Miat's add-on

Kutsuu

Minalan wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

You're completely full of it @Derra. You are not dying within 1 second when you have a 10k shield, 24khp, and radiant magelight going unless you do absolutely nothing to react and die in more like 2-3 seconds. First, that half damage stealth heavy attack that can't crit against your shields is going to take a whole 3-4k off the top. Then there's the fact that you claim you are stunned and need to CC break - you do realize that your radiant magelight prevents the stealth attack stun, which gives you time to react and counter play before the incap hits? Are you such a potato that you can't block the incap after being hit by the previous abilities? I'm guessing the answer HAS to be yes, for your scenario to have any chance of playing out.

We've had this same stupid discussion in several threads now and you never bring anything to the table other than wild exaggerations and lies.

A 10K shield? No ganker is hitting you with that up. Lets be honest and sincere here, shields last six seconds. Keeping them up all the time hasn't been an option since TG.

Radiant only stops the stun out of stealth, it won't help you against incap or anything else. Besides, it's a garbage morph, most of us use the other (5% magicka, because we NEED it in trials and vet PVE). So we just pay the occasional 'stealth ass-hat' tax. All while hoping beyond hope that ZOS fixes night blades and ganking.

They never do.

Did you read his post, at all? He claims he got ganked from 100-0 in less than 1 second while he had a 10k shield going, AND while using radiant magelight, AND having 24k HP on top of that. I'm calling BS.

Kutsuu

Derra wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

You're completely full of it @Derra. You are not dying within 1 second when you have a 10k shield, 24khp, and radiant magelight going unless you do absolutely nothing to react and die in more like 2-3 seconds. First, that half damage stealth heavy attack that can't crit against your shields is going to take a whole 3-4k off the top. Then there's the fact that you claim you are stunned and need to CC break - you do realize that your radiant magelight prevents the stealth attack stun, which gives you time to react and counter play before the incap hits? Are you such a potato that you can't block the incap after being hit by the previous abilities? I'm guessing the answer HAS to be yes, for your scenario to have any chance of playing out.

We've had this same stupid discussion in several threads now and you never bring anything to the table other than wild exaggerations and lies.

I guess claiming you have reaction time to counter the incap stun just proves my point as when that happens the ganker was pretty incompetent.

I guess when the only thing you can resort to is l2p i know there is no point in discussing because essentially you have no argument and have to resort to wild exaggerations and assumptions in the attempt to refute my point. Which obviously it doesn´t.
Screaming l2p never did. That´s poor form.

There are maybe 4-5 gankers total I've run into that actually have a Viper bow - you had to get one that was a previous drop before 1T came out, because they aren't dropping in FG. The reason I mention that is because the only time you're going to get hit by an incap that you don't have time to react to is from a viper bow user - They will hit you with a melee range bow heavy attack STRAIGHT into incap, and yeah there's no reacting to that before you get stunned by the incap. However, that melee range gank doesn't work in your scenario because you say you were standing in mines. They literally *had* to bow heavy > ambush > incap for your scenario to play out.

However, the 99% of gankers out there are using a bow heavy attack > swap to melee weapon > ambush > incap, and in your scenario this was required. The time between the ambush and incap landing is 500ms (1/2 second) at the bare minimum by even the most skilled possible player, due to the game's limitations (1s GCD - ambush has a .5s cast time). If you get hit by a heavy attack > Ambush that DOES NOT STUN YOU because you have radiant magelight, and you do not block or dodge within 1/2 a second, that's on you. Aware players can absolutely react within that amount of time.

Kutsuu

I see your EDIT now about a bugged double proc, are we talking a double 9k crit selene's? In that case, sure I can see it actually working out for the ganker. We're talking about a set that has a less than stellar proc chance on the initial gank attack and the double proc will be fixed with the next update (as well as not being able to crit).

Those 7k Viper crit procs that are getting a stealth attack bonus are going away too.

LjAnimalchin

Ganking is part of this game. Many others too. Stealth isn't going anywhere. Honestly, the impact this add on has had on my gameplay as a stam nb is minimal. There are many people under delusions of this game requiring some form of skill, and it really is not that type of game. It is a game of builds, counters, and FUN. Sure pvp is competitive but at the end of the day, any social game based on fun is going to have times when it's not fun for certain people, and said people should realise that not everything can be fun for everyone all the time. When i get zerged by 100 enemy players, that was *** for me, but at least somebody had fun in that situation and I'm glad to have been a part of that. In other words, the (game) world doesn't revolve around me.

josh.lackey_ESO

The functionality of Miat's PvP alerts needs to be added to be default game UI so everyone has notice if other players are nearby, and most importantly, when someone is using stealth around them. People on console deserve this, too. I hope ZOS can fix to be more accurate, though. The tracking can be a little buggy. Honestly this should've been a feature of the game at launch. It's a shame it's taken two and a half years for this kind of feature to be implemented.

Derra

Kutsuu wrote: »

I see your EDIT now about a bugged double proc, are we talking a double 9k crit selene's? In that case, sure I can see it actually working out for the ganker. We're talking about a set that has a less than stellar proc chance on the initial gank attack and the double proc will be fixed with the next update (as well as not being able to crit).

