Breath of Life Cost Increase

Joy_Division

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Malubeth/reactive wearing templar healbots spamming BoL are the worst kind of cancer in PvP right now IMO. I dislike them more than proc set stackers I think (maybe, it's close). They are the toughest class to kill by far and they won't kill you, but the other members of their group who they are keeping alive will. Or, they will sit there holding block and spamming BoL until they get their destro ult and can go offfensive with one button. One or two BoL and a player goes from almost zero health to full health. In an outnumbered fight, if you try to focus the healer first (which generally should be a good strategy), they can keep themselves alive easily while their group members beat on you. And if you focus on other members of their group, you will get one down to almost no health to see them instantly go back to full. The malubeth/reactive set is cancerous for sure and is a huge reason why these templars can be so unkillable, but BoL is a problem. It should be an "oh sh**" heal and not one that can be spammed endlessly.

What I propose is a cost increase on subsequent casts of BoL, similar to how streak functions currently. 50% cost increase is over the top, but some sort of small increase each time it is recast within a certain time frame, say 4 seconds (I think that is what streak is), would solve this issue of templars being able to keep themselves and everyone in their small group alive by pressing a single button over and over again.

olsborg

Agreed with OP, bol spamming is a problem imo, just like streak spamming was back in the day.

soll

proc sets can't kill reactive templar? Heya, Let's go to forum and ask to kill PVE and non cp PVP just because YOU can't kill healer, who's doing his job? And malu-reactive templars are not death machines, if they can survive, doesn't mean they proc-kill everyone. But's let's nerf them, yea. Templars already are weak class.

L2P

White wabbit

So people's answer is to nerf something due to a few wearing sets that are the main issue

olsborg

White wabbit wrote: »

So people's answer is to nerf something due to a few wearing sets that are the main issue

If it was just a few....but its not, basicly 80% of templars I see are "abusing" this

Blackfyre20

soll wrote: »

proc sets can't kill reactive templar? Heya, Let's go to forum and ask to kill PVE and non cp PVP just because YOU can't kill healer, who's doing his job? And malu-reactive templars are not death machines, if they can survive, doesn't mean they proc-kill everyone. But's let's nerf them, yea. Templars already are weak class.

L2P

Certainly never mentioned proc sets not killing anything as I don't use them because I think they are horrible for the game. That last sentence is comical. Maybe the templar saying they're a weak class should L2P.

CatchMeTrolling

olsborg wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

So people's answer is to nerf something due to a few wearing sets that are the main issue

If it was just a few....but its not, basicly 80% of templars I see are "abusing" this

Haven't seen a reactive Templar in month's, most I see have plague doctor. People have been complaining about templar healing forever this is nothing new, just need something to point the finger at to justify why healing should be nerfed again and again.

Before when you got Templar quest and you said to yourself "this is going to take awhile " people complained about one of the least classes played and it still hasn't changed lol it's hilarious really

Blackfyre20

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Haven't seen a reactive Templar in month's...

Then any credibility you may have had is probably gone seeing as you don't PvP (assuming you're telling the truth about how many reactive templars you've seen.

CatchMeTrolling

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Haven't seen a reactive Templar in month's...

Then any credibility you may have had is probably gone seeing as you don't PvP (assuming you're telling the truth about how many reactive templars you've seen.

I probably have more pvp play time than you lol basically have an overlord and a few characters with moon's so yeah there you go

WillhelmBlack

Templar healing is ridiculous, a Templar wearing Malubeth and Reactive is the sole reason why 1vX is dead and why stamina builds get proc sets. That is why we have these sets still, Zenimax are balancing proc sets around these heal tanks and the heavy armour meta.

Wearing the Malutard set up says a lot about yourself as a gamer, same with a full proc set up and you are literally killing this MMO's PvP.

I am not bothered about Breath of Life at all, it really isn't the problem. Major Mending is a huge problem, it's increasing your heals even on the offensive (it never used to be like that), it's also stacking with Malubeth and lastly, whilst you are in Reactive mode completely crippled you are STILL getting 25% more heals from your purify that you will be stood in and what ever else passive heals you get from CP and armour. If Major Mending was disabled in PvP we'd see the true Templars out there and not these cheese 1-button re-rollers that makes up 90% of them at the moment. It would also bring back the awesome quick reaction playstyle an offensive Templar used to be like.

C'mon Forumplars, gimme all you got.

Isellskooma

hugocbp wrote: »

Isellskooma wrote: »

hugocbp wrote: »

While the problem with PvP is huge automatic skilless damage and dying in 1 second, you are worried about the ONLY build that kills absolutely no one?

