Breath of Life Cost Increase

CatchMeTrolling

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You realize increasing the cost will just make healers stack more recovery? Lol wouldn't fix anything

You realize that making healers stack more recovery would cause them to sacrifice something else, say maybe tankiness because they have to wear light armor or drop reactive. I see your name isn't CatchMeTrolling for no reason.

Lol they're healers what else what they need to drop? You don't need to be in light to have infinite recovery, do you know how much recovery you can stack on heavy? Lol

You don't even know what you're talking about right now. You say drop heavy as if people didn't go on rants about Templar healing before heavy armor was a thing.

Blackfyre20

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lol they're healers what else what they need to drop? You don't need to be in light to have infinite recovery, do you know how much recovery you can stack on heavy? Lol

You don't even know what you're talking about right now. You say drop heavy as if people didn't go on rants about Templar healing before heavy armor was a thing.

I am indeed aware of the recovery you can achieve with heavy armor as I do play the game and visit the forums from time to time... and well having to drop reactive armor for a more sustained based set would make a HUGE difference in tankiness, fixing the problem of this cancer build (that does exist in cyrodiil and everyone except for you can at least agree on that). Also I did not have a problem with templars "before heavy armor was a thing" and that really has nothing to do with anything. Additionally, as stated above, this easy mode single button spam is not exclusive to templars, but this is a very clear example of it. It is exhausting having to walk you through the cause and effect of everything so this will be my last response to you hopefully.

CatchMeTrolling

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lol they're healers what else what they need to drop? You don't need to be in light to have infinite recovery, do you know how much recovery you can stack on heavy? Lol

You don't even know what you're talking about right now. You say drop heavy as if people didn't go on rants about Templar healing before heavy armor was a thing.

I am indeed aware of the recovery you can achieve with heavy armor as I do play the game and visit the forums from time to time... and well having to drop reactive armor for a more sustained based set would make a HUGE difference in tankiness, fixing the problem of this cancer build (that does exist in cyrodiil and everyone except for you can at least agree on that). Also I did not have a problem with templars "before heavy armor was a thing" and that really has nothing to do with anything. Additionally, as stated above, this easy mode single button spam is not exclusive to templars, but this is a very clear example of it. It is exhausting having to walk you through the cause and effect of everything so this will be my last response to you hopefully.

You've basically keep repeating reactive armor, haven't seen you mention another set so wouldn't the more logical thing be to nerf reactive? And the fact people complained about healing before heavy has everything to do with your argument. You're acting as if this is new, you're acting as if no one wanted healing to be nerfed (which it has been multiple times ) you're acting as if this change would suddenly make healing nerf threads go away (which it wouldn't )

Like I said before you're looking for a reason for healing to be nerfed this time around, right now your argument is heavy armor /reactive before it was something else and in the future it'll be another reason. This is an endless cycle...

Blackfyre20

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You've basically keep repeating reactive armor, haven't seen you mention another set so wouldn't the more logical thing be to nerf reactive? And the fact people complained about healing before heavy has everything to do with your argument. You're acting as if this is new, you're acting as if no one wanted healing to be nerfed (which it has been multiple times ) you're acting as if this change would suddenly make healing nerf threads go away (which it wouldn't )

Like I said before you're looking for a reason for healing to be nerfed this time around, right now your argument is heavy armor /reactive before it was something else and in the future it'll be another reason. This is an endless cycle...

Don't want to nerf healing, I want to nerf single button spamming being a viable and productive thing to do in cyrodiil. If making healing more involved than that is nerfing it than so be it. As stated in prior posts, give BoL the extra heal back, my problem isn't with healing. Don't put words in my mouth. And yes reactive allows that because it lets you survive without using any sort of strategical skillful play like LOS. Just get beat on by a buncha players, no need to reactively block or avoid CCs, get back up and mash that button.

