Miat's add-on

Kutsuu

Darnathian wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t have anything against stealthy builds or an evasive playstyle in general. What i have a problem with are instantkills and permanent invisibility without any drawbacks associated.
An attack without warning from suprise is ok when there are reasonable means to recover from it. The playstyle should give you an advantage. It should however not decide the engagement before it even began.

Exactly.

Derra wrote: »

If stealthganking would allow the same room of counterplay as someone proccing a frag or activating destro ultimate does i don´t thing we would have ever seen miats addon.
In fact im 100% sure we wouldn´t have just by judging the forum posts of the addons creator.

As the creator i can confirm that this is most likely correct. Even though i think the other features of the addon are fun in themselves. But it all started with ''maybe pre-channeling heavies from stealth needs a notification or something'-type of

Its awful. This is a game breaking add on that negates a style of play. The info is there. They would have created it themselves if they wanted. You should have kept this to yourself. All this does is make me wonder all the other add ons and cheats people are doing. Never thought this stuff was possible

I wish you would have simply released a video showing its use. Not released it to the masses knowing how long any changes come from zos.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/310499/gankers-counter-the-miats-addon-dont-just-be-a-victim/p1

Dorrino

Darnathian wrote: »

I wish you would have simply released a video showing its use. Not released it to the masses knowing how long any changes come from zos.

I would, if i thought it was an exploit. Like the one i managed to find 2 days ago. You won't see it, i'll report it to zos directly.

But this thing is something i want to be in the game. I find it makes the game 'better' and more fair. I want to play the game having this information and these notifications in it. Because in my mind, the fabled 'skill' doesn't come from a guess-game of 'what's going on on my screen'. The skill comes from choosing the best strategy out of clearly presented initial information.

With this addon the only thing that changed is played awareness. The addon won't press the correct buttons for you.

You might argue that vagueness has to be the part of the game. You got a point. But nevertheless i'll keep advocating for transparency, because that's that i like.

Trust me, if it was possible to make the addon that tells you what gear your pvp opponent is using and what are his magicka and stam current values are i'd make that addon in a heartbeat. And i'd release it for everybody to use.

Edit: let me correct myself here. It IS possible to make an addon that shows the names of the sets the guy you're fighting is using as along as these sets have any specific effect (not pure stats). I don't find this additional information too beneficial, but i might add this to my PVP Alerts if i find the time and desire to do so.

Sigtric

Darnathian wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t have anything against stealthy builds or an evasive playstyle in general. What i have a problem with are instantkills and permanent invisibility without any drawbacks associated.
An attack without warning from suprise is ok when there are reasonable means to recover from it. The playstyle should give you an advantage. It should however not decide the engagement before it even began.

Exactly.

Derra wrote: »

If stealthganking would allow the same room of counterplay as someone proccing a frag or activating destro ultimate does i don´t thing we would have ever seen miats addon.
In fact im 100% sure we wouldn´t have just by judging the forum posts of the addons creator.

As the creator i can confirm that this is most likely correct. Even though i think the other features of the addon are fun in themselves. But it all started with ''maybe pre-channeling heavies from stealth needs a notification or something'-type of

Its awful. This is a game breaking add on that negates a style of play. The info is there. They would have created it themselves if they wanted. You should have kept this to yourself. All this does is make me wonder all the other add ons and cheats people are doing. Never thought this stuff was possible

I wish you would have simply released a video showing its use. Not released it to the masses knowing how long any changes come from zos.

Actually the API was created and made public so that the players could make addons with the info provided. If ZOS did not want this functionality it wouldn't be in the API and if they decide they don't want it they will change the API. They may not decide to do so. At the end of the day this addon is being allowed by ZOS. Not only by current design but also declaration via Jessica's post on the matter.

It doesn't negate anything. I decided to try it out and I've been ganked from stealth and done my own ganging against people I know who are using it.

Sure it adds a weird dynamic to stealth play that we are probably all better off with out, but to be frank there's a whole lot of overblown whining about it.

It's not nearly as big a deal as people are making it out to be

joe.smith21b14_ESO

The_Outsider wrote: »

joe.smith21b14_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

This will be my last direct reply to your comments in this thread. If the above is how you're actually interpreting the things I'm saying, I could have saved time by not commenting here at all, lol. Instead of constructive replies, you've resorted to....misinterpreting my words... It's my sincere hope that the API is changed so that certain aspects of Miat's are changed, and I think that dialogue concerning it is important. ZOS needs to make a decision on it and stick to that decision, the sooner the better. If ZOS deems ganking too easy, unfair, or unhealthy for the game, I'm hopeful they will make those changes soon.

Are you serious?

You´re ignoring the question i´ve posed 3 of my replies ago - which still is how does ganking greate good and fun gameplay. You can only explain how ganking is fun for the ganker.
You completely fail to adress the point that every gank requires someone getting ganked. It´s not fun. I don´t know any person that finds getting ganked even remotely in the realm of fun.
Ofc i´m going to make sarcastic comments when someone chooses to selectively answer the part of the question that fits his own point of view.
And then you tell me i´m misinterpreting your words and you won´t reply anymore? Good form.

I don´t know what to make of the defensive rune statement. "..." does not say much.

The_Outsider wrote: »

@Derra I'm not going to reply to each point it's simply too scattered.