I use my PvE healer in PvP for fun, not optimal, and unless I have a lot of DPSs around me, I'm AP waiting to be collected for enemies.

And this is actually an easily countered build: just use poisons. Healplars are only alive as long as they have resources.

So, there is a counter to this build, they give you plenty of time to react and counter act and you can safely ignore them and be on your way.

I really don't think this is the worse build right now.

Also, a good Sorcerer is usually much harder to kill than this build.

Lol, if you're getting Xv1 the Templar is never going to run out of resources. Yea if you're in a group it's easy to kill them, but when you're solo good luck you're not killing a reactive/malubeth healer.

1vX should only be possible when one player is vastly superior to others in terms of skill, including group coordination. If you are greatly outnumbered by a group of organized players, you should die.

Yea of course if it's a organized group there going to drop 20 destro ults on you. I know this already

Isellskooma

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

So people's answer is to nerf something due to a few wearing sets that are the main issue

If it was just a few....but its not, basicly 80% of templars I see are "abusing" this

Haven't seen a reactive Templar in month's, most I see have plague doctor. People have been complaining about templar healing forever this is nothing new, just need something to point the finger at to justify why healing should be nerfed again and again.

Before when you got Templar quest and you said to yourself "this is going to take awhile " people complained about one of the least classes played and it still hasn't changed lol it's hilarious really

What? We both play on Xbox NA and I see them everywhere.

But I honestly think Templars aren't OP at healing, it's just certain sets that allow them too Spam it forever and have good survivability.

Master_Kas

Akinos wrote: »

Protip from a templar: Heal debuffs will absolutely screw us over. Can't purify and BoL at the same time, and if we're spamming BoL or purify that means we aren't putting out any damage either. This whole thread sounds like one big L2P issue. All these nerf templar threads make me sick. Quit trying to get the most nerfed class nerfed even further and just get good.

Yup, I went there and said that, GET GOOD.

Most nerfed class? Think that throne belongs to magicka DK's ^^

Ragnaroek93

This is one of the most stupid ideas which I have heard since a long time. All you want to do is to completely destroy a class (which you have probably never played much) in both PvE and PvP just because you can't deal with them. Outside of group play templar is in a terrible spot and needs some buffs instead of nerfs.
The difference between streak cost increase and BoL cost increase is that streak is a freaking ESCAPE skill and not a defensive skill. Would be more similar if sorcs get increased cost on Hardened Ward. Sounds stupid, right? It is, and cost increase on BoL would be as stupid as cost increase on Hardened Ward.

Dasovaruilos

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

hugocbp wrote: »

It is not that it has no merit. It is just that this is the ONLY current effective way to be a healer in PvP, and I think that the problem is not as bad as he stated.

Reactive + Heavy Armor is the only way for a build focused on Magicka and without shields to stay alive to react a little bit before dying.

If the overall damage numbers and CC lock is addressed, then Reactive will need some adjustment.

Otherwise, considering a build that is only effective in a very specific situation the worse of PvP is a little bit of an exaggeration.

Smart use of mist form, LOS, and stamina management are all ways to stay alive (I agree about HA, definitely can't wear LA without shields). Reactive is the only way for magicka builds without shields to stay alive while standing in one place being focused by >3 people. So yea I don't think that should be a thing, especially when you can do that while at the same time providing healing to your group with one button, or 2 as some sort of purge is necessary.

I would like the changes I mentioned to be implemented alongside damage changes, specifically with proc sets. And CC lock definitely needs to be fixed.

This build is effective in any and every group situation. I said it is the worst IMO because it is the most frustrating for me to play against. Heavy armor proc set users are a huge problem that need to be fixed but I have (and I know I am in the minority) less issues with these players than the templars I mentioned. If I said that this is one of many balance issues that need to be addressed would that make you feel better and allow you to seriously consider the OP?

@CatchMeTrolling also no I have not played a light armor magplar this meta. I have played a heavy armor magplar focused on damage/solo play so I am aware there are other ways to stay alive than strapping on reactive/malubeth and mashing BoL.

Sorry if I sounded a little harsh, it was not my intention.

I just don't agree that this is a problem because to make a build like this you have to sacrifice soooo much stuff... Any changes to Reactive and healers will just die instantly again in PvP, any changes to BoL and healers will be completely useless again.

Both in PvP and PvE this game is all about DPS. Most dungeons now are better and faster for a 3 DPS / 1 Half-Healer, Half-DPS group. If you nerf Breath of Life, them it will be all 4 DPSs with Vigor for everything.

