idea what they are talking about.

Uh, kay.

So we can agree that the problem with strategic play is ressource management and not AC. Good.

Yup. Although lacking AC could promote strategy in the sense that you would have to a larger commitment to a certain action, because you wouldn't be able to cancel it - but a similar commitment can be accomplished with having to be more diligent with your resources.

My main issue with AC is that its implementation feels sloppy, because it was merely an unintended side effect. You can build interesting and engaging - and even strategic - combat systems with AC, but that's sadly not what they did.

Uviryth

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

There's that one guy who calls anyone who animation cancels a "cheater/exploiter".
Wonder if he'll show up...

It´s not cheating, but its the very definition of exploiting. Unless you want to tell me that breaking an animation is the way the game was originally created.

OnTopic:
Animationcanceling is half the reason pretty much anyone I know quit the game. Not because its hard to do, or because it gives you an edge over another player. But because its not fun to watch your character spasm out like someone on Heroin and Speed at the same time. The beauty of the character, his armor and his combat-animations are a major selling point of ESO over other mmo`s. Without that a lot of the allure fades away.

Xerton

Uviryth wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

There's that one guy who calls anyone who animation cancels a "cheater/exploiter".
Wonder if he'll show up...

It´s not cheating, but its the very definition of exploiting. Unless you want to tell me that breaking an animation is the way the game was originally created.

OnTopic:
Animationcanceling is half the reason pretty much anyone I know quit the game. Not because its hard to do, or because it gives you an edge over another player. But because its not fun to watch your character spasm out like someone on Heroin and Speed at the same time. The beauty of the character, his armor and his combat-animations are a major selling point of ESO over other mmo`s. Without that a lot of the allure fades away.

Nobody forces you to AC. Go role playing, no one cares.

cbaudersub17_ESO

Uviryth wrote: »

Animationcanceling is half the reason pretty much anyone I know quit the game.

I remember the exodus all too well, and I remember when clipping of animations to stack damaging abilities went main stream.

In my opinion, it is better than what is when the game launched. Lag does not help in the least bit. But, seems to me to be hindrance on the ever elusive 'balance' and general build diversity that this game could have.

Ermiq

xblackroxe wrote: »

strebor2095 wrote: »

Until there are better server options for people who currently have >300 ping, combat should be entirely reworked. If I want to cast Elemental Blockade, bar swap, Liquid Lightning, block cancel, frags, it should take at least 3.6 seconds thanks to GCDs. This would be fair if the block cancel stopped the lightning from going off, but currently it acts as a "free" action.

ZOS could even change it so that only some non-chaneled abilities can be cast while blocking! Let taunts, and other tank abilities work, but if you want to deal serious damage (Liquid lightning, mage's wrath, poison injection) then you can't block until the damage portion has actually started.

So did I understand you correctly? You want to remove AC to ounish ppl with good ping because you have bad ping?

You're looking at the book but you can't understand a single word there, do you?

xblackroxe

Eremith wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

strebor2095 wrote: »

Until there are better server options for people who currently have >300 ping, combat should be entirely reworked. If I want to cast Elemental Blockade, bar swap, Liquid Lightning, block cancel, frags, it should take at least 3.6 seconds thanks to GCDs. This would be fair if the block cancel stopped the lightning from going off, but currently it acts as a "free" action.

ZOS could even change it so that only some non-chaneled abilities can be cast while blocking! Let taunts, and other tank abilities work, but if you want to deal serious damage (Liquid lightning, mage's wrath, poison injection) then you can't block until the damage portion has actually started.

So did I understand you correctly? You want to remove AC to ounish ppl with good ping because you have bad ping?

You're looking at the book but you can't understand a single word there, do you?

No, infact I´m the one having full understanding of what this posts wants to say. The poster him/herself is in denial of what his proposal actually means.

SwimsWithMemes

@xblackroxe if my ping is 300, then in 1 second I can do an action, and wait .3 seconds to see if the server registered it -observing say .5s of an ability before attempting to cancel, now it has taken 1.1s to do a full animation cancel (as an example). This is fully a server problem I have, and if ZOS won't give us good international servers then I must at least ask them to re-evaluate AC.