Perhaps I didn't emphasize my point very well... You read what I said, but just attacked the random example that I pulled out of nowhere...Ofc I can't directly relate it to you, mSorc and Gank are completely different play styles. Imagine if your 1v1 enemy knew exactly what you would do before you do it. They knew when your frag was coming, when you would try to stun, or when you're prepping to drop your Ultimate. In that situation, you would be at a severe disadvantage, and your enemy would have information that they were never intended to have. That is what Miat's does to stealth players.

When i´m fighting an enemy i win because i know what they are doing and what they want to do and when they want to do it. That is how i win fights. I´m not a better player. I´m more experienced and can counter what my enemie wants to do. I plan ahead and can orchestrate the fight into the direction i want to go.
That is what i think makes good pvp.

The problem i have with stealth in that regard is:
1. It gives you the advantage from choosing your fights and always engaging on your terms.
2. It gives you the biggest dmg bonus in the game.
3. It gives you a free long duration stun.

Ironically even with miats addons all of these advantages to still remain intact.
The only thing it negates is that an enemy will no longer be completely unaware of you if you prebuff yourself for a gank attempt.

Stealth gameplay in eso does not and has never allowed for any counterplay as it always revolved around instant kills from invisibility.
Remove the ability to instagib someone and i´m the first to advocate on getting rid of miats.

So let me be the first to answer your question. As you all know I been ganking for quite some time now and out of that time I have ganked quite a few gankers and now when ever a nb sees me I become the target. I do enjoy being ganked because every nb has got the same rotation if you can't figure how to counter this rotation it's definitely a l2p issue there should only be a handful of nb's that can actually do work and be effective at what they do. I mean seriously it usually takes like 3 nb's to gank me and I'm a nb it should be insta death.

Agreed @joe.smith21b14_ESO . I feel similarly about being ganked. Even when it's YOU ganking me, lol. You're never going to answer this question for Derra, even if you do. "You didn't answer my question." And when you do, "You didn't answer it for ppl wearing light/medium armor." "That has nothing to do with the discussion." He doesn't actually want an answer, he just want ganking to not exist, fullstop.

Ganking is fun. Not everyone enjoys it, and that's okay. Many ESO players enjoy it as their primary goal, or as opportunity allows. There is thrill in not being seen, avoiding the enemy, other gankers, and magelight spammers, waiting for the opportune moment, and executing a practiced burst combo. There are hundreds of things that can go wrong during this process. I won't argue this much, because you seem set in your opinion.

... think about the dynamics of ganking, thrill of the hunt/chase. Group play-- taking out a key/priority target as your group battles. Anyway... Personally I've been ganked 100% to dead by 1 player a total of 1 time in the past few months. I actually enjoy when players attempt to gank me. There's nothing more rewarding than tracking down the dirty bugger after he fails and slaughtering him (amiright?). And if he is successful, I view it as a challenge. I'll get him next time.

I think you may have been the 1 (solo) ganker that got me recently. The whole situation is fun for me: "It's quiet...too quiet." BOOM, see the stun and procs--frantically spam CC break-->ROLL-->POTIONHEALcounterCC. It either works or it doesn't. It's thrilling for me, and for you trying to kill me. If you succeed, I /golfclap and scold myself for letting my buffs drop off on siege. The folks who rage after getting ganked are the only ones who really lose in these situations.

I also /golfclap

olsborg

I dont rly support the addon, Im not rly against it either, im switzerland. I do use it to get warnings when someone is about to heavy atk, or snipe or wb me from stealth, so I dont have to get oneshot-ganked. It also helps if im already fighting someone, and a very brave sniper decides to start sniping me from a "safe" location. Atleast I dont have to take those 10-12k arrows to the knee while having a good fight with someone else.

Rohamad_Ali

olsborg wrote: »

I dont rly support the addon, Im not rly against it either, im switzerland. I do use it to get warnings when someone is about to heavy atk, or snipe or wb me from stealth, so I dont have to get oneshot-ganked. It also helps if im already fighting someone, and a very brave sniper decides to start sniping me from a "safe" location. Atleast I dont have to take those 10-12k arrows to the knee while having a good fight with someone else.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ws_APXilE

Derra

The_Outsider wrote: »

Agreed @joe.smith21b14_ESO . I feel similarly about being ganked. Even when it's YOU ganking me, lol. You're never going to answer this question for Derra, even if you do. "You didn't answer my question." And when you do, "You didn't answer it for ppl wearing light/medium armor." "That has nothing to do with the discussion." He doesn't actually want an answer, he just want ganking to not exist, fullstop.

Are you really that dense or do you just feel the need to put words in my mouth when running out of arguments.

I don´t want instant kills in any forum (especially from invisibility) to be a thing. Period.

That you think instantkill ganking and a stealth/evasive playstyle are the same thing is in my humble opinion pretty sad and just shows your general lack of experience in this particular topic as other games that did handle this way of playing way better than eso ever did.

But searching for people sharing your own opinion instead of adressing the people having an opposite opinion has always been an easy way out of an discussion.

Sigtric wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I want to be able to instantly kill everybody from invisibility. Anything impairing that functionality is basically cheating.

I want to be completely immune to all attacks from invisibility. I am elite and anyone that can kill me should not be allowed to do so, even at the cost of nullifying an entire build and play style.

So explain to me. In what way do instantkills create good/fun gameplay?

Playing as a hunter of enemies is a lot of fun for many people. Stalk your prey, find the right positioning and moment for a strike. Depending on if others are around and other factors this can be done in seconds, just a couple minutes or even longer.