Those 7k Viper crit procs that are getting a stealth attack bonus are going away too.

Don´t get me wrong i´m not even against ganking in itself. I´m 100% for keeping ganking and stealth and making it vaible by giving them meaningful unpurgeable debuffs for executing a stealth attack.

What i´m 100% opposed to are one shot kills or kombos without telegraph enabling you to effectively oneshot. Sadly this has always been the case for eso ganking due to uncreative development in that regard.

I simply don´t think oneshots should be a thing in an mmo.

Kutsuu

Derra wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

I see your EDIT now about a bugged double proc, are we talking a double 9k crit selene's? In that case, sure I can see it actually working out for the ganker. We're talking about a set that has a less than stellar proc chance on the initial gank attack and the double proc will be fixed with the next update (as well as not being able to crit).

Those 7k Viper crit procs that are getting a stealth attack bonus are going away too.

Don´t get me wrong i´m not even against ganking in itself. I´m 100% for keeping ganking and stealth and making it vaible by giving them meaningful unpurgeable debuffs for executing a stealth attack.

What i´m 100% opposed to are one shot kills or kombos without telegraph enabling you to effectively oneshot. Sadly this has always been the case for eso ganking due to uncreative development in that regard.

I simply don´t think oneshots should be a thing in an mmo.

We're on the same page then. I'm just making the point that taking away the burst needs to be replaced by something, or you just kill the play style DUE to the way the combat system currently works with recovery.

Derra

Kutsuu wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

I see your EDIT now about a bugged double proc, are we talking a double 9k crit selene's? In that case, sure I can see it actually working out for the ganker. We're talking about a set that has a less than stellar proc chance on the initial gank attack and the double proc will be fixed with the next update (as well as not being able to crit).

Those 7k Viper crit procs that are getting a stealth attack bonus are going away too.

Don´t get me wrong i´m not even against ganking in itself. I´m 100% for keeping ganking and stealth and making it vaible by giving them meaningful unpurgeable debuffs for executing a stealth attack.

What i´m 100% opposed to are one shot kills or kombos without telegraph enabling you to effectively oneshot. Sadly this has always been the case for eso ganking due to uncreative development in that regard.

I simply don´t think oneshots should be a thing in an mmo.

We're on the same page then. I'm just making the point that taking away the burst needs to be replaced by something, or you just kill the play style DUE to the way the combat system currently works with recovery.

There are so many things that could be done to have a rewarding stealth system in the game while also allowing for counterplay to happen.
I just think the current form of ganking and stealth are simply lazy and unfun when you´re not ganking yourself.

I hardly die to ganks 1v1 aswell. But the possibility to get instagibbed without having the chance to fight back while being prepared for said scenario is somewhat infuriating.
In the same way that someone spamming three shields in the attempt to not die or someone holding block and refreshing hots in the attempt to not die is infuriating.
For me that´s not pvp. I want to fight people and i want those people to fight back.

Kutsuu

Derra wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

I see your EDIT now about a bugged double proc, are we talking a double 9k crit selene's? In that case, sure I can see it actually working out for the ganker. We're talking about a set that has a less than stellar proc chance on the initial gank attack and the double proc will be fixed with the next update (as well as not being able to crit).

Those 7k Viper crit procs that are getting a stealth attack bonus are going away too.

Don´t get me wrong i´m not even against ganking in itself. I´m 100% for keeping ganking and stealth and making it vaible by giving them meaningful unpurgeable debuffs for executing a stealth attack.

What i´m 100% opposed to are one shot kills or kombos without telegraph enabling you to effectively oneshot. Sadly this has always been the case for eso ganking due to uncreative development in that regard.

I simply don´t think oneshots should be a thing in an mmo.

We're on the same page then. I'm just making the point that taking away the burst needs to be replaced by something, or you just kill the play style DUE to the way the combat system currently works with recovery.

There are so many things that could be done to have a rewarding stealth system in the game while also allowing for counterplay to happen.
I just think the current form of ganking and stealth are simply lazy and unfun when you´re not ganking yourself.

I hardly die to ganks 1v1 aswell. But the possibility to get instagibbed without having the chance to fight back while being prepared for said scenario is somewhat infuriating.
In the same way that someone spamming three shields in the attempt to not die or someone holding block and refreshing hots in the attempt to not die is infuriating.
For me that´s not pvp. I want to fight people and i want those people to fight back.

Lol. This is why I spend most of my time PVEing in order to prepare new builds, new characters, etc, because what I want to be doing is PVPing... but PVP in this game has too many problems to do it for extended periods of time without being constantly infuriated. At the moment I'm splitting my time with other games and just getting VMA scoreboard runs every week, plus the occasional hour or two in Cyrodiil.

kadar

Derra wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I want to be able to instantly kill everybody from invisibility. Anything impairing that functionality is basically cheating.

I want to be completely immune to all attacks from invisibility. I am elite and anyone that can kill me should not be allowed to do so, even at the cost of nullifying an entire build and play style.

So explain to me. In what way do instantkills create good/fun gameplay?

