The Stamina meta and Stamplar imbalance

kadar

I actually think that the Stamina Classes are balanced fairly well right now. On my Stamina NB I have the most trouble killing skilled Stamplars and DKs, then other Stamblades, then Stamina Sorcs. But not by a huge margin. The OP is kind of about Stamplars, and kind of about a host of other things.

Personally I'd much rather see Magicka Sorcs buffed a smidge than Stamina Templars nerfed, even though I think they are very strong right now. If Magicka Sorcs have such issues taking down Stamina Templars, imagine how Dragonknights feel?

I overheard a casual conversation between a Stamina Templar and a DK the other day during a heated duel--"All of you're damage and pressure is based around DoTs? That's cool, but while I have magicka, I'm immune to all DoT damage. " And yes, the trollface was audible from a distance of 10 meters.

dodgehopper_ESO

The_Outsider wrote: »

I actually think that the Stamina Classes are balanced fairly well right now. On my Stamina NB I have the most trouble killing skilled Stamplars and DKs, then other Stamblades, then Stamina Sorcs. But not by a huge margin. The OP is kind of about Stamplars, and kind of about a host of other things.

Personally I'd much rather see Magicka Sorcs buffed a smidge than Stamina Templars nerfed, even though I think they are very strong right now. If Magicka Sorcs have such issues taking down Stamina Templars, imagine how Dragonknights feel?

I overheard a casual conversation between a Stamina Templar and a DK the other day during a heated duel--"All of you're damage and pressure is based around DoTs? That's cool, but while I have magicka, I'm immune to all DoT damage. " And yes, the trollface was audible from a distance of 10 meters.

To be fair, a good DK-v-Templar battle goes on for days. I agree with your assessment though, I'd rather see Sorcs nudged in the right direction.

kadar

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

I actually think that the Stamina Classes are balanced fairly well right now. On my Stamina NB I have the most trouble killing skilled Stamplars and DKs, then other Stamblades, then Stamina Sorcs. But not by a huge margin. The OP is kind of about Stamplars, and kind of about a host of other things.

Personally I'd much rather see Magicka Sorcs buffed a smidge than Stamina Templars nerfed, even though I think they are very strong right now. If Magicka Sorcs have such issues taking down Stamina Templars, imagine how Dragonknights feel?

I overheard a casual conversation between a Stamina Templar and a DK the other day during a heated duel--"All of you're damage and pressure is based around DoTs? That's cool, but while I have magicka, I'm immune to all DoT damage. " And yes, the trollface was audible from a distance of 10 meters.

To be fair, a good DK-v-Templar battle goes on for days. I agree with your assessment though, I'd rather see Sorcs nudged in the right direction.

True. Dem heals, tho. To kill a really good DK/Templar with my Stamblade (I mostly run DB over Incap), I have to literally bait them into over-committing to killing me. But even then, the good ones don't fall for it. xD

thankyourat

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

And how do you think stamina users felt the past year and a half when magicka was the go to builds ? Seriously magic users please shut up already.

Well the only magicka class that's been op in the past year and a half was magicka sorc. I'm confused about which other magicka classes was the go to build, it couldn't have been nightblade cause magicka NB had never been as good as stamina nightblade. Lol and I know it couldn't have been magicka dk the was to go to over stam dk lol. Templar maybe it was kind of close. The only thing that has been op for magicka was proxy det, stamina has always had better healing, and better mobility, and magicka had always been weak to CCs and snares. So when you say magicka had always been the go to I'm a little confused. Also a lot of us magic users have stamina characters as well. Even though my main is magicked nightblade, I have a stamblade, and stam dk as well, and this is the farthest my magblade had been from the other two classes in the last year.

Izaki

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

And how do you think stamina users felt the past year and a half when magicka was the go to builds ? Seriously magic users please shut up already.

Dude thats just not fair. Just because stam builds got [snip] over in the past, it doesn't mean that as an act of revenge magicka has to go six feet deep. Which is kinda what you're implying. Please stop, and be constructive/understanding. If you know how it feels to be the underdog class, then you should have sympathy for those who feel like that currently.

I'm not saying magicka sorcs are an underdog class (magicka DKs are), nor am I saying that stamina is hands down better than magicka. Just instead of leaving a hateful response either don't comment or express your view on the problem differently. If you think somethings fine or not fine provide some kind of an example to prove your point. Otherwise its gonna be hard to talk like normal people.

Just to clear up once more, I'm not saying that magicka is miles behind stamina, I'm not saying that all magicka classes are bad, I just don't appreciate the way you reply. Seriously, if you comment don't be aggressive, its only a game remember ?

Izaki

twistedmonk wrote: »

they should un-nerf the magic sorc to be a counter to the current stamina meta.

they nerfed shields, surge and bolt escape. all 3 of the combined nerfs made it difficult to play