Now if I'm doing 2 actions, I.e., a skill then blocking immediately, I can either hope that the server will read it correctly, but as witnessed through chat in the game, sometimes it can get the actions out of order. This can lead to block then skill, which will require another attempt to block, making it still greater than a second.

Since the GCD is 0.9s, I can have a reasonable expectation to use an ability every 1 second (and this makes sense to the game rules.

So my main problem is that the way the combat system is designed to work is being abused and even if ZOS is okay with it, it should not be a part of the game for balancing. They should balance around the way they designed the combat system, or rework it to make AC scripting possible.

If they had said when I bought the game "sorry, players from Australia will be gimped in their DPS, and be forever unable to catch up" then I would not have ever attempted to dps in the game for serious content.

Shunravi

Zyrudin wrote: »

.

Shunravi wrote: »

Yup, in the game your oponent also has the ability to block, parry, and dodge. Just like here, they will mitigate any intended attack. If you do not mitigate every attack, then just like in real life, the damage goes through.

Not exactly the same, because mitigating implies a hit, that is that the movement completed and there was a parry or a dodge. In real-life swordplay (merely the metaphor being used that I didn't bring up, anyway) if whatever striking movement isn't completed and is cancelled, then there is no hit and therefore no mitigation.

Moreover, all movements depend on the visual queues the two opponents are giving each other. Some are feigns some are real, just like in boxing. You still have to land that hit to do damage, though, and for that, the movement has to actually reach the point of connection.

Again, addressing the subject not necessarily the comment. I wanted to expand the perspective and figured you were better than some to make it a reply to.


See the thing is, you are not actually canceling the attack. The game registers the damage at a very specific point in the attack. The attack does connect. This fraction of a second point of connection can be prevented if you block to soon btw. There is a hit.

damage should be applied when the animation reaches a point where a hit would make sense. We all know the animations don't line up 100% of the time.

This is the point we are talking around. I asked before and i will ask again. Please provide proof. I dont mean this as 'ha you cant prove it, your argument is invalid' but as an oportunity, i have seen no one take, to strengthen the argument. Point it out in an existing video if you have to. But please provide something more substantial than words. This is a golden oportunity to provide a bit of evidence.

Now, in a bid to be constructive, how would you think they should go about tweaking the animation system to make things more fluid and visible while keeping the system which they said they support in place?

xblackroxe

strebor2095 wrote: »

@xblackroxe if my ping is 300, then in 1 second I can do an action, and wait .3 seconds to see if the server registered it -observing say .5s of an ability before attempting to cancel, now it has taken 1.1s to do a full animation cancel (as an example). This is fully a server problem I have, and if ZOS won't give us good international servers then I must at least ask them to re-evaluate AC.

Now if I'm doing 2 actions, I.e., a skill then blocking immediately, I can either hope that the server will read it correctly, but as witnessed through chat in the game, sometimes it can get the actions out of order. This can lead to block then skill, which will require another attempt to block, making it still greater than a second.

Since the GCD is 0.9s, I can have a reasonable expectation to use an ability every 1 second (and this makes sense to the game rules.

So my main problem is that the way the combat system is designed to work is being abused and even if ZOS is okay with it, it should not be a part of the game for balancing. They should balance around the way they designed the combat system, or rework it to make AC scripting possible.

If they had said when I bought the game "sorry, players from Australia will be gimped in their DPS, and be forever unable to catch up" then I would not have ever attempted to dps in the game for serious content.

If we talk about PvP then you will always be at a disadvantage no matter if there is Ac or not. Your ping will make your reactions out of sync anyway.

If we talk about PvE though its still a L2P problem. I play with ppl that also have constantly 200+ ping and still do good dps. The only AC you really need to have good dps is weaving and that is still possible with high ping. There are barely any skills where block canceling is actually helpful. Tbh i dont know of any ability that is an instant cast and has an animation longer than the GCD.

Why would ZOS not balance content with an intended game mechanic in mind? It would be dumb to not do that.