Paraflex

Joy_Division wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

Templar Gear/Skills Problem

25% Reactive
25% Malubeth
15% Heavy Armor
10% Healthplar Blazing Shields
15% BOL
10% Other Issues

Stacking all this together is a cancer BOL should get a cost increase but Reactive needs an adjustment as well with other stuff. Fact is Templars need some nerfs

It's not a fact. It's an opinion. Go ahead and nerf BoL for a 3rd consecutive patch and ruin PvE because you seek simple solutions to complex problems.

Ever consider that maybe templars are strong now not because ZoS buffed them - they didn't by the way, pre-IC templar was stronger by a fair bit then with what we are playing with now - rather they just happen to be the best fit as to how Zos has change combat in ESO (heavy armor buff, poison / debuff spam, can heal self while having three of the new powerful full armor set bonuses, fixed vamp mist giving it mobility it could not access befroe, etc).

If you have to rely on BOL for PVE your doing it wrong use healing springs and healing orbs newb

Paraflex

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You realize increasing the cost will just make healers stack more recovery? Lol wouldn't fix anything

You realize that making healers stack more recovery would cause them to sacrifice something else, say maybe tankiness because they have to wear light armor or drop reactive. I see your name isn't CatchMeTrolling for no reason.

They should have to give up tankiness for healing it's awesome right now being a heavy armor Templar healer in PvP no one can easily kill you.

Akinos

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

Protip from a templar: Heal debuffs will absolutely screw us over. Can't purify and BoL at the same time, and if we're spamming BoL or purify that means we aren't putting out any damage either. This whole thread sounds like one big L2P issue. All these nerf templar threads make me sick. Quit trying to get the most nerfed class nerfed even further and just get good.

Yup, I went there and said that, GET GOOD.

I've played quite a lot of magplar and heal debuffs are only a problem when you are heavily outnumbered. Otherwise purging each one and continuing to BoL spam away is rather simple. Never mentioned dealing with well rounded templars who are trying to output damage also. These templars might actually benefit from a base cost decrease that doesn't hurt until you hit it 3-4 times repeatedly. So yea its a given that the cancer reactive/malubeth templar isn't gonna put out much/any damage. The most nerfed class... that doesn't even warrant any kind of reply. I wouldn't get too sick over the thread though, I'm sure you'll get to keep your one button healer easy mode so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Apparently you haven't played magplar enough, because if you had you would know that it really is the most nerfed class, I bet you weren't around when we had blinding flashes were you? Heal debuffs aren't just an issue when you are outnumbered either, try fighting a high dps stamina class whose proc sets constantly go off while he reverb bash and ransack spams you.

"One button healer easy mode"? LOL, don't assume every magicka templar is just a healer. The only thing I'm worried about is noobs like you getting the class nerfed even more then it already has been with stupid threads like this one.

Joy_Division

nvm.

Blackfyre20

Akinos wrote: »

Apparently you haven't played magplar enough, because if you had you would know that it really is the most nerfed class, I bet you weren't around when we had blinding flashes were you? Heal debuffs aren't just an issue when you are outnumbered either, try fighting a high dps stamina class whose proc sets constantly go off while he reverb bash and ransack spams you.

"One button healer easy mode"? LOL, don't assume every magicka templar is just a healer. The only thing I'm worried about is noobs like you getting the class nerfed even more then it already has been with stupid threads like this one.

You musta missed dynamic ult gen, a working dragons blood, and wings reflecting infinite projectiles. Magplar is certainly a different class than it used to be but not the most nerfed and is one of the top two at the bare minimum if not the top magicka class.

See most of my other posts in the thread for proc sets, this entire thread is based on balance without OP broken proc sets which we should have next patch.

In another of my comments I mentioned that the magplar I play is not a healer, I know its a long thread but at least skim through some of it before posting. The adjustments I've put forward hopefully wouldn't effect you if you're playing more a dps templar, unless you often rely on hitting BoL 3-4 times in a row to stay alive in which case L2P. In fact, a lower base cost would probably help you for your situational use of BoL. Been around the game on and off since beta so careful where you're throwing around stupid and noob. Try to take a critical look at your class every once in a while and maybe you won't come off as such a narrow minded idiot (can I say that if he said stupid? seems fair).