@Derra
I'll try. Ganking is fun. Not everyone enjoys it, and that's okay. Many ESO players enjoy it as their primary goal, or as opportunity allows. There is thrill in not being seen, avoiding the enemy, other gankers, and magelight spammers, waiting for the opportune moment, and executing a practiced burst combo. There are hundreds of things that can go wrong during this process. I won't argue this much, because you seem set in your opinion.

"Insta kills" are not a given. The fact is, we all know how easy it is to counter stealth play. To pull off a true "insta kill" on a decent player is not only hard to do, but rewarding. To escape successfully from a horde of vigorously spamming magelight wielders is a feat in and of itself.

Point 1: Ganking is easy enough nowadays that players who with other characters never stood a chance over the past years can reliably instantly kill me from invisibility. It´s obviously easier than other means of playing (judging from personal experience and performance of other players) while also being associated with less risk (see all players of your own faction lurking in sneak only engaging in fights that are already won by their faction to finish of anything left).

Point 2: I get killed withing 1s when someone who knows what they´re doing ganks me. That means as breakfree requires 1gcd it allows for no counterplay at all. I get stunned and die while breaking the stun.
This happens with:
24khp, 17k armor, 2600impenetrable, an active shield of 10k, radiant magelight and defensive rune active. What kind of easy counterplay is there available to ganking - please do enlighten me.

Also you don´t answer my question. I asked how ganking/instantkills create good and fun gameplay. You say ganking is fun. That´s your explanation.
You completely fail to give any explanation how it´s good gameplay. I get that it´s fun for 50% of the participating players. I just don´t think that a scenario where only half of the players has fun is good gameplay.
There is nothing to learn from being ganked. There is no counterplay available if the ganker is somewhat competent. The only thing you can do is accept the fact that some builds will instantly kill you with no chance of combating that.

I do think that is the epitome of bad gameplay and should not exist. If makes the game less enjoyable for every other player apart from the ganker.
I do believe any combat in an mmo should allow for active counterplay (meaning instantkills of any form should never exist).

Ya @Derra I've read the comments following your reply to mine and like another pointed out, I straight up don't believe you. So I guess that's an issue preventing any meaningful discussion.

: I get killed withing 1s when someone who knows what they´re doing ganks me....This happens with:
24khp, 17k armor, 2600impenetrable, an active shield of 10k, radiant magelight and defensive rune active. [and later] It even happened while i was standing in mines

You later mention that this specific example may have only happened one time. Allowing for flukes, bugs, and perfect storms perhaps that's a bit more believable. Altho even then, with Def Rune, this is one attack we're talking about, mitigated in half by magelight + procs.

"Ganking is easy..." Ganking historically implies success. Therefore I'll disagree. And that's entirely the point. It's your opinion that ganking is easy. And because you (and Miat) have personally deemed ganking easy or somehow more reprehensible than killing a player any other way, you feel justified in running an addon that defeats the very purpose of a stealth players build--to attack without warning, from surprise. It would be like running an addon that shows when a mSorc procs a Frag or is about to cast a Destro/Negate Ult.

That said, I've already typed more than I wanted to, and I don't want to argue for/against Miat's addon-- other's have already covered that. You asked me to explain why "instakills" create good/fun gameplay, and I've attempted to explain it. Reread what I wrote and think about the dynamics of ganking, thrill of the hunt/chase. Group play-- taking out a key/priority target as your group battles. Anyway... Personally I've been ganked 100% to dead by 1 player a total of 1 time in the past few months. I actually enjoy when players attempt to gank me. There's nothing more rewarding than tracking down the dirty bugger after he fails and slaughtering him (amiright?). And if he is successful, I view it as a challenge. I'll get him next time. But that's my attitude specific to me, and you're very free to have yours.

(for context, I'm running 7HA atm, and can't gank for crap, lol)

kadar

I'd like to clarify that I generally don't like true 1 shot builds either. I think it's more a problem with proc sets tho, so we may see some improvement here.

Miat's unfortunately doesn't simply defend against 1 shot gankers. It defends against players who will kill you within 2 or 3 GCDs, thereby eliminating their chosen play style and rendering certain players virtually un-killable for them.

I also consider Miat's addon un-fun and detrimental to the health of PVP. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a group and wanted to pull something (map play) and someone said, "Ah, good idea, but we can't cause of Miat's" or something along those lines. It's a real bummer. But that's really a different discussion.

Derra

The_Outsider wrote: »

"Ganking is easy..." Ganking historically implies success. Therefore I'll disagree. And that's entirely the point. It's your opinion that ganking is easy. And because you (and Miat) have personally deemed ganking easy or somehow more reprehensible than killing a player any other way, you feel justified in running an addon that defeats the very purpose of a stealth players build--to attack without warning, from surprise. It would be like running an addon that shows when a mSorc procs a Frag or is about to cast a Destro/Negate Ult.

