What will you do with your Sorc after update 13?

Derra

Other

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Can we already take away the ability to stack hardened and harness.

Helo? Anyone? @Wrobel

Not without some other serious changes (shield duration and strength). But a major/minor system for shields is probably something needed.

I don´t even think so.

I think zos could go on and implement it without any additional change. Just harness/dampen replacing hardened/empowered and the other way round.

The game would instantly become more enjoyable.

Shields aren't big enough for just 1 shield open world anymore.

I open world every day with one shield.

Two anytime shields + healing ward make anyone capable of pressing 3 buttons immortal in a 1v1 situation when deciding to go full defensive.

I only advocate to make hardened + harness unstackable. I´m for reworking healing ward aswell but as is i don´t think it´s as much of an issue when taking harness out of the equation.

I can only hope they don't just blindly change it without some kind of compensatory buff on hardened ward.

The whole reason for six second shields was the whole double/triple stack problem. Without stacking? There's no reason to keep them at six seconds, or as small as they are individually for that matter. With a few shattering CP, they last maybe one good hit.

I think you forget, that unlike your HA MDK, we're running 'commando' underneath that shield. Light armor? We might as well be naked.

The reason for the shield nerf was to make it more of a reactionary defense that´s not up 100% of the time while being offensive. That has been stated by ZOS on that matter.

Also the duration nerf has changed absolutely nothing about double/tripplestacks effectiveness as a defensive mechanism. So the whole "stacking problem" has not changed at all with the duration changes.

The problem is shields can´t last for much more than one hit (which they already do). Why? Because you can spam them in gcd.
When i run harness hardened healingward i´ve not met a single player who can break me going fully defensive.

I honestly think anyone not thinking shieldstacking is broken op at this point is living in denial. You can´t kill someone with three shields unless they´ve made a terrible mistake.

But why do you go full defense against a single player? It doesn't make sense. You could rather kill him.
Unless you're running from his buddies. Two players easily crush any shields. Unlike dodge and Shuffle, they do not scale.
And if you're really running, we're back to the gapclose snare problem. Streak is too weak and expensive to be a proper escape tool from the zerg.
No, shieldstacking is not broken. Dodging infinite attacks while breaking roots and moving distance is.

The point is - if you recognize you´re loosing a fight on a magica sorc. You can always force a stalemate by playing only defensive.
There is no breaking a trippleshieldstack.
Do you really think it´s good that you can outplay someone and will still not be able to kill them?

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Can we already take away the ability to stack hardened and harness.

Helo? Anyone? @Wrobel

Not without some other serious changes (shield duration and strength). But a major/minor system for shields is probably something needed.

I don´t even think so.

I think zos could go on and implement it without any additional change. Just harness/dampen replacing hardened/empowered and the other way round.

The game would instantly become more enjoyable.

Shields aren't big enough for just 1 shield open world anymore.

I open world every day with one shield.

Two anytime shields + healing ward make anyone capable of pressing 3 buttons immortal in a 1v1 situation when deciding to go full defensive.

I only advocate to make hardened + harness unstackable. I´m for reworking healing ward aswell but as is i don´t think it´s as much of an issue when taking harness out of the equation.

I can only hope they don't just blindly change it without some kind of compensatory buff on hardened ward.

The whole reason for six second shields was the whole double/triple stack problem. Without stacking? There's no reason to keep them at six seconds, or as small as they are individually for that matter. With a few shattering CP, they last maybe one good hit.

I think you forget, that unlike your HA MDK, we're running 'commando' underneath that shield. Light armor? We might as well be naked.

The reason for the shield nerf was to make it more of a reactionary defense that´s not up 100% of the time while being offensive. That has been stated by ZOS on that matter.

Also the duration nerf has changed absolutely nothing about double/tripplestacks effectiveness as a defensive mechanism. So the whole "stacking problem" has not changed at all with the duration changes.

The problem is shields can´t last for much more than one hit (which they already do). Why? Because you can spam them in gcd.
When i run harness hardened healingward i´ve not met a single player who can break me going fully defensive.

I honestly think anyone not thinking shieldstacking is broken op at this point is living in denial. You can´t kill someone with three shields unless they´ve made a terrible mistake.

You won't kill anything going full defensive.

It´s possible for most offensive builds (which magica sorc in light armor unarguably are).
Anything medium can be broken. Any other char in light can be broken.

Ashamray

Waffennacht wrote: »

If you knew that if you hard casted frags, about half way through started a heavy attack, that the frags will not have an animation and land exactly with the heavy attack (say from a frost staff) just like wrecking blow of old,

Would you consider that a bug?

Anx would that make you wanna use a sorc more?

It is called animation cancel and works as intended

Lord-Otto

Try to adapt to the changes

@Derra
The thing is, usually enemy reinforcements arrive when you stretch the fight like this.
And I also don't think you can survive endlessly. Shields are expensive, stamina scarce and certain CC's can just lag out and prevent breaking free.