Valen_Byte

There should be a timer on forum accounts....like you have to LEARN 2 PLAY before you can come here and gripe about things that aren't broken.

Blackfyre20

Valen_Byte wrote: »

There should be a timer on forum accounts....like you have to LEARN 2 PLAY before you can come here and gripe about things that aren't broken.

Constructive, insightful, and clever... truly the triple threat

FENGRUSH

Joy_Division wrote: »

nvm.

lol

Paraflex

What ever happens I hope ESO gets balance through any class or skill adjustment. Balance is what the majority of players want which promotes a healthy PvP environment. Not this garbage meta we currently have.

Cinbri

Akinos wrote: »

"One button healer easy mode"? LOL, don't assume every magicka templar is just a healer. The only thing I'm worried about is noobs like you getting the class nerfed even more then it already has been with stupid threads like this one.

Don't be afraid of it. Whatever changes of next update will be they already made it into stones and those threads won't change anything already.

Dasovaruilos

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

"But PROC SETS, PROC SETS, PROC SETS!!! L2P, YOU LOVE PROC SETS!" - most of the forumplars in this thread.

Not sure why I expected anything more, like something resembling a reasonable conversation. Proc sets are horrible for the game, killing PvP, and I certainly do not use them and am not QQing because I can't kill these templars with proc sets. Proc sets are not what this thread is about however. I feel like all the forumplars on here just love to redirect any concern over BoL, reactive armor, radiant, or anything else they hold dear to proc sets so that nobody notices how well some of these skills are performing. I think most of you are upset because I put a lot of emphasis on what a problem I think this healing meta is compared to other things, and sure there are other things that are more broken, but it's still an issue IMO.

If it makes you feel better I don't think spamming single skills over and over are only a templar problem and if it were up to me I'd give pretty much every skill except for spammable dd skills like surprise attack, sweeps, crushing shock, whip, dizzying swing, flurry, etc. a similar streak treatment in PvP. Again, 50% is harsh and I'd be all for lowering the base cost of abilities so that the increased cost doesn't come into play until after 3-4 times in less than 4-5ish seconds. But this would fix a lot of the perma root, gap closer spam, single button healing ftw issues. Healing springs is another one that wouldn't get this treatment though because that at least requires some thought, coordination, and aiming to be effective. Would probably like to see shields get the same treatment as well because really if you're casting the same shield >2 times in a 4 second span you're just panicking and hoping you can stay alive long enough by mashing healing ward for the zerg to come along to help you out. There are other ways to get out of sticky outnumbered situations than mashing one button and praying (See mist form, streak, roll dodge, LOS). Also if it makes people feel better I'd be all for giving BoL back that extra heal and increasing shield duration to 10 seconds. I don't mind having powerful skills in the game but I just don't think that should be able to be spammed repeatedly. I also don't like hard cooldowns so this is a nice middle ground.

PS: Bring back soft caps and I'll take back pretty much every single thing I have said above.

So, it looks like you want a massive, controversial change that will affect basically every type of content in this game, posted it on the forums, but want everyone to agree with you...

I indeed mentioned proc sets because you said this build was the worst in the game. But me and a few others proceeded to show you many, many ways this build can be countered and exposed many, many times how this build requires sacrifices. Also, many have said that you cannot spam BoL indefinitely, because no regen in this game will be able to recover spamming one of its most expensive abilities.

It looks like you want to be able to kill every single other player in the game by just bursting them down with DPS, even if you are outnumbered and if you face other skilled and organized players.

There was a very nice discussion here in this post. There were replies from both sides, people saying that there are limitations to this build, there are sacrifices to this build, situations where they are not effective and a bunch of ways to counter it.

The reasonable conversation is here, you just have to be open for it and for people disagreeing with you. You should expect people disagreeing with you if you want something this disruptive to the current state of the game.

I'm on the side that thinks that 1 player should NOT be able to easily kill 3, 4 players unless there is a HUGE gap in knowledge about the game and skill between them. Also, I'm on the side that thinks that it is important that this game has builds that prevents "one strategy to kill them all", as long as there are other ways to do it.