This game needs diversity and group strategy. Needs tanks, healers, supports to have a part to play. This build has the goal of staying alive and supporting, sacrificing basically all damage.

I don't see a problem having a strong survivable build if you need to basically give up completely on doing damage. I've seem Malubeth / Reactive healers not being able to kill even level 30s...

For me, I'd love to see PvP groups that need 2 healers, 2 support, 1 tank and a few DPSs to be effective. Today, most groups are 100% DPSs that just melts everything down, with no group strategy.

Wreuntzylla

Two different posters have pointed out the Achilles heal of all tanks and healers - poisons. Yet a search for the word "poison" shows that it doesn't appear outside their posts.

I translate this thread as: I am another DPS who plays ESO like an FPS and skill isn't about counters but who procs the most first.

Ashamray

Negate and aoe roots with hard CC is a deadly combination against healers. If you just dpsing them why you think that your dps must be stronger than their heal?

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Pushing X, X, X: No skill
Pushing X, Y, X: Skill
Pushing X, Y, B: Super Leet Skill Bro

I'm not sure if this nonsense is garbage or if this garbage is nonsense but regardless, the pattern in which you smash buttons in no way shows your skill level.

If you're having trouble with one skill, it's your skill level that's the problem not theirs.

You can throw it in the trash can right next to the spreadsheet warriors perfect mathematical builds in which they have no idea how to play and the PVErs who complain about PVP Zergs while only PVPing in groups of 135 level 24s.

CatchMeTrolling

Master_Kas wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

Protip from a templar: Heal debuffs will absolutely screw us over. Can't purify and BoL at the same time, and if we're spamming BoL or purify that means we aren't putting out any damage either. This whole thread sounds like one big L2P issue. All these nerf templar threads make me sick. Quit trying to get the most nerfed class nerfed even further and just get good.

Yup, I went there and said that, GET GOOD.

Most nerfed class? Think that throne belongs to magicka DK's ^^

That's actually debatable Templar's have been getting nerfed directly and indirectly for awhile.

Paraflex

Templar Gear/Skills Problem

25% Reactive
25% Malubeth
15% Heavy Armor
10% Healthplar Blazing Shields
15% BOL
10% Other Issues

Stacking all this together is a cancer BOL should get a cost increase but Reactive needs an adjustment as well with other stuff. Fact is Templars need some nerfs

Blackfyre20

"But PROC SETS, PROC SETS, PROC SETS!!! L2P, YOU LOVE PROC SETS!" - most of the forumplars in this thread.

Not sure why I expected anything more, like something resembling a reasonable conversation. Proc sets are horrible for the game, killing PvP, and I certainly do not use them and am not QQing because I can't kill these templars with proc sets. Proc sets are not what this thread is about however. I feel like all the forumplars on here just love to redirect any concern over BoL, reactive armor, radiant, or anything else they hold dear to proc sets so that nobody notices how well some of these skills are performing. I think most of you are upset because I put a lot of emphasis on what a problem I think this healing meta is compared to other things, and sure there are other things that are more broken, but it's still an issue IMO.

If it makes you feel better I don't think spamming single skills over and over are only a templar problem and if it were up to me I'd give pretty much every skill except for spammable dd skills like surprise attack, sweeps, crushing shock, whip, dizzying swing, flurry, etc. a similar streak treatment in PvP. Again, 50% is harsh and I'd be all for lowering the base cost of abilities so that the increased cost doesn't come into play until after 3-4 times in less than 4-5ish seconds. But this would fix a lot of the perma root, gap closer spam, single button healing ftw issues. Healing springs is another one that wouldn't get this treatment though because that at least requires some thought, coordination, and aiming to be effective. Would probably like to see shields get the same treatment as well because really if you're casting the same shield >2 times in a 4 second span you're just panicking and hoping you can stay alive long enough by mashing healing ward for the zerg to come along to help you out. There are other ways to get out of sticky outnumbered situations than mashing one button and praying (See mist form, streak, roll dodge, LOS). Also if it makes people feel better I'd be all for giving BoL back that extra heal and increasing shield duration to 10 seconds. I don't mind having powerful skills in the game but I just don't think that should be able to be spammed repeatedly. I also don't like hard cooldowns so this is a nice middle ground.

PS: Bring back soft caps and I'll take back pretty much every single thing I have said above.

Ashamray

Stupid idea ever.
PvPers, do you understand that your freaking call of nerf hits the whole healing system in teso, huh?

Blackfyre20

Ashamray wrote: »

Stupid idea ever.
PvPers, do you understand that your freaking call of nerf hits the whole healing system in teso, huh?