KisoValley

Continue to play as it is

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@Derra
The thing is, usually enemy reinforcements arrive when you stretch the fight like this.
And I also don't think you can survive endlessly. Shields are expensive, stamina scarce and certain CC's can just lag out and prevent breaking free.

With the correct build you can stall endlessly without running out of magicka or stamina. Other than unbreakable CC's like fear, I can see where Derra is coming from about that point.

Lord-Otto

Try to adapt to the changes

KisoValley wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@Derra
The thing is, usually enemy reinforcements arrive when you stretch the fight like this.
And I also don't think you can survive endlessly. Shields are expensive, stamina scarce and certain CC's can just lag out and prevent breaking free.

With the correct build you can stall endlessly without running out of magicka or stamina. Other than unbreakable CC's like fear, I can see where Derra is coming from about that point.

Okay.
Actually sounds balanced to me, though. Temps and Stamsorcs and pretty much every tank build can become unkillable. Good, they can't kill you, BUT they provide CC's, roots and heals to their allied. If they are allowed that utility, I think it's fair to have DD's go full unkillable. If we then consider the cheesy oneshots from gankers...
Nope, shield stacking is fine.

Sweetpea704

Continue to play as it is

The changes don't really effect my build that much for PVP. With all the flappy wing DKs, I quit using overload a long time ago. Actually, the buff to heavy attacks is a buff for me, since they are the best way to make a crack in some of these troll builds, especially with a lightning staff.

Waffennacht

Try to adapt to the changes

@Ashamray actually that's not animation cancelling (it's closer to weaving if anything) the Frag literally will wait on your heavy attack charge and then simultaneously land with the Heavy. Wb use to do this till they fixed the bug.

Animation cancelling would be like casting frags (procced) then weapon swap so the crystal's animation is removed, it won't delay the frag till the next attack hits.

Weaving is casting a frag and prior to animation finishing, charging the Heavy or medium or LA after, cutting things closer together. Again the Frag shouldn't wait for your HA to land.

Anyway, I have my Troll King build for PvP and my Shepherd for PvE. I expect to see a lot more builds like mine in U13

Minalan

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Can we already take away the ability to stack hardened and harness.

Helo? Anyone? @Wrobel

Not without some other serious changes (shield duration and strength). But a major/minor system for shields is probably something needed.

I don´t even think so.

I think zos could go on and implement it without any additional change. Just harness/dampen replacing hardened/empowered and the other way round.

The game would instantly become more enjoyable.

Shields aren't big enough for just 1 shield open world anymore.

I open world every day with one shield.

Two anytime shields + healing ward make anyone capable of pressing 3 buttons immortal in a 1v1 situation when deciding to go full defensive.

I only advocate to make hardened + harness unstackable. I´m for reworking healing ward aswell but as is i don´t think it´s as much of an issue when taking harness out of the equation.

I can only hope they don't just blindly change it without some kind of compensatory buff on hardened ward.

The whole reason for six second shields was the whole double/triple stack problem. Without stacking? There's no reason to keep them at six seconds, or as small as they are individually for that matter. With a few shattering CP, they last maybe one good hit.

I think you forget, that unlike your HA MDK, we're running 'commando' underneath that shield. Light armor? We might as well be naked.

The reason for the shield nerf was to make it more of a reactionary defense that´s not up 100% of the time while being offensive. That has been stated by ZOS on that matter.

Also the duration nerf has changed absolutely nothing about double/tripplestacks effectiveness as a defensive mechanism. So the whole "stacking problem" has not changed at all with the duration changes.

The problem is shields can´t last for much more than one hit (which they already do). Why? Because you can spam them in gcd.
When i run harness hardened healingward i´ve not met a single player who can break me going fully defensive.

I honestly think anyone not thinking shieldstacking is broken op at this point is living in denial. You can´t kill someone with three shields unless they´ve made a terrible mistake.

Don't pretend that shield stacking doesn't have counterplay. It works for anyone who can count to five. Yeah I know it's real hard, but hear me out.

1
2
3
4
5 (it comes after 4! This one is the hardest step!)
Stun/KD/Fear
Burst the sorc with their shields down. They have no armor, they probably won't survive.

Any sorc spamming shields more than every 5-6 seconds isn't doing any damage. A double stack eats three seconds with a bar swap alone.

ToRelax

You mean someone "going fully defensive" isn't doing any damage?
Besides, if you need a second to swap bars you are doing it wrong.

Waffennacht

Try to adapt to the changes

@Derra for the most part you shouldn't be able to beat any pro without them making a mistake.

My last 3 duels were against some bamfs. One was a shield stacker, guess what? After 25 min dueling he made a mistake and died.

Minalan

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

ToRelax wrote: »

You mean someone "going fully defensive" isn't doing any damage?
Besides, if you need a second to swap bars you are doing it wrong.

I'm counting the time to swap back as well, you're not going offensive on your buff bar FFS.

People pretend that shields are like dodge rolling, press one button on your mouse and all of the sudden it's three seconds of god-mode while you're still strong on the offense.

