What will you do with your Sorc after update 13?

Derra · January 2017

Other

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@Minalan brother, stop it, you look quite uneducated compared to @Derra ...

Derra is on point with shieldstacking.

P.S. Actually started to play my sorc since Dark Brotherhood release defensive rune on second bar makes all those velidreth gankets look stupid.

Put it on your Overload bar (if you run it), saves you a slot on your back bar

I´d even consider it backbar worthy for dueling. It disrupts any burst your opponent tries to set up by ccing as soon as their cc immunity runs out.
To effectively kill you they now have to run immovable pots offensively instead of defensively giving you a huge advantage on your own burst windows.

Malamar1229 · January 2017

bro I would never run overload bar in a duel. I always felt the animation was too slow and left a huge window for opponents to screw me.

Plus, my fingers go extremely fast sometimes I feel even faster than the game can process. I can't tell you how many times I have tried to get onto OL bar, use whatever, and swap back out only to find I went too fast and the buff didn't apply, or I find myself pressing too many times and being stuck on OL bar when I should be on resto. gotten me killed too many times.

Minalan · January 2017

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@Derra I have been trying to read through the 5 pages of this argument,
a) When you say shield stacking I assume you mean Ward/Harness and aren't counting Heal Ward/Hard Ward as shield stacking?
b) Also in open world, you're not saying you run with Harness magicka as your 1 shield are you? I used to run with just hard ward on my front bar and I did fine. But I can't imagine just running with harness since most of Cyrodiil is stamina anyway (At least right now), and the shield strength was just too low for my liking. Harness (maybe even ball lightning) I think will gain some popularity in Homestead when the crybads reroll to magicka again.

Also to those parties interested, when I run on my defense bar and use hard ward/harness/heal ward....I am pretty hard pressed to recall a time when I died to another sorc. Usually takes more people jumping in on me, or a stalemate

I mean harness + hardened correct. Shields that can get stacked on top of 100% full HP.

I don´t consider healing + hardened stack as bad because to get a noticeable stack you have to be in the risk of dying in the first place.
On top of that I don´t think healing ward is currently replaceable as it functions as the main heal for sorcs and NBs (i´ve already mentioned ideas for reworking it though).

I run hardened only for open world. I think harness is one of the most broken abilities in the game due to the resorce return mechanics (today theorycrafting around it made me realise just how broken it is).

To your last point, if shields couldn't stack I don't know if I'd call it broken. It's a pretty low shield in pvp (like 7k?) so having high magicka returns is OK in my book. However, I wonder it's potential in Homestead with perma frost staff blocking trollmagplars

It wouldn´t be broken if it could not stack - agreed.

So i correct myself. Harness is broken when used in conjunction with hardened ward allowing you to take full advantage of the magica return against every magica player. Effectively making both shields free to cast on a high magica build.

Edit: @Malamar1229 - i´m not sure if it will be broken with permablocking icestaff mainly because harness scales with max magica AND pieces of light armor worn. It´ll be problematic if someone manages to create a permablocking light armor build. That´s when the fun starts. Oh boy.

Answer this: Is the stacking OP on the annulment morph without the return? It's a 10K or so shield, and doesn't return any magicka. That's what I stack when under pressure, the downside is the expense of two shields. Your argument so far is based on magicka return only. Not the size. Not the terrible duration.

I'd love to have one shield that could survive most stamina burst openers. Sadly we don't.

We'll already have something close to a permablock build with desert rose. That's going to be extremely strong.

Lord-Otto · January 2017

Try to adapt to the changes

Just wanna say that taking down shields with a mag character is hell, almost impossible withoug ult.
But stamina procs do indeed burn through 'em.

Jawasa · January 2017

My point is that seeing you on the forums all the time i can see that you react very harsh to changes you dont like. You also answear people that do not agree with you with anger or condesending remarks just look back in this threads 5 pages. This makes you look bad and takes away from the ,many times you make sense and have a good point.

Regarding mines I know that my magica builds can remove them with mist but even heavy stamina builds put them self in danger when moving into a minefield just look at the duel video you posted.

Pallio · January 2017

Play a new class

He will keep the house clean while spamming "9 trait crafter looking for work".

Ishammael · January 2017

Wow this thread is great.

Some real talk from @derra about shields. He and I don't often agree here on the forums, but he is absolutely spot on about shields here.

Re: wings. This skill is incredibly bugged such that it is less and less useful. Now that it doesn't reflect crushing shock I expect the few players even running mDK to drop the skill from their bars.

Edit: @minalan you may consider less insults when discussing balance and skills in the future. The way you have responded and interacted with Derra here is pretty immature.

Lord-Otto · January 2017

Try to adapt to the changes

Ishammael wrote: »

Wow this thread is great.

Some real talk from @derra about shields. He and I don't often agree here on the forums, but he is absolutely spot on about shields here.

Re: wings. This skill is incredibly bugged such that it is less and less useful. Now that it doesn't reflect crushing shock I expect the few players even running mDK to drop the skill from their bars.

Edit: @minalan you may consider less insults when discussing balance and skills in the future. The way you have responded and interacted with Derra here is pretty immature.

But using one shield only in normal PvP makes you super weak to stam burst. And you can always expect several players to hit you at once. Stacking shields is important to survive that.

Father_X_Zombie · January 2017

Other

Damn, I made this thread because I wanted too see if Sorcs would be dead because of the curse change (I know it got reverted) but this thread is getting interesting. Alot more votes for the Joe Biden reality show option then I thought too.

*continues eating popcorn*

Derra · January 2017

Other

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@Derra I have been trying to read through the 5 pages of this argument,
a) When you say shield stacking I assume you mean Ward/Harness and aren't counting Heal Ward/Hard Ward as shield stacking?
b) Also in open world, you're not saying you run with Harness magicka as your 1 shield are you? I used to run with just hard ward on my front bar and I did fine. But I can't imagine just running with harness since most of Cyrodiil is stamina anyway (At least right now), and the shield strength was just too low for my liking. Harness (maybe even ball lightning) I think will gain some popularity in Homestead when the crybads reroll to magicka again.

Also to those parties interested, when I run on my defense bar and use hard ward/harness/heal ward....I am pretty hard pressed to recall a time when I died to another sorc. Usually takes more people jumping in on me, or a stalemate

I mean harness + hardened correct. Shields that can get stacked on top of 100% full HP.

I don´t consider healing + hardened stack as bad because to get a noticeable stack you have to be in the risk of dying in the first place.
On top of that I don´t think healing ward is currently replaceable as it functions as the main heal for sorcs and NBs (i´ve already mentioned ideas for reworking it though).

I run hardened only for open world. I think harness is one of the most broken abilities in the game due to the resorce return mechanics (today theorycrafting around it made me realise just how broken it is).

To your last point, if shields couldn't stack I don't know if I'd call it broken. It's a pretty low shield in pvp (like 7k?) so having high magicka returns is OK in my book. However, I wonder it's potential in Homestead with perma frost staff blocking trollmagplars

It wouldn´t be broken if it could not stack - agreed.

So i correct myself. Harness is broken when used in conjunction with hardened ward allowing you to take full advantage of the magica return against every magica player. Effectively making both shields free to cast on a high magica build.

Edit: @Malamar1229 - i´m not sure if it will be broken with permablocking icestaff mainly because harness scales with max magica AND pieces of light armor worn. It´ll be problematic if someone manages to create a permablocking light armor build. That´s when the fun starts. Oh boy.

Answer this: Is the stacking OP on the annulment morph without the return? It's a 10K or so shield, and doesn't return any magicka. That's what I stack when under pressure, the downside is the expense of two shields. Your argument so far is based on magicka return only. Not the size. Not the terrible duration.

I'd love to have one shield that could survive most stamina burst openers. Sadly we don't.

We'll already have something close to a permablock build with desert rose. That's going to be extremely strong.

