The Stamina meta and Stamplar imbalance

Drdeath20

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

a lot of people complain about stam nightblades but I think stamplar and stam dk are both better at the moment. If they are built right they both just feel unkillable. I can pretty much beat every other class on my magblade but those two. And if they are a redguard it's basically gg before the fight even starts. I don't have these problems going against any other class

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds. Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

Are you actually trying to imply that magicka nightblade is somehow stronger than stamina templar? I don't know what logic you used to formulate that list, but it's a joke. Stamina templar is by far the best overall stamina setup for open-world, it's the most adaptable class for any scenario.

Yes those sap tanks are strong. You should play a stamplar in cyrodil first and then post about them on here.

OdinForge

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

a lot of people complain about stam nightblades but I think stamplar and stam dk are both better at the moment. If they are built right they both just feel unkillable. I can pretty much beat every other class on my magblade but those two. And if they are a redguard it's basically gg before the fight even starts. I don't have these problems going against any other class

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds. Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

Are you actually trying to imply that magicka nightblade is somehow stronger than stamina templar? I don't know what logic you used to formulate that list, but it's a joke. Stamina templar is by far the best overall stamina setup for open-world, it's the most adaptable class for any scenario.

Yes those sap tanks are strong. You should play a stamplar in cyrodil first and then post about them on here.

Sap tank? Idk if you're a bad troll, or actually serious.

You shouldn't make assumptions, I play stamplar and quite successfully.

Drdeath20

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

a lot of people complain about stam nightblades but I think stamplar and stam dk are both better at the moment. If they are built right they both just feel unkillable. I can pretty much beat every other class on my magblade but those two. And if they are a redguard it's basically gg before the fight even starts. I don't have these problems going against any other class

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds. Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

Are you actually trying to imply that magicka nightblade is somehow stronger than stamina templar? I don't know what logic you used to formulate that list, but it's a joke. Stamina templar is by far the best overall stamina setup for open-world, it's the most adaptable class for any scenario.

Yes those sap tanks are strong. You should play a stamplar in cyrodil first and then post about them on here.

Sap tank? Idk if you're a bad troll, or actually serious.

You shouldn't make assumptions, I play stamplar and quite successfully.

Sap tanks are insane. The more opponents the stronger they get. With templars you just need to slot a draining poison. Funny a templar telling a nightblade to slot a potion. Oh the irony.

OdinForge

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

a lot of people complain about stam nightblades but I think stamplar and stam dk are both better at the moment. If they are built right they both just feel unkillable. I can pretty much beat every other class on my magblade but those two. And if they are a redguard it's basically gg before the fight even starts. I don't have these problems going against any other class

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds. Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

Are you actually trying to imply that magicka nightblade is somehow stronger than stamina templar? I don't know what logic you used to formulate that list, but it's a joke. Stamina templar is by far the best overall stamina setup for open-world, it's the most adaptable class for any scenario.

Yes those sap tanks are strong. You should play a stamplar in cyrodil first and then post about them on here.

Sap tank? Idk if you're a bad troll, or actually serious.

You shouldn't make assumptions, I play stamplar and quite successfully.

Sap tanks are insane. The more opponents the stronger they get. With templars you just need to slot a draining poison. Funny a templar telling a nightblade to slot a potion. Oh the irony.

I don't even think you're playing ESO, sap tanks haven't been strong since 2014.

Drdeath20

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

a lot of people complain about stam nightblades but I think stamplar and stam dk are both better at the moment. If they are built right they both just feel unkillable. I can pretty much beat every other class on my magblade but those two. And if they are a redguard it's basically gg before the fight even starts. I don't have these problems going against any other class

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds. Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

Are you actually trying to imply that magicka nightblade is somehow stronger than stamina templar? I don't know what logic you used to formulate that list, but it's a joke. Stamina templar is by far the best overall stamina setup for open-world, it's the most adaptable class for any scenario.

Yes those sap tanks are strong. You should play a stamplar in cyrodil first and then post about them on here.

Sap tank? Idk if you're a bad troll, or actually serious.

You shouldn't make assumptions, I play stamplar and quite successfully.

Sap tanks are insane. The more opponents the stronger they get. With templars you just need to slot a draining poison. Funny a templar telling a nightblade to slot a potion. Oh the irony.