Derra

Other

Minalan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

You mean someone "going fully defensive" isn't doing any damage?
Besides, if you need a second to swap bars you are doing it wrong.

I'm counting the time to swap back as well, you're not going offensive on your buff bar FFS.

People pretend that shields are like dodge rolling, press one button on your mouse and all of the sudden it's three seconds of god-mode while you're still strong on the offense.

Put two shields on mainbar. Profit.

And nobody said you´re still strong on the offense. The ability to stalemate everyone even if you´re an absolutely terrible player is the problem.

ToRelax

Minalan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

You mean someone "going fully defensive" isn't doing any damage?
Besides, if you need a second to swap bars you are doing it wrong.

I'm counting the time to swap back as well, you're not going offensive on your buff bar FFS.

People pretend that shields are like dodge rolling, press one button on your mouse and all of the sudden it's three seconds of god-mode while you're still strong on the offense.

If you need a second to swap bars two times you are still doing it wrong.
You know, you cancel skills with weapon swaps...

Minalan

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

You mean someone "going fully defensive" isn't doing any damage?
Besides, if you need a second to swap bars you are doing it wrong.

I'm counting the time to swap back as well, you're not going offensive on your buff bar FFS.

People pretend that shields are like dodge rolling, press one button on your mouse and all of the sudden it's three seconds of god-mode while you're still strong on the offense.

Put two shields on mainbar. Profit.

And nobody said you´re still strong on the offense. The ability to stalemate everyone even if you´re an absolutely terrible player is the problem.

If you can't count to five and CC, I suppose it is a stalemate. That's hardly the fault of the Sorc. It's also costly to double stack, stop pretending that the 'stalemate' is permanent. I'm sorry a sorc can survive for 20 seconds against you before dying.

Having two shields, entropy, and mage light on the main bar? What do I attack with? Force pulse? Hahahaha!

Fact is light armor and hardened ward alone aren't viable defenses even in a 1v1. I'm sure you want to just run them over easy, and that's fun for you and all of the nightblades. But it doesn't make a viable class.

Minalan

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

ToRelax wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

You mean someone "going fully defensive" isn't doing any damage?
Besides, if you need a second to swap bars you are doing it wrong.

I'm counting the time to swap back as well, you're not going offensive on your buff bar FFS.

People pretend that shields are like dodge rolling, press one button on your mouse and all of the sudden it's three seconds of god-mode while you're still strong on the offense.

If you need a second to swap bars two times you are still doing it wrong.
You know, you cancel skills with weapon swaps...

Are you really dithering about less than half a second?

The forum warrioring here is getting pathetic.

Here's what it boils down to:
If you have 200+ ping. I'm right.
If you have <100 ping. You're right.

I play on TF unfortunately. So yes. Weapon swaps take about a half second each to go back and forth.

Derra

Other

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

You mean someone "going fully defensive" isn't doing any damage?
Besides, if you need a second to swap bars you are doing it wrong.

I'm counting the time to swap back as well, you're not going offensive on your buff bar FFS.

People pretend that shields are like dodge rolling, press one button on your mouse and all of the sudden it's three seconds of god-mode while you're still strong on the offense.

Put two shields on mainbar. Profit.

And nobody said you´re still strong on the offense. The ability to stalemate everyone even if you´re an absolutely terrible player is the problem.

If you can't count to five and CC, I suppose it is a stalemate. That's hardly the fault of the Sorc. It's also costly to double stack, stop pretending that the 'stalemate' is permanent. I'm sorry a sorc can survive for 20 seconds against you before dying.

Having two shields, entropy, and mage light on the main bar? What do I attack with? Force pulse? Hahahaha!

Fact is light armor and hardened ward alone aren't viable defenses even in a 1v1. I'm sure you want to just run them over easy, and that's fun for you and all of the nightblades. But it doesn't make a viable class.

Are you unable to read? There is no counting to 5. If you want to stalemate someone you do exactly one thing. You recast shields when needed and definetly before someone can cc you and dmg your health.
There are no shields running out after 5 seconds.

Also nice presenting personal experience as facts. I can stay alive with only hardened. Make of it what you want.

Derra

Other

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra for the most part you shouldn't be able to beat any pro without them making a mistake.

My last 3 duels were against some bamfs. One was a shield stacker, guess what? After 25 min dueling he made a mistake and died.

I don´t duel at all. I don´t consider that pvping honestly. It cut´s down the biggest advantage of my class by having an absolutely tiny radius.

Minalan

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

You mean someone "going fully defensive" isn't doing any damage?
Besides, if you need a second to swap bars you are doing it wrong.

I'm counting the time to swap back as well, you're not going offensive on your buff bar FFS.

People pretend that shields are like dodge rolling, press one button on your mouse and all of the sudden it's three seconds of god-mode while you're still strong on the offense.

Put two shields on mainbar. Profit.

And nobody said you´re still strong on the offense. The ability to stalemate everyone even if you´re an absolutely terrible player is the problem.