I´d say hardened + dampen is tricky because it depends on the opponent having slotted a magica cost increase poison (atleast for the builds i´m running). This depends a lot more on your general build - you need enough magica regen to sustain your shields.
At about 2000 magica regen + potion it should be almost infinetly sustainable aswell unless you´re getting poisoned by 10s magica cost increase.
However for short duration fights hardened + dampen can give you even better defense than harness.
I don´t really have an opinion on that one because i´ve not used it myself and i very rarely see other sorcs using dampen (because harness is so much better).

In general i would like the option of stacking harness/dampen + hardened (not healing ward - but that should see a rework maybe) removed and light armor given a buff in the defensive department to make it a more compelling armor choice for magblade, magDK and Magplar.
I think magica sorc shieldstacking masks light armor shortcomings so well that it´s hard for zos to buff that armor choice without completely overpowering sorcs.

Stamina burst from stealth is a completely different topic - also deserving attention. But that´s again arguing for one imbalance to counteract the other. I´m not against stamburst per se - but i don´t think they (or anyone) should be able to be permanently invisible in pvp.
It´s either:
a) adress the dmg
b) adress the stun
c) adress permanent sneak
One of those has to be looked at imo.

GrigorijMalahevich · January 2017

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@Minalan brother, stop it, you look quite uneducated compared to @Derra ...

Derra is on point with shieldstacking.

P.S. Actually started to play my sorc since Dark Brotherhood release defensive rune on second bar makes all those velidreth gankets look stupid.

Put it on your Overload bar (if you run it), saves you a slot on your back bar

I´d even consider it backbar worthy for dueling. It disrupts any burst your opponent tries to set up by ccing as soon as their cc immunity runs out.
To effectively kill you they now have to run immovable pots offensively instead of defensively giving you a huge advantage on your own burst windows.

Exactly, plus if you are fighting pet sorc in the current meta, you can literally disable pets. Skill is super cheap.

Also, would like to mention, that when you are fighting outnumbered and someone gets CC'ed quite often people don't react immediately, they just stand there for couple of seconds just looking at your character and pressing abilities...

Derra · January 2017

Other

Valera Progib wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@Minalan brother, stop it, you look quite uneducated compared to @Derra ...

Derra is on point with shieldstacking.

P.S. Actually started to play my sorc since Dark Brotherhood release defensive rune on second bar makes all those velidreth gankets look stupid.

Put it on your Overload bar (if you run it), saves you a slot on your back bar

I´d even consider it backbar worthy for dueling. It disrupts any burst your opponent tries to set up by ccing as soon as their cc immunity runs out.
To effectively kill you they now have to run immovable pots offensively instead of defensively giving you a huge advantage on your own burst windows.

Exactly, plus if you are fighting pet sorc in the current meta, you can literally disable pets. Skill is super cheap.

Also, would like to mention, that when you are fighting outnumbered and someone gets CC'ed quite often people don't react immediately, they just stand there for couple of seconds just looking at your character and pressing abilities...

I personally enjoy mines against petsorcs. The familiar dies inevitably when walking into mines. It´s a huge chore keeping recasting him and it gets worse when you kill the twilight while the familiar gets recasted.

Imryll · January 2017

Try to adapt to the changes

Always adapting ...

Izaki · January 2017

Continue to play as it is

Wait so does the new curse blow up at 3.5 seconds and then at 8.5 or at 12? Big question here.

Minalan · January 2017

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@Derra I have been trying to read through the 5 pages of this argument,
a) When you say shield stacking I assume you mean Ward/Harness and aren't counting Heal Ward/Hard Ward as shield stacking?
b) Also in open world, you're not saying you run with Harness magicka as your 1 shield are you? I used to run with just hard ward on my front bar and I did fine. But I can't imagine just running with harness since most of Cyrodiil is stamina anyway (At least right now), and the shield strength was just too low for my liking. Harness (maybe even ball lightning) I think will gain some popularity in Homestead when the crybads reroll to magicka again.

Also to those parties interested, when I run on my defense bar and use hard ward/harness/heal ward....I am pretty hard pressed to recall a time when I died to another sorc. Usually takes more people jumping in on me, or a stalemate

I mean harness + hardened correct. Shields that can get stacked on top of 100% full HP.

I don´t consider healing + hardened stack as bad because to get a noticeable stack you have to be in the risk of dying in the first place.
On top of that I don´t think healing ward is currently replaceable as it functions as the main heal for sorcs and NBs (i´ve already mentioned ideas for reworking it though).

I run hardened only for open world. I think harness is one of the most broken abilities in the game due to the resorce return mechanics (today theorycrafting around it made me realise just how broken it is).

To your last point, if shields couldn't stack I don't know if I'd call it broken. It's a pretty low shield in pvp (like 7k?) so having high magicka returns is OK in my book. However, I wonder it's potential in Homestead with perma frost staff blocking trollmagplars

It wouldn´t be broken if it could not stack - agreed.

So i correct myself. Harness is broken when used in conjunction with hardened ward allowing you to take full advantage of the magica return against every magica player. Effectively making both shields free to cast on a high magica build.

Edit: @Malamar1229 - i´m not sure if it will be broken with permablocking icestaff mainly because harness scales with max magica AND pieces of light armor worn. It´ll be problematic if someone manages to create a permablocking light armor build. That´s when the fun starts. Oh boy.

Answer this: Is the stacking OP on the annulment morph without the return? It's a 10K or so shield, and doesn't return any magicka. That's what I stack when under pressure, the downside is the expense of two shields. Your argument so far is based on magicka return only. Not the size. Not the terrible duration.

I'd love to have one shield that could survive most stamina burst openers. Sadly we don't.

We'll already have something close to a permablock build with desert rose. That's going to be extremely strong.

I´d say hardened + dampen is tricky because it depends on the opponent having slotted a magica cost increase poison (atleast for the builds i´m running). This depends a lot more on your general build - you need enough magica regen to sustain your shields.
At about 2000 magica regen + potion it should be almost infinetly sustainable aswell unless you´re getting poisoned by 10s magica cost increase.
However for short duration fights hardened + dampen can give you even better defense than harness.
I don´t really have an opinion on that one because i´ve not used it myself and i very rarely see other sorcs using dampen (because harness is so much better).

In general i would like the option of stacking harness/dampen + hardened (not healing ward - but that should see a rework maybe) removed and light armor given a buff in the defensive department to make it a more compelling armor choice for magblade, magDK and Magplar.
I think magica sorc shieldstacking masks light armor shortcomings so well that it´s hard for zos to buff that armor choice without completely overpowering sorcs.

Stamina burst from stealth is a completely different topic - also deserving attention. But that´s again arguing for one imbalance to counteract the other. I´m not against stamburst per se - but i don´t think they (or anyone) should be able to be permanently invisible in pvp.
It´s either:
a) adress the dmg
b) adress the stun
c) adress permanent sneak
One of those has to be looked at imo.

I don't see any easy way to fix light armor. You can't just add armor rating to it, because it's supposed to be worse than heavy. Penetration in the game was tuned way too high after DB patch, and it's been bad ever since.

If you removed stacking you would need some kind of passive to increase shield strength and duration. Just ten percent and two seconds would probably do the trick - IF some stam burst was toned down or proc sets had a global CD.

Stam nightblades don't even need to jump out of stealth to kill a sorc with one 12K shield up in a few seconds. With two shields I can at least survive the fear, break it, and heal back up from near death. With one shield it's just death. You don't survive the fear or incap.

Our whole argument started because you claimed the game is playable with one shield.. it's really not unless you're always grouped with a Templar buddy. A class you can't solo play at least a little isn't really a class.

Derra · January 2017

Other

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@Derra I have been trying to read through the 5 pages of this argument,
a) When you say shield stacking I assume you mean Ward/Harness and aren't counting Heal Ward/Hard Ward as shield stacking?
b) Also in open world, you're not saying you run with Harness magicka as your 1 shield are you? I used to run with just hard ward on my front bar and I did fine. But I can't imagine just running with harness since most of Cyrodiil is stamina anyway (At least right now), and the shield strength was just too low for my liking. Harness (maybe even ball lightning) I think will gain some popularity in Homestead when the crybads reroll to magicka again.