In my opinion ganking is a form of solo (or grp play) that is easier than any other form of solo (or grplay in a comparable size).
Why do i have this opinion?
For one i have ganked myself with my magsorc, magblade (proxytimes) and my stamblade (way back when proccsets weren´t even a thing).
On top of that i´m keeping track of my engagements with pvp regulars over the past years. Ever since dark brotherhood people on nightblades stacking proccsets are performing well above what they could do before.

I don´t have anything against stealthy builds or an evasive playstyle in general. What i have a problem with are instantkills and permanent invisibility without any drawbacks associated.
An attack without warning from suprise is ok when there are reasonable means to recover from it. The playstyle should give you an advantage. It should however not decide the engagement before it even began.
On the other hand - if it´s advantage is supposed tobe to attack from suprise why does it need a hefty dmg bonus (autocrit) and a stun just for attacking. Something does not make sense here.

To the highlighted part: You can see both of those actions happening and act accordingly. This allows for active counterplay. I find that ironic as the abilities you state allow for counterplay due to having visible animations which is the exact opposite of stealthganking.
If stealthganking would allow the same room of counterplay as someone proccing a frag or activating destro ultimate does i don´t thing we would have ever seen miats addon.
In fact im 100% sure we wouldn´t have just by judging the forum posts of the addons creator.

Edit: On defensive rune statement: The skill is useless. Someone who knows what they´re doing when ganking a sorc takes a cc immunity potion and is unaffected. They can execute a normal rotation.

The_Outsider wrote: »

Reread what I wrote and think about the dynamics of ganking, thrill of the hunt/chase. Group play-- taking out a key/priority target as your group battles. Anyway... Personally I've been ganked 100% to dead by 1 player a total of 1 time in the past few months. I actually enjoy when players attempt to gank me. There's nothing more rewarding than tracking down the dirty bugger after he fails and slaughtering him (amiright?). And if he is successful, I view it as a challenge. I'll get him next time. But that's my attitude specific to me, and you're very free to have yours.

(for context, I'm running 7HA atm, and can't gank for crap, lol)

Try running a light or medium build and explain to me how getting ganked is fun.

If you however think that running anything but heavy should by default make you an automatic kill from an invisibly enemy when not adjusting your whole build to that scenario i think discussion is futile as we disagree on an absolutely fundamental level of how a game should be balanced.

Also you still have not explained how ganking is fun or good gameplay. Or let me word it in other ways. You have explained why ganking is fun (thats only one half of the coin though). Explain how getting ganked (on a medium or light armor build) is good gameplay and fun (that is 100% of the ganking experience for players not ganking themselves).
I don´t think you´ll find a lot of them finding it fun and good gameplay in any form or shape.

Edit: I´m still banging my head against my table at your last sentence though: "I´m playing 7 heavy and hardly ever get ganked because of that - ganking is completely fine - suck it people trying to run around in medium or light armor LOL "

Really? I mean REALLY?

Kutsuu

The_Outsider wrote: »

I'd like to clarify that I generally don't like true 1 shot builds either. I think it's more a problem with proc sets tho, so we may see some improvement here.

Miat's unfortunately doesn't simply defend against 1 shot gankers. It defends against players who will kill you within 2 or 3 GCDs, thereby eliminating their chosen play style and rendering certain players virtually un-killable for them.

I also consider Miat's addon un-fun and detrimental to the health of PVP. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a group and wanted to pull something (map play) and someone said, "Ah, good idea, but we can't cause of Miat's" or something along those lines. It's a real bummer. But that's really a different discussion.

At most you'll just be replacing Viper with Spriggan, and keeping the Velidreth or Selene. I have been successfully ganking with Spriggan+Alchemist+1x Kena + 1x Kra'gh, though it's not quite as potent as the Viper + Velidreth setup. It still kills people who aren't using balanced builds with good defenses.

Abilities like Snipe, hard casted frags (lol), and Dizzying Swing have definitely taken a big hit from Miat's. These abilities can't be charged up when you aren't targetting them, like heavy attacks can. At least when I'm winding up a heavy attack I can turn away from the enemy until the last moment so they don't get any alerts about it.

There are counters to Miat's when it comes to map play like you are talking about. It's not just a end all be all like people keep making it out to be. There are only certain actions which will reveal your presence on the nearby enemy counter and the stealthed list. If you take advantage of that, you can still be sneaky. Basically do not sprint, mount, enter or exit crouch when you don't want to be revealed. This means enter crouch before you come into the target area, and don't leave it until you're ready to reveal yourselves. You can still cast buffs while stealthed as long as they are not buffs that reveal you (for example you CAN cast rally, but you can't cast hurricane). Crouching when you're already within the sphere of detection is what puts you on the list. For whatever reason all those other activities are reported to clients of people in range so you'll show up on their counters.

kadar

@Derra I'm not going to reply to each point it's simply too scattered.

Perhaps I didn't emphasize my point very well... You read what I said, but just attacked the random example that I pulled out of nowhere...Ofc I can't directly relate it to you, mSorc and Gank are completely different play styles. Imagine if your 1v1 enemy knew exactly what you would do before you do it. They knew when your frag was coming, when you would try to stun, or when you're prepping to drop your Ultimate. In that situation, you would be at a severe disadvantage, and your enemy would have information that they were never intended to have. That is what Miat's does to stealth players.