There's a certain thrill to be had when you jump into a group of enemy players, take out a weak target and GTFO with out being seen.

Might not be fun for the target, but some people enjoy a playstyle that is designed into the game.

RIGHT. I do actually think it should have never made it into the game. It´s a singleplayer game mechanic. Might not be fun for the target is a big might. This is an online game. I think it should be designed to atleast create possibilities to have fun out of every situation you might find yourself in pvp.

Derra

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If stealthganking would allow the same room of counterplay as someone proccing a frag or activating destro ultimate does i don´t thing we would have ever seen miats addon.
In fact im 100% sure we wouldn´t have just by judging the forum posts of the addons creator.

As the creator i can confirm that this is most likely correct. Even though i think the other features of the addon are fun in themselves. But it all started with ''maybe pre-channeling heavies from stealth needs a notification or something'-type of thinking.

I´ve turned off the heavy attack notification - as it´s too unreliable with heavy bow attack not requiring a channeltarget.

I absolutely love the killfeed feature. It´s been one of the main features adding to pvp flair in DAoC back in the days. "XXX killed Lurikeen Invader in Emain Macha." Yes please. Implement this into your base game zos. It´s awesome.

Otherwise i only keep the KOS active. I know the gankers posing a threat and i don´t need a notification for anyone but these ~15 players on trueflame EU.

Sigtric

Derra wrote: »

Might not be fun for the target, but some people enjoy a playstyle that is designed into the game.

RIGHT. I do actually think it should have never made it into the game. It´s a singleplayer game mechanic. Might not be fun for the target is a big might. This is an online game. I think it should be designed to atleast create possibilities to have fun out of every situation you might find yourself in pvp.

Well, I mean no one really wants to die in PVP. Dead is dead. It doesn't really matter if it was a gank, a 1v1, a 1vx or you get zerged down. I don't want to die in any of those situations.

Stealth play is a valid playstyle, it's built into the game

If people hate it that much they either need to learn how to deal with it or stay the heck out of Cryodiil

Minalan

Sigtric wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Might not be fun for the target, but some people enjoy a playstyle that is designed into the game.

RIGHT. I do actually think it should have never made it into the game. It´s a singleplayer game mechanic. Might not be fun for the target is a big might. This is an online game. I think it should be designed to atleast create possibilities to have fun out of every situation you might find yourself in pvp.

Well, I mean no one really wants to die in PVP. Dead is dead. It doesn't really matter if it was a gank, a 1v1, a 1vx or you get zerged down. I don't want to die in any of those situations.

Stealth play is a valid playstyle, it's built into the game

If people hate it that much they either need to learn how to deal with it or stay the heck out of Cryodiil

'Stealth Playstyle' isn't the same as 'one shot ganking'.

In the minds of a few here who can't tell the difference, before viper and velidreth were added/updated, stealth players still played. Killing people required smarter builds and more button presses.

After the proc sets? It's a turkey shoot where any terrible player can gank in one mouse click and two button presses. It's terrible.

The people getting angriest about it, who also probably can't kill anyone with the add on? Hilarious. Those who can? Have fun, you probably deserve it.

danno8

Kutsuu wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

You're completely full of it @Derra. You are not dying within 1 second when you have a 10k shield, 24khp, and radiant magelight going unless you do absolutely nothing to react and die in more like 2-3 seconds. First, that half damage stealth heavy attack that can't crit against your shields is going to take a whole 3-4k off the top. Then there's the fact that you claim you are stunned and need to CC break - you do realize that your radiant magelight prevents the stealth attack stun, which gives you time to react and counter play before the incap hits? Are you such a potato that you can't block the incap after being hit by the previous abilities? I'm guessing the answer HAS to be yes, for your scenario to have any chance of playing out.

We've had this same stupid discussion in several threads now and you never bring anything to the table other than wild exaggerations and lies.

I guess claiming you have reaction time to counter the incap stun just proves my point as when that happens the ganker was pretty incompetent.

I guess when the only thing you can resort to is l2p i know there is no point in discussing because essentially you have no argument and have to resort to wild exaggerations and assumptions in the attempt to refute my point. Which obviously it doesn´t.
Screaming l2p never did. That´s poor form.

There are maybe 4-5 gankers total I've run into that actually have a Viper bow - you had to get one that was a previous drop before 1T came out, because they aren't dropping in FG. The reason I mention that is because the only time you're going to get hit by an incap that you don't have time to react to is from a viper bow user - They will hit you with a melee range bow heavy attack STRAIGHT into incap, and yeah there's no reacting to that before you get stunned by the incap. However, that melee range gank doesn't work in your scenario because you say you were standing in mines. They literally *had* to bow heavy > ambush > incap for your scenario to play out.

However, the 99% of gankers out there are using a bow heavy attack > swap to melee weapon > ambush > incap, and in your scenario this was required. The time between the ambush and incap landing is 500ms (1/2 second) at the bare minimum by even the most skilled possible player, due to the game's limitations (1s GCD - ambush has a .5s cast time). If you get hit by a heavy attack > Ambush that DOES NOT STUN YOU because you have radiant magelight, and you do not block or dodge within 1/2 a second, that's on you. Aware players can absolutely react within that amount of time.

Average human reaction time is .25 seconds. Latency in this game is around 100ms at best during PVP. So let's play that out.

