The Real Problem With Mag vs Stam

thankyourat

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Well, Joy, the very reasonable complaint with shields is that you still have to re-apply them even if you have your stam opponent on the run.
See, it's already difficult to put pressure on a stam player with all that animation-cancelling rolling. Also, your burst is highly telegraphed and therefore easily blocked. And when you finally got the upper hand, you still have to chase them down to avoid LoS healing, and stam is much more mobile. And then you ALSO have to refresh shields so often, since you're dead with zhem down. No impen helps you with that instant 30k burst.
If you add all that, it's easy to see why shield users are struggling. It's not about the actual head-on fight, but when you need to finish the opponent off. What happens to me almost always is that when I overcome my typical stamblade enemy, he's just running around obstacles. I have to shield, streak and dps. My opponent has dodge immunity frames, major expedition, caltrops snare and invisibility. It is too much. Magsorcs can't deal with all of that at once. And if you let the enemy slip, he will come back and burst you down in a second for a cheap kill.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree that a sorcerer that has a stam opponent "on the run" and holds the initiative needs 20K stacked shields.

I feel this way because if templars, DKs, or a NBs, all of which also have difficulty putting pressure on a rolling stam player (more actually, temps and DKs are slow, DKs and NBs lack class skills that defeat dodge), somehow can manage, why can't a sorcerer? And I'm still not exactly sure why sorc in light armor with no shields dead, but not the other three classes in light armor. Is it because the sorc is running around with all divines, no defensive skills, and no health? Serves her right. Being a sorc IMHO does not give a player license to invest everything into damage without consequence. If one class can do that, then the game is busted. See 1.6 magsorcs and stam NBs.

But what do I know? After all, I had the audacity to admit my initial impressions of sorcs post DB were wrong because I didn't just quit on the class and demand ZoS make them stupid OP again.

Note to mDKs: I tried. It takes a better player than me to make them anything more than perma-block PuG magnets.

In open world PvP you most definitely need to keep your shields up even if you have a stamina player on the run because you don't know what's out there. Also everyone's burst is so high you can have a nightblade on the run he can turn around and incap you and you're dead because stamina burst damage is just so high. Add in velidreth and it's gg. It's not just sorcs though it's the same with magblade your shields are down you are a dead man. It's also incredibly difficult to hit people on mag build using a destroy staff because projectiles are slow and telegraphed. It's also to easy to los a ranged builds to many times I'm fighting and a guy will hide behind a tree and he has literally made me ineffective because I can't target him. What's the point of being a ranged build if I always have to be in melee range either because of gap closers or los baiting?

Lord-Otto

Yes, you NEED to go full divines on sorcs. Shields are so expensive, as are all magicka skills, you need that 200 recovery bonus from Atro divines. Just to get even.
You also need 64 points into magicka to have a chance at putting a dent into your opponent with weak-butt staves. All stamina builds are doing it, why does it serve us mag players right to not only have less spell damage than weapon, having to manage two resources to not die and have higher skill cost. And therefore we should also be forced into sacrificing for more health?
I think not.

Izaki

Zurxii wrote: »

Agreed^ It's the fact Stam can stack MUCH more weapon dmg with little to no sustain at all, while mag has to stack more sustain and sacrifice a TON of damage. For example, recently mag sorcs (I'm using mag sorc as example a lot because I main it) have had to stack more sustain due to 6s shields. However Stam doesn't need to sacrifice any damage whatsoever for sustain.

How about you stack max magicka on your sorc? It increases your sustain (cause you're able to cast more skills), gives you more damage and strengthens your shields. Plus magicka builds have access to the best sustain set in the game for PvP: The Lich.

Zurxii wrote: »

lol. It was an exaggeration, but go play a mag class with 1k Regen then go play a Stam class with 1k Regen. HMU with which sustains better. Especially if you're red guard.

Done. I've been playing with under 900 recovery lately and doing just fine. Its just as easy as it is on a stam build if you know what you're doing.

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think stam dominance is a bit overstated. They are potentially stronger and very dangerous in the hands of a sword & shield player who knows what they are doing (seriously, it's way more dangerous than the 2H...no idea why more stam players are sticking with 2H main but whatever), but the issue I mostly have is with the simultaneous proc nonsense. Assuming zoS deals with this, then the problem will largely go away.

No. We would still have the problems of how dodge scales with multiple opponents. How stam builds are more mobile and can cc break more easily. How weapon damage is easier to stack than spell damage and how weaving/animation cancelling is better on melee. How gapclosers prevent ranged combat and how telegraphed magicka burst is.
There was a big disparity before proc sets, and after the removal of them, it will still be there.
=(

Yes. I play magicka and I generally don't have an issue with that stuff. Before the proc sets, I felt I could defeat a stamina player in a fair fight so I don't agree there was a big disparity.

Your a magplar... Magplars are OP even before the new proc sets...

Templar: Alliance rank 35

Sorcerer: Alliance rank 37

DK: Alliance rank: 25

NB: Alliance rank 14.