Edit: On defensive rune statement: The skill is useless. Someone who knows what they´re doing when ganking a sorc takes a cc immunity potion and is unaffected. They can execute a normal rotation.

...

Edit: I´m still banging my head against my table at your last sentence though: "I´m playing 7 heavy and hardly ever get ganked because of that - ganking is completely fine - suck it people trying to run around in medium or light armor LOL "

This will be my last direct reply to your comments in this thread. If the above is how you're actually interpreting the things I'm saying, I could have saved time by not commenting here at all, lol. Instead of constructive replies, you've resorted to....misinterpreting my words... It's my sincere hope that the API is changed so that certain aspects of Miat's are changed, and I think that dialogue concerning it is important. ZOS needs to make a decision on it and stick to that decision, the sooner the better. If ZOS deems ganking too easy, unfair, or unhealthy for the game, I'm hopeful they will make those changes soon.

Johngo0036

Stealth is a big aspect of the game and having an addon that removes that from the game is detrimental to the game. Yes i have a gankblade, but i have many other characters too of all classes and races, when i play my dk i wish someone would gank me but they hardly ever do..

Derra

The_Outsider wrote: »

This will be my last direct reply to your comments in this thread. If the above is how you're actually interpreting the things I'm saying, I could have saved time by not commenting here at all, lol. Instead of constructive replies, you've resorted to....misinterpreting my words... It's my sincere hope that the API is changed so that certain aspects of Miat's are changed, and I think that dialogue concerning it is important. ZOS needs to make a decision on it and stick to that decision, the sooner the better. If ZOS deems ganking too easy, unfair, or unhealthy for the game, I'm hopeful they will make those changes soon.

Are you serious?

You´re ignoring the question i´ve posed 3 of my replies ago - which still is how does ganking greate good and fun gameplay. You can only explain how ganking is fun for the ganker.
You completely fail to adress the point that every gank requires someone getting ganked. It´s not fun. I don´t know any person that finds getting ganked even remotely in the realm of fun.
Ofc i´m going to make sarcastic comments when someone chooses to selectively answer the part of the question that fits his own point of view.
And then you tell me i´m misinterpreting your words and you won´t reply anymore? Good form.

I don´t know what to make of the defensive rune statement. "..." does not say much.

The_Outsider wrote: »

@Derra I'm not going to reply to each point it's simply too scattered.

Perhaps I didn't emphasize my point very well... You read what I said, but just attacked the random example that I pulled out of nowhere...Ofc I can't directly relate it to you, mSorc and Gank are completely different play styles. Imagine if your 1v1 enemy knew exactly what you would do before you do it. They knew when your frag was coming, when you would try to stun, or when you're prepping to drop your Ultimate. In that situation, you would be at a severe disadvantage, and your enemy would have information that they were never intended to have. That is what Miat's does to stealth players.

When i´m fighting an enemy i win because i know what they are doing and what they want to do and when they want to do it. That is how i win fights. I´m not a better player. I´m more experienced and can counter what my enemie wants to do. I plan ahead and can orchestrate the fight into the direction i want to go.
That is what i think makes good pvp.

The problem i have with stealth in that regard is:
1. It gives you the advantage from choosing your fights and always engaging on your terms.
2. It gives you the biggest dmg bonus in the game.
3. It gives you a free long duration stun.

Ironically even with miats addons all of these advantages to still remain intact.
The only thing it negates is that an enemy will no longer be completely unaware of you if you prebuff yourself for a gank attempt.

Stealth gameplay in eso does not and has never allowed for any counterplay as it always revolved around instant kills from invisibility.
Remove the ability to instagib someone and i´m the first to advocate on getting rid of miats.

joe.smith21b14_ESO

Derra wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

This will be my last direct reply to your comments in this thread. If the above is how you're actually interpreting the things I'm saying, I could have saved time by not commenting here at all, lol. Instead of constructive replies, you've resorted to....misinterpreting my words... It's my sincere hope that the API is changed so that certain aspects of Miat's are changed, and I think that dialogue concerning it is important. ZOS needs to make a decision on it and stick to that decision, the sooner the better. If ZOS deems ganking too easy, unfair, or unhealthy for the game, I'm hopeful they will make those changes soon.

Are you serious?

You´re ignoring the question i´ve posed 3 of my replies ago - which still is how does ganking greate good and fun gameplay. You can only explain how ganking is fun for the ganker.
You completely fail to adress the point that every gank requires someone getting ganked. It´s not fun. I don´t know any person that finds getting ganked even remotely in the realm of fun.
Ofc i´m going to make sarcastic comments when someone chooses to selectively answer the part of the question that fits his own point of view.
And then you tell me i´m misinterpreting your words and you won´t reply anymore? Good form.

I don´t know what to make of the defensive rune statement. "..." does not say much.

The_Outsider wrote: »

@Derra I'm not going to reply to each point it's simply too scattered.