Guy hits ambush you have .5s to react. By the time the data gets to you, you are at .4s before the skill hits you. You take .25s to react and hit block, server now is at .15s until it registers a hit on you. It takes another .1s for your block to get to the server and register with .05s left.

So basically, unless you are super-human, you have around .05s buffer. If latency is any higher than 125 Ms you will not be able to react.

Better drink your Red-Bull.

Derra

Sigtric wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Might not be fun for the target, but some people enjoy a playstyle that is designed into the game.

RIGHT. I do actually think it should have never made it into the game. It´s a singleplayer game mechanic. Might not be fun for the target is a big might. This is an online game. I think it should be designed to atleast create possibilities to have fun out of every situation you might find yourself in pvp.

Well, I mean no one really wants to die in PVP. Dead is dead. It doesn't really matter if it was a gank, a 1v1, a 1vx or you get zerged down. I don't want to die in any of those situations.

Stealth play is a valid playstyle, it's built into the game

If people hate it that much they either need to learn how to deal with it or stay the heck out of Cryodiil

Dead is not dead. If i die against multiple people i positioned myself wrong. If i loose a 1v1 i got outplayed. If i get instaripped from stealth - well there is not much to be done.

You can repeat it´s a valid playstyle as much as you want. I think it´s broken anyhow. I don´t think instantkills belong into an mmo style game.
So i´m gonna continue advocating against instant kills (especially from invisibility) any chance i get.

I simply don´t think it should be a valid playstyle.

FleetwoodSmack

Derra wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Might not be fun for the target, but some people enjoy a playstyle that is designed into the game.

RIGHT. I do actually think it should have never made it into the game. It´s a singleplayer game mechanic. Might not be fun for the target is a big might. This is an online game. I think it should be designed to atleast create possibilities to have fun out of every situation you might find yourself in pvp.

Well, I mean no one really wants to die in PVP. Dead is dead. It doesn't really matter if it was a gank, a 1v1, a 1vx or you get zerged down. I don't want to die in any of those situations.

Stealth play is a valid playstyle, it's built into the game

If people hate it that much they either need to learn how to deal with it or stay the heck out of Cryodiil

Dead is not dead. If i die against multiple people i positioned myself wrong. If i loose a 1v1 i got outplayed. If i get instaripped from stealth - well there is not much to be done.

You can repeat it´s a valid playstyle as much as you want. I think it´s broken anyhow. I don´t think instantkills belong into an mmo style game.
So i´m gonna continue advocating against instant kills (especially from invisibility) any chance i get.

I simply don´t think it should be a valid playstyle.

Just because you think something shouldn't be valid, doesn't make it any less valid. Might not being fun for the target, sounded more rhetorical in the sense of that NOBODY likes dying. Ganking or not. I get ragetells when I'm not even in stealth. Simply KILLING someone creates enough salt to warrant a ragetell because you ruined someone's ego. I get told shield builds isn't form of gameplay. Same with pet builds, or builds that use Pelinals, or using executes or running this or that. That's a cop-out argument.

Trying to delegitimize a preference that's widely accepted is YOUR personal problem. Not anyone else's. Regardless of this addon's existence or not. If you're getting instantly killed, there's a reason and you should investigate the matter rather than blaming a playstyle that's just as valid as the perma-blocking tanks that don't die because they're able to stockpile those resources and troll large amounts of players while doing it.

Sigtric

Minalan wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Might not be fun for the target, but some people enjoy a playstyle that is designed into the game.

RIGHT. I do actually think it should have never made it into the game. It´s a singleplayer game mechanic. Might not be fun for the target is a big might. This is an online game. I think it should be designed to atleast create possibilities to have fun out of every situation you might find yourself in pvp.

Well, I mean no one really wants to die in PVP. Dead is dead. It doesn't really matter if it was a gank, a 1v1, a 1vx or you get zerged down. I don't want to die in any of those situations.

Stealth play is a valid playstyle, it's built into the game

If people hate it that much they either need to learn how to deal with it or stay the heck out of Cryodiil

'Stealth Playstyle' isn't the same as 'one shot ganking'.

In the minds of a few here who can't tell the difference, before viper and velidreth were added/updated, stealth players still played. Killing people required smarter builds and more button presses.

After the proc sets? It's a turkey shoot where any terrible player can gank in one mouse click and two button presses. It's terrible.

The people getting angriest about it, who also probably can't kill anyone with the add on? Hilarious. Those who can? Have fun, you probably deserve it.

I am currently playing a gank blade that procs no damage. All my set bonuses buff me in some way and deal no damage to the target.

All my victim ever sees if my gank is successful is my ambush and heavy hitting at the same time and an execute a split second later. Combat is over in the blink of an eye. (unless I bounce off my target, it happens)

Proc tanks suck but honestly most people can't see the difference when a good gank is pulled off vs a proc gank because TTK is fractions of a second different and either way they are dead before they can do anything.

Kutsuu

danno8 wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

You're completely full of it @Derra. You are not dying within 1 second when you have a 10k shield, 24khp, and radiant magelight going unless you do absolutely nothing to react and die in more like 2-3 seconds. First, that half damage stealth heavy attack that can't crit against your shields is going to take a whole 3-4k off the top. Then there's the fact that you claim you are stunned and need to CC break - you do realize that your radiant magelight prevents the stealth attack stun, which gives you time to react and counter play before the incap hits? Are you such a potato that you can't block the incap after being hit by the previous abilities? I'm guessing the answer HAS to be yes, for your scenario to have any chance of playing out.