Pure DPS should NOT be able to kill every single other player or build on this game. I like that people have to think about negates, CC, poisions, strategies for draining resources, use of line of sight, all depending on the situation, group and environment where fights are happening.

RinaldoGandolphi

hugocbp wrote: »

I indeed mentioned proc sets because you said this build was the worst in the game. But me and a few others proceeded to show you many, many ways this build can be countered and exposed many, many times how this build requires sacrifices. Also, many have said that you cannot spam BoL indefinitely, because no regen in this game will be able to recover spamming one of its most expensive abilities.

Thats the thing though, there is no counter to these Reactive + Malabeth + Lich heavy Templars "Except Negate and Broken Root spam"

• Lich procs ensure they never run out of magicka
• poisons are purged off with cheap Purify
• They get stam return from heavy armor
• They take very little damage when CC or at low health thanks to Undeath and Reactive
• Vitality Pots combined with Major Mending, Malabeth increased healing, and Mending passive + 2 CP healing star increases(Red and Blue)
• Heavy Armor Healing passive

All this leads to a healer that is every bit as tanky as a full blown tank, with all the benefits of a healer and its flipping broken. A tank isn't healing all his friends and giving all his friends resources and support buffs like these Templars are....and if you can't kill them in an outnumbered scenario you have no chance.

Try running 2-3 man pvp and running into a group of 5-6 people with 2 of them being these kinds of Templars...its nearly impossible to win....You would have to put such an absurd amount of damage out on one of these guys that their friends will certainly kill you while you try to whittle down their tank healer, and even if you get one low on health, his friend will wave his hand once and bring him right back to full health again...if they get low on Stam they simply Mist Form and let Stam Regen tick a few times. What are, say two Stamina DK running together without Negate supposed to do about it? there is nothing we can do.....and if you can't kill the healer you can't win.


Without 1-2 Dedicated Sorc's set up solely to spam Restraining Prison and drop Negate(Like Fengrush's Support Build), these Templars are nearly impossible to kill, and even more so against another organized group and you don't have a Negate and root spammer with you...and the sad thing is Root is broken...your forced to use a broken game mechanic like root spam(How is there no cooldown on immobilizations?) and a class specific Ultimate just to counter a healer class that has all the advantages and tankiness of a tank, but spam huge heals and dishes out mad support to his group....even Tanks only fullfull one role good, but these guys can fill both roles...they tank as good as a dedicated tank, but have heals for everyone...its completely broken every bit as much as proc sets

Its not just Templar a Breath of Life...

Templar is only broken like this because of all the sets they released...it just allows you to have these ridiculous setups...like Lich coming in Jewelry and Sword and Shield now....never run a heavy armor spec out of magicka wearing that set...its just benefits Templars more because of the passives.

these ridiclious set ups only benefit zergs and they have killed small group pvp more then proc sets......most of these folks ganking with procs started ganking with proc sets because small group pvp is impossible now due to these tank healing Templars that are impossible to kill in small group play without using broken stuff....so they resorted to ganking with proc sets and I don't blame them....If your not a Sorc or don't have one or two Sorcs with you, you pretty much can't kill these guys...unless they are completely braindead....So what else are people supposed to do...theres nothing else they can do .......except find a Sorc or two....or gank.....

Dasovaruilos

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Try running 2-3 man pvp and running into a group of 5-6 people with 2 of them being these kinds of Templars...its nearly impossible to win....

Again, we are in the scenario of an outnumbered group wanting to win a bigger coordinated group...

I'll keep repeating, if you are outnumbered facing a coordinated group, you should lose.

If you are using Purify, you are not Breath of Life spamming.
If you are CC breaking, you are not Breath of Life spamming.
If you are running out of Negate bubbles, you are not Breath of Life spamming.
If you are giving resources to your group (shards, orbs), you are not Breath of Life spamming.
If you are buffing your group, you are not Breath of Life spamming.

I agree that the problem is Heavy Armor. You shouldn't have DAMAGE and MAGICKA SUSTAIN when you choose SURVIVIBILITY. I wanted to heal PvP without having to wear Heavy Armor. But now, unless you are a ganker, you have to.