Also to those parties interested, when I run on my defense bar and use hard ward/harness/heal ward....I am pretty hard pressed to recall a time when I died to another sorc. Usually takes more people jumping in on me, or a stalemate

I mean harness + hardened correct. Shields that can get stacked on top of 100% full HP.

I don´t consider healing + hardened stack as bad because to get a noticeable stack you have to be in the risk of dying in the first place.
On top of that I don´t think healing ward is currently replaceable as it functions as the main heal for sorcs and NBs (i´ve already mentioned ideas for reworking it though).

I run hardened only for open world. I think harness is one of the most broken abilities in the game due to the resorce return mechanics (today theorycrafting around it made me realise just how broken it is).

To your last point, if shields couldn't stack I don't know if I'd call it broken. It's a pretty low shield in pvp (like 7k?) so having high magicka returns is OK in my book. However, I wonder it's potential in Homestead with perma frost staff blocking trollmagplars

It wouldn´t be broken if it could not stack - agreed.

So i correct myself. Harness is broken when used in conjunction with hardened ward allowing you to take full advantage of the magica return against every magica player. Effectively making both shields free to cast on a high magica build.

Edit: @Malamar1229 - i´m not sure if it will be broken with permablocking icestaff mainly because harness scales with max magica AND pieces of light armor worn. It´ll be problematic if someone manages to create a permablocking light armor build. That´s when the fun starts. Oh boy.

Answer this: Is the stacking OP on the annulment morph without the return? It's a 10K or so shield, and doesn't return any magicka. That's what I stack when under pressure, the downside is the expense of two shields. Your argument so far is based on magicka return only. Not the size. Not the terrible duration.

I'd love to have one shield that could survive most stamina burst openers. Sadly we don't.

We'll already have something close to a permablock build with desert rose. That's going to be extremely strong.

I´d say hardened + dampen is tricky because it depends on the opponent having slotted a magica cost increase poison (atleast for the builds i´m running). This depends a lot more on your general build - you need enough magica regen to sustain your shields.
At about 2000 magica regen + potion it should be almost infinetly sustainable aswell unless you´re getting poisoned by 10s magica cost increase.
However for short duration fights hardened + dampen can give you even better defense than harness.
I don´t really have an opinion on that one because i´ve not used it myself and i very rarely see other sorcs using dampen (because harness is so much better).

In general i would like the option of stacking harness/dampen + hardened (not healing ward - but that should see a rework maybe) removed and light armor given a buff in the defensive department to make it a more compelling armor choice for magblade, magDK and Magplar.
I think magica sorc shieldstacking masks light armor shortcomings so well that it´s hard for zos to buff that armor choice without completely overpowering sorcs.

Stamina burst from stealth is a completely different topic - also deserving attention. But that´s again arguing for one imbalance to counteract the other. I´m not against stamburst per se - but i don´t think they (or anyone) should be able to be permanently invisible in pvp.
It´s either:
a) adress the dmg
b) adress the stun
c) adress permanent sneak
One of those has to be looked at imo.

Our whole argument started because you claimed the game is playable with one shield.. it's really not unless you're always grouped with a Templar buddy. A class you can't solo play at least a little isn't really a class.

It is. I´m doing it every day with only hardened as a main shield

Minalan · January 2017

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@Derra I have been trying to read through the 5 pages of this argument,
a) When you say shield stacking I assume you mean Ward/Harness and aren't counting Heal Ward/Hard Ward as shield stacking?
b) Also in open world, you're not saying you run with Harness magicka as your 1 shield are you? I used to run with just hard ward on my front bar and I did fine. But I can't imagine just running with harness since most of Cyrodiil is stamina anyway (At least right now), and the shield strength was just too low for my liking. Harness (maybe even ball lightning) I think will gain some popularity in Homestead when the crybads reroll to magicka again.

Also to those parties interested, when I run on my defense bar and use hard ward/harness/heal ward....I am pretty hard pressed to recall a time when I died to another sorc. Usually takes more people jumping in on me, or a stalemate

I mean harness + hardened correct. Shields that can get stacked on top of 100% full HP.

I don´t consider healing + hardened stack as bad because to get a noticeable stack you have to be in the risk of dying in the first place.
On top of that I don´t think healing ward is currently replaceable as it functions as the main heal for sorcs and NBs (i´ve already mentioned ideas for reworking it though).

I run hardened only for open world. I think harness is one of the most broken abilities in the game due to the resorce return mechanics (today theorycrafting around it made me realise just how broken it is).

To your last point, if shields couldn't stack I don't know if I'd call it broken. It's a pretty low shield in pvp (like 7k?) so having high magicka returns is OK in my book. However, I wonder it's potential in Homestead with perma frost staff blocking trollmagplars

It wouldn´t be broken if it could not stack - agreed.

So i correct myself. Harness is broken when used in conjunction with hardened ward allowing you to take full advantage of the magica return against every magica player. Effectively making both shields free to cast on a high magica build.

Edit: @Malamar1229 - i´m not sure if it will be broken with permablocking icestaff mainly because harness scales with max magica AND pieces of light armor worn. It´ll be problematic if someone manages to create a permablocking light armor build. That´s when the fun starts. Oh boy.

Answer this: Is the stacking OP on the annulment morph without the return? It's a 10K or so shield, and doesn't return any magicka. That's what I stack when under pressure, the downside is the expense of two shields. Your argument so far is based on magicka return only. Not the size. Not the terrible duration.

I'd love to have one shield that could survive most stamina burst openers. Sadly we don't.

We'll already have something close to a permablock build with desert rose. That's going to be extremely strong.

I´d say hardened + dampen is tricky because it depends on the opponent having slotted a magica cost increase poison (atleast for the builds i´m running). This depends a lot more on your general build - you need enough magica regen to sustain your shields.
At about 2000 magica regen + potion it should be almost infinetly sustainable aswell unless you´re getting poisoned by 10s magica cost increase.
However for short duration fights hardened + dampen can give you even better defense than harness.
I don´t really have an opinion on that one because i´ve not used it myself and i very rarely see other sorcs using dampen (because harness is so much better).

In general i would like the option of stacking harness/dampen + hardened (not healing ward - but that should see a rework maybe) removed and light armor given a buff in the defensive department to make it a more compelling armor choice for magblade, magDK and Magplar.
I think magica sorc shieldstacking masks light armor shortcomings so well that it´s hard for zos to buff that armor choice without completely overpowering sorcs.

Stamina burst from stealth is a completely different topic - also deserving attention. But that´s again arguing for one imbalance to counteract the other. I´m not against stamburst per se - but i don´t think they (or anyone) should be able to be permanently invisible in pvp.
It´s either:
a) adress the dmg
b) adress the stun
c) adress permanent sneak
One of those has to be looked at imo.

Our whole argument started because you claimed the game is playable with one shield.. it's really not unless you're always grouped with a Templar buddy. A class you can't solo play at least a little isn't really a class.

It is. I´m doing it every day with only hardened as a main shield

And... apparently you do great until a nightblade shows up.

Derra · January 2017

Other

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@Derra I have been trying to read through the 5 pages of this argument,
a) When you say shield stacking I assume you mean Ward/Harness and aren't counting Heal Ward/Hard Ward as shield stacking?
b) Also in open world, you're not saying you run with Harness magicka as your 1 shield are you? I used to run with just hard ward on my front bar and I did fine. But I can't imagine just running with harness since most of Cyrodiil is stamina anyway (At least right now), and the shield strength was just too low for my liking. Harness (maybe even ball lightning) I think will gain some popularity in Homestead when the crybads reroll to magicka again.

Also to those parties interested, when I run on my defense bar and use hard ward/harness/heal ward....I am pretty hard pressed to recall a time when I died to another sorc. Usually takes more people jumping in on me, or a stalemate

I mean harness + hardened correct. Shields that can get stacked on top of 100% full HP.