About the third or fourth comment in the thread I said that balancing PvP and PvE can be impossible so make it a PvP only effect.

Koolio

Bol was already nerfed 25% a few patches ago(3rd heal) and resources management ( calculations update) now you want more. So a nightblade can use a spam able(mostly) ultimate to do 10k damage on a heavy armor Templar. But I can't use my 4000+ costing move to try and recover. Two of these Bol and one extended ritual I'm at 11k magic usage. Only to have then hit me again with an incap. Another 11k magic. This doesn't include any other damage the nightblade does. 5k heavy 4K surprise 3-4K viper 5-8 Velidreth 6-9k incap. 23k damage at a cost of 50 ultimate and 3000 stam would take 20k magic to health through. If you increase the cost 20% I have to use 2 more to heal through the damage caused by 5-6k stam.

Ashamray

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Stupid idea ever.
PvPers, do you understand that your freaking call of nerf hits the whole healing system in teso, huh?

About the third or fourth comment in the thread I said that balancing PvP and PvE can be impossible so make it a PvP only effect.

I doubt it's possible because zenimax. There are class templates in WoW for pve and pvp, maybe someday there will be templates for Tamriel and Cyrodiil.

Blackfyre20

Koolio wrote: »

Bol was already nerfed 25% a few patches ago(3rd heal) and resources management ( calculations update) now you want more. So a nightblade can use a spam able(mostly) ultimate to do 10k damage on a heavy armor Templar. But I can't use my 4000+ costing move to try and recover. Two of these Bol and one extended ritual I'm at 11k magic usage. Only to have then hit me again with an incap. Another 11k magic. This doesn't include any other damage the nightblade does. 5k heavy 4K surprise 3-4K viper 5-8 Velidreth 6-9k incap. 23k damage at a cost of 50 ultimate and 3000 stam would take 20k magic to health through. If you increase the cost 20% I have to use 2 more to heal through the damage caused by 5-6k stam.

Take your extra heal back, don't have an issue with that. Incap is too powerful I agree, not because of the damage but because of how many other effects it has with such a cheap cost (yes I get it's single target, that doesn't change my mind it does too much). See my comment a few posts up regarding proc sets. They are a problem and need to/will be fixed but that isn't what this thread is about so if we could stop discussing BoL in a PvP world where proc sets exist in their current state that would be great.

CatchMeTrolling

You realize increasing the cost will just make healers stack more recovery? Lol wouldn't fix anything

Joy_Division

Paraflex wrote: »

Templar Gear/Skills Problem

25% Reactive
25% Malubeth
15% Heavy Armor
10% Healthplar Blazing Shields
15% BOL
10% Other Issues

Stacking all this together is a cancer BOL should get a cost increase but Reactive needs an adjustment as well with other stuff. Fact is Templars need some nerfs

It's not a fact. It's an opinion. Go ahead and nerf BoL for a 3rd consecutive patch and ruin PvE because you seek simple solutions to complex problems.

Ever consider that maybe templars are strong now not because ZoS buffed them - they didn't by the way, pre-IC templar was stronger by a fair bit then with what we are playing with now - rather they just happen to be the best fit as to how Zos has change combat in ESO (heavy armor buff, poison / debuff spam, can heal self while having three of the new powerful full armor set bonuses, fixed vamp mist giving it mobility it could not access befroe, etc).

Blackfyre20

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You realize increasing the cost will just make healers stack more recovery? Lol wouldn't fix anything

You realize that making healers stack more recovery would cause them to sacrifice something else, say maybe tankiness because they have to wear light armor or drop reactive. I see your name isn't CatchMeTrolling for no reason.

Blackfyre20

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's not a fact. It's an opinion. Go ahead and nerf BoL for a 3rd consecutive patch and ruin PvE because you seek simple solutions to complex problems.

Ever consider that maybe templars are strong now not because ZoS buffed them - they didn't by the way, pre-IC templar was stronger by a fair bit then with what we are playing with now - rather they just happen to be the best fit as to how Zos has change combat in ESO (heavy armor buff, poison / debuff spam, can heal self while having three of the new powerful full armor set bonuses, fixed vamp mist giving it mobility it could not access befroe, etc).

Every time someone says what I propose will ruin PvE I die a little inside, it's similar to talking to rocks at this point. Read some other posts in the thread please. To save you the effort, I have said multiple times this would mess with PvE, PvE and PvP can be impossible to balance, and this would be a PvP only adjustment. Which they do with other skills, it isn't impossible.