Maybe think? What do you think happens when the server processing your information during combat is over an ocean away?
They obviously calculated it and found the cost vs reward wasn´t worth it to have an independent server for oceanic players.

Ermiq

xblackroxe wrote: »

Eremith wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

strebor2095 wrote: »

Until there are better server options for people who currently have >300 ping, combat should be entirely reworked. If I want to cast Elemental Blockade, bar swap, Liquid Lightning, block cancel, frags, it should take at least 3.6 seconds thanks to GCDs. This would be fair if the block cancel stopped the lightning from going off, but currently it acts as a "free" action.

ZOS could even change it so that only some non-chaneled abilities can be cast while blocking! Let taunts, and other tank abilities work, but if you want to deal serious damage (Liquid lightning, mage's wrath, poison injection) then you can't block until the damage portion has actually started.

So did I understand you correctly? You want to remove AC to ounish ppl with good ping because you have bad ping?

You're looking at the book but you can't understand a single word there, do you?

No, infact I´m the one having full understanding of what this posts wants to say. The poster him/herself is in denial of what his proposal actually means.

Ok. May I clarify all these discussion in my way then?
If I understand you correctly, you'er thinking that anti-AC posters are blaming every AC-user personaly in all bad things. They can not play the game and they want to ruin every AC-user's life, kill the game and conquer the world. You're afraid that if anti-AC win then all good players would quit the game and there would stay only bad players and RP-players and the servers will be closed soon.
Hm... I think I'm really understand your opinion. It's stupid though.

Dragonnord

It's a cancer. Major advantage to those with low latency towards those with high ping.

Remove AC.

xblackroxe

Eremith wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Eremith wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

strebor2095 wrote: »

Until there are better server options for people who currently have >300 ping, combat should be entirely reworked. If I want to cast Elemental Blockade, bar swap, Liquid Lightning, block cancel, frags, it should take at least 3.6 seconds thanks to GCDs. This would be fair if the block cancel stopped the lightning from going off, but currently it acts as a "free" action.

ZOS could even change it so that only some non-chaneled abilities can be cast while blocking! Let taunts, and other tank abilities work, but if you want to deal serious damage (Liquid lightning, mage's wrath, poison injection) then you can't block until the damage portion has actually started.

So did I understand you correctly? You want to remove AC to ounish ppl with good ping because you have bad ping?

You're looking at the book but you can't understand a single word there, do you?

No, infact I´m the one having full understanding of what this posts wants to say. The poster him/herself is in denial of what his proposal actually means.

Ok. May I clarify all these discussion in my way then?
If I understand you correctly, you'er thinking that anti-AC posters are blaming every AC-user personaly in all bad things. They can not play the game and they want to ruin every AC-user's life, kill the game and conquer the world. You're afraid that if anti-AC win then all good players would quit the game and there would stay only bad players and RP-players and the servers will be closed soon.
Hm... I think I'm really understand your opinion. It's stupid though.

Nope you don´t understand what I said. I said that saying AC needs to be removed bc that guy has high ping and can´t deal with that is absolutely no real argument on this matter. This ONE guy. I don´t do broad generalisations.

I´m the last person to disregard a reasonable argument. Thats the people you can actually argue with. I´m just sick of people that either say its cheating, exploiting or clearly have no idea how AC works and just blame it because they don´t wanna admit the fact that maybe the problem is them not everyone except them.

LtCrunch

xblackroxe wrote: »

Why would ZOS not balance content with an intended game mechanic in mind? It would be dumb to not do that.

Therein lies the point many of us have made. It's not, nor was it ever an intended game mechanic. In ZOS' own words it was "unintended, but cool!" Let's not forget they clearly tried to address it in the TG patch but all they really did was make AC feel more awkward and clunky, rather than fixing it.

If ZOS wants to treat it as a game mechanic it can't be this sloppy. As I stated in a previous comment ZOS should be embarrassed that a core aspect of their combat system is not taught to players in any way. If they're going to continue to keep it in the game they need to actually treat it like a game mechanic and teach players the basic concepts behind it, just like any other mechanic. A player should never have to read forums, watch videos or read guides to learn about a core aspect of your game's combat system. Ever.