Perhaps I didn't emphasize my point very well... You read what I said, but just attacked the random example that I pulled out of nowhere...Ofc I can't directly relate it to you, mSorc and Gank are completely different play styles. Imagine if your 1v1 enemy knew exactly what you would do before you do it. They knew when your frag was coming, when you would try to stun, or when you're prepping to drop your Ultimate. In that situation, you would be at a severe disadvantage, and your enemy would have information that they were never intended to have. That is what Miat's does to stealth players.

When i´m fighting an enemy i win because i know what they are doing and what they want to do and when they want to do it. That is how i win fights. I´m not a better player. I´m more experienced and can counter what my enemie wants to do. I plan ahead and can orchestrate the fight into the direction i want to go.
That is what i think makes good pvp.

The problem i have with stealth in that regard is:
1. It gives you the advantage from choosing your fights and always engaging on your terms.
2. It gives you the biggest dmg bonus in the game.
3. It gives you a free long duration stun.

Ironically even with miats addons all of these advantages to still remain intact.
The only thing it negates is that an enemy will no longer be completely unaware of you if you prebuff yourself for a gank attempt.

Stealth gameplay in eso does not and has never allowed for any counterplay as it always revolved around instant kills from invisibility.
Remove the ability to instagib someone and i´m the first to advocate on getting rid of miats.

So let me be the first to answer your question. As you all know I been ganking for quite some time now and out of that time I have ganked quite a few gankers and now when ever a nb sees me I become the target. I do enjoy being ganked because every nb has got the same rotation if you can't figure how to counter this rotation it's definitely a l2p issue there should only be a handful of nb's that can actually do work and be effective at what they do. I mean seriously it usually takes like 3 nb's to gank me and I'm a nb it should be insta death.

Derra

joe.smith21b14_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

This will be my last direct reply to your comments in this thread. If the above is how you're actually interpreting the things I'm saying, I could have saved time by not commenting here at all, lol. Instead of constructive replies, you've resorted to....misinterpreting my words... It's my sincere hope that the API is changed so that certain aspects of Miat's are changed, and I think that dialogue concerning it is important. ZOS needs to make a decision on it and stick to that decision, the sooner the better. If ZOS deems ganking too easy, unfair, or unhealthy for the game, I'm hopeful they will make those changes soon.

Are you serious?

You´re ignoring the question i´ve posed 3 of my replies ago - which still is how does ganking greate good and fun gameplay. You can only explain how ganking is fun for the ganker.
You completely fail to adress the point that every gank requires someone getting ganked. It´s not fun. I don´t know any person that finds getting ganked even remotely in the realm of fun.
Ofc i´m going to make sarcastic comments when someone chooses to selectively answer the part of the question that fits his own point of view.
And then you tell me i´m misinterpreting your words and you won´t reply anymore? Good form.

I don´t know what to make of the defensive rune statement. "..." does not say much.

The_Outsider wrote: »

@Derra I'm not going to reply to each point it's simply too scattered.

Perhaps I didn't emphasize my point very well... You read what I said, but just attacked the random example that I pulled out of nowhere...Ofc I can't directly relate it to you, mSorc and Gank are completely different play styles. Imagine if your 1v1 enemy knew exactly what you would do before you do it. They knew when your frag was coming, when you would try to stun, or when you're prepping to drop your Ultimate. In that situation, you would be at a severe disadvantage, and your enemy would have information that they were never intended to have. That is what Miat's does to stealth players.

When i´m fighting an enemy i win because i know what they are doing and what they want to do and when they want to do it. That is how i win fights. I´m not a better player. I´m more experienced and can counter what my enemie wants to do. I plan ahead and can orchestrate the fight into the direction i want to go.
That is what i think makes good pvp.

The problem i have with stealth in that regard is:
1. It gives you the advantage from choosing your fights and always engaging on your terms.
2. It gives you the biggest dmg bonus in the game.
3. It gives you a free long duration stun.

Ironically even with miats addons all of these advantages to still remain intact.
The only thing it negates is that an enemy will no longer be completely unaware of you if you prebuff yourself for a gank attempt.

Stealth gameplay in eso does not and has never allowed for any counterplay as it always revolved around instant kills from invisibility.
Remove the ability to instagib someone and i´m the first to advocate on getting rid of miats.

So let me be the first to answer your question. As you all know I been ganking for quite some time now and out of that time I have ganked quite a few gankers and now when ever a nb sees me I become the target. I do enjoy being ganked because every nb has got the same rotation if you can't figure how to counter this rotation it's definitely a l2p issue there should only be a handful of nb's that can actually do work and be effective at what they do. I mean seriously it usually takes like 3 nb's to gank me and I'm a nb it should be insta death.

It takes a lot of potatoes to gank me. That has nothing to do with the discussion.

Good vs bad players don´t make for an argument. The handful NBs you´re mentioning are what´s interesting.

I can´t counter a rotation that hits me with a stun and i die while breaking said stun. I´ve not seen anyone countering it aswell except if they simply have enough HP and armor to not instantly die. That´s only an option in heavy though.

But please do let me know what i can do to counter up to 35k dmg hitting me within 1 second apart from not getting hit.