It is not Templar's fault. It is not Breath of Life fault.

They should just bring back the old system:

If you choose Light Armor, you have magicka sustain and spell damage, low survivability.
If you choose Medium Armor, you have stamina sustain and weapon damage, low survivability.
If you choose Heavy Armor, you have stamina sustain and survivability, but low damage.

Just picking and nerfing Templars for finding a way to survive and do what they are supposed to do will just make this game a DPS exclusive thing again.

Ashamray

hugocbp wrote: »

I agree that the problem is Heavy Armor. You shouldn't have DAMAGE and MAGICKA SUSTAIN when you choose SURVIVIBILITY.

Sustain is one of the main parts of survivability

UppGRAYxDD

Nerf templar thread!

Ahhhhh, forums are back to normal......

Dasovaruilos

Ashamray wrote: »

hugocbp wrote: »

I agree that the problem is Heavy Armor. You shouldn't have DAMAGE and MAGICKA SUSTAIN when you choose SURVIVIBILITY.

Sustain is one of the main parts of survivability

It can be, I agree. But I mean having great sustain while still having great damage mitigation from Heavy Armor.

If you have HUGE sustain, but you die in 2 seconds because you don't have damage mitigation, it is worthless.

FENGRUSH

Valid points brought up here - think Rinaldo summed up how I feel in the last post really well. Templars are walking fortresses with amazing support. Had a great time playing one. But the core of this issue does not begin with nerfing BOL imo. It doesnt even start with the class.

Meta changes impact classes differently. Thats why - sorry to say to some of the templars - bringing the line up that templar has been nerfed so many times you cant nerf it again... has absolutely no place here. The class itself could get no changes patch to patch and become the weakest to the strongest due to other changes.

In this case, heavy armor was upgraded and helps in a big way. The other is getting any sets in any slots. Pair this ability to sustain with tanking on a templar with BOL and you have the current issue. If I had to go to BGs in the current meta with a 4 man group, itd likely start with 2 magplars and 2 something else - because they are versatile and effective. Its not the classes fault, its the environment changes. If you didnt have these changes to armors, magDK would still be absolutely terrible to the point of unplayable right now.

So we'll see what the next patch brings. Id always love to see other supplementary healing needed, but BOL is all thats needed really. Ive run that on my templar and had great success, and Im not running out of magicka (nearly 5k regen on nonCP campaign with lich on).

This issue is not simple. Its not *just cp*, *just heavy armor*, or *just reactive* etc. Its a culmination of things, and not all of them are necessary. Templar isnt the only class benefiting immensely by this idea either. But they are as a result, destroying any semblance of having a chance vs number differential. Thats the part that sucks the most. Whenver Im fighting a group outnumbered with my group, its 9/10 times a lot of templars just rotating heals and remembrances. The next meta is a scary place. If they just nerf heavy a bit, even a lot... the sets are still there for high survival. Sustain will not be impacted. If they tone proc sets down and destro ult.... magplars in these group environments are going to come out king. And we will have people saying "but they took away blinding flashes!" Great input.

Armitas

Speaking of healing in general.

Most games have healing that scales from a separate source from what damage scales from. That is not the case with eso, in eso healing scales with the same source as damage. Rather than rebuilding the entire game it might be worth thinking about having stances. I don't mean stances that you cast but that you build from your action bar. For example you could have a passive that increases healing based on how many healing or line abilities you have on that bar. You could always get around it with your back bar, but then you will lose some of your utility as well as having to swap bars to heal.

FENGRUSH

I dont want to jump to the conclusion of 'what the answer is' - because I dont think its really simple. Its not good to overburden the class if it wants to support, because then it cant do anything outside of supporting. The reality is its the best healer, so optimal group design pushes this towards doing a lot of support and then having beam to execute is sufficient.