I don´t consider healing + hardened stack as bad because to get a noticeable stack you have to be in the risk of dying in the first place.
On top of that I don´t think healing ward is currently replaceable as it functions as the main heal for sorcs and NBs (i´ve already mentioned ideas for reworking it though).

I run hardened only for open world. I think harness is one of the most broken abilities in the game due to the resorce return mechanics (today theorycrafting around it made me realise just how broken it is).

To your last point, if shields couldn't stack I don't know if I'd call it broken. It's a pretty low shield in pvp (like 7k?) so having high magicka returns is OK in my book. However, I wonder it's potential in Homestead with perma frost staff blocking trollmagplars

It wouldn´t be broken if it could not stack - agreed.

So i correct myself. Harness is broken when used in conjunction with hardened ward allowing you to take full advantage of the magica return against every magica player. Effectively making both shields free to cast on a high magica build.

Edit: @Malamar1229 - i´m not sure if it will be broken with permablocking icestaff mainly because harness scales with max magica AND pieces of light armor worn. It´ll be problematic if someone manages to create a permablocking light armor build. That´s when the fun starts. Oh boy.

Answer this: Is the stacking OP on the annulment morph without the return? It's a 10K or so shield, and doesn't return any magicka. That's what I stack when under pressure, the downside is the expense of two shields. Your argument so far is based on magicka return only. Not the size. Not the terrible duration.

I'd love to have one shield that could survive most stamina burst openers. Sadly we don't.

We'll already have something close to a permablock build with desert rose. That's going to be extremely strong.

I´d say hardened + dampen is tricky because it depends on the opponent having slotted a magica cost increase poison (atleast for the builds i´m running). This depends a lot more on your general build - you need enough magica regen to sustain your shields.
At about 2000 magica regen + potion it should be almost infinetly sustainable aswell unless you´re getting poisoned by 10s magica cost increase.
However for short duration fights hardened + dampen can give you even better defense than harness.
I don´t really have an opinion on that one because i´ve not used it myself and i very rarely see other sorcs using dampen (because harness is so much better).

In general i would like the option of stacking harness/dampen + hardened (not healing ward - but that should see a rework maybe) removed and light armor given a buff in the defensive department to make it a more compelling armor choice for magblade, magDK and Magplar.
I think magica sorc shieldstacking masks light armor shortcomings so well that it´s hard for zos to buff that armor choice without completely overpowering sorcs.

Stamina burst from stealth is a completely different topic - also deserving attention. But that´s again arguing for one imbalance to counteract the other. I´m not against stamburst per se - but i don´t think they (or anyone) should be able to be permanently invisible in pvp.
It´s either:
a) adress the dmg
b) adress the stun
c) adress permanent sneak
One of those has to be looked at imo.

Our whole argument started because you claimed the game is playable with one shield.. it's really not unless you're always grouped with a Templar buddy. A class you can't solo play at least a little isn't really a class.

It is. I´m doing it every day with only hardened as a main shield

And... apparently you do great until a nightblade shows up.

I´m doing pretty good regardless of what shows up.

Minalan · January 2017

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@Derra I have been trying to read through the 5 pages of this argument,
a) When you say shield stacking I assume you mean Ward/Harness and aren't counting Heal Ward/Hard Ward as shield stacking?
b) Also in open world, you're not saying you run with Harness magicka as your 1 shield are you? I used to run with just hard ward on my front bar and I did fine. But I can't imagine just running with harness since most of Cyrodiil is stamina anyway (At least right now), and the shield strength was just too low for my liking. Harness (maybe even ball lightning) I think will gain some popularity in Homestead when the crybads reroll to magicka again.

Also to those parties interested, when I run on my defense bar and use hard ward/harness/heal ward....I am pretty hard pressed to recall a time when I died to another sorc. Usually takes more people jumping in on me, or a stalemate

I mean harness + hardened correct. Shields that can get stacked on top of 100% full HP.

I don´t consider healing + hardened stack as bad because to get a noticeable stack you have to be in the risk of dying in the first place.
On top of that I don´t think healing ward is currently replaceable as it functions as the main heal for sorcs and NBs (i´ve already mentioned ideas for reworking it though).

I run hardened only for open world. I think harness is one of the most broken abilities in the game due to the resorce return mechanics (today theorycrafting around it made me realise just how broken it is).

To your last point, if shields couldn't stack I don't know if I'd call it broken. It's a pretty low shield in pvp (like 7k?) so having high magicka returns is OK in my book. However, I wonder it's potential in Homestead with perma frost staff blocking trollmagplars

It wouldn´t be broken if it could not stack - agreed.

So i correct myself. Harness is broken when used in conjunction with hardened ward allowing you to take full advantage of the magica return against every magica player. Effectively making both shields free to cast on a high magica build.

Edit: @Malamar1229 - i´m not sure if it will be broken with permablocking icestaff mainly because harness scales with max magica AND pieces of light armor worn. It´ll be problematic if someone manages to create a permablocking light armor build. That´s when the fun starts. Oh boy.

Answer this: Is the stacking OP on the annulment morph without the return? It's a 10K or so shield, and doesn't return any magicka. That's what I stack when under pressure, the downside is the expense of two shields. Your argument so far is based on magicka return only. Not the size. Not the terrible duration.

I'd love to have one shield that could survive most stamina burst openers. Sadly we don't.

We'll already have something close to a permablock build with desert rose. That's going to be extremely strong.

I´d say hardened + dampen is tricky because it depends on the opponent having slotted a magica cost increase poison (atleast for the builds i´m running). This depends a lot more on your general build - you need enough magica regen to sustain your shields.
At about 2000 magica regen + potion it should be almost infinetly sustainable aswell unless you´re getting poisoned by 10s magica cost increase.
However for short duration fights hardened + dampen can give you even better defense than harness.
I don´t really have an opinion on that one because i´ve not used it myself and i very rarely see other sorcs using dampen (because harness is so much better).

In general i would like the option of stacking harness/dampen + hardened (not healing ward - but that should see a rework maybe) removed and light armor given a buff in the defensive department to make it a more compelling armor choice for magblade, magDK and Magplar.
I think magica sorc shieldstacking masks light armor shortcomings so well that it´s hard for zos to buff that armor choice without completely overpowering sorcs.

Stamina burst from stealth is a completely different topic - also deserving attention. But that´s again arguing for one imbalance to counteract the other. I´m not against stamburst per se - but i don´t think they (or anyone) should be able to be permanently invisible in pvp.
It´s either:
a) adress the dmg
b) adress the stun
c) adress permanent sneak
One of those has to be looked at imo.

Our whole argument started because you claimed the game is playable with one shield.. it's really not unless you're always grouped with a Templar buddy. A class you can't solo play at least a little isn't really a class.

It is. I´m doing it every day with only hardened as a main shield

And... apparently you do great until a nightblade shows up.

I´m doing pretty good regardless of what shows up.

That's not what you were saying in the Miat thread in the whole counterplay argument. Do you ever run solo on your sorc? Without a group? No healer. No tank? No nightblades of your own?

Half of the AD faction is gankblades on PC TF NA, you can't avoid running into them.

Derra · January 2017

Other

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@Derra I have been trying to read through the 5 pages of this argument,
a) When you say shield stacking I assume you mean Ward/Harness and aren't counting Heal Ward/Hard Ward as shield stacking?
b) Also in open world, you're not saying you run with Harness magicka as your 1 shield are you? I used to run with just hard ward on my front bar and I did fine. But I can't imagine just running with harness since most of Cyrodiil is stamina anyway (At least right now), and the shield strength was just too low for my liking. Harness (maybe even ball lightning) I think will gain some popularity in Homestead when the crybads reroll to magicka again.

Also to those parties interested, when I run on my defense bar and use hard ward/harness/heal ward....I am pretty hard pressed to recall a time when I died to another sorc. Usually takes more people jumping in on me, or a stalemate

I mean harness + hardened correct. Shields that can get stacked on top of 100% full HP.