Kas

Hey Miat, can you please add a notification not only for stealth and channel attacks but every projectile and charge? I want to abuse this ridiculous API design until ZOS will finally fix it. Even now, it's totally *** how strong it it. Just say you 1v4 and someone spams WB. Can be hard to see at times but with the add-on you can block the attacks perfectly without wasting stam on other stuff.

while we're at it, why can't the add-on block all that on its own? /s

Maybe then, they'll fix their game.. With enough lag, I don't even see projectiles anymore so an add-on telling me what's up is so OP. Same with one shots from stealth. *** mechanic, imho from-stealth bonus should be a HUGE resource drain or cost increase to give the ganker an advantage, not a huge damage boost to end some fights within a fraction of a second.

LegendaryMage

A certain streamer tried to gank me today while I was petrified on my mount. He failed horribly, died shortly after and then accused me of using this addon along with a bunch of other excuses. Priceless.

Sigtric

Derra wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I want to be able to instantly kill everybody from invisibility. Anything impairing that functionality is basically cheating.

I want to be completely immune to all attacks from invisibility. I am elite and anyone that can kill me should not be allowed to do so, even at the cost of nullifying an entire build and play style.

So explain to me. In what way do instantkills create good/fun gameplay?

Playing as a hunter of enemies is a lot of fun for many people. Stalk your prey, find the right positioning and moment for a strike. Depending on if others are around and other factors this can be done in seconds, just a couple minutes or even longer.

There's a certain thrill to be had when you jump into a group of enemy players, take out a weak target and GTFO with out being seen.

Might not be fun for the target, but some people enjoy a playstyle that is designed into the game.

Waffennacht

@Derra you think that cowboy with an arrow in his chest wanted a fair fight?

Probably, but this is war

Kutsuu

LegendaryMage wrote: »

A certain streamer tried to gank me today while I was petrified on my mount. He failed horribly, died shortly after and then accused me of using this addon along with a bunch of other excuses. Priceless.

Just FYI - you can hit the dismount button then break the petrify normally.

Kutsuu

Kas wrote: »

Hey Miat, can you please add a notification not only for stealth and channel attacks but every projectile and charge? I want to abuse this ridiculous API design until ZOS will finally fix it. Even now, it's totally *** how strong it it. Just say you 1v4 and someone spams WB. Can be hard to see at times but with the add-on you can block the attacks perfectly without wasting stam on other stuff.

while we're at it, why can't the add-on block all that on its own? /s

Maybe then, they'll fix their game.. With enough lag, I don't even see projectiles anymore so an add-on telling me what's up is so OP. Same with one shots from stealth. *** mechanic, imho from-stealth bonus should be a HUGE resource drain or cost increase to give the ganker an advantage, not a huge damage boost to end some fights within a fraction of a second.

You already have a super reliable notification for charges coming at you. The gap closer snare shows an effect around your feet and you can easily "feel" it.

LegendaryMage

Kutsuu wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

A certain streamer tried to gank me today while I was petrified on my mount. He failed horribly, died shortly after and then accused me of using this addon along with a bunch of other excuses. Priceless.

Just FYI - you can hit the dismount button then break the petrify normally.

I don't get petrified on my mount often, so I just used my right mouse button to auto dismount and block at the same time after petrify got broken with the ganker's damage. I just find it very interesting how people are allowed to go around and spread crap without worrying about it. It's not even 'I think this guy might have used it', it's straight up 'I know this guy uses it'.

kadar

joe.smith21b14_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

This will be my last direct reply to your comments in this thread. If the above is how you're actually interpreting the things I'm saying, I could have saved time by not commenting here at all, lol. Instead of constructive replies, you've resorted to....misinterpreting my words... It's my sincere hope that the API is changed so that certain aspects of Miat's are changed, and I think that dialogue concerning it is important. ZOS needs to make a decision on it and stick to that decision, the sooner the better. If ZOS deems ganking too easy, unfair, or unhealthy for the game, I'm hopeful they will make those changes soon.

Are you serious?

You´re ignoring the question i´ve posed 3 of my replies ago - which still is how does ganking greate good and fun gameplay. You can only explain how ganking is fun for the ganker.
You completely fail to adress the point that every gank requires someone getting ganked. It´s not fun. I don´t know any person that finds getting ganked even remotely in the realm of fun.
Ofc i´m going to make sarcastic comments when someone chooses to selectively answer the part of the question that fits his own point of view.
And then you tell me i´m misinterpreting your words and you won´t reply anymore? Good form.

I don´t know what to make of the defensive rune statement. "..." does not say much.

The_Outsider wrote: »

@Derra I'm not going to reply to each point it's simply too scattered.

Perhaps I didn't emphasize my point very well... You read what I said, but just attacked the random example that I pulled out of nowhere...Ofc I can't directly relate it to you, mSorc and Gank are completely different play styles. Imagine if your 1v1 enemy knew exactly what you would do before you do it. They knew when your frag was coming, when you would try to stun, or when you're prepping to drop your Ultimate. In that situation, you would be at a severe disadvantage, and your enemy would have information that they were never intended to have. That is what Miat's does to stealth players.