Things are not getting fixed in a comfy place by next balance patch. But where this whole situation falls depends on their vision. Frankly I think dymanic ult gen is the solution we need that fixes a lot of issues. Fighting a group of 15-20 that is half templars healing?(yes this is the reality of cyro today)... then stall the fight out and dish out pressure through higher ult gen. I feel this is a valid tactic thats been shoved away. Its a meta shift, it would impact the issue, but it wouldnt break the class. Itd help out magDK rather than give it some wild buffs that it may receive (minus dragon blood, long overdue).

I dont know. Id start in a lot of other places is my point. But I dont know what ZOS wants to do. Without knowing their direction/vision on the grand scheme, its hard to know what to do for small problems down below that.

Joy_Division

@FENGRUSH is right.

Dasovaruilos

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Valid points brought up here - think Rinaldo summed up how I feel in the last post really well. Templars are walking fortresses with amazing support. Had a great time playing one. But the core of this issue does not begin with nerfing BOL imo. It doesnt even start with the class.

Meta changes impact classes differently. Thats why - sorry to say to some of the templars - bringing the line up that templar has been nerfed so many times you cant nerf it again... has absolutely no place here. The class itself could get no changes patch to patch and become the weakest to the strongest due to other changes.

In this case, heavy armor was upgraded and helps in a big way. The other is getting any sets in any slots. Pair this ability to sustain with tanking on a templar with BOL and you have the current issue. If I had to go to BGs in the current meta with a 4 man group, itd likely start with 2 magplars and 2 something else - because they are versatile and effective. Its not the classes fault, its the environment changes. If you didnt have these changes to armors, magDK would still be absolutely terrible to the point of unplayable right now.

So we'll see what the next patch brings. Id always love to see other supplementary healing needed, but BOL is all thats needed really. Ive run that on my templar and had great success, and Im not running out of magicka (nearly 5k regen on nonCP campaign with lich on).

This issue is not simple. Its not *just cp*, *just heavy armor*, or *just reactive* etc. Its a culmination of things, and not all of them are necessary. Templar isnt the only class benefiting immensely by this idea either. But they are as a result, destroying any semblance of having a chance vs number differential. Thats the part that sucks the most. Whenver Im fighting a group outnumbered with my group, its 9/10 times a lot of templars just rotating heals and remembrances. The next meta is a scary place. If they just nerf heavy a bit, even a lot... the sets are still there for high survival. Sustain will not be impacted. If they tone proc sets down and destro ult.... magplars in these group environments are going to come out king. And we will have people saying "but they took away blinding flashes!" Great input.

Yes, it is a consequence of a much bigger issue. That is why nerfing Breath of Life is not the answer.

They should look at everything, from Heavy Armor to the bonuses from sets, passing through Champion Points.

A heavy armor tank/healer should not be viable and extremely effective on both roles.

But just adjusting Reactive and/or Breath of Life is not going to solve those kind of situations.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

What @FENGRUSH seems to understand, and some do not, is that the Templar class can be the best or worst at every role in the game depending on the situation, gear, and person playing it.

We have a tool set that you can do almost anything you want with. There is no one way to correctly play a Templar.

Meetre

Said it once and will again...fix the problem not the effect. BoL, heavy armor, proc sets...not the problem.

olivesforge

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Two different posters have pointed out the Achilles heal of all tanks and healers - poisons. Yet a search for the word "poison" shows that it doesn't appear outside their posts.

I translate this thread as: I am another DPS who plays ESO like an FPS and skill isn't about counters but who procs the most first.

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Pushing X, X, X: No skill
Pushing X, Y, X: Skill
Pushing X, Y, B: Super Leet Skill Bro

I'm not sure if this nonsense is garbage or if this garbage is nonsense but regardless, the pattern in which you smash buttons in no way shows your skill level.

If you're having trouble with one skill, it's your skill level that's the problem not theirs.

You can throw it in the trash can right next to the spreadsheet warriors perfect mathematical builds in which they have no idea how to play and the PVErs who complain about PVP Zergs while only PVPing in groups of 135 level 24s.

somuchwin.jpg

So much truth in these two. Entire thread is a few people complaining about how they can't beat a player in heavy who is spamming a double-nerfed ability, or that it's hard to kill other players. Boo hoo.