Try again. Thanks for playing.

As long as you don't do something silly like try and mDK without being a perma block enemy PuG magnet, generally you'll be OK in Cyrodiil until hit by simultaneous procs.

Id love to hear your setup, because magsorc has been a pretty miserable experience since the DB patch.

Sure you can do 'ok' and score a few kills, but you're working a LOT harder and you have to be twice the player than your average stamina sorc to perform at the same level.

Magicka ability costs have to go down across the board significantly. That's what's killing us. Let me pick up two DPS sets and sustain like a Stamina user and we'll be balanced.

Haven't you been using Makkir's and QAM's builds lately? I thought you said you did on a thread I came by. Back in SotH when I asked QAM for advice and after applying all that advice to my build, I've been really enjoying my sorc more than before Thieves Guild.
And don't speak too quickly on the stam builds. It depends on how you're playing your stam build. If you're grabbing every single proc set you can come by, sure it is pretty easy to take out the PvP "trash mobs". If you're playing heavy it really helps with sustain, but if you can't manage ressources in the first place, Black Rose won't save you.

BTW: Try picking 2 DPS sets and playing like that. You'll see that you'll get used to it. Not THAT hard.

Izaki

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think stam dominance is a bit overstated. They are potentially stronger and very dangerous in the hands of a sword & shield player who knows what they are doing (seriously, it's way more dangerous than the 2H...no idea why more stam players are sticking with 2H main but whatever), but the issue I mostly have is with the simultaneous proc nonsense. Assuming zoS deals with this, then the problem will largely go away.

No. We would still have the problems of how dodge scales with multiple opponents. How stam builds are more mobile and can cc break more easily. How weapon damage is easier to stack than spell damage and how weaving/animation cancelling is better on melee. How gapclosers prevent ranged combat and how telegraphed magicka burst is.
There was a big disparity before proc sets, and after the removal of them, it will still be there.
=(

Yes. I play magicka and I generally don't have an issue with that stuff. Before the proc sets, I felt I could defeat a stamina player in a fair fight so I don't agree there was a big disparity.

Your a magplar... Magplars are OP even before the new proc sets...

Templar: Alliance rank 35

Sorcerer: Alliance rank 37

DK: Alliance rank: 25

NB: Alliance rank 14.

Try again. Thanks for playing.

As long as you don't do something silly like try and mDK without being a perma block enemy PuG magnet, generally you'll be OK in Cyrodiil until hit by simultaneous procs.

Id love to hear your setup, because magsorc has been a pretty miserable experience since the DB patch.

Sure you can do 'ok' and score a few kills, but you're working a LOT harder and you have to be twice the player than your average stamina sorc to perform at the same level.

Magicka ability costs have to go down across the board significantly. That's what's killing us. Let me pick up two DPS sets and sustain like a Stamina user and we'll be balanced.

For sorc?

If you get lucky and have a lich resto staff, I would backbar 5 lich and 5 Spinners on front bar. Otherwise 5 Spinners Front bar and extra regen/cost reduction glyph resto back bar. I wear the Infernal Guardian Helm.

You play exactly the same way before the shield nerf. The only big difference is when the NB ganks you, you wont have a shield up. If this bothers you, slot the defensive rune skill. If casting your shield(s) every 6 seconds in combat bothers you, then that means you are not getting hit and have no right to complain IMHO. The change to critical surge helps you. So does unblockable curse.

If it's zergy I just use I run hardened and healing ward. If I am solo, small group, I slot the resto staff ulti (and try not to rely on it because some PuG will steal the heal). Always Eye of the Storm Front bar. Streak & Encase people in Eye. Use Lightning Fury; Front bar. It's that good of a skill. I prefer Inferno staff because of burst and lightning attack just telegraphs your target that they need to defend themselves. But this isn't any secret. It still works just fine. Sorcs always had burst and always had shields. Just because there are new toys doesn't mean this combination is less effective.

Yes procs kill you, but procs kill everyone. Should sorcs be the only class immune to procs or something? I don't have to work a LOT harder. It's still the same thing, except you - like everyone - have to rez more often. I didn;t play my sorc for two months because like yourself I thought the shield and surge changes were huge nerfs. They are not. The shield thing is just an inconvenience.

I also think a lot of sorcs have responded by going too far glass cannon: trying to get 50K magicka, bound armaments, inner light, etc. Unless these sorcs are highly skilled players and experts at their craft, they re going to get Rekt because sorcs still need impen, still need defensive skills, still need stam. I would be most of the "sorcs got overnerfed" calls have come from such players who somehow think that (again) sorcs should by right have the means to be unique flowers in Cyrodiil and not have to worry about getting attacked like other players.

I am definitely a better templar player than sorc so if I can do fine and have fun, I don't see how the people with sorc mains cannot.