I don´t consider healing + hardened stack as bad because to get a noticeable stack you have to be in the risk of dying in the first place.
On top of that I don´t think healing ward is currently replaceable as it functions as the main heal for sorcs and NBs (i´ve already mentioned ideas for reworking it though).

I run hardened only for open world. I think harness is one of the most broken abilities in the game due to the resorce return mechanics (today theorycrafting around it made me realise just how broken it is).

To your last point, if shields couldn't stack I don't know if I'd call it broken. It's a pretty low shield in pvp (like 7k?) so having high magicka returns is OK in my book. However, I wonder it's potential in Homestead with perma frost staff blocking trollmagplars

It wouldn´t be broken if it could not stack - agreed.

So i correct myself. Harness is broken when used in conjunction with hardened ward allowing you to take full advantage of the magica return against every magica player. Effectively making both shields free to cast on a high magica build.

Edit: @Malamar1229 - i´m not sure if it will be broken with permablocking icestaff mainly because harness scales with max magica AND pieces of light armor worn. It´ll be problematic if someone manages to create a permablocking light armor build. That´s when the fun starts. Oh boy.

Answer this: Is the stacking OP on the annulment morph without the return? It's a 10K or so shield, and doesn't return any magicka. That's what I stack when under pressure, the downside is the expense of two shields. Your argument so far is based on magicka return only. Not the size. Not the terrible duration.

I'd love to have one shield that could survive most stamina burst openers. Sadly we don't.

We'll already have something close to a permablock build with desert rose. That's going to be extremely strong.

I´d say hardened + dampen is tricky because it depends on the opponent having slotted a magica cost increase poison (atleast for the builds i´m running). This depends a lot more on your general build - you need enough magica regen to sustain your shields.
At about 2000 magica regen + potion it should be almost infinetly sustainable aswell unless you´re getting poisoned by 10s magica cost increase.
However for short duration fights hardened + dampen can give you even better defense than harness.
I don´t really have an opinion on that one because i´ve not used it myself and i very rarely see other sorcs using dampen (because harness is so much better).

In general i would like the option of stacking harness/dampen + hardened (not healing ward - but that should see a rework maybe) removed and light armor given a buff in the defensive department to make it a more compelling armor choice for magblade, magDK and Magplar.
I think magica sorc shieldstacking masks light armor shortcomings so well that it´s hard for zos to buff that armor choice without completely overpowering sorcs.

Stamina burst from stealth is a completely different topic - also deserving attention. But that´s again arguing for one imbalance to counteract the other. I´m not against stamburst per se - but i don´t think they (or anyone) should be able to be permanently invisible in pvp.
It´s either:
a) adress the dmg
b) adress the stun
c) adress permanent sneak
One of those has to be looked at imo.

Our whole argument started because you claimed the game is playable with one shield.. it's really not unless you're always grouped with a Templar buddy. A class you can't solo play at least a little isn't really a class.

It is. I´m doing it every day with only hardened as a main shield

And... apparently you do great until a nightblade shows up.

I´m doing pretty good regardless of what shows up.

That's not what you were saying in the Miat thread in the whole counterplay argument. Do you ever run solo on your sorc? Without a group? No healer. No tank? No nightblades of your own?

Half of the AD faction is gankblades on PC TF NA, you can't avoid running into them.

Now you´re exposing my hidden agenda in getting proccgankers nerfed because they´re the only thing reliably killing me while 1vXing (i´m still in the grieving process of my 73:1 soloing kd ratio of 1.6).

Honestly. I overplay the role of NB gankers every chance i get (for the very same reason you state. AD trueflame EU is 50% proccblades and you never fight them alone - you get multiple proccs from multiple people).
Simply bc it annoys me to no end that i can fight 3 other people and someone can sneak up to me and i go poof while fighting other people.

I´ve probably been ganked successfully ~5 times in total (by a single person) since dark brotherhood went live when i had my hands on mouse and keyboard and was paying attention.
The preparation required to setup a successful gank is immense when ganking a sorc with an active shield and defensive rune. Only happened once - with a bugged procc and the player wanting to prove a point.

This is going to haunt me.

So i´m probably doing the same when talking about gankers what you are doing in regards to not using harness/dampen

Minalan · January 2017

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@Derra I have been trying to read through the 5 pages of this argument,
a) When you say shield stacking I assume you mean Ward/Harness and aren't counting Heal Ward/Hard Ward as shield stacking?
b) Also in open world, you're not saying you run with Harness magicka as your 1 shield are you? I used to run with just hard ward on my front bar and I did fine. But I can't imagine just running with harness since most of Cyrodiil is stamina anyway (At least right now), and the shield strength was just too low for my liking. Harness (maybe even ball lightning) I think will gain some popularity in Homestead when the crybads reroll to magicka again.

Also to those parties interested, when I run on my defense bar and use hard ward/harness/heal ward....I am pretty hard pressed to recall a time when I died to another sorc. Usually takes more people jumping in on me, or a stalemate

I mean harness + hardened correct. Shields that can get stacked on top of 100% full HP.

I don´t consider healing + hardened stack as bad because to get a noticeable stack you have to be in the risk of dying in the first place.
On top of that I don´t think healing ward is currently replaceable as it functions as the main heal for sorcs and NBs (i´ve already mentioned ideas for reworking it though).

I run hardened only for open world. I think harness is one of the most broken abilities in the game due to the resorce return mechanics (today theorycrafting around it made me realise just how broken it is).

To your last point, if shields couldn't stack I don't know if I'd call it broken. It's a pretty low shield in pvp (like 7k?) so having high magicka returns is OK in my book. However, I wonder it's potential in Homestead with perma frost staff blocking trollmagplars

It wouldn´t be broken if it could not stack - agreed.

So i correct myself. Harness is broken when used in conjunction with hardened ward allowing you to take full advantage of the magica return against every magica player. Effectively making both shields free to cast on a high magica build.

Edit: @Malamar1229 - i´m not sure if it will be broken with permablocking icestaff mainly because harness scales with max magica AND pieces of light armor worn. It´ll be problematic if someone manages to create a permablocking light armor build. That´s when the fun starts. Oh boy.

Answer this: Is the stacking OP on the annulment morph without the return? It's a 10K or so shield, and doesn't return any magicka. That's what I stack when under pressure, the downside is the expense of two shields. Your argument so far is based on magicka return only. Not the size. Not the terrible duration.

I'd love to have one shield that could survive most stamina burst openers. Sadly we don't.

We'll already have something close to a permablock build with desert rose. That's going to be extremely strong.

I´d say hardened + dampen is tricky because it depends on the opponent having slotted a magica cost increase poison (atleast for the builds i´m running). This depends a lot more on your general build - you need enough magica regen to sustain your shields.
At about 2000 magica regen + potion it should be almost infinetly sustainable aswell unless you´re getting poisoned by 10s magica cost increase.
However for short duration fights hardened + dampen can give you even better defense than harness.
I don´t really have an opinion on that one because i´ve not used it myself and i very rarely see other sorcs using dampen (because harness is so much better).

In general i would like the option of stacking harness/dampen + hardened (not healing ward - but that should see a rework maybe) removed and light armor given a buff in the defensive department to make it a more compelling armor choice for magblade, magDK and Magplar.
I think magica sorc shieldstacking masks light armor shortcomings so well that it´s hard for zos to buff that armor choice without completely overpowering sorcs.

Stamina burst from stealth is a completely different topic - also deserving attention. But that´s again arguing for one imbalance to counteract the other. I´m not against stamburst per se - but i don´t think they (or anyone) should be able to be permanently invisible in pvp.
It´s either:
a) adress the dmg
b) adress the stun
c) adress permanent sneak
One of those has to be looked at imo.

Our whole argument started because you claimed the game is playable with one shield.. it's really not unless you're always grouped with a Templar buddy. A class you can't solo play at least a little isn't really a class.

It is. I´m doing it every day with only hardened as a main shield

And... apparently you do great until a nightblade shows up.

I´m doing pretty good regardless of what shows up.