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You realize increasing the cost will just make healers stack more recovery? Lol wouldn't fix anything

You realize that making healers stack more recovery would cause them to sacrifice something else, say maybe tankiness because they have to wear light armor or drop reactive. I see your name isn't CatchMeTrolling for no reason.

I've already got 2 post-"nerf BoL" builds that are every bit as cancerous. You will enjoy them.

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Templar healing is ridiculous, a Templar wearing Malubeth and Reactive is the sole reason why 1vX is dead and why stamina builds get proc sets.

And here we arrive at the real reason some people are cheesed - the fact that you can't kill an entire Zerg with one player. Which would seem to be common sense to all but Hattori wannabes who think that MMORPGs are the same thing as 2D fighters. Go back to playing Mortal Kombat. Can I have your stuff?

Koolio

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

hugocbp wrote: »

I indeed mentioned proc sets because you said this build was the worst in the game. But me and a few others proceeded to show you many, many ways this build can be countered and exposed many, many times how this build requires sacrifices. Also, many have said that you cannot spam BoL indefinitely, because no regen in this game will be able to recover spamming one of its most expensive abilities.

Thats the thing though, there is no counter to these Reactive + Malabeth + Lich heavy Templars "Except Negate and Broken Root spam"

• Lich procs ensure they never run out of magicka
• poisons are purged off with cheap Purify
• They get stam return from heavy armor
• They take very little damage when CC or at low health thanks to Undeath and Reactive
• Vitality Pots combined with Major Mending, Malabeth increased healing, and Mending passive + 2 CP healing star increases(Red and Blue)
• Heavy Armor Healing passive

All this leads to a healer that is every bit as tanky as a full blown tank, with all the benefits of a healer and its flipping broken. A tank isn't healing all his friends and giving all his friends resources and support buffs like these Templars are....and if you can't kill them in an outnumbered scenario you have no chance.

Try running 2-3 man pvp and running into a group of 5-6 people with 2 of them being these kinds of Templars...its nearly impossible to win....You would have to put such an absurd amount of damage out on one of these guys that their friends will certainly kill you while you try to whittle down their tank healer, and even if you get one low on health, his friend will wave his hand once and bring him right back to full health again...if they get low on Stam they simply Mist Form and let Stam Regen tick a few times. What are, say two Stamina DK running together without Negate supposed to do about it? there is nothing we can do.....and if you can't kill the healer you can't win.


Without 1-2 Dedicated Sorc's set up solely to spam Restraining Prison and drop Negate(Like Fengrush's Support Build), these Templars are nearly impossible to kill, and even more so against another organized group and you don't have a Negate and root spammer with you...and the sad thing is Root is broken...your forced to use a broken game mechanic like root spam(How is there no cooldown on immobilizations?) and a class specific Ultimate just to counter a healer class that has all the advantages and tankiness of a tank, but spam huge heals and dishes out mad support to his group....even Tanks only fullfull one role good, but these guys can fill both roles...they tank as good as a dedicated tank, but have heals for everyone...its completely broken every bit as much as proc sets

Its not just Templar a Breath of Life...

Templar is only broken like this because of all the sets they released...it just allows you to have these ridiculous setups...like Lich coming in Jewelry and Sword and Shield now....never run a heavy armor spec out of magicka wearing that set...its just benefits Templars more because of the passives.

these ridiclious set ups only benefit zergs and they have killed small group pvp more then proc sets......most of these folks ganking with procs started ganking with proc sets because small group pvp is impossible now due to these tank healing Templars that are impossible to kill in small group play without using broken stuff....so they resorted to ganking with proc sets and I don't blame them....If your not a Sorc or don't have one or two Sorcs with you, you pretty much can't kill these guys...unless they are completely braindead....So what else are people supposed to do...theres nothing else they can do .......except find a Sorc or two....or gank.....