I agree with everything you said, except 1 thing: stacking max magicka is the right thing to do. Its glass canon at first look, but at the same time you get 30k of uncrittable shields, so it actually makes you tankier in the end. So going with bound aegis and inner light is the smartest thing you can do on a sorc IF you know what you're doing. Big IF here. IMHO if you play sorc you gotta go big or go home. But that's what is cool about the class. I actually like the fact that not every other person in Cyro is a sorc. What I don't like is the people trashing the class and feeling entitled to buffs. I recently even went back to DW and pushing for even more damage while keeping my sustain with the Lich. And frankly, I have to say that my sorc has never been stronger in every aspect.

I like it how we agree on stuff, as last time we talked, it was a rather long debate LOL. Surge is amazing now. Shield duration are, like you said, an inconvenience at most.

Izaki

Saint_Bud wrote: »

WTB magicka rally and vigor

WTsee a stamina healing ward too?...

Lord-Otto

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Saint_Bud wrote: »

WTB magicka rally and vigor

WTsee a stamina healing ward too?...

Sure, if you wanna slot a useless stick and can live with a 50/50 chance your heal flies off to an ally.

Zurxii

So you just said it yourself. Lich. Stam builds can have a constant 900ish regen as YOU were talking about, and how you also said you sustained with 900 just fine. But having Lich proc doesn't really count as 900 all the time. Yes it's viable to sustain with low Regen on a mag build if you use Lich, but that's an entire 5pc for sustain, whereas Stam can simply run heavy, low Regen, etc, hit just as hard as medium because they can run thief mundus, have all the extra tankiness and sustain, and simply outperform mag as a whole just from heavy. Not even including the proc sets. Ask any decent player and I guarantee they'll all agree, Stam is over the top when compared to mag.

Zurxii

I like when people come into conversations throwing out false ideas in an attempt to make themselves look better at their class. I mean your opinion is great but smh, when you go against facts to make yourself look better..lol

DeHei

i posted a similar Thread in german Forum, but most player dont feel the problem.. 80% of that player just playing stam chars. Most of the magicka player are happy now with the destro ult.. there are just few magicka player who do duells an there have an opinion to that... For example, there are just very few guys, who trying a light armor Templar in Duells anymore.. 90% have the same build and weared heavy armor..

Brutusmax1mus

Lexxypwns wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Zurxii wrote: »

destro ulti ticks for 6k a second any good build can buff vigor rally spam to survive it unless they want to be smart an move the OUT of the aoe incap is instant 12k+ damage that stuns defiles AN makes you hit harder AGAINST said target

My destro ticks for 10k+ crits in pvp and you can do other actions during it, and its aoe.

Is that on soft targets? I found my destro ultimate on ticks for like 5k as well on meta heavy armor builds with full impen. I've seen it crit for 10k before but they are usually vampires wearing little impen. How much magicka do you have

That's on a magplar running 5 soulshine 5 spinners 2 Bloodspawn. 35k mag 3500 spell damage buffed. It turns out when you've got 12k pen everything is a soft target

My mageblade has significantly higher tooltip than magplar too. Add in major breach and Light armor passives and I think I could get 12-14k crits on the regular.

No offense, but you don't get 3500 spell damage with that build. But you do hit hard as hell.

Brutusmax1mus

Proc sets are needed by stam imo. I don't lose to many stam build with out them.

Jsmalls

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Well, Joy, the very reasonable complaint with shields is that you still have to re-apply them even if you have your stam opponent on the run.
See, it's already difficult to put pressure on a stam player with all that animation-cancelling rolling. Also, your burst is highly telegraphed and therefore easily blocked. And when you finally got the upper hand, you still have to chase them down to avoid LoS healing, and stam is much more mobile. And then you ALSO have to refresh shields so often, since you're dead with zhem down. No impen helps you with that instant 30k burst.
If you add all that, it's easy to see why shield users are struggling. It's not about the actual head-on fight, but when you need to finish the opponent off. What happens to me almost always is that when I overcome my typical stamblade enemy, he's just running around obstacles. I have to shield, streak and dps. My opponent has dodge immunity frames, major expedition, caltrops snare and invisibility. It is too much. Magsorcs can't deal with all of that at once. And if you let the enemy slip, he will come back and burst you down in a second for a cheap kill.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree that a sorcerer that has a stam opponent "on the run" and holds the initiative needs 20K stacked shields.

I feel this way because if templars, DKs, or a NBs, all of which also have difficulty putting pressure on a rolling stam player (more actually, temps and DKs are slow, DKs and NBs lack class skills that defeat dodge), somehow can manage, why can't a sorcerer? And I'm still not exactly sure why sorc in light armor with no shields dead, but not the other three classes in light armor. Is it because the sorc is running around with all divines, no defensive skills, and no health? Serves her right. Being a sorc IMHO does not give a player license to invest everything into damage without consequence. If one class can do that, then the game is busted. See 1.6 magsorcs and stam NBs.

But what do I know? After all, I had the audacity to admit my initial impressions of sorcs post DB were wrong because I didn't just quit on the class and demand ZoS make them stupid OP again.

Note to mDKs: I tried. It takes a better player than me to make them anything more than perma-block PuG magnets.