When i´m fighting an enemy i win because i know what they are doing and what they want to do and when they want to do it. That is how i win fights. I´m not a better player. I´m more experienced and can counter what my enemie wants to do. I plan ahead and can orchestrate the fight into the direction i want to go.
That is what i think makes good pvp.

The problem i have with stealth in that regard is:
1. It gives you the advantage from choosing your fights and always engaging on your terms.
2. It gives you the biggest dmg bonus in the game.
3. It gives you a free long duration stun.

Ironically even with miats addons all of these advantages to still remain intact.
The only thing it negates is that an enemy will no longer be completely unaware of you if you prebuff yourself for a gank attempt.

Stealth gameplay in eso does not and has never allowed for any counterplay as it always revolved around instant kills from invisibility.
Remove the ability to instagib someone and i´m the first to advocate on getting rid of miats.

So let me be the first to answer your question. As you all know I been ganking for quite some time now and out of that time I have ganked quite a few gankers and now when ever a nb sees me I become the target. I do enjoy being ganked because every nb has got the same rotation if you can't figure how to counter this rotation it's definitely a l2p issue there should only be a handful of nb's that can actually do work and be effective at what they do. I mean seriously it usually takes like 3 nb's to gank me and I'm a nb it should be insta death.

Agreed @joe.smith21b14_ESO . I feel similarly about being ganked. Even when it's YOU ganking me, lol. You're never going to answer this question for Derra, even if you do. "You didn't answer my question." And when you do, "You didn't answer it for ppl wearing light/medium armor." "That has nothing to do with the discussion." He doesn't actually want an answer, he just want ganking to not exist, fullstop.

Ganking is fun. Not everyone enjoys it, and that's okay. Many ESO players enjoy it as their primary goal, or as opportunity allows. There is thrill in not being seen, avoiding the enemy, other gankers, and magelight spammers, waiting for the opportune moment, and executing a practiced burst combo. There are hundreds of things that can go wrong during this process. I won't argue this much, because you seem set in your opinion.

... think about the dynamics of ganking, thrill of the hunt/chase. Group play-- taking out a key/priority target as your group battles. Anyway... Personally I've been ganked 100% to dead by 1 player a total of 1 time in the past few months. I actually enjoy when players attempt to gank me. There's nothing more rewarding than tracking down the dirty bugger after he fails and slaughtering him (amiright?). And if he is successful, I view it as a challenge. I'll get him next time.

I think you may have been the 1 (solo) ganker that got me recently. The whole situation is fun for me: "It's quiet...too quiet." BOOM, see the stun and procs--frantically spam CC break-->ROLL-->POTIONHEALcounterCC. It either works or it doesn't. It's thrilling for me, and for you trying to kill me. If you succeed, I /golfclap and scold myself for letting my buffs drop off on siege. The folks who rage after getting ganked are the only ones who really lose in these situations.

kadar

Might not be fun for the target, but some people enjoy a playstyle that is designed into the game.

Here's another key concept to understand in video games:Dying will always be less fun than not dying. Or in other words: the killer will have more fun that the dead.

It's a key fallacy that you see in all the worst forum threads: "X ability/concept/build is not fun for me for Y and Z reasons, therefore it should not exist."

Derra

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra you think that cowboy with an arrow in his chest wanted a fair fight?

Probably, but this is war

This isn´t war - it´s a computer game where all players want to have fun.

Dorrino

Derra wrote: »

I don´t have anything against stealthy builds or an evasive playstyle in general. What i have a problem with are instantkills and permanent invisibility without any drawbacks associated.
An attack without warning from suprise is ok when there are reasonable means to recover from it. The playstyle should give you an advantage. It should however not decide the engagement before it even began.

Exactly.

Derra wrote: »

If stealthganking would allow the same room of counterplay as someone proccing a frag or activating destro ultimate does i don´t thing we would have ever seen miats addon.
In fact im 100% sure we wouldn´t have just by judging the forum posts of the addons creator.

As the creator i can confirm that this is most likely correct. Even though i think the other features of the addon are fun in themselves. But it all started with ''maybe pre-channeling heavies from stealth needs a notification or something'-type of thinking.

Darnathian

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t have anything against stealthy builds or an evasive playstyle in general. What i have a problem with are instantkills and permanent invisibility without any drawbacks associated.
An attack without warning from suprise is ok when there are reasonable means to recover from it. The playstyle should give you an advantage. It should however not decide the engagement before it even began.

Exactly.

Derra wrote: »

If stealthganking would allow the same room of counterplay as someone proccing a frag or activating destro ultimate does i don´t thing we would have ever seen miats addon.
In fact im 100% sure we wouldn´t have just by judging the forum posts of the addons creator.

As the creator i can confirm that this is most likely correct. Even though i think the other features of the addon are fun in themselves. But it all started with ''maybe pre-channeling heavies from stealth needs a notification or something'-type of

Its awful. This is a game breaking add on that negates a style of play. The info is there. They would have created it themselves if they wanted. You should have kept this to yourself. All this does is make me wonder all the other add ons and cheats people are doing. Never thought this stuff was possible

I wish you would have simply released a video showing its use. Not released it to the masses knowing how long any changes come from zos.