We've had this same stupid discussion in several threads now and you never bring anything to the table other than wild exaggerations and lies.

I guess claiming you have reaction time to counter the incap stun just proves my point as when that happens the ganker was pretty incompetent.

I guess when the only thing you can resort to is l2p i know there is no point in discussing because essentially you have no argument and have to resort to wild exaggerations and assumptions in the attempt to refute my point. Which obviously it doesn´t.
Screaming l2p never did. That´s poor form.

There are maybe 4-5 gankers total I've run into that actually have a Viper bow - you had to get one that was a previous drop before 1T came out, because they aren't dropping in FG. The reason I mention that is because the only time you're going to get hit by an incap that you don't have time to react to is from a viper bow user - They will hit you with a melee range bow heavy attack STRAIGHT into incap, and yeah there's no reacting to that before you get stunned by the incap. However, that melee range gank doesn't work in your scenario because you say you were standing in mines. They literally *had* to bow heavy > ambush > incap for your scenario to play out.

However, the 99% of gankers out there are using a bow heavy attack > swap to melee weapon > ambush > incap, and in your scenario this was required. The time between the ambush and incap landing is 500ms (1/2 second) at the bare minimum by even the most skilled possible player, due to the game's limitations (1s GCD - ambush has a .5s cast time). If you get hit by a heavy attack > Ambush that DOES NOT STUN YOU because you have radiant magelight, and you do not block or dodge within 1/2 a second, that's on you. Aware players can absolutely react within that amount of time.

Average human reaction time is .25 seconds. Latency in this game is around 100ms at best during PVP. So let's play that out.

Guy hits ambush you have .5s to react. By the time the data gets to you, you are at .4s before the skill hits you. You take .25s to react and hit block, server now is at .15s until it registers a hit on you. It takes another .1s for your block to get to the server and register with .05s left.

So basically, unless you are super-human, you have around .05s buffer. If latency is any higher than 125 Ms you will not be able to react.

Better drink your Red-Bull.

Look I wouldn't be making that claim unless I regularly block incaps after not getting stunned thanks to Radiant. It is not hard as long as you are aware and prepared to hold block once you hear the sound effect of Ambush and block the incap. If you're getting the Ambush warning from Miat's addon, it's not even an argument - ANYONE should be able to block the incap, and MOST will be able to block the Ambush+heavy attack too. You can see me blocking heavy+ambushes in my video based only off the ambush warning from Miat's addon - which means that I had block up in less than 1/2 a second after receiving the warning. I don't have a superhuman reaction time. In fact most of my play time is after an exhausting day of work and I'm sluggish at best.

Derra

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Might not be fun for the target, but some people enjoy a playstyle that is designed into the game.

RIGHT. I do actually think it should have never made it into the game. It´s a singleplayer game mechanic. Might not be fun for the target is a big might. This is an online game. I think it should be designed to atleast create possibilities to have fun out of every situation you might find yourself in pvp.

Well, I mean no one really wants to die in PVP. Dead is dead. It doesn't really matter if it was a gank, a 1v1, a 1vx or you get zerged down. I don't want to die in any of those situations.

Stealth play is a valid playstyle, it's built into the game

If people hate it that much they either need to learn how to deal with it or stay the heck out of Cryodiil

Dead is not dead. If i die against multiple people i positioned myself wrong. If i loose a 1v1 i got outplayed. If i get instaripped from stealth - well there is not much to be done.

You can repeat it´s a valid playstyle as much as you want. I think it´s broken anyhow. I don´t think instantkills belong into an mmo style game.
So i´m gonna continue advocating against instant kills (especially from invisibility) any chance i get.

I simply don´t think it should be a valid playstyle.

Just because you think something shouldn't be valid, doesn't make it any less valid. Might not being fun for the target, sounded more rhetorical in the sense of that NOBODY likes dying. Ganking or not. I get ragetells when I'm not even in stealth. Simply KILLING someone creates enough salt to warrant a ragetell because you ruined someone's ego. I get told shield builds isn't form of gameplay. Same with pet builds, or builds that use Pelinals, or using executes or running this or that. That's a cop-out argument.

Trying to delegitimize a preference that's widely accepted is YOUR personal problem. Not anyone else's. Regardless of this addon's existence or not. If you're getting instantly killed, there's a reason and you should investigate the matter rather than blaming a playstyle that's just as valid as the perma-blocking tanks that don't die because they're able to stockpile those resources and troll large amounts of players while doing it.

Quite ironic. I also don´t think permablocking selfhealing tanks should not be a thing.
It does not create enjoyable gameplay aswell. We´re getting to a point here.

If i´d agree to everything that was possible within the games mechanics was fair game i´d be running a sorc with 3 shields, doublemundus, permanent histbark dodge and a couple of other bonuses that the game allows me to enable on my character by clever use of the games mechanics.

josh.lackey_ESO

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Might not be fun for the target, but some people enjoy a playstyle that is designed into the game.

RIGHT. I do actually think it should have never made it into the game. It´s a singleplayer game mechanic. Might not be fun for the target is a big might. This is an online game. I think it should be designed to atleast create possibilities to have fun out of every situation you might find yourself in pvp.

Well, I mean no one really wants to die in PVP. Dead is dead. It doesn't really matter if it was a gank, a 1v1, a 1vx or you get zerged down. I don't want to die in any of those situations.