Your view of a tank might differ than other people's. Tank is taking damage and supporting the group. It just so happens this class tanks differently that that of a Block Tank. Just blocking with the occasional CC. Waiting for heals. I built mine to not block a lot and to use my expensive heal to stay at full health. Increasing BOL cost will kill my PVE Templar Tank that I run VDSA. It was not built for mitigation or resistances just regen and heals. The way im hearing it (maybe I'm reading it wrong) is that there is only one way to tank. DK and Blocking. This also has increased my small groups play. I'm able to actually heal a little 4-5k maybe a repentance and some shards. With the small group I run with 3-7 other people we can fight them without a nightblade killing me/us with a few snipes. I don't even use the setups your talking about. No Lich just Transmutation Reactive Engine Guardian. I been playing this for a while and realize that with this I can actually keep my small group small vs the giant zergs that roam this land. Otherwise we would have to increase our numbers to compete. Now one person with Defile and an extra 15% into CP I will heal myself for a whole 2k. It can be reapplied the same as I can purge it. Then it's an endless cycle of my burning through all resources just to gain some footing. If you have 2 stam DK then it shouldn't be too difficult to Reverb with some poisons and watch them struggle to spam BOL. With both is you using corrosive it doesn't matter if he's in heavy armor or not. I really dont want my PVE spec to get thrown away either( I play how I want unless you nerf it to the ground). It's took me a long time to get him some credit in pve. People would laugh as I asked for 3 DPS at the undaunted. But not on my DK. They would say "Oh a DK we don't need a healer then". They just tank differently. Repent on EG for stam sustained. So if they do nerf anything with Templars they need to be careful not to kill other specs that aren't "traditional" because of Pvp. We really need the patch notes to get an idea what ZOS has in mind. Sorry for errors I'm on my phone.

Blackfyre20

@hugocbp Yes I'd like to see a huge change like that affecting all classes and I understand there are a lot of people who would disagree with me. I am open to ideas from everyone and if you'll notice the only time I ever snap at someone on here is when they come in, usually without reading most of the posts in the thread, with "stupidest idea ever, L2P, noob, templars are the weakest class" nonsense.

I have two ways to counter these templars according to the thread, one being broken poisons (to an extent because of purge) and one being the negate/root spam. I would not consider this to be "many many ways." Also I have yet to see the sacrifices this build has to make. It is sacrificing damage if that is what you are referring to but my problem is with its ability to infinitely keep itself and others around it alive. I'd also like to add that with radiant they don't have to build any damage and can still contribute with that execute, but that is another topic.

I agree with the general sentiment in here that the issue is not solely BoL and is a combination of many things. I still think my idea of dropping the base cost of many abilities and then increasing the cost with repetitive use (>2 times in like 4-5 seconds) would promote more skillful play across the board. You'd have to rely one more than 1-2 skills to get anything done. Everyone has this huge issue with proc sets because you can burst someone down every few seconds with 1-2 buttons, and I agree that is broken. What everyone has no problem with apparently is instantly healing from nearly dead to full health, also with just 1-2 buttons. The outrage to fix one and being content with the other is strange to me. I understand that many would not necessarily like that change but I haven't seen anything in here to suggest that it wouldn't promote more skillful and thoughtful play.

Another thing is the other frustrating thing is when players come here saying that I'm just mad because my proc sets aren't bursting these templars down or I just want to be able to burst groups down with DPS. I don't use proc sets, they are bad for PvP, and no I don't think that I should be able to burn through groups with burst DPS. I don't like the burst meta and would much rather see fights being decided by good resource management, timely use of skills, and awareness of your surroundings, not by who can fire off their burst combo first. You are forced into this burst meta though if you are trying to kill other players and BoL is a huge reason why that is. I don't hate healing which has also been suggested and I don't hate how powerful BoL as a skill can be. What I do not care for is that such a powerful skill can be used over and over with little consequence.

Last thing about fighting in outnumbered groups... I don't think you should be able to 1v5, 2v8, etc. and win against any players who know really anything about the game. I do think that in a 3-4 person group you should have a decent shot against 6-7 if you are more skilled than the opposing group. Right now you have to be massively better than that 6 person group with 3 templars to have any shot at killing them, to the point where its almost impossible. If you disagree with any of that, that is fine, that's just where I'm coming from and what I think.