@Joy_Division
I don't doubt you're a good player, but you majorly overlooked the fact that Heavy Armor greatly supplements Templars, mDKs, and mNB play styles. As for Sorcerers slotting heavy armor its rather annoying... And I pick my LA setups over HA anyday...

Okay so a mDK, mTemp, and mNB all have strong healing functions in the game that directly heals your HEALTH bar. BoL, siphoning abilities and passives, and (I don't play mDKs but I know they have that burst heal after x seconds, igneous which gives major vitality etc). Sorcerers have.... Surge. Yeah that 1-2k HoT. Heavy armor buffs your healing recieved which cooperates well with their abilities that keep their Health bar full. Why is this, because heavy armor makes your health bar harder to take down. Sorcerers rely on... Shields not health (I have an entire PvP build that removes burst heals from my Sorc and I entirely depend on shields for survival). So wearing heavy armor on a Sorcerer is the equivalent of wearing Kevlar under a bullet proof vest. Yeah it's awesome that its there when your shields go down... But you're not taking advantage of it the majority of the fight, and your are taking a major sustain hit by wearing it.

I don't disagree with the fact that we are fine in PvP as is. But don't say we think we should be the exception to the rule. We don't have the option to take full advantage of heavy armor like other classes, basically pigeonholed into using LA in fact.

Proc sets need to go though. If I'm allowing an opponent to get an attack in for whatever reason I shouldnt be penalized by having that 1 attack turn into 4 from a proc set.

Joy_Division

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Yes, you NEED to go full divines on sorcs. Shields are so expensive, as are all magicka skills, you need that 200 recovery bonus from Atro divines. Just to get even.
You also need 64 points into magicka to have a chance at putting a dent into your opponent with weak-butt staves. All stamina builds are doing it, why does it serve us mag players right to not only have less spell damage than weapon, having to manage two resources to not die and have higher skill cost. And therefore we should also be forced into sacrificing for more health?
I think not.

All of this I agree and can get behind. Add in the fact that the offensive weapon they want to use heals better than the healing weapon mag builds have to use.

That's something different than walking around with 20K+ perma shield stack.

@IzakiBrotheSs - those builds a precisely why perma shield stacking would be even more busted now than back in 1.6. I do agree those builds are very strong, but they take a very high skill level to play effectively IMHO. See, great minds can think alike occasionally!

@Jsmalls - I wouldnt say I overlooked heavy armor. I said consistently the reason why temps are so strong was not because the class was buffed (it wasn't, pre IC patch noticeably stronger), it was because heavy armor was so good and it was a natural fit. This is an issue with the imbalance between light armor Vs heavy armor though, something aside from sorcerers.

DKs and NBs do not have strong native on-demand healing functions that help their health bar. Only templars do. Which is why there are so many running around in Cyrodiil.

I don't necessarily disagree that sorcerers are a natural fit for LA though, but if the other classes go light armor they are going to face the same dangers; the DK and temp defensive passives are trivial. If the situation is such that wearing light armor is suicide, then that's either a problem with LA or damage or heavy or burst and the solution to that problem should not be "well, let's allow sorcerers to perma-stack 20K shields."

Izaki

Zurxii wrote: »

So you just said it yourself. Lich. Stam builds can have a constant 900ish regen as YOU were talking about, and how you also said you sustained with 900 just fine. But having Lich proc doesn't really count as 900 all the time. Yes it's viable to sustain with low Regen on a mag build if you use Lich, but that's an entire 5pc for sustain, whereas Stam can simply run heavy, low Regen, etc, hit just as hard as medium because they can run thief mundus, have all the extra tankiness and sustain, and simply outperform mag as a whole just from heavy. Not even including the proc sets. Ask any decent player and I guarantee they'll all agree, Stam is over the top when compared to mag.

Zurxii wrote: »

I like when people come into conversations throwing out false ideas in an attempt to make themselves look better at their class. I mean your opinion is great but smh, when you go against facts to make yourself look better..lol

I've played with 900 recovery without the Lich. I'm not the only one either. "Its impossible to play without a sustain set" is not a fact. "Its possible to play with 900 recovery" on the other hand is a fact. So who's going against facts here, mate? Who's trying to "argue against the facts to make himself look better"? I think what is really happening here, is you throwing out false ideas on how stamina out-classes magicka by a mile, to cover up for your lack of performance on your class. Remember I'm not the one complaining about how I can't kill or can't sustain on a magicka build. You are.

What makes you think that Black Rose isn't a sustain set for stamina builds? What makes you think that heavy armor does more damage than medium? It that another one of your "facts" too? So far I haven't seen a single stamina DPS in trials wear heavy armor. Why not? Because medium armor offers more damage. Do you think that going from PvE to PvP magically changes the fact that medium armor gives more raw damage and crit chance than heavy armor? What's the real reason people wear heavy armor? Its not the damage. Its the fact that they can be tanky while dealing great damage with proc sets (which are all medium armor + jewelry BTW). People wear heavy armor to survive the stacked procs.