That's not what you were saying in the Miat thread in the whole counterplay argument. Do you ever run solo on your sorc? Without a group? No healer. No tank? No nightblades of your own?

Half of the AD faction is gankblades on PC TF NA, you can't avoid running into them.

Now you´re exposing my hidden agenda in getting proccgankers nerfed because they´re the only thing reliably killing me while 1vXing.

Honestly. I overplay the role of NB gankers every chance i get (for the very same reason you state. AD trueflame EU is 50% proccblades and you never fight them alone - you get multiple proccs from multiple people).
Simply bc it annoys me to no end that i can fight 3 other people and someone can sneak up to me and i go poof while fighting other people.

I´ve probably been ganked successfully ~5 times in total since dark brotherhood went live when i had my hands on mouse and keyboard and was paying attention.
The preparation required to setup a successful gank is immense when ganking a sorc with an active shield and defensive rune. Only happened once - with a bugged procc and the player wanting to prove a point.

This is going to haunt me.

So i´m probably doing the same when talking about gankers what you are doing in regards to not using harness/dampen

This'll come back and haunt me. But... I usually get by fine with one shield.

However when the stam proc NB jumps in the first thing I do is double stack. When some farm group gap closes to me with multiple EoTS, same thing. Double stack. Roll out.

I only ever need two shields when people are overplaying extremely broken game damage mechanics that shouldn't be there to begin with. Unfortunately on PC/NA that's... pretty much most of the time.

Derra · January 2017

Other

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@Derra I have been trying to read through the 5 pages of this argument,
a) When you say shield stacking I assume you mean Ward/Harness and aren't counting Heal Ward/Hard Ward as shield stacking?
b) Also in open world, you're not saying you run with Harness magicka as your 1 shield are you? I used to run with just hard ward on my front bar and I did fine. But I can't imagine just running with harness since most of Cyrodiil is stamina anyway (At least right now), and the shield strength was just too low for my liking. Harness (maybe even ball lightning) I think will gain some popularity in Homestead when the crybads reroll to magicka again.

Also to those parties interested, when I run on my defense bar and use hard ward/harness/heal ward....I am pretty hard pressed to recall a time when I died to another sorc. Usually takes more people jumping in on me, or a stalemate

I mean harness + hardened correct. Shields that can get stacked on top of 100% full HP.

I don´t consider healing + hardened stack as bad because to get a noticeable stack you have to be in the risk of dying in the first place.
On top of that I don´t think healing ward is currently replaceable as it functions as the main heal for sorcs and NBs (i´ve already mentioned ideas for reworking it though).

I run hardened only for open world. I think harness is one of the most broken abilities in the game due to the resorce return mechanics (today theorycrafting around it made me realise just how broken it is).

To your last point, if shields couldn't stack I don't know if I'd call it broken. It's a pretty low shield in pvp (like 7k?) so having high magicka returns is OK in my book. However, I wonder it's potential in Homestead with perma frost staff blocking trollmagplars

It wouldn´t be broken if it could not stack - agreed.

So i correct myself. Harness is broken when used in conjunction with hardened ward allowing you to take full advantage of the magica return against every magica player. Effectively making both shields free to cast on a high magica build.

Edit: @Malamar1229 - i´m not sure if it will be broken with permablocking icestaff mainly because harness scales with max magica AND pieces of light armor worn. It´ll be problematic if someone manages to create a permablocking light armor build. That´s when the fun starts. Oh boy.

Answer this: Is the stacking OP on the annulment morph without the return? It's a 10K or so shield, and doesn't return any magicka. That's what I stack when under pressure, the downside is the expense of two shields. Your argument so far is based on magicka return only. Not the size. Not the terrible duration.

I'd love to have one shield that could survive most stamina burst openers. Sadly we don't.

We'll already have something close to a permablock build with desert rose. That's going to be extremely strong.

I´d say hardened + dampen is tricky because it depends on the opponent having slotted a magica cost increase poison (atleast for the builds i´m running). This depends a lot more on your general build - you need enough magica regen to sustain your shields.
At about 2000 magica regen + potion it should be almost infinetly sustainable aswell unless you´re getting poisoned by 10s magica cost increase.
However for short duration fights hardened + dampen can give you even better defense than harness.
I don´t really have an opinion on that one because i´ve not used it myself and i very rarely see other sorcs using dampen (because harness is so much better).

In general i would like the option of stacking harness/dampen + hardened (not healing ward - but that should see a rework maybe) removed and light armor given a buff in the defensive department to make it a more compelling armor choice for magblade, magDK and Magplar.
I think magica sorc shieldstacking masks light armor shortcomings so well that it´s hard for zos to buff that armor choice without completely overpowering sorcs.

Stamina burst from stealth is a completely different topic - also deserving attention. But that´s again arguing for one imbalance to counteract the other. I´m not against stamburst per se - but i don´t think they (or anyone) should be able to be permanently invisible in pvp.
It´s either:
a) adress the dmg
b) adress the stun
c) adress permanent sneak
One of those has to be looked at imo.

Our whole argument started because you claimed the game is playable with one shield.. it's really not unless you're always grouped with a Templar buddy. A class you can't solo play at least a little isn't really a class.

It is. I´m doing it every day with only hardened as a main shield

And... apparently you do great until a nightblade shows up.

I´m doing pretty good regardless of what shows up.

That's not what you were saying in the Miat thread in the whole counterplay argument. Do you ever run solo on your sorc? Without a group? No healer. No tank? No nightblades of your own?

Half of the AD faction is gankblades on PC TF NA, you can't avoid running into them.

Now you´re exposing my hidden agenda in getting proccgankers nerfed because they´re the only thing reliably killing me while 1vXing.

Honestly. I overplay the role of NB gankers every chance i get (for the very same reason you state. AD trueflame EU is 50% proccblades and you never fight them alone - you get multiple proccs from multiple people).
Simply bc it annoys me to no end that i can fight 3 other people and someone can sneak up to me and i go poof while fighting other people.

I´ve probably been ganked successfully ~5 times in total since dark brotherhood went live when i had my hands on mouse and keyboard and was paying attention.
The preparation required to setup a successful gank is immense when ganking a sorc with an active shield and defensive rune. Only happened once - with a bugged procc and the player wanting to prove a point.

This is going to haunt me.

So i´m probably doing the same when talking about gankers what you are doing in regards to not using harness/dampen

This'll come back and haunt me. But... I usually get by fine with one shield.

However when the stam proc NB jumps in the first thing I do is double stack. When some farm group gap closes to me with multiple EoTS, same thing. Double stack. Roll out.

I only ever need two shields when people are overplaying extremely broken game damage mechanics that shouldn't be there to begin with. Unfortunately on PC/NA that's... pretty much most of the time.

See - i´m all for nerfing everything that´s too good and therefor overplayed.

Shieldstacks, eots, proccsets, ganks - you name it i probably want it nerfed

CyrusArya · January 2017

Try to adapt to the changes

Derra wrote: »

Btw i´m all for compensation - just not on class level. I think shieldstacking is broken because it enables sorc to run light armor open world successfully compared to any other class.
With shieldstacking gone zos could finally adress light armor in a way to create an enjoyable pvp experience for DK and templar aswell.

It's true, sorc utilizes light better than the other 3. What is also true is the flip side of this coin. Sorc is limited to light armor in a way the other 3 are not. Whereas heavy armor is obsolete to the sorc for both offensive and defensive reasons, it is completely viable for the other 3 and this gives those classes great build diversity that the sorc does not have. So shouldn't it utilize light better?

Beyond that, in my experience, I feel there is parity and relative balance between shield stacking sorcs and other classes. I don't know about the dynamics on your server, but in my experience I can handily kill sorcs on any class I play and also have very competitive match ups with well played magplars/dks/nightblades on my sorc. Magicka DK's are a very even match up, magplars also have the tools to stall/counter sorcs. Caster magicka NBs demolish sorcs in a match up of even skill. And you seem to concede that a well played stam build can give a sorc a run for its money.