I don't even think you're playing ESO, sap tanks haven't been strong since 2014.

I don't see many of them but the ones I see have 20 guys chasing them ,hitting them non stop, and there's just bodies everywhere.

Drdeath20

Every class has a use in group play, we'll except for Stamplars and Magicka dragon Knights.

People really complaining about Stamplars bcz of Vmsa? Or bcz of organized duels?

Once you group up Stamplars usefulness becomes questionable. You realize that you get better killing and more utility out of every other stamina class.

OdinForge

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Every class has a use in group play, we'll except for Stamplars and Magicka dragon Knights.

People really complaining about Stamplars bcz of Vmsa? Or bcz of organized duels?

Once you group up Stamplars usefulness becomes questionable. You realize that you get better killing and more utility out of every other stamina class.

Now I know you're trolling 100%.

Sandman929

Sap tanks are dead? I'm not exactly a sap "tank", but sap tanky. 30k magicka, 28k health, 7 heavy S&B mag NB with 30k spell resist and 27k phys resist and 3500 buffed spell damage.
I do ok.

Drdeath20

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Every class has a use in group play, we'll except for Stamplars and Magicka dragon Knights.

People really complaining about Stamplars bcz of Vmsa? Or bcz of organized duels?

Once you group up Stamplars usefulness becomes questionable. You realize that you get better killing and more utility out of every other stamina class.

Now I know you're trolling 100%.

How so?

What does a stamplar do better than any other class in a group?
Stam sorcs have negate and good mobility
Stam dragon Knights have reflect and leap
Stamina nightblades have mass hysteria, cloak, Major fracture

Ishammael

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

a lot of people complain about stam nightblades but I think stamplar and stam dk are both better at the moment. If they are built right they both just feel unkillable. I can pretty much beat every other class on my magblade but those two. And if they are a redguard it's basically gg before the fight even starts. I don't have these problems going against any other class

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds. Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

Are you actually trying to imply that magicka nightblade is somehow stronger than stamina templar? I don't know what logic you used to formulate that list, but it's a joke. Stamina templar is by far the best overall stamina setup for open-world, it's the most adaptable class for any scenario.

Yes those sap tanks are strong. You should play a stamplar in cyrodil first and then post about them on here.

Sap tank? Idk if you're a bad troll, or actually serious.

You shouldn't make assumptions, I play stamplar and quite successfully.

Sap tanks are insane. The more opponents the stronger they get. With templars you just need to slot a draining poison. Funny a templar telling a nightblade to slot a potion. Oh the irony.

I don't even think you're playing ESO, sap tanks haven't been strong since 2014.

Seriously. Sap tanks ceased to exist more than a year ago. That guy is trolling.

Drdeath20

Ishammael wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

a lot of people complain about stam nightblades but I think stamplar and stam dk are both better at the moment. If they are built right they both just feel unkillable. I can pretty much beat every other class on my magblade but those two. And if they are a redguard it's basically gg before the fight even starts. I don't have these problems going against any other class

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds. Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

Are you actually trying to imply that magicka nightblade is somehow stronger than stamina templar? I don't know what logic you used to formulate that list, but it's a joke. Stamina templar is by far the best overall stamina setup for open-world, it's the most adaptable class for any scenario.

Yes those sap tanks are strong. You should play a stamplar in cyrodil first and then post about them on here.

Sap tank? Idk if you're a bad troll, or actually serious.

You shouldn't make assumptions, I play stamplar and quite successfully.

Sap tanks are insane. The more opponents the stronger they get. With templars you just need to slot a draining poison. Funny a templar telling a nightblade to slot a potion. Oh the irony.

I don't even think you're playing ESO, sap tanks haven't been strong since 2014.

Seriously. Sap tanks ceased to exist more than a year ago. That guy is trolling.

This is just drivel.

Troll on troller

Thelon

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

kadar

Thelon wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

@Thelon make build power order list, please thank you.

Mine is like...

Stamina DK/Stamina Templar/Magicka Templar
Stamina NB
Magicka Sorc/Stamina Sorc
Magicka DK/Magicka NB

But this is dumb because it's gonna be situational anyway. Magicka DK shoots to near the top in mid-size coordinated group play and Stamina NB loses usefullness as group size goes up, for example.