The-Baconator

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Zurxii wrote: »

So you just said it yourself. Lich. Stam builds can have a constant 900ish regen as YOU were talking about, and how you also said you sustained with 900 just fine. But having Lich proc doesn't really count as 900 all the time. Yes it's viable to sustain with low Regen on a mag build if you use Lich, but that's an entire 5pc for sustain, whereas Stam can simply run heavy, low Regen, etc, hit just as hard as medium because they can run thief mundus, have all the extra tankiness and sustain, and simply outperform mag as a whole just from heavy. Not even including the proc sets. Ask any decent player and I guarantee they'll all agree, Stam is over the top when compared to mag.

Zurxii wrote: »

I like when people come into conversations throwing out false ideas in an attempt to make themselves look better at their class. I mean your opinion is great but smh, when you go against facts to make yourself look better..lol

I've played with 900 recovery without the Lich. I'm not the only one either. "Its impossible to play without a sustain set" is not a fact. "Its possible to play with 900 recovery" on the other hand is a fact. So who's going against facts here, mate? Who's trying to "argue against the facts to make himself look better"? I think what is really happening here, is you throwing out false ideas on how stamina out-classes magicka by a mile, to cover up for your lack of performance on your class. Remember I'm not the one complaining about how I can't kill or can't sustain on a magicka build. You are.

What makes you think that Black Rose isn't a sustain set for stamina builds? What makes you think that heavy armor does more damage than medium? It that another one of your "facts" too? So far I haven't seen a single stamina DPS in trials wear heavy armor. Why not? Because medium armor offers more damage. Do you think that going from PvE to PvP magically changes the fact that medium armor gives more raw damage and crit chance than heavy armor? What's the real reason people wear heavy armor? Its not the damage. Its the fact that they can be tanky while dealing great damage with proc sets (which are all medium armor + jewelry BTW). People wear heavy armor to survive the stacked procs.

For your 900 recov comment, I would love to see you kill anything other than a 200 cp trashcan once you get a magicka resource poison on you. I don't really know what mega server or platform you play on but more and more players on my megaserver are incorporating resource poisons into their open world builds and you will go OOM in no time. Even before considering poisons everyone I know that is worth anything on a sorc has ran a 5pc sustain set on their open world solo\small group build for quite a few patches now, its just necessary if you're in a fight that lasts for longer than 30 seconds.

For magicka sorc in general, it just isn't as strong as a lot of people make it out to be, much like magicka overall. Magicka is crutching on a variety of currently OP skills and sets to stay competitive with stam in solo\small scale environment and once they are justifiably nerfed it will return to magicka templar and all of the stam classes being miles ahead of the other magicka specs for pretty much all small scale PvP.

Minalan

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Yes, you NEED to go full divines on sorcs. Shields are so expensive, as are all magicka skills, you need that 200 recovery bonus from Atro divines. Just to get even.
You also need 64 points into magicka to have a chance at putting a dent into your opponent with weak-butt staves. All stamina builds are doing it, why does it serve us mag players right to not only have less spell damage than weapon, having to manage two resources to not die and have higher skill cost. And therefore we should also be forced into sacrificing for more health?
I think not.

A sorc needs some impen, around 1500-2K is enough. Otherwise you'll get knocked down five seconds into a shield and never get back up. Every single time. Kaboom, 22K of crit burst (viper, veli, surprise attack)

With impen you can get back up with a small bit of health left, and use the stun immunity timer to shield back up, slam your heals, drink a potion and counter attack.

Otherwise, you're literally dead to anyone who can count to five. Wear a regen set or use a resto heavy attack every few seconds and that 100 or so extra recovery is nothing.

Your DPS and regen is zero when you're dead.

Minalan

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Zurxii wrote: »

Agreed^ It's the fact Stam can stack MUCH more weapon dmg with little to no sustain at all, while mag has to stack more sustain and sacrifice a TON of damage. For example, recently mag sorcs (I'm using mag sorc as example a lot because I main it) have had to stack more sustain due to 6s shields. However Stam doesn't need to sacrifice any damage whatsoever for sustain.

How about you stack max magicka on your sorc? It increases your sustain (cause you're able to cast more skills), gives you more damage and strengthens your shields. Plus magicka builds have access to the best sustain set in the game for PvP: The Lich.

Zurxii wrote: »

lol. It was an exaggeration, but go play a mag class with 1k Regen then go play a Stam class with 1k Regen. HMU with which sustains better. Especially if you're red guard.

Done. I've been playing with under 900 recovery lately and doing just fine. Its just as easy as it is on a stam build if you know what you're doing.

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think stam dominance is a bit overstated. They are potentially stronger and very dangerous in the hands of a sword & shield player who knows what they are doing (seriously, it's way more dangerous than the 2H...no idea why more stam players are sticking with 2H main but whatever), but the issue I mostly have is with the simultaneous proc nonsense. Assuming zoS deals with this, then the problem will largely go away.