Outside of that issue it's still rather obvious it wasn't a conscious design choice. See fighting games as an example of intentional animation clipping and how it should be done. For competent animation clipping ZOS would have to redesign pretty much every animation in the game in an intelligent way. I don't think that they think it's worth the resources to do so though, probably because it's not an easily marketable overhaul such as One Tamriel or the Champion system. The least they can do is treat it like an intended game mechanic by teaching players the basics.

They've said they want to condense the skill gap by lowering the ceiling and bringing up the floor. Well addressing AC in one way or the other will definitely help them towards that goal. It doesn't have to be removed, just done right.

HeroOfNone

Brandalf wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Why would ZOS not balance content with an intended game mechanic in mind? It would be dumb to not do that.

Therein lies the point many of us have made. It's not, nor was it ever an intended game mechanic. In ZOS' own words it was "unintended, but cool!" Let's not forget they clearly tried to address it in the TG patch but all they really did was make AC feel more awkward and clunky, rather than fixing it.

If ZOS wants to treat it as a game mechanic it can't be this sloppy. As I stated in a previous comment ZOS should be embarrassed that a core aspect of their combat system is not taught to players in any way. If they're going to continue to keep it in the game they need to actually treat it like a game mechanic and teach players the basic concepts behind it, just like any other mechanic. A player should never have to read forums, watch videos or read guides to learn about a core aspect of your game's combat system. Ever.

Outside of that issue it's still rather obvious it wasn't a conscious design choice. See fighting games as an example of intentional animation clipping and how it should be done. For competent animation clipping ZOS would have to redesign pretty much every animation in the game in an intelligent way. I don't think that they think it's worth the resources to do so though, probably because it's not an easily marketable overhaul such as One Tamriel or the Champion system. The least they can do is treat it like an intended game mechanic by teaching players the basics.

They've said they want to condense the skill gap by lowering the ceiling and bringing up the floor. Well addressing AC in one way or the other will definitely help them towards that goal. It doesn't have to be removed, just done right.

I agree and disagree in some aspects.

Is animation canceling an intended mechanic by ZOS at this point? At this point it absolutely is. It may have been unintended to start, however they have built hard mode dungeons, trials, and have lowered damage and healing in PVP as a result of it. It is on their minds as they continue to develop this game. That is something where your opinion is just a little off from others.

Is animation canceling implimented well in ESO? In both our opinions, no. The animation clipping is horrible, they have no tutorial, they have no alternative tactics for players can't do it well due external factors (high latency, disability, or other), and it lacks a proper counter in PVP. This is where some of us split opinions on the details, but most will agree improvements are needed.

xblackroxe

Brandalf wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Why would ZOS not balance content with an intended game mechanic in mind? It would be dumb to not do that.

Therein lies the point many of us have made. It's not, nor was it ever an intended game mechanic. In ZOS' own words it was "unintended, but cool!" Let's not forget they clearly tried to address it in the TG patch but all they really did was make AC feel more awkward and clunky, rather than fixing it.

If ZOS wants to treat it as a game mechanic it can't be this sloppy. As I stated in a previous comment ZOS should be embarrassed that a core aspect of their combat system is not taught to players in any way. If they're going to continue to keep it in the game they need to actually treat it like a game mechanic and teach players the basic concepts behind it, just like any other mechanic. A player should never have to read forums, watch videos or read guides to learn about a core aspect of your game's combat system. Ever.

Outside of that issue it's still rather obvious it wasn't a conscious design choice. See fighting games as an example of intentional animation clipping and how it should be done. For competent animation clipping ZOS would have to redesign pretty much every animation in the game in an intelligent way. I don't think that they think it's worth the resources to do so though, probably because it's not an easily marketable overhaul such as One Tamriel or the Champion system. The least they can do is treat it like an intended game mechanic by teaching players the basics.

They've said they want to condense the skill gap by lowering the ceiling and bringing up the floor. Well addressing AC in one way or the other will definitely help them towards that goal. It doesn't have to be removed, just done right.