KenaPKK

@Drdeath20 stamplar is the hardest hitting stam spin to win execute in group due to its crit damage passive, and it comes with repentance and purify synergies and major mending-buffed vigor hots for utility.

Magicka DK is among the highest AoE damage and utility for groups, bringing talons and standard and exhale.

Sap tank is harder to build and play than DK and Templar tanks and magicka sorc shield spam, but @Ishammael and @OdinForge I do have an immensely tanky sap tank build that can stand toe to toe with them for durability -- it just does zero damage ever... Dunno what this "bodies everywhere" bit is on about. Sap mageblades get tanky, but a true sap tank that can sit in a Zerg foregoes all damage for sustain and blocking.

@Drdeath20 Odin, Ish, and I know what we're talking about, man. We've been around the block. Tryna educate here, no offense intended.

Pepper8Jack

There are quite a few layers to this issue, as it goes much deeper than "Stamplars heals are too strong." The current state of stam-based heals is a direct result of the tankiness of magicka builds (due to shields). Healing ward and annulment give magicka builds an insane amount of survivability on their own, and with stam builds lacking that capability, increased healing is the only hope for stam classes.

Beyond that, nerfing vigor or rally would make vMSA a damn nightmare for stam players just starting out in the arena (obviously leaderboarders wont be hindered by it though).

Ishammael

@KenaPKK
I believe you mate about the sap tank, that you can live hard. However, sap tanks of 1.5 and prior were monsters from another planet. Go watch old Mojar Stalker or krim videos on YouTube. There is no comparison to what you used to be able pull.

Minalan

You'll have to pry my main Magicka sorc out of my cold, dead hands before I give him up.

Bolt escape needs a fix:
* Lower the increasing penalty cost so that it has a max that isn't more than 1.5X the original. Gap closers don't do this, why should streak?
* Fix the skill, so that I don't spend three seconds of animation falling to the ground in the middle of a fight because I streaked down a one-inch incline. Gap closers don't do this, why does streak!?
* Increase the range.
* Fix the lag problem where you streak one to two seconds after you start.
* Change ball lightning to block arrows too FFS. I don't use that morph, it needs to be improved.

Hardened Ward needs a fix:
* We should be able to cast it from stealth, because Nullify Magicka does. Why not this? It's supposed to be a defining class skill.
* Since the duration is nerfed, then the cost needs to go down SIGNIFICANTLY to allow more than "all sustain" sorc builds. I'd love to run Kags again.

Debuffs: I'd love one, just one good one. Preferably major fracture. We're light armor users stuck in a heavy armor world with the new armor penetration meta. This would at least level the playing field between us and Stam builds.

I'm not going to ask for a spammable ability, we don't need it.

I'm not going to ask to fix our pathetic passives, though Nightblades get all of the benefits of Bound Aegis as a PASSIVE. We have to slot the thing on every bar.

I'm not going to complain about pet fixes, the skill line should be deleted - they clutter up an already laggy battlefield.

Fix the useful skills we have, and the class would be competitive. Just a few small things to make it more playable, that most people agree need to be fixed anyways.

Van_0S

Stamplars are strong because of the changes to thamaurgture passive in champion points. So, Vigor(dot heal) is the best heal for stamplars.

Edit: As anyone tried non-CP campaign ? If so, are stamplars strong there?

thankyourat

Lol how

Pepper8Jack wrote: »

There are quite a few layers to this issue, as it goes much deeper than "Stamplars heals are too strong." The current state of stam-based heals is a direct result of the tankiness of magicka builds (due to shields). Healing ward and annulment give magicka builds an insane amount of survivability on their own, and with stam builds lacking that capability, increased healing is the only hope for stam classes.

Beyond that, nerfing vigor or rally would make vMSA a damn nightmare for stam players just starting out in the arena (obviously leaderboarders wont be hindered by it though).

Not necessarily stam classes can dodge roll, sprint, have shuffle, and cc break that in itself gives stamina just as much survivability as shields if not more. The healing that get is just extra

Minalan

PS: Nerf Malubeth, leave the stamplars alone.

dodgehopper_ESO

KenaPKK wrote: »

@OdinForge I agree that the removal of soft caps and poor integration of stamina builds into the game are the source of a greater problem, but I still think stamplar has local issues that put it above the other stam classes within that bigger picture.