No. We would still have the problems of how dodge scales with multiple opponents. How stam builds are more mobile and can cc break more easily. How weapon damage is easier to stack than spell damage and how weaving/animation cancelling is better on melee. How gapclosers prevent ranged combat and how telegraphed magicka burst is.
There was a big disparity before proc sets, and after the removal of them, it will still be there.
=(

Yes. I play magicka and I generally don't have an issue with that stuff. Before the proc sets, I felt I could defeat a stamina player in a fair fight so I don't agree there was a big disparity.

Your a magplar... Magplars are OP even before the new proc sets...

Templar: Alliance rank 35

Sorcerer: Alliance rank 37

DK: Alliance rank: 25

NB: Alliance rank 14.

Try again. Thanks for playing.

As long as you don't do something silly like try and mDK without being a perma block enemy PuG magnet, generally you'll be OK in Cyrodiil until hit by simultaneous procs.

Id love to hear your setup, because magsorc has been a pretty miserable experience since the DB patch.

Sure you can do 'ok' and score a few kills, but you're working a LOT harder and you have to be twice the player than your average stamina sorc to perform at the same level.

Magicka ability costs have to go down across the board significantly. That's what's killing us. Let me pick up two DPS sets and sustain like a Stamina user and we'll be balanced.

Haven't you been using Makkir's and QAM's builds lately? I thought you said you did on a thread I came by. Back in SotH when I asked QAM for advice and after applying all that advice to my build, I've been really enjoying my sorc more than before Thieves Guild.
And don't speak too quickly on the stam builds. It depends on how you're playing your stam build. If you're grabbing every single proc set you can come by, sure it is pretty easy to take out the PvP "trash mobs". If you're playing heavy it really helps with sustain, but if you can't manage ressources in the first place, Black Rose won't save you.

BTW: Try picking 2 DPS sets and playing like that. You'll see that you'll get used to it. Not THAT hard.

It's kind of bad. Your health is in one shot gank range (anything less than 24K) and the sustain on it is miserable. There's no 'managing' with 700 regeneration because there's nothing to manage.

At least with lich or warlock every minute you get a really nice infusion. Time the proc with a major intellect magicka pot and you're golden.

Zurxii

Well. Here's my biggest complaint of this patch/meta. I personally think it's the LEAST skill based meta to date, considering ONE heavy attack, can proc x amount of other proc sets. For example, say you're in a duel and the person Heavys, and procs viper, veil, and widowmaker. It's honestly sad how each "incremental" patch seems to simply put the game even worse than before.

Zurxii

I would spend the time to explain why you HAVE to have more than 900 regen on a mag sorc, but Minalan already did. You say I can't perform at my class - I guarantee if you have EVER been in a tournament, or fought top tier players, you'd be out of resources nearly instantly. Especially against the proc set meta, it's gotten even worse. I don't know what console you're on but I can guarantee you that 900 regen is not viable on a mag sorc.

Zurxii

One question for you though. What do you normally do on your sorc? How big of groups do you run with? If the answer is above 8, then never approach me again and stop zerging, were talking about smallscale and dueling. There's 3 POSSIBLE OPTIONS here, 1: you run in ball groups and spam liquid lightning 2: you're a pve'r 3: you don't know what you're talking about and get YEETED by actual duelers

Jsmalls

@Joy_Division

The way I see it BoL>Siphoning (+ healing recieved passives)>mDk burst heal and inhale(+ major vitality)>>>>>Surge.

I think all the classes have much more benefits to running heavy armor than a Sorcerer does. Which forces is into light armor, which gives us no real option to not be instagibbed without a shield up. Then by stacking 7/7 impen we are weakening our build because it's virtually useless outside of getting 1 shot from gankers.

All these other classes have heavy armor and impen actively help then in combat, and to prevent them from getting ganked. Sorcerers using the same only benefit from these in a "small" fraction of open world PvP.

Lord-Otto

Minalan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Yes, you NEED to go full divines on sorcs. Shields are so expensive, as are all magicka skills, you need that 200 recovery bonus from Atro divines. Just to get even.
You also need 64 points into magicka to have a chance at putting a dent into your opponent with weak-butt staves. All stamina builds are doing it, why does it serve us mag players right to not only have less spell damage than weapon, having to manage two resources to not die and have higher skill cost. And therefore we should also be forced into sacrificing for more health?
I think not.

A sorc needs some impen, around 1500-2K is enough. Otherwise you'll get knocked down five seconds into a shield and never get back up. Every single time. Kaboom, 22K of crit burst (viper, veli, surprise attack)

With impen you can get back up with a small bit of health left, and use the stun immunity timer to shield back up, slam your heals, drink a potion and counter attack.

Otherwise, you're literally dead to anyone who can count to five. Wear a regen set or use a resto heavy attack every few seconds and that 100 or so extra recovery is nothing.

Your DPS and regen is zero when you're dead.