It was not intended the way it was actually implemented. But it is embraced now and fully implemented in the game.
They didn't try to fix AC. They changed the visual ques.

ZOS can only carry your ass so far. At some point people should start thinking for themselves. Most people I know just found it by accident and didn't have to learn it from other people. You get taught you can block dodge and lightattack. The ACing comes from alone.

LtCrunch

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Is animation canceling an intended mechanic by ZOS at this point? At this point it absolutely is. It may have been unintended to start, however they have built hard mode dungeons, trials, and have lowered damage and healing in PVP as a result of it. It is on their minds as they continue to develop this game. That is something where your opinion is just a little off from others..

I'm not sure that makes it's an intended mechanic. It just makes it an accepted practice that's factored into endgame content. But that's mostly splitting hairs. I agree with you, I just articulate it a bit differently is all.

LtCrunch

xblackroxe wrote: »

It was not intended the way it was actually implemented. But it is embraced now and fully implemented in the game.

While it's obviously factored into the creation of endgame content, I wouldn't say that means it's fully implemented. Just that ZOs is smart enough to realize if they want endgame content to be challenging for high-end

xblackroxe wrote: »

They didn't try to fix AC. They changed the visual ques.

The visual cues are the same though. No animations were changed. They just made it feel more awkward by changing the timings a bit from what they were.

xblackroxe wrote: »

ZOS can only carry your ass so far. At some point people should start thinking for themselves. Most people I know just found it by accident and didn't have to learn it from other people. You get taught you can block dodge and lightattack. The ACing comes from alone.

You can try to play it off as a L2P issue, which technically speaking, you're right. But it's not that simple. It's also terrible implementation and poor game design to have a CORE function of your combat be left to be "figured out". There's a difference between ZOS "carrying my ass" and outlining gameplay frameworks. If you play a board game all of the rules are laid out and established for you. This establishes what you can and cannot do within the framework provided. That's simple, basic, and logical design. You can have outlying mechanics, strategies, etc. left up to the player, but not core mechanics. That's just simply bad design.

I get that those in the high-end PVE guilds don't want the complexity to be dumbed down, I don't either. It's not an either/or situation though. There is a way for ZOS to address it properly without dumbing combat down or making it feel slower/more slugging. Making everyone happy.

That being said I know many high-end PVE guilds love hidden mechanics and exploits so they can abuse them and claim top spots in leaderboards and whatnot. This has been demonstrated many, many times over the course of ESO's lifespan and it's not good for the overall health of the game.

Rjizzle09

I cant believe people are still bothered over this type of thing. Its in the game its been here since launch and it isnt going anywhere so i dont see the point in making these threads anymore. This is an ation rpg so there arw going ro be cwrtain at will things that youll have to do to be better at dpsing. Its the same as in a fighting game you have people who just punch 1 button, you have people who do a few moves, then you have people who actually no how to cancel into other moves and cometely wreck competition. Animation cancelling isnt for everyone and it lotwrally takes no time to learn how to do it(whats jard about pressing block quick or bar swapping?) The himan mind can literally handle numerous functions no matter how old you are and for people who say well i have a limitation or disability with these types of things well if tbats you there are plenty of things in this game that you can do but dont expect the game to get nerfed just because of that. Everyone in this game has access ro the same resources so theres literally no reason anyone cant do what someome elsw does.

Rjizzle09

Most of the people saying this are getting wrecked in cyrodiil anyways and want animation cancelling to be gone. Well i have news for you if you cant be that person now then taking away animation cancellijg wont do you any good theyre still going ro own you until you get better than what you are. Removing ani cancelling wont help a person that just sits and press one button all the time or tries to kill someone with crit rush when theyre specd for magic

LtCrunch

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

*snip*

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

*snip*

I'm sorry, but did you read anything in this thread? Most of it isn't asking for animation cancelling to be removed or anything of the sort. We're asking for it to be treated like a proper game mechanic. Right now it's sloppy, lazy and bad design. Maybe try reading the discussion, regardless of which side of the discussion you're on it's compelling conversation(mostly).

SwimsWithMemes

I'm not complaining about it in PvP, PvP is nigh unplayable for me between getting stuck switching bars, permanent horse mounting, and invisible players.