Stealth play is a valid playstyle, it's built into the game

If people hate it that much they either need to learn how to deal with it or stay the heck out of Cryodiil

Dead is not dead. If i die against multiple people i positioned myself wrong. If i loose a 1v1 i got outplayed. If i get instaripped from stealth - well there is not much to be done.

You can repeat it´s a valid playstyle as much as you want. I think it´s broken anyhow. I don´t think instantkills belong into an mmo style game.
So i´m gonna continue advocating against instant kills (especially from invisibility) any chance i get.

I simply don´t think it should be a valid playstyle.

Just because you think something shouldn't be valid, doesn't make it any less valid. Might not being fun for the target, sounded more rhetorical in the sense of that NOBODY likes dying. Ganking or not. I get ragetells when I'm not even in stealth. Simply KILLING someone creates enough salt to warrant a ragetell because you ruined someone's ego. I get told shield builds isn't form of gameplay. Same with pet builds, or builds that use Pelinals, or using executes or running this or that. That's a cop-out argument.

Trying to delegitimize a preference that's widely accepted is YOUR personal problem. Not anyone else's. Regardless of this addon's existence or not. If you're getting instantly killed, there's a reason and you should investigate the matter rather than blaming a playstyle that's just as valid as the perma-blocking tanks that don't die because they're able to stockpile those resources and troll large amounts of players while doing it.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. The reason people play cheap one-shot gank builds from stealth is because they can hide behind the anonymity of the internet. Wouldn't happen if you had to face the other player in real life, as another human being, unless you were a sociopath.

People love to play all kinds of competitive games, win or lose. I am one of those people. But getting jumped from stealth and killed before you have time to react is not playing against good competition. It's not losing to a superior opponent. It's having your time wasted by someone who is satisfying their need for reward by disregarding that other people are playing the game, too.

The closest comparison I have is abusive drivers who cause massive traffic jams in a lane merge by racing ahead of everyone in the closing lane, then butting their way in at the last minute. Yes you can do it. No, it's not "against the rules", but it does make you a jerk.

I don't care if I die, and I even go kamikaze a lot. I will get zerged over trying to get off a rez on a pug 10 out of 10 times. I don't care if I am outmatched by someone who has better gear, or more skill. I do care if someone is being a jerk. It's not about ego, it's about someone wasting my time. If I get myself into a bad situation and get wrecked, that's on me. If you are abusing mechanics in this game to get free kills, that's your bad. All kinds of odious troll behavior is "allowed" in this game, but that doesn't mean it's okay.

And it's not fair to say, oh well, you know instakill ganking is no different that other annoying builds like shield stackers or trollplars or unkillable tanks or whatever else might be earning you rage whispers. The difference is that all those other things are "opt-in" -- you don't have to fight those people or deal with them unless you want to. When you see a dozen pugs chasing one guy around a rock, you don't have to join them. But with the instakill ganks, you really have no choice in the matter. It's something that happens to you out of the blue, that you have no control over. And there is no way to opt out of that kind of crappy gameplay experience, either. If they made a new campaign with no stealth, I would home there in a heartbeat.

It's like you're trying to argue it's "legitimate" to be an obnoxious human being just because (1) it's legal, and (2) some people get off it. I love this game, and I care about it's health. Right now, specially stamblade gank builds are outrageous. There are always going to be unintended mechanics in every patch. Someone is always going to find them and have an advantage. But you can't seriously think that PvP is in a healthy place when instakill ganking is so easy and common. For reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBoFfEPKnEc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGnSoras4Oo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyyMGkC0pIY

https://youtu.be/x3grblvmmjo?t=444

I know ZOS makes it easy, but please don't be ESO cancer. I think @Derra is right. If you want to go be ESO cancer, I can only try to appeal to your human dignity to dissuade you. But surely you are not on the forums defending the cancer's right to be slowly killing the game.

Minalan

Derra wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Might not be fun for the target, but some people enjoy a playstyle that is designed into the game.

RIGHT. I do actually think it should have never made it into the game. It´s a singleplayer game mechanic. Might not be fun for the target is a big might. This is an online game. I think it should be designed to atleast create possibilities to have fun out of every situation you might find yourself in pvp.

Well, I mean no one really wants to die in PVP. Dead is dead. It doesn't really matter if it was a gank, a 1v1, a 1vx or you get zerged down. I don't want to die in any of those situations.

Stealth play is a valid playstyle, it's built into the game

If people hate it that much they either need to learn how to deal with it or stay the heck out of Cryodiil

Dead is not dead. If i die against multiple people i positioned myself wrong. If i loose a 1v1 i got outplayed. If i get instaripped from stealth - well there is not much to be done.

You can repeat it´s a valid playstyle as much as you want. I think it´s broken anyhow. I don´t think instantkills belong into an mmo style game.
So i´m gonna continue advocating against instant kills (especially from invisibility) any chance i get.

I simply don´t think it should be a valid playstyle.

Just because you think something shouldn't be valid, doesn't make it any less valid. Might not being fun for the target, sounded more rhetorical in the sense of that NOBODY likes dying. Ganking or not. I get ragetells when I'm not even in stealth. Simply KILLING someone creates enough salt to warrant a ragetell because you ruined someone's ego. I get told shield builds isn't form of gameplay. Same with pet builds, or builds that use Pelinals, or using executes or running this or that. That's a cop-out argument.