I appreciate your advice, brother. Thank you. I have a different stance, still. =P

Firstly, I'm in light armor and refuse to change that. I need the regen and I especially need the bonus from Lich. Otherwise I simply can't sustain long group fights, streaking for repositioning and shielding against multiple attackers. Not even mentioning the needed spell pen bonus, as I don't have Major Breech built into my main dps move.
And in light armor? If I get hit with shields down, no impen is gonna help me. Anyone can rock sharpened weapons and Surprise Attack/Concentration/Erosion and I have 0 damage mitigation. It doesn't matter if you crit for a bit less, that 30k damage still hits and kills me. I rather get a bit more sustain to at least be an asset to my group when I'm still standing and to have a chance at 1v1 vs non-potatoes that can last quite a bit.
I do, however, have 24k health non-emp boon and Undeath passive, kinda emulating impen. Which leads me to the next point.

Even if I survive occasionally with 2% health left, I'm pretty much dead, anyway.
Any dps character can bust a shield with just one swipe of a light attack + dps move. The time it takes me to shield is just as long as it takes a capable attacker to destroy them. Then come the additional procs to bleed through, or I'm simply running out of magicka because shields are important, or I get snared, breeched, etc... Shields are the WORST form of defense when you're under heavy pressure.
Healing Ward? When it doesn't fly off in the distance, it takes so long to heal, that I can easily be executed through it or my opponent simply calls out for an additional arrow from a friend. I personally prefer to refresh shields more often to be on the safe side.
Against a damage character, I'm put immediately on 100% defense once the burst hit me because of that. And everyone competent knows how hard it is on a shielding character to get from defense to offense. Until you've reached that point, IF you reach it, your enemy has Incap back up. Or his buddy came, since you're snared and can't streak away since streak is USELESS and gets you killed while streaking down a hill.

The only way your suggestion would (and does) work is against a tank character who capitalizes on procs. You can survive that proc and won't suffer enough pressure to not get back up. There are many of those proctatoes in Cyro right now, so I guess you're advice is sound on those. But even so, those are trash mobs and you can easily scare them away or achieve a draw because they can't damage you enough and you don't have the resources to finish them. Against those, ironically, that 100 points recovery from divines HELP!

We magicka users shouldn't be forced to even think about putting more resources into defense. We already have less dps and the burst is more easily avoided. We have less sustain thanks to higher cost. We are less mobile. Our dps can be dodged or reflected while the enemy keeps attacking. If we defend, we go 100% defense. Even if we have the upper hand, we must sacrifice offense to refresh our shields.

And you suggest we substract EVEN MORE offensive potential to be put into defense just to survive GEAR PROCS while stamina builds have everything built-in and don't need to worry about that? Yeah, maybe you survive an additional burst from a potato, great! But any player who knows what's up will wipe your butt twice as hard.
Magicka needs some form of buff, simple. At the moment we're crutching on Lich and Eye of the Storm and when that ultimate gets inevitable destroyed by ZOS "balancing", we're back to DB era where 95% of all magicka players, especially sorcs, suddenly switched to stamina.

ScooberSteve

Sure magika cant stack proc sets but the can heal the sh!t out of themselves.

Minalan

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Yes, you NEED to go full divines on sorcs. Shields are so expensive, as are all magicka skills, you need that 200 recovery bonus from Atro divines. Just to get even.
You also need 64 points into magicka to have a chance at putting a dent into your opponent with weak-butt staves. All stamina builds are doing it, why does it serve us mag players right to not only have less spell damage than weapon, having to manage two resources to not die and have higher skill cost. And therefore we should also be forced into sacrificing for more health?
I think not.

A sorc needs some impen, around 1500-2K is enough. Otherwise you'll get knocked down five seconds into a shield and never get back up. Every single time. Kaboom, 22K of crit burst (viper, veli, surprise attack)

With impen you can get back up with a small bit of health left, and use the stun immunity timer to shield back up, slam your heals, drink a potion and counter attack.

Otherwise, you're literally dead to anyone who can count to five. Wear a regen set or use a resto heavy attack every few seconds and that 100 or so extra recovery is nothing.

Your DPS and regen is zero when you're dead.

I appreciate your advice, brother. Thank you. I have a different stance, still. =P

Firstly, I'm in light armor and refuse to change that. I need the regen and I especially need the bonus from Lich. Otherwise I simply can't sustain long group fights, streaking for repositioning and shielding against multiple attackers. Not even mentioning the needed spell pen bonus, as I don't have Major Breech built into my main dps move.
And in light armor? If I get hit with shields down, no impen is gonna help me. Anyone can rock sharpened weapons and Surprise Attack/Concentration/Erosion and I have 0 damage mitigation. It doesn't matter if you crit for a bit less, that 30k damage still hits and kills me. I rather get a bit more sustain to at least be an asset to my group when I'm still standing and to have a chance at 1v1 vs non-potatoes that can last quite a bit.
I do, however, have 24k health non-emp boon and Undeath passive, kinda emulating impen. Which leads me to the next point.