I'm just saying that the game used to be competitively playable with 300 ping, but now it is not as new content is based specifically on this featured exploit, which is not replicable consistently. So, ZOS should either make this easier for most people to achieve (give a feature to prioritize ability casts on you character, then ability cancels second? So even if its in the wrong order the game will interpret it correctly if its within a certain timeframe), or remove it from the game, or create a west coast USA server cluster.

Ermiq

xblackroxe wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Why would ZOS not balance content with an intended game mechanic in mind? It would be dumb to not do that.

Therein lies the point many of us have made. It's not, nor was it ever an intended game mechanic. In ZOS' own words it was "unintended, but cool!" Let's not forget they clearly tried to address it in the TG patch but all they really did was make AC feel more awkward and clunky, rather than fixing it.

If ZOS wants to treat it as a game mechanic it can't be this sloppy. As I stated in a previous comment ZOS should be embarrassed that a core aspect of their combat system is not taught to players in any way. If they're going to continue to keep it in the game they need to actually treat it like a game mechanic and teach players the basic concepts behind it, just like any other mechanic. A player should never have to read forums, watch videos or read guides to learn about a core aspect of your game's combat system. Ever.

Outside of that issue it's still rather obvious it wasn't a conscious design choice. See fighting games as an example of intentional animation clipping and how it should be done. For competent animation clipping ZOS would have to redesign pretty much every animation in the game in an intelligent way. I don't think that they think it's worth the resources to do so though, probably because it's not an easily marketable overhaul such as One Tamriel or the Champion system. The least they can do is treat it like an intended game mechanic by teaching players the basics.

They've said they want to condense the skill gap by lowering the ceiling and bringing up the floor. Well addressing AC in one way or the other will definitely help them towards that goal. It doesn't have to be removed, just done right.

It was not intended the way it was actually implemented. But it is embraced now and fully implemented in the game.
They didn't try to fix AC. They changed the visual ques.

ZOS can only carry your ass so far. At some point people should start thinking for themselves. Most people I know just found it by accident and didn't have to learn it from other people. You get taught you can block dodge and lightattack. The ACing comes from alone.

Wow. Fully implemented... Should start thinking to find out...
So, we get taught block, dodge, light attack, heavy attack, we read from a loadscreen about class specific and weapon skills, second skill panel... But AC is what we should find accidentialy (or find it in unofficial guides, watch in videos).
That's funny.

Ermiq

strebor2095 wrote: »

So even if its in the wrong order the game will interpret it correctly if its within a certain timeframe), or remove it from the game, or create a west coast USA server cluster.

And don't forget about Eastern Europe/Asian server. We here wanna play with low ping too.

DyingIsEasy

strebor2095 wrote: »

@xblackroxe if my ping is 300, then in 1 second I can do an action, and wait .3 seconds to see if the server registered it -observing say .5s of an ability before attempting to cancel, now it has taken 1.1s to do a full animation cancel (as an example). This is fully a server problem I have, and if ZOS won't give us good international servers then I must at least ask them to re-evaluate AC.

Now if I'm doing 2 actions, I.e., a skill then blocking immediately, I can either hope that the server will read it correctly, but as witnessed through chat in the game, sometimes it can get the actions out of order. This can lead to block then skill, which will require another attempt to block, making it still greater than a second.

Since the GCD is 0.9s, I can have a reasonable expectation to use an ability every 1 second (and this makes sense to the game rules.

So my main problem is that the way the combat system is designed to work is being abused and even if ZOS is okay with it, it should not be a part of the game for balancing. They should balance around the way they designed the combat system, or rework it to make AC scripting possible.

If they had said when I bought the game "sorry, players from Australia will be gimped in their DPS, and be forever unable to catch up" then I would not have ever attempted to dps in the game for serious content.

Funny enough, the problem you describe didn't exist before the Dark Brotherhood Update. Back then you didn't have to wait for the animation to start playing. Instead you could just cancel right after you released your ability key. So if ZOS decides to re-evaluate AC i recommend going back to the original animation priority system.