If you can't count to five and CC, I suppose it is a stalemate. That's hardly the fault of the Sorc. It's also costly to double stack, stop pretending that the 'stalemate' is permanent. I'm sorry a sorc can survive for 20 seconds against you before dying.

Having two shields, entropy, and mage light on the main bar? What do I attack with? Force pulse? Hahahaha!

Fact is light armor and hardened ward alone aren't viable defenses even in a 1v1. I'm sure you want to just run them over easy, and that's fun for you and all of the nightblades. But it doesn't make a viable class.

Are you unable to read? There is no counting to 5. If you want to stalemate someone you do exactly one thing. You recast shields when needed and definetly before someone can cc you and dmg your health.
There are no shields running out after 5 seconds.

Also nice presenting personal experience as facts. I can stay alive with only hardened. Make of it what you want.

Well, you don't consider 1v1 as PVP, I'm not surprised. I don't really consider Zerg surfing or group farming PVP. So there's that.

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra for the most part you shouldn't be able to beat any pro without them making a mistake.

My last 3 duels were against some bamfs. One was a shield stacker, guess what? After 25 min dueling he made a mistake and died.

I don´t duel at all. I don´t consider that pvping honestly. It cut´s down the biggest advantage of my class by having an absolutely tiny radius.

I love to duel, I spent all morning watching and fighting. There's no way you can stand up in some of those fights with one shield. Just because you don't like my playstyle doesn't invalidate it.

I'll admit double stacking is slightly over tuned (like block tanking) in a 1v1. But without it, the class would be wrecked for anything but large group play when you hope the other team isn't targeting you, or you have templars spamming BOL to keep you alive.

Light armor is no armor, armor pen (sharpened weapons) is too high. Even with impen you die quickly, most stam people are packing enough pen to knock light armor with boundless storm up to nothing, and damage is currently WAY too high in this meta.

In short, we'll have to agree to disagree. There's no changing either of our minds.

Derra

Other

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

You mean someone "going fully defensive" isn't doing any damage?
Besides, if you need a second to swap bars you are doing it wrong.

I'm counting the time to swap back as well, you're not going offensive on your buff bar FFS.

People pretend that shields are like dodge rolling, press one button on your mouse and all of the sudden it's three seconds of god-mode while you're still strong on the offense.

Put two shields on mainbar. Profit.

And nobody said you´re still strong on the offense. The ability to stalemate everyone even if you´re an absolutely terrible player is the problem.

If you can't count to five and CC, I suppose it is a stalemate. That's hardly the fault of the Sorc. It's also costly to double stack, stop pretending that the 'stalemate' is permanent. I'm sorry a sorc can survive for 20 seconds against you before dying.

Having two shields, entropy, and mage light on the main bar? What do I attack with? Force pulse? Hahahaha!

Fact is light armor and hardened ward alone aren't viable defenses even in a 1v1. I'm sure you want to just run them over easy, and that's fun for you and all of the nightblades. But it doesn't make a viable class.

Are you unable to read? There is no counting to 5. If you want to stalemate someone you do exactly one thing. You recast shields when needed and definetly before someone can cc you and dmg your health.
There are no shields running out after 5 seconds.

Also nice presenting personal experience as facts. I can stay alive with only hardened. Make of it what you want.

Well, you don't consider 1v1 as PVP, I'm not surprised. I don't really consider Zerg surfing or group farming PVP. So there's that.

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra for the most part you shouldn't be able to beat any pro without them making a mistake.

My last 3 duels were against some bamfs. One was a shield stacker, guess what? After 25 min dueling he made a mistake and died.

I don´t duel at all. I don´t consider that pvping honestly. It cut´s down the biggest advantage of my class by having an absolutely tiny radius.

I love to duel, I spent all morning watching and fighting. There's no way you can stand up in some of those fights with one shield. Just because you don't like my playstyle doesn't invalidate it.

I'll admit double stacking is slightly over tuned (like block tanking) in a 1v1. But without it, the class would be wrecked for anything but large group play when you hope the other team isn't targeting you, or you have templars spamming BOL to keep you alive.

Light armor is no armor, armor pen (sharpened weapons) is too high. Even with impen you die quickly, most stam people are packing enough pen to knock light armor with boundless storm up to nothing, and damage is currently WAY too high in this meta.

In short, we'll have to agree to disagree. There's no changing either of our minds.

I have 1v1 all the time.
Dueling =/= 1v1 in open world. Dueling has specific builds that allow for minimum regeneration and maximum cheese. Nobody i know who is serious about dueling is running their dueling builds (because the people mostly have multiple to change according to opponent, aswell as the needed poisons) in open world cyrodiil.
No i´m sorry i don´t consider switching gear an skills before a fight to accomodate the opponent the same type of pvp found in cyrodiil (that´s why i make a destinction between dueling and pvp - which equals open world for me) and i simply don´t enjoy it bc it does not allow me to play to the strenghs of my class. That´s why i don´t duel.