Trying to delegitimize a preference that's widely accepted is YOUR personal problem. Not anyone else's. Regardless of this addon's existence or not. If you're getting instantly killed, there's a reason and you should investigate the matter rather than blaming a playstyle that's just as valid as the perma-blocking tanks that don't die because they're able to stockpile those resources and troll large amounts of players while doing it.

Quite ironic. I also don´t think permablocking selfhealing tanks should not be a thing.
It does not create enjoyable gameplay aswell. We´re getting to a point here.

If i´d agree to everything that was possible within the games mechanics was fair game i´d be running a sorc with 3 shields, doublemundus, permanent histbark dodge and a couple of other bonuses that the game allows me to enable on my character by clever use of the games mechanics.

Then you can stream your YouTube kills and tell everyone how great you are.

Oh and change your name to a European country.

Kutsuu

lol someone direct linked a Sribes video, thread lock inc.

josh.lackey_ESO

Kutsuu wrote: »

lol someone direct linked a Sribes video, thread lock inc.

I'll edit that one out.

Derra

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Might not be fun for the target, but some people enjoy a playstyle that is designed into the game.

RIGHT. I do actually think it should have never made it into the game. It´s a singleplayer game mechanic. Might not be fun for the target is a big might. This is an online game. I think it should be designed to atleast create possibilities to have fun out of every situation you might find yourself in pvp.

Well, I mean no one really wants to die in PVP. Dead is dead. It doesn't really matter if it was a gank, a 1v1, a 1vx or you get zerged down. I don't want to die in any of those situations.

Stealth play is a valid playstyle, it's built into the game

If people hate it that much they either need to learn how to deal with it or stay the heck out of Cryodiil

Dead is not dead. If i die against multiple people i positioned myself wrong. If i loose a 1v1 i got outplayed. If i get instaripped from stealth - well there is not much to be done.

You can repeat it´s a valid playstyle as much as you want. I think it´s broken anyhow. I don´t think instantkills belong into an mmo style game.
So i´m gonna continue advocating against instant kills (especially from invisibility) any chance i get.

I simply don´t think it should be a valid playstyle.

Just because you think something shouldn't be valid, doesn't make it any less valid. Might not being fun for the target, sounded more rhetorical in the sense of that NOBODY likes dying. Ganking or not. I get ragetells when I'm not even in stealth. Simply KILLING someone creates enough salt to warrant a ragetell because you ruined someone's ego. I get told shield builds isn't form of gameplay. Same with pet builds, or builds that use Pelinals, or using executes or running this or that. That's a cop-out argument.

Trying to delegitimize a preference that's widely accepted is YOUR personal problem. Not anyone else's. Regardless of this addon's existence or not. If you're getting instantly killed, there's a reason and you should investigate the matter rather than blaming a playstyle that's just as valid as the perma-blocking tanks that don't die because they're able to stockpile those resources and troll large amounts of players while doing it.

Quite ironic. I also don´t think permablocking selfhealing tanks should not be a thing.
It does not create enjoyable gameplay aswell. We´re getting to a point here.

If i´d agree to everything that was possible within the games mechanics was fair game i´d be running a sorc with 3 shields, doublemundus, permanent histbark dodge and a couple of other bonuses that the game allows me to enable on my character by clever use of the games mechanics.

Then you can stream your YouTube kills and tell everyone how great you are.

Oh and change your name to a European country.

"If i´d agree... ", was the important part - since i obviously don´t stream or make youtube videos you can rest assured i don´t agree with using/abusing every possible mechanic or crutch gameplay to get an advantage.

I simply want the game to be fun and enjoyable for me aswell as my opponents and therefor have a strong disdain for anything that results in a fight never ending or an end happening before there could be a fight.

I believe in sportsmanship even in videogames because respecting your opponent ultimately can create an environment where both parties are able to enjoy the experience without taking the outcome into consideration.
Ofc i´d rather win a fight than loose it - but winning is not an imperative if the fight before was fun.
Situations where someone deliberately tries to keep someone from having fun in a recreational game are for that reason undesireable for me and i believe a developer should do their best to prevent them from happening.

Darnathian

Dorrino wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

I wish you would have simply released a video showing its use. Not released it to the masses knowing how long any changes come from zos.

I would, if i thought it was an exploit. Like the one i managed to find 2 days ago. You won't see it, i'll report it to zos directly.

But this thing is something i want to be in the game. I find it makes the game 'better' and more fair. I want to play the game having this information and these notifications in it. Because in my mind, the fabled 'skill' doesn't come from a guess-game of 'what's going on on my screen'. The skill comes from choosing the best strategy out of clearly presented initial information.

With this addon the only thing that changed is played awareness. The addon won't press the correct buttons for you.

You might argue that vagueness has to be the part of the game. You got a point. But nevertheless i'll keep advocating for transparency, because that's that i like.

Trust me, if it was possible to make the addon that tells you what gear your pvp opponent is using and what are his magicka and stam current values are i'd make that addon in a heartbeat. And i'd release it for everybody to use.

Edit: let me correct myself here. It IS possible to make an addon that shows the names of the sets the guy you're fighting is using as along as these sets have any specific effect (not pure stats). I don't find this additional information too beneficial, but i might add this to my PVP Alerts if i find the time and desire to do so.

Actually that would be very useful. Could help detect cheaters

For the other tho zos designed stealth in this game. Which means running counters and situational awareness. This bypasses/severely dumvs this down

Darnathian

Sigtric wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t have anything against stealthy builds or an evasive playstyle in general. What i have a problem with are instantkills and permanent invisibility without any drawbacks associated.
An attack without warning from suprise is ok when there are reasonable means to recover from it. The playstyle should give you an advantage. It should however not decide the engagement before it even began.