You pointed out that they can operate with next to no sustain even against good players. It is entirely too convenient that they don't need potions and can run vitality pots without worrying about resources, often in a full damage spec. They can't be heal debuffed or pressured with dots. They have major mending. They have jabs... Where exactly is a 2h/bow stamplar's weakness? Vitality pots probably aren't the crix of the issue, but I would be fine with their sustain and offensive strengths if they didn't shrug off damage with ritual and heal buffs. To me, I'd rather see major mending and vitality go and let them keep the damage and sustain.

I'd like everyone to step back a moment and recognize that other classes get unique features which set them apart from Templar as well, and offer tricks which are unique to them currently. Cloak for instance is highly useful and while I will concede there are certainly ways to break cloak, one could also offer a good volley of the right attacks can quickly remove the effects of a cleansing. Cloak also at the very least is supposed to negate the operating DoT's upon its caster while active, the fact it does not is another issue altogether. Six of one, half a dozen of another. The other classes likewise have some unique elements. Sorcerer is namely meant to be a great hit and run class. The general nerfing of bolt escape/streak have harmed this to some extent, but no one can argue that Sorcerer is the most mobile class, with nightblade as a very close second. The point I'm making here is the fixation upon cleansing is fine, but needs to recognize the fact that this is part of the core style of the Templar and as such should not be forgotten in much the same way Cloak is considered a core uniqueness.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Staplers are for sure at the top for now. A lot of it is skill. But there is 1 or 2 builds floating around that are wicked and given most of these players are using them they are indeed extremely strong. Dudes running over 4k weapon damage, damn near or over 3k stamina recovery, plus their ability to heal is pretty overpowered at the moment. Every class has had its moment at the top. Temps have needed it for awhile lol.

Waffennacht

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Staplers are for sure at the top for now. A lot of it is skill. But there is 1 or 2 builds floating around that are wicked and given most of these players are using them they are indeed extremely strong. Dudes running over 4k weapon damage, damn near or over 3k stamina recovery, plus their ability to heal is pretty overpowered at the moment. Every class has had its moment at the top. Temps have needed it for awhile lol.

I do agree with this. I remember when Templars were a laughing stock (along with magicka dk). Finally their moves are no longer bugged.

The ability to stack such huge healing percent bonuses is a huge factor in their success. An ability to have over 100% healing is incredible. Malubeth is a factor in this.

I'm not for any changes to Templars, potions, or CPs. Malubeth should be fixed, not nerfed imo. I like the idea of seeing insane tanks, but also wanna see insane gankers, and duelers, and would love to see viable pet builds (quite the fantasy lol) running around, with archers and sorcerers etc.

Oh and I would welcome any sorcerer buffz

The-Baconator

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Drdeath20 stamplar is the hardest hitting stam spin to win execute in group due to its crit damage passive, and it comes with repentance and purify synergies and major mending-buffed vigor hots for utility.

Magicka DK is among the highest AoE damage and utility for groups, bringing talons and standard and exhale.

Sap tank is harder to build and play than DK and Templar tanks and magicka sorc shield spam, but @Ishammael and @OdinForge I do have an immensely tanky sap tank build that can stand toe to toe with them for durability -- it just does zero damage ever... Dunno what this "bodies everywhere" bit is on about. Sap mageblades get tanky, but a true sap tank that can sit in a Zerg foregoes all damage for sustain and blocking.

@Drdeath20 Odin, Ish, and I know what we're talking about, man. We've been around the block. Tryna educate here, no offense intended.

Agree that stamplar is ridiculously strong atm for small scale but its hardly the best spec when you get to 7-8 and beyond. Stam sorc simply blows every other class and spec out of the water as it brings negate to the table along with a spammable that isn't absolutely terrible (impulse is just ew). Magicka Dk also excels in good small\medium 4-8 mans but once you start get closer to a dozen or more it just looks lackluster when compared to a stamina build with a spammable root that does significantly more damage from range.

twistedmonk

The root cause of most of this is the Champion system and the removal of softcaps.

It's not that interesting a game when you can create a build that excels at damage, healing, sustain, mobility and crowd control. There is nothing to compromise, you can do it all.