You´re just misinterpreting everything i say in the attempt to validate your point and invalidate mine.
I´m saying: You can 1v1 and pvp perfectly fine in any form or shape without harness/ dampen. Even dueling (i know bc i´ve done it aswell - just bc i don´t enjoy it and don´t do it does not mean i´ve never done it).

Just because you can´t stay alive without doublestacking does not mean the class can´t. I know a few sorcs who can and all of them consider doublestacking a crutch mechanic allowing players to overachieve on any level.

Lord-Otto

Try to adapt to the changes

I gotta say, though, Derra, yesterday I was careless and looking at my phone, riding to Glademist. A 561 and 110 dude dragged me from my horse. Even though I could somewhat react and shield up, all three shields just melted under Viper's Sting. Those weren't good players and I got my revenge two minutes later, but still... The amount of damage their armor put out was frightening.
I really don't think single, let alone NO, shields in standard Cyrodiil is viable.

Derra

Other

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I gotta say, though, Derra, yesterday I was careless and looking at my phone, riding to Glademist. A 561 and 110 dude dragged me from my horse. Even though I could somewhat react and shield up, all three shields just melted under Viper's Sting. Those weren't good players and I got my revenge two minutes later, but still... The amount of damage their armor put out was frightening.
I really don't think single, let alone NO, shields in standard Cyrodiil is viable.

I´m all for toning down proccsets in pvp aswell. In fact i´d be in favor of removing all amor generated dmg and healing in cyrodiil and dueling. Also things like trollking/pirate should get a revisit on the survivability they offer.

Proccsets are broken does not mean doubleshields should stay broken to counteract them though. That route of thinking just fights imbalance with more imbalance and creates a vicious cycle ultimately creating all forms of unfun pvp mechanics.

Lord-Otto

Try to adapt to the changes

Derra wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I gotta say, though, Derra, yesterday I was careless and looking at my phone, riding to Glademist. A 561 and 110 dude dragged me from my horse. Even though I could somewhat react and shield up, all three shields just melted under Viper's Sting. Those weren't good players and I got my revenge two minutes later, but still... The amount of damage their armor put out was frightening.
I really don't think single, let alone NO, shields in standard Cyrodiil is viable.

I´m all for toning down proccsets in pvp aswell. In fact i´d be in favor of removing all amor generated dmg and healing in cyrodiil and dueling. Also things like trollking/pirate should get a revisit on the survivability they offer.

Proccsets are broken does not mean doubleshields should stay broken to counteract them though. That route of thinking just fights imbalance with more imbalance and creates a vicious cycle ultimately creating all forms of unfun pvp mechanics.

Well, I agree.
I would happily free up slots by running only Hardened. To me, this is not possible in this current meta. Should certain sets get nerfed, I'd happily see a major/minor system implemented for shields.

Minalan

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

You mean someone "going fully defensive" isn't doing any damage?
Besides, if you need a second to swap bars you are doing it wrong.

I'm counting the time to swap back as well, you're not going offensive on your buff bar FFS.

People pretend that shields are like dodge rolling, press one button on your mouse and all of the sudden it's three seconds of god-mode while you're still strong on the offense.

Put two shields on mainbar. Profit.

And nobody said you´re still strong on the offense. The ability to stalemate everyone even if you´re an absolutely terrible player is the problem.

If you can't count to five and CC, I suppose it is a stalemate. That's hardly the fault of the Sorc. It's also costly to double stack, stop pretending that the 'stalemate' is permanent. I'm sorry a sorc can survive for 20 seconds against you before dying.

Having two shields, entropy, and mage light on the main bar? What do I attack with? Force pulse? Hahahaha!

Fact is light armor and hardened ward alone aren't viable defenses even in a 1v1. I'm sure you want to just run them over easy, and that's fun for you and all of the nightblades. But it doesn't make a viable class.

Are you unable to read? There is no counting to 5. If you want to stalemate someone you do exactly one thing. You recast shields when needed and definetly before someone can cc you and dmg your health.
There are no shields running out after 5 seconds.

Also nice presenting personal experience as facts. I can stay alive with only hardened. Make of it what you want.

Well, you don't consider 1v1 as PVP, I'm not surprised. I don't really consider Zerg surfing or group farming PVP. So there's that.

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra for the most part you shouldn't be able to beat any pro without them making a mistake.

My last 3 duels were against some bamfs. One was a shield stacker, guess what? After 25 min dueling he made a mistake and died.

I don´t duel at all. I don´t consider that pvping honestly. It cut´s down the biggest advantage of my class by having an absolutely tiny radius.

I love to duel, I spent all morning watching and fighting. There's no way you can stand up in some of those fights with one shield. Just because you don't like my playstyle doesn't invalidate it.

I'll admit double stacking is slightly over tuned (like block tanking) in a 1v1. But without it, the class would be wrecked for anything but large group play when you hope the other team isn't targeting you, or you have templars spamming BOL to keep you alive.

Light armor is no armor, armor pen (sharpened weapons) is too high. Even with impen you die quickly, most stam people are packing enough pen to knock light armor with boundless storm up to nothing, and damage is currently WAY too high in this meta.