Exactly.

Derra wrote: »

If stealthganking would allow the same room of counterplay as someone proccing a frag or activating destro ultimate does i don´t thing we would have ever seen miats addon.
In fact im 100% sure we wouldn´t have just by judging the forum posts of the addons creator.

As the creator i can confirm that this is most likely correct. Even though i think the other features of the addon are fun in themselves. But it all started with ''maybe pre-channeling heavies from stealth needs a notification or something'-type of

Its awful. This is a game breaking add on that negates a style of play. The info is there. They would have created it themselves if they wanted. You should have kept this to yourself. All this does is make me wonder all the other add ons and cheats people are doing. Never thought this stuff was possible

I wish you would have simply released a video showing its use. Not released it to the masses knowing how long any changes come from zos.

Actually the API was created and made public so that the players could make addons with the info provided. If ZOS did not want this functionality it wouldn't be in the API and if they decide they don't want it they will change the API. They may not decide to do so. At the end of the day this addon is being allowed by ZOS. Not only by current design but also declaration via Jessica's post on the matter.

It doesn't negate anything. I decided to try it out and I've been ganked from stealth and done my own ganging against people I know who are using it.

Sure it adds a weird dynamic to stealth play that we are probably all better off with out, but to be frank there's a whole lot of overblown whining about it.

It's not nearly as big a deal as people are making it out to be

Wrong. There are some that use wrecking blow as a opener from stealth. This does negate that.

Cathexis

Knew this guy was using alerts lol why don't you just run a bot if you need to win that badly lol using combat alerts is basically not playing imo you would have more fun running a private server and setting up machines that fight each other and it would also not completely ruin combat.

That said maybe they will see this and do away with cast times on abilities and start balancing from there.

josh.lackey_ESO

Cathexis wrote: »

Knew this guy was using alerts lol why don't you just run a bot if you need to win that badly lol using combat alerts is basically not playing imo you would have more fun running a private server and setting up machines that fight each other and it would also not completely ruin combat.

That said maybe they will see this and do away with cast times on abilities and start balancing from there.

You have it backwards. Getting free kills from abuse of stealth and proc sets is is "basically not playing". Just delete your nightblade, or learn to play it without ganking. It's actually more fun if to have real fights. I know, it takes practice and skill to actually pvp and not just gank, but it's much more rewarding.

Cathexis

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Knew this guy was using alerts lol why don't you just run a bot if you need to win that badly lol using combat alerts is basically not playing imo you would have more fun running a private server and setting up machines that fight each other and it would also not completely ruin combat.

That said maybe they will see this and do away with cast times on abilities and start balancing from there.

You have it backwards. Getting free kills from abuse of stealth and proc sets is is "basically not playing". Just delete your nightblade, or learn to play it without ganking. It's actually more fun if to have real fights. I know, it takes practice and skill to actually pvp and not just gank, but it's much more rewarding.

@josh.lackey_ESO

(A) I don't even have a night blade to play right now. So, way ahead of you on that one.

(B) Your counter to stealth instagib should inherently need to be built into your build strategy, not easy mode supplemented by an alert - which is why this game is slowly going to the dogs. Which is why I don't have it backwards: If you are going to rely on add-ons to react for you, you should just run a bot. You are basically playing a step down from it anyway and if the only thing that matters to you is winning that much, you may as well stop being in denial about it.

That doesn't mean I don't understand how the game works and it is the reason I have for the most part put down the game - because it's not worth playing, I may as well run a bot. The problem with allowing these add-ons is that they degrade the substance of combat by escalating the reaction times of all players to otherwise unattainable levels (just like macro-slice). What you are doing is showing up to a boxing match with an AK47. The actual substance of the fight is completely lost.

Also don't get me wrong, I love 1vX, but it needs to be inherent to the variables of the game and not because you throw on an app that auto-one shots people; but that's a completely different issue and is a problem with the game design itself.

(C) I was instant gibbing from stealth as a stam sorc before your character existed, let alone proc sets.

... I mean really if you just want an I win button, that's what bots are for. You don't even have to play, you can just power it on and forget the game entirely. If that's how you want combat to be, set up a private server and go nuts. You can sit back and admire your networked self-sustaining combat with pride and know that you were victorious. It's the perfect ego bubble.

hassubhai

LegacyDM wrote: »

Wear some heavy armor, use a shield, invest in health traits, use detect pots, run magelight, practice your hand eye coordination reflexes, or take the high road and convince ZOS to make a balance case. Resorting to a third party addon for a crutch to negate a glass canon nb because you don't know how to l2p is pathetic.

Soo... go full tank? Yeh seems mets to me

K4RMA

it serves the useful purpose of counting up all the zerglings in the area right before you 1vX them

technohic

It's not just gankers this affects. I was in a small 8 man team and we saw a Zerg rolling up so we scattered LOS and hid. They started spamming AOEs until they accounted for the majority of us. We weren't gankers. Just a small group of guildies trying to find even fights. We wound up balling in with a bunch of pugs at nickel.

Gankers are unpopular because the procs have brought some cheese but the general tactic of being a smaller group needing to pick your fights is necessary and this add on hurts that.

MattT1988

Keep it. Anything that makes ganking harder is a win in my book