A final point is, there is very different balance between CP and Non-CP Campaigns. Have you tried playing a sorcerer w/o cps? I assure you shield stacking is quite different w/o bastion, the extra magicka, and the extra sustain. You will never beat an equally skilled magicka dk in no cps w/o shield stacking for example. In regards to this Azuras matter and the skill level of the sorcerer population at large, I think your perspective and agenda is too narrow minded and not considering all the ramifications here.

So ultimately, my point is, you can't just buff light armor for everyone else and nerf sorc's primary defensive mechanic and call that balance in my opinion when you consider all the factors. Remember, other classes can stack both heals and shields. Your suggestions must necessarily come with significant changes to both base game and sorcerer mechanics (offensive and defensive). If your ideas are to be entertained, magicka sorc would lose its competitive advantage in my view. And in the end, you'd devote a lot of resources and *** off a lot of people to appease a tiny sub section of the population who are advocating your position. If I were Zenimax, the cost/benefit is simply not there.

Derra · January 2017

Other

CyrusArya wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Btw i´m all for compensation - just not on class level. I think shieldstacking is broken because it enables sorc to run light armor open world successfully compared to any other class.
With shieldstacking gone zos could finally adress light armor in a way to create an enjoyable pvp experience for DK and templar aswell.

It's true, sorc utilizes light better than the other 3. What is also true is the flip side of this coin. Sorc is limited to light armor in a way the other 3 are not. Whereas heavy armor is obsolete to the sorc for both offensive and defensive reasons, it is completely viable for the other 3 and this gives those classes great build diversity that the sorc does not have. So shouldn't it utilize light better?

Beyond that, in my experience, I feel there is parity and relative balance between shield stacking sorcs and other classes. I don't know about the dynamics on your server, but in my experience I can handily kill sorcs on any class I play and also have very competitive match ups with well played magplars/dks/nightblades on my sorc. Magicka DK's are a very even match up, magplars also have the tools to stall/counter sorcs. Caster magicka NBs demolish sorcs in a match up of even skill. And you seem to concede that a well played stam build can give a sorc a run for its money.

A final point is, there is very different balance between CP and Non-CP Campaigns. Have you tried playing a sorcerer w/o cps? I assure you shield stacking is quite different w/o bastion, the extra magicka, and the extra sustain. You will never beat an equally skilled magicka dk in no cps w/o shield stacking for example. In regards to this Azuras matter and the skill level of the sorcerer population at large, I think your perspective and agenda is too narrow minded and not considering all the ramifications here.

So ultimately, my point is, you can't just buff light armor for everyone else and nerf sorc's primary defensive mechanic and call that balance in my opinion when you consider all the factors. Remember, other classes can stack both heals and shields. Your suggestions must necessarily come with significant changes to both base game and sorcerer mechanics (offensive and defensive). If your ideas are to be entertained, magicka sorc would lose its competitive advantage in my view. And in the end, you'd devote a lot of resources and *** off a lot of people to appease a tiny sub section of the population who are advocating your position. If I were Zenimax, the cost/benefit is simply not there.

All really good points you bring up.

As of recent i´ve picked up azuras occasionally. I don´t think sorc is working tremendously different there compared to cp campaigns. It is however very limited in terms of vaible builds. I´m playing 1 shield there aswell.
But I don´t consider the nonCP campaign anywhere near balanceable in the first place. Trollking and shieldbreaker are prime examples for item tooltips balanced with CP in mind completely out of control on the no CP campaign. But i think i´ve made very clear what i think about noCP on other occasions.

I find it hard to talk balance for 1v1 without also taking general open world effectiveness into account. For example i agree on your statement about the sorc v magblade fight. However when looking at magblade performance for open world i don´t think they come anywhere close to a sorc (having played both to some extend here).
That goes the same for stamDK and stamplar.
The only class with comparable potential to a magica sorc when looking at overall performance is a stamblade atm in my opinion.

Heavyarmor on sorc is kind of a ugly stepchild. You can´t utilize the healing bonuses well because the heals accessible are not great. Every other bonus for heavy works perfectly fine on sorcs (wrath, constetution all work on shields aswell).
I think the main problem in that regard is surge (mainly powersurge) being outdated in it´s mechanics.
Magica sorc can´t access good damage over time abilities to reliably procc it on low crit builds in heavy armor. Also powersurge is providing an absolutely unwanted buff.
Surge should provide both buffs spell and wpndmg with the base morph.
As a result of this powersurge should be changed to procc with a flat 50% chance on every attack with the drawback of healing less than critsurge - making it a good passive selfheal mechanic for heavy armor builds while critsurge could provide increased healing for light armor sorcs.

Last i don´t think sorc would loose power if light armor received buffs but the ability of stacking shields is lost in the process. If adjusted carefully the ideal would be light armor becoming more vaible for templars and DKs especially without weakening magica sorcs (atleast that would be my dream scenario).

I´m always discussing single changes in topics but in my head have a general idea of balance changes in mind for the whole game that just would not fit the frame of any normal discussion - which is why some of my statements sometimes might seem irrational or off.

Minalan · January 2017

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@Derra I have been trying to read through the 5 pages of this argument,
a) When you say shield stacking I assume you mean Ward/Harness and aren't counting Heal Ward/Hard Ward as shield stacking?
b) Also in open world, you're not saying you run with Harness magicka as your 1 shield are you? I used to run with just hard ward on my front bar and I did fine. But I can't imagine just running with harness since most of Cyrodiil is stamina anyway (At least right now), and the shield strength was just too low for my liking. Harness (maybe even ball lightning) I think will gain some popularity in Homestead when the crybads reroll to magicka again.

Also to those parties interested, when I run on my defense bar and use hard ward/harness/heal ward....I am pretty hard pressed to recall a time when I died to another sorc. Usually takes more people jumping in on me, or a stalemate

I mean harness + hardened correct. Shields that can get stacked on top of 100% full HP.

I don´t consider healing + hardened stack as bad because to get a noticeable stack you have to be in the risk of dying in the first place.
On top of that I don´t think healing ward is currently replaceable as it functions as the main heal for sorcs and NBs (i´ve already mentioned ideas for reworking it though).

I run hardened only for open world. I think harness is one of the most broken abilities in the game due to the resorce return mechanics (today theorycrafting around it made me realise just how broken it is).

To your last point, if shields couldn't stack I don't know if I'd call it broken. It's a pretty low shield in pvp (like 7k?) so having high magicka returns is OK in my book. However, I wonder it's potential in Homestead with perma frost staff blocking trollmagplars

It wouldn´t be broken if it could not stack - agreed.

So i correct myself. Harness is broken when used in conjunction with hardened ward allowing you to take full advantage of the magica return against every magica player. Effectively making both shields free to cast on a high magica build.

Edit: @Malamar1229 - i´m not sure if it will be broken with permablocking icestaff mainly because harness scales with max magica AND pieces of light armor worn. It´ll be problematic if someone manages to create a permablocking light armor build. That´s when the fun starts. Oh boy.

Answer this: Is the stacking OP on the annulment morph without the return? It's a 10K or so shield, and doesn't return any magicka. That's what I stack when under pressure, the downside is the expense of two shields. Your argument so far is based on magicka return only. Not the size. Not the terrible duration.

I'd love to have one shield that could survive most stamina burst openers. Sadly we don't.

We'll already have something close to a permablock build with desert rose. That's going to be extremely strong.

I´d say hardened + dampen is tricky because it depends on the opponent having slotted a magica cost increase poison (atleast for the builds i´m running). This depends a lot more on your general build - you need enough magica regen to sustain your shields.
At about 2000 magica regen + potion it should be almost infinetly sustainable aswell unless you´re getting poisoned by 10s magica cost increase.
However for short duration fights hardened + dampen can give you even better defense than harness.
I don´t really have an opinion on that one because i´ve not used it myself and i very rarely see other sorcs using dampen (because harness is so much better).