In short, we'll have to agree to disagree. There's no changing either of our minds.

I have 1v1 all the time.
Dueling =/= 1v1 in open world. Dueling has specific builds that allow for minimum regeneration and maximum cheese. Nobody i know who is serious about dueling is running their dueling builds (because the people mostly have multiple to change according to opponent, aswell as the needed poisons) in open world cyrodiil.
No i´m sorry i don´t consider switching gear an skills before a fight to accomodate the opponent the same type of pvp found in cyrodiil (that´s why i make a destinction between dueling and pvp - which equals open world for me) and i simply don´t enjoy it bc it does not allow me to play to the strenghs of my class. That´s why i don´t duel.

You´re just misinterpreting everything i say in the attempt to validate your point and invalidate mine.
I´m saying: You can 1v1 and pvp perfectly fine in any form or shape without harness/ dampen. Even dueling (i know bc i´ve done it aswell - just bc i don´t enjoy it and don´t do it does not mean i´ve never done it).

Just because you can´t stay alive without doublestacking does not mean the class can´t. I know a few sorcs who can and all of them consider doublestacking a crutch mechanic allowing players to overachieve on any level.

Derra, just STFU for once. You're out of your depth here, in addition to being wrong. You've probably never gone to a dueling tournament or even watched one.

The best dueling sorcs double stack. Period. If any of your "friend" say Alex is bad, or Faso is bad. Because they use a 'crutch'. It's probably because they can't beat them and they're crying. And I bet they sound just like you.

https://youtu.be/XYBg2yz8oFE

We don't have the sustain to keep two shields up forever, so clever players only double stack under extreme pressure or burst. When you're on the offense you use one.

And you're saying this doesn't apply to open world? Have you ever played solo, and just ran around picking fights with two or three player groups? Do I need to post more videos?

Minalan

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I gotta say, though, Derra, yesterday I was careless and looking at my phone, riding to Glademist. A 561 and 110 dude dragged me from my horse. Even though I could somewhat react and shield up, all three shields just melted under Viper's Sting. Those weren't good players and I got my revenge two minutes later, but still... The amount of damage their armor put out was frightening.
I really don't think single, let alone NO, shields in standard Cyrodiil is viable.

I´m all for toning down proccsets in pvp aswell. In fact i´d be in favor of removing all amor generated dmg and healing in cyrodiil and dueling. Also things like trollking/pirate should get a revisit on the survivability they offer.

Proccsets are broken does not mean doubleshields should stay broken to counteract them though. That route of thinking just fights imbalance with more imbalance and creates a vicious cycle ultimately creating all forms of unfun pvp mechanics.

Well, I agree.
I would happily free up slots by running only Hardened. To me, this is not possible in this current meta. Should certain sets get nerfed, I'd happily see a major/minor system implemented for shields.

1. They haven't fixed proc sets, they don't crit on shields anyways and they melt shields NOW. The only change made is... they don't crit. People still run multiple proc sets. You will still take enough shield damage instantly on any one attack to take your shield down and frequently eat into health.

2. They haven't fixed seriously broken sets like Meridias or Tremorscale. You will be permanently snared, or attacks missing 50% of the time.

I'd love to free up a slot too, but I don't see it happening. I don't see a major/minor system in the works. I don't see ZOS addressing the worst sets they put into the game. And I don't see a proc set global proc cooldown going in for the next 4-5 month cycle.

Lord-Otto

Try to adapt to the changes

Minalan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I gotta say, though, Derra, yesterday I was careless and looking at my phone, riding to Glademist. A 561 and 110 dude dragged me from my horse. Even though I could somewhat react and shield up, all three shields just melted under Viper's Sting. Those weren't good players and I got my revenge two minutes later, but still... The amount of damage their armor put out was frightening.
I really don't think single, let alone NO, shields in standard Cyrodiil is viable.

I´m all for toning down proccsets in pvp aswell. In fact i´d be in favor of removing all amor generated dmg and healing in cyrodiil and dueling. Also things like trollking/pirate should get a revisit on the survivability they offer.

Proccsets are broken does not mean doubleshields should stay broken to counteract them though. That route of thinking just fights imbalance with more imbalance and creates a vicious cycle ultimately creating all forms of unfun pvp mechanics.

Well, I agree.
I would happily free up slots by running only Hardened. To me, this is not possible in this current meta. Should certain sets get nerfed, I'd happily see a major/minor system implemented for shields.

1. They haven't fixed proc sets, they don't crit on shields anyways and they melt shields NOW. The only change made is... they don't crit. People still run multiple proc sets. You will still take enough shield damage instantly on any one attack to take your shield down and frequently eat into health.

2. They haven't fixed seriously broken sets like Meridias or Tremorscale. You will be permanently snared, or attacks missing 50% of the time.

I'd love to free up a slot too, but I don't see it happening. I don't see a major/minor system in the works. I don't see ZOS addressing the worst sets they put into the game. And I don't see a proc set global proc cooldown going in for the next 4-5 month cycle.