Even if I survive occasionally with 2% health left, I'm pretty much dead, anyway.
Any dps character can bust a shield with just one swipe of a light attack + dps move. The time it takes me to shield is just as long as it takes a capable attacker to destroy them. Then come the additional procs to bleed through, or I'm simply running out of magicka because shields are important, or I get snared, breeched, etc... Shields are the WORST form of defense when you're under heavy pressure.
Healing Ward? When it doesn't fly off in the distance, it takes so long to heal, that I can easily be executed through it or my opponent simply calls out for an additional arrow from a friend. I personally prefer to refresh shields more often to be on the safe side.
Against a damage character, I'm put immediately on 100% defense once the burst hit me because of that. And everyone competent knows how hard it is on a shielding character to get from defense to offense. Until you've reached that point, IF you reach it, your enemy has Incap back up. Or his buddy came, since you're snared and can't streak away since streak is USELESS and gets you killed while streaking down a hill.

The only way your suggestion would (and does) work is against a tank character who capitalizes on procs. You can survive that proc and won't suffer enough pressure to not get back up. There are many of those proctatoes in Cyro right now, so I guess you're advice is sound on those. But even so, those are trash mobs and you can easily scare them away or achieve a draw because they can't damage you enough and you don't have the resources to finish them. Against those, ironically, that 100 points recovery from divines HELP!

We magicka users shouldn't be forced to even think about putting more resources into defense. We already have less dps and the burst is more easily avoided. We have less sustain thanks to higher cost. We are less mobile. Our dps can be dodged or reflected while the enemy keeps attacking. If we defend, we go 100% defense. Even if we have the upper hand, we must sacrifice offense to refresh our shields.

And you suggest we substract EVEN MORE offensive potential to be put into defense just to survive GEAR PROCS while stamina builds have everything built-in and don't need to worry about that? Yeah, maybe you survive an additional burst from a potato, great! But any player who knows what's up will wipe your butt twice as hard.
Magicka needs some form of buff, simple. At the moment we're crutching on Lich and Eye of the Storm and when that ultimate gets inevitable destroyed by ZOS "balancing", we're back to DB era where 95% of all magicka players, especially sorcs, suddenly switched to stamina.

I agree a hundred percent with you here.

Impen helps against magicka user duels as well, and I can survive most single/loner gank attenpts. I can remove roughly 25% of crit damage for 300 magicka that I don't see every three seconds. People with little CP crit for almost nothing.

It takes like 30 seconds of that 100 regen to get like one shield or force pulse. Math sucks for us sorcs, and impen works great even on my 5/1/1 armor. Keep a defending trait resto lich staff and 50% of the time you get knocked down you have full *medium* armor, not light.

I have survived hundreds of situations by the skin of my teeth, but I survived and I would not have without impen. Before I did impen, once I died to two snipe shots. Another time to one DK fire heavy attack. After that I was done with the glass armor and I picked up 1600 impen between my armor and 'resistant' CP.

Cozzy1991

Dont completely agree with you. Damage shields are still huge problem even with the universal 6 seconds. Have youl tried to take out a shield stacker without proc sets? it either takes half an hour, or or you cant kill them. stam users go for the famage stack builds because they need them for the 20k shields.

Zurxii

ScooberSteve wrote: »

Sure magika cant stack proc sets but the can heal the sh!t out of themselves.

Yes, but Stam classes have major mending, vigor, rally. Have you tried to kill a s/b Stam dk whilst they're igneous>Vigor>blocking?

Zurxii

Cozzy1991 wrote: »

Dont completely agree with you. Damage shields are still huge problem even with the universal 6 seconds. Have youl tried to take out a shield stacker without proc sets? it either takes half an hour, or or you cant kill them. stam users go for the famage stack builds because they need them for the 20k shields.

If you time a HA>Dawnbreaker>etc together after counting to 5s for the sorc shields to drop you won't have any problem. Unless they're extremely experienced but you can still kill them.

Lord-Otto

@Mina:
Hm, I can see your reasoning. I can survive ganks from weak players, too. It's when there's two and more or a veteran ganker that I'm struggling. And impen doesn't help. I have lost a few duels with competent players though, because I ran dry of magicka. Could survive the burst, could handle the pressure, but was lacking sustain. I have since upgraded. 300 recovery can decide those close battles, so I rather build around that.
Then again, vampire. It might help in this regard, with that setup.

@Cozzy:
Just keep the pressure up. Shields are strong 1v1, but they force you to go full defense, which will lose you the fight. Mind the stamina drain, too.
I see people still complaining about shields, and yes, they can suck in duels, but they are not balanced for open Cyro PvP with all that line of sight and snares and zergs.

Sheey

Go 3x stamina regen glyphs ohhh wait we build only for weapondamage. So let nerf eye o. Storm

Lokey0024

ScooberSteve wrote: »

Sure magika cant stack proc sets but the can heal the sh!t out of themselves.

Vigor is by far a better heal. Watch anyone with pvp game use it to heal group members or just keep it running because it is basically 2000-3000 health regen. Spamming healing ward is no compairason.