In general i would like the option of stacking harness/dampen + hardened (not healing ward - but that should see a rework maybe) removed and light armor given a buff in the defensive department to make it a more compelling armor choice for magblade, magDK and Magplar.
I think magica sorc shieldstacking masks light armor shortcomings so well that it´s hard for zos to buff that armor choice without completely overpowering sorcs.

Stamina burst from stealth is a completely different topic - also deserving attention. But that´s again arguing for one imbalance to counteract the other. I´m not against stamburst per se - but i don´t think they (or anyone) should be able to be permanently invisible in pvp.
It´s either:
a) adress the dmg
b) adress the stun
c) adress permanent sneak
One of those has to be looked at imo.

Our whole argument started because you claimed the game is playable with one shield.. it's really not unless you're always grouped with a Templar buddy. A class you can't solo play at least a little isn't really a class.

It is. I´m doing it every day with only hardened as a main shield

And... apparently you do great until a nightblade shows up.

I´m doing pretty good regardless of what shows up.

That's not what you were saying in the Miat thread in the whole counterplay argument. Do you ever run solo on your sorc? Without a group? No healer. No tank? No nightblades of your own?

Half of the AD faction is gankblades on PC TF NA, you can't avoid running into them.

Now you´re exposing my hidden agenda in getting proccgankers nerfed because they´re the only thing reliably killing me while 1vXing.

Honestly. I overplay the role of NB gankers every chance i get (for the very same reason you state. AD trueflame EU is 50% proccblades and you never fight them alone - you get multiple proccs from multiple people).
Simply bc it annoys me to no end that i can fight 3 other people and someone can sneak up to me and i go poof while fighting other people.

I´ve probably been ganked successfully ~5 times in total since dark brotherhood went live when i had my hands on mouse and keyboard and was paying attention.
The preparation required to setup a successful gank is immense when ganking a sorc with an active shield and defensive rune. Only happened once - with a bugged procc and the player wanting to prove a point.

This is going to haunt me.

So i´m probably doing the same when talking about gankers what you are doing in regards to not using harness/dampen

This'll come back and haunt me. But... I usually get by fine with one shield.

However when the stam proc NB jumps in the first thing I do is double stack. When some farm group gap closes to me with multiple EoTS, same thing. Double stack. Roll out.

I only ever need two shields when people are overplaying extremely broken game damage mechanics that shouldn't be there to begin with. Unfortunately on PC/NA that's... pretty much most of the time.

See - i´m all for nerfing everything that´s too good and therefor overplayed.

Shieldstacks, eots, proccsets, ganks - you name it i probably want it nerfed

I'll take a minute here and apologize to you publicly. I think one of the big issues is the culture of EU versus US. You just don't deal with the quantity or quality of nightblades we do here.

You see.. Americans seem to celebrate the antisocial little stealthed treasures here. They're literally everywhere, and usually running in groups of two or three.

Europeans in general I've noticed are much friendlier people and work better together in groups. The US servers are one big toxic sewer of nastiness, ego, and solo gankers. That one great ganker guy that you know on EU is the rule, not the exception. Try playing here sometime and you'll see.

Turn on Miats add on for fun, and think... are there really SIX stealthed NB's here? No way... yep! ***! (Meanwhile they're all tea bagging you)

For more fun, Then turn on an add-on that shows people's buffs. Then ask yourself, are there REALLY that many people running TBS to get dual mundus? (The answer is no!)

I don't complain overmuch, I find a way to counter the raw sewage in PVP, and then stick with it. I get a little pissed when someone wants to take that one counter and then leave all of the stinky bits.

Cheers! And I'm sorry for getting so mad @Derra

Waffennacht · January 2017

Try to adapt to the changes

Gonna post this build in a guide soon:

Front bar: Ice (or fire) staff
x5 Alchemist
x2 Troll King
x4/x5 Transmutation (back bar resto)

5 heavy 1 med 1 light
Familiar, Reach, Prey, Frag, H Hard ult Atro or Rage/eots
Familiar, Rapid Regen, Entropy, Healing Ward, Dark Conversion ult O load

O bar:Innerlight, Familiar, H Ward, Prey, Mines

Unkillable, wins vast majority duels, tanky/ off dps support in groups.

Nothing will burst through 20-25k resist with 3.2k crit resist and 10k ward + 2200 health regen. 2k regen 27k health, maxed spell dmg 4.2k with 33k magicka, 10k stam

Oh but you can kill: any LA or Med armor (LA is constant pressure till they outta stam/Familiar stun or atro stun kills. Medium can get bursted, if super aggro lay down mines.

You won't die, you won't always win (malubeth HA temps and or HA dks) but gainin 3k health that isn't defileable is very nice, huge resist, big bad wards too.

I get so much hate and salt, have a 14 sec voice mail about how im a cheater with this build lmfao.

Derra · January 2017

Other

What do you do when your familiar gets killed (or kills itself in another sorcs mines - i´ve not found one of those imps surviving mines with preapplied fury + frags to the face yet).

Then keep up the crushing shock spam.

Minalan · January 2017

Star in a hit reality TV show starring You, Joe Biden and Jennifer Lawrence about different cheeses

Derra wrote: »

What do you do when your familiar gets killed (or kills itself in another sorcs mines - i´ve not found one of those imps surviving mines with preapplied fury + frags to the face yet).

Then keep up the crushing shock spam.

Toss a storm Atro down, get the summon bonus back, then re-cast the pet.

The dueling pet guys (at least on PC/NA) often keep their pets passive, so they hide behind them and kill you that way. Sypher has a video of it somewhere, even using tab targeting you end up shooting pets.

Waffennacht · January 2017

Try to adapt to the changes

@Minalan is correct. Also notice no Necropotence, so there is no loss of damage from my attacks if I do lose my familiar. Also the never ending roots does allow for re cast if so choosen.

You're correct, they like to find the mines, but it's no real loss for the build. Also remember loss of health from a bonus loss comes from top down, so you'll never die from losing a health bonus.

Healing Ward and Rapid regen trigger troll, troll and sorc passives means without any changes to specs your health regen goes over 2k ( @Brrrofski regenerator build is this inspiration) and is not effected by battle spirit or defile. Rapid regen triggers transmutation as well as providing about 1k hps in PvP for 20 secs, and can crit.

Running low on magicka? Heavy resto or dark Conversion will fix that right quick, not to mention heavy passives constitution, you'll never be stuck in CC especially with a simple stam pot.

Oh speakin of pots and Alchemist your simple health pot when combined with troll now also gives you 400 health regen, turning your trash into treasure.

You don't initially burst your opponent from full to dead. You work em and their stam till they're about half healthish and drop atro, then when resources are low, you prey, reach la reach la (until proc frags) frag, prey. Usually they dead. If they not dead and it's been 20 min, it's gonna be a draw.

You only lose if you over extend (nearly impossible) or get too cocky and sit in a EoTS fest and get a Fear lag cuz you decided not to make distance...

GrigorijMalahevich · January 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Gonna post this build in a guide soon:

Front bar: Ice (or fire) staff
x5 Alchemist
x2 Troll King
x4/x5 Transmutation (back bar resto)

5 heavy 1 med 1 light
Familiar, Reach, Prey, Frag, H Hard ult Atro or Rage/eots
Familiar, Rapid Regen, Entropy, Healing Ward, Dark Conversion ult O load

O bar:Innerlight, Familiar, H Ward, Prey, Mines

Unkillable, wins vast majority duels, tanky/ off dps support in groups.

Nothing will burst through 20-25k resist with 3.2k crit resist and 10k ward + 2200 health regen. 2k regen 27k health, maxed spell dmg 4.2k with 33k magicka, 10k stam

Oh but you can kill: any LA or Med armor (LA is constant pressure till they outta stam/Familiar stun or atro stun kills. Medium can get bursted, if super aggro lay down mines.

You won't die, you won't always win (malubeth HA temps and or HA dks) but gainin 3k health that isn't defileable is very nice, huge resist, big bad wards too.

I get so much hate and salt, have a 14 sec voice mail about how im a cheater with this build lmfao.

Great build brother sorc! Always enjoy reading your ideas.