Yeah, shields should get a buff to compensate for a major/minor system.
With nerf to procs I don't mean the crit hypocrisy, but a real nerf. (^_-)
And Shieldbreaker... My god, what were they thinking?
Anyway, it would be a bit of work and surely cannot be attained if you bring out a balance patch twice a year. We know that.

Derra

Other

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

You mean someone "going fully defensive" isn't doing any damage?
Besides, if you need a second to swap bars you are doing it wrong.

I'm counting the time to swap back as well, you're not going offensive on your buff bar FFS.

People pretend that shields are like dodge rolling, press one button on your mouse and all of the sudden it's three seconds of god-mode while you're still strong on the offense.

Put two shields on mainbar. Profit.

And nobody said you´re still strong on the offense. The ability to stalemate everyone even if you´re an absolutely terrible player is the problem.

If you can't count to five and CC, I suppose it is a stalemate. That's hardly the fault of the Sorc. It's also costly to double stack, stop pretending that the 'stalemate' is permanent. I'm sorry a sorc can survive for 20 seconds against you before dying.

Having two shields, entropy, and mage light on the main bar? What do I attack with? Force pulse? Hahahaha!

Fact is light armor and hardened ward alone aren't viable defenses even in a 1v1. I'm sure you want to just run them over easy, and that's fun for you and all of the nightblades. But it doesn't make a viable class.

Are you unable to read? There is no counting to 5. If you want to stalemate someone you do exactly one thing. You recast shields when needed and definetly before someone can cc you and dmg your health.
There are no shields running out after 5 seconds.

Also nice presenting personal experience as facts. I can stay alive with only hardened. Make of it what you want.

Well, you don't consider 1v1 as PVP, I'm not surprised. I don't really consider Zerg surfing or group farming PVP. So there's that.

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra for the most part you shouldn't be able to beat any pro without them making a mistake.

My last 3 duels were against some bamfs. One was a shield stacker, guess what? After 25 min dueling he made a mistake and died.

I don´t duel at all. I don´t consider that pvping honestly. It cut´s down the biggest advantage of my class by having an absolutely tiny radius.

I love to duel, I spent all morning watching and fighting. There's no way you can stand up in some of those fights with one shield. Just because you don't like my playstyle doesn't invalidate it.

I'll admit double stacking is slightly over tuned (like block tanking) in a 1v1. But without it, the class would be wrecked for anything but large group play when you hope the other team isn't targeting you, or you have templars spamming BOL to keep you alive.

Light armor is no armor, armor pen (sharpened weapons) is too high. Even with impen you die quickly, most stam people are packing enough pen to knock light armor with boundless storm up to nothing, and damage is currently WAY too high in this meta.

In short, we'll have to agree to disagree. There's no changing either of our minds.

I have 1v1 all the time.
Dueling =/= 1v1 in open world. Dueling has specific builds that allow for minimum regeneration and maximum cheese. Nobody i know who is serious about dueling is running their dueling builds (because the people mostly have multiple to change according to opponent, aswell as the needed poisons) in open world cyrodiil.
No i´m sorry i don´t consider switching gear an skills before a fight to accomodate the opponent the same type of pvp found in cyrodiil (that´s why i make a destinction between dueling and pvp - which equals open world for me) and i simply don´t enjoy it bc it does not allow me to play to the strenghs of my class. That´s why i don´t duel.

You´re just misinterpreting everything i say in the attempt to validate your point and invalidate mine.
I´m saying: You can 1v1 and pvp perfectly fine in any form or shape without harness/ dampen. Even dueling (i know bc i´ve done it aswell - just bc i don´t enjoy it and don´t do it does not mean i´ve never done it).

Just because you can´t stay alive without doublestacking does not mean the class can´t. I know a few sorcs who can and all of them consider doublestacking a crutch mechanic allowing players to overachieve on any level.

Derra, just STFU for once. You're out of your depth here, in addition to being wrong. You've probably never gone to a dueling tournament or even watched one.

The best dueling sorcs double stack. Period. If any of your "friend" say Alex is bad, or Faso is bad. Because they use a 'crutch'. It's probably because they can't beat them and they're crying. And I bet they sound just like you.

https://youtu.be/XYBg2yz8oFE

We don't have the sustain to keep two shields up forever, so clever players only double stack under extreme pressure or burst. When you're on the offense you use one.

And you're saying this doesn't apply to open world? Have you ever played solo, and just ran around picking fights with two or three player groups? Do I need to post more videos?

Reading comprehension. Allows you to overachieve on every level. Ofc you´re going to use it in a tournament that does have rules to specifically cut down advantages of your class. It´s obviously better than using a single shield. But it´s not needed and lets poor players aswell as average ones perform better than otherwise.

I don´t play on the US server.