Brrrofski

Ishammael wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

a lot of people complain about stam nightblades but I think stamplar and stam dk are both better at the moment. If they are built right they both just feel unkillable. I can pretty much beat every other class on my magblade but those two. And if they are a redguard it's basically gg before the fight even starts. I don't have these problems going against any other class

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds. Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

Are you actually trying to imply that magicka nightblade is somehow stronger than stamina templar? I don't know what logic you used to formulate that list, but it's a joke. Stamina templar is by far the best overall stamina setup for open-world, it's the most adaptable class for any scenario.

Yes those sap tanks are strong. You should play a stamplar in cyrodil first and then post about them on here.

Sap tank? Idk if you're a bad troll, or actually serious.

You shouldn't make assumptions, I play stamplar and quite successfully.

Sap tanks are insane. The more opponents the stronger they get. With templars you just need to slot a draining poison. Funny a templar telling a nightblade to slot a potion. Oh the irony.

I don't even think you're playing ESO, sap tanks haven't been strong since 2014.

Seriously. Sap tanks ceased to exist more than a year ago. That guy is trolling.

I dunno man, I manage to play really well with it.

So many perma blocks builds that they think I'm another one. They don't notice their health gradually dropping untill it's too late.

KenaPKK

@Ishammael I've seen some of those videos. Shame I missed those days. Sap tank was godlike!

Derra

I personally think major mending should be as accessible as major berserk. Which is something only one class can access at all by themself with the prerequisite of killing something AND it´s duration is very limited.

Also magica builds need a reliable way to access major defile which in theory is major vitalitiys counter but can not be found for magica builds as a spamable skill.

You might get me point: I don´t think any class should be able to selfbuff major mending or vitality on them because the equivalent dmg buffs are either not selfbuffable or nonexistant for mag builds.

Ishammael

Derra wrote: »

I personally think major mending should be as accessible as major berserk. Which is something only one class can access at all by themself with the prerequisite of killing something AND it´s duration is very limited.

Also magica builds need a reliable way to access major defile which in theory is major vitalitiys counter but can not be found for magica builds as a spamable skill.

You might get me point: I don´t think any class should be able to selfbuff major mending or vitality on them because the equivalent dmg buffs are either not selfbuffable or nonexistant for mag builds.

The problem is that because of the limited action bar in ESO, skills do too many things at once. For example, purify gives you 5xpurge, major mending, a HoT, and a snare. That's crazy.

I think access to major mending like on igneous shield is OK because it doesn't last that long and the skill doesn't do much else.

GreenSoup2HoT

The-Baconator wrote: »

Agree that stamplar is ridiculously strong atm for small scale but its hardly the best spec when you get to 7-8 and beyond. Stam sorc simply blows every other class and spec out of the water as it brings negate to the table along with a spammable that isn't absolutely terrible (impulse is just ew). Magicka Dk also excels in good small\medium 4-8 mans but once you start get closer to a dozen or more it just looks lackluster when compared to a stamina build with a spammable root that does significantly more damage from range.

Soon, Bombard will not be as effective as it used to be. Keep breaches infested with Caltrops with make Bombard useless.. until someone Negates the Caltrops thus giving Bombard an opportunity to Immobilize players who are no longer snared. All though you won't be able to chain immobilize with Bombard like you could with Talons or Encase since Bombard applies it's own snare. It's range and damage will still be good but the Immobilize will be a lot less frequent, players will still be perma-snared though..

I agree Stamina Sorc takes first place in large scale scenarios by a long shot. Hurricane/Implosion, Streak with Negate is very valuable. No other stamina class has an ultimate as impactful as Negate. DBoS or Leap is not bad but does not provide enough presence compared to Negate (when fighting 10+). I'd love to see some ground based AoE ultimate's scale off of your highest stat (Standard/Veil of Blades/Nova) , then at least some other stamina classes would have a bigger impact in large scale combat.

Here's the PTS change coming to Bombard if you haven't seen it already.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

FIXES & IMPROVEMENTS, BASE GAME PATCH [PTS 2.5.4]
Combat & Gameplay
Weapon

• Bow
  • Bombard (Arrow Spray morph): This morph no longer applies its immobilize effect to targets that are already snared.