I´m not wrong just because you can´t even imagine that the class might work without stacking two shields. I think someone who´s that limited on the perceived performance of their class is more out of their depth than i am

But if you wish you can just ask legendary mage if he thinks i´m a bad sorc. We´ve dueled plenty back in the day (edit: i´ve just noticed i´ve beaten atleast 3 of the players showcased in the video with using only one shield).

CyrusArya

Try to adapt to the changes

Derra wrote: »

I honestly think anyone not thinking shieldstacking is broken op at this point is living in denial. You can´t kill someone with three shields unless they´ve made a terrible mistake.

Maybe you can't, but I assure you I can smash through any players shield stack with a dual wield dot build on a stamina templar, DK, or sorc. I think you're the one in denial for extrapolating your experience with top sorcs to be representative of the entire class. Yes, a top tier sorc with a top tier build can sustain very well and even get by using only one shield. But if you play the same game I do, this is not the case for the vast, vast (90+%) majority of sorcs who get destroyed even with their shield stacks. You remove stacking without compensation and you kill the class for the majority of its player base.

ZOS is aware of this and balance the game around the median, not dillusional top sorcs that think their experience and ability with the class is representative and valid grounds to gut the classes defensive mechanics for the majority of its players. They also said they support shield stacking when they nerfed shield durations.

And that was before the introduction of proc sets. /discussion.

Derra

Other

CyrusArya wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I honestly think anyone not thinking shieldstacking is broken op at this point is living in denial. You can´t kill someone with three shields unless they´ve made a terrible mistake.

Maybe you can't, but I assure you I can smash through any players shield stack with a dual wield dot build on a stamina templar, DK, or sorc. I think you're the one in denial for extrapolating your experience with top sorcs to be representative of the entire class. Yes, a top tier sorc with a top tier build can sustain very well and even get by using only one shield. But if you play the same game I do, this is not the case for the vast, vast (90+%) majority of sorcs who get destroyed even with their shield stacks. You remove stacking without compensation and you kill the class for the majority of its player base.

ZOS is aware of this and balance the game around the median, not dillusional top sorcs that think their experience and ability with the class is representative and valid grounds to gut the classes defensive mechanics for the majority of its players. They also said they support shield stacking when they nerfed shield durations.

And that was before the introduction of proc sets. /discussion.

And i simply think they were wrong in supporting that?

A bad stamblade dies in seconds. A bad stamdk dies in seconds. A sorc can last much longer than the other two. The only thing lasting longer than a sorc is a heavy templar most of the time (and i´m not a fan of those either).

Btw with your way of arguing (the vast majority) - streak would have never been nerfed. The vast majority of sorcs never utilized it´s potential and died anyway.
It got nerfed because of overachievers and the same has not happened to shieldstacking simply because zos does most likely not figure in 1v1 situations.

CyrusArya

Try to adapt to the changes

Derra wrote: »

And i simply think they were wrong in supporting that?

A bad stamblade dies in seconds. A bad stamdk dies in seconds. A sorc can last much longer than the other two. The only thing lasting longer than a sorc is a heavy templar most of the time (and i´m not a fan of those either).

Btw with your way of arguing (the vast majority) - streak would have never been nerfed. The vast majority of sorcs never utilized it´s potential and died anyway.
It got nerfed because of overachievers and the same has not happened to shieldstacking simply because zos does most likely not figure in 1v1 situations.

Streak got nerfed cus there is no counterplay to it if you get outside 1 gap closers range, so it had to be artificially limited. You can agree to disagree, but shield stacking does have counters in my experience. Shieldbreaker, shattering blows, trap beast, DoT pressure, and properly timed reflects are a few aside from the general concept of pressuring a sorcs stamina pool.

Derra

Other

CyrusArya wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

And i simply think they were wrong in supporting that?

A bad stamblade dies in seconds. A bad stamdk dies in seconds. A sorc can last much longer than the other two. The only thing lasting longer than a sorc is a heavy templar most of the time (and i´m not a fan of those either).

Btw with your way of arguing (the vast majority) - streak would have never been nerfed. The vast majority of sorcs never utilized it´s potential and died anyway.
It got nerfed because of overachievers and the same has not happened to shieldstacking simply because zos does most likely not figure in 1v1 situations.

Streak got nerfed cus there is no counterplay to it if you get outside 1 gap closers range, so it had to be artificially limited. You can agree to disagree, but shield stacking does have counters in my experience. Shieldbreaker, shattering blows, trap beast, DoT pressure, and properly timed reflects are a few aside from the general concept of pressuring a sorcs stamina pool.

All of the "counters" you´re mentioning are ironically stamina exclusive apart from shattering blows - which reduces your general combat effectiveness when invested too heavy into.

The worst thing you can do against a shieldstacking sorc is dotpressure them with magica dots (as that guarantees they gain ~1200 magica for every harness they cast).

Also streak has still no counter if you get out of gapcloser range ._.

Edit: Btw i´m all for compensation - just not on class level. I think shieldstacking is broken because it enables sorc to run light armor open world successfully compared to any other class.
With shieldstacking gone zos could finally adress light armor in a way to create an enjoyable pvp experience for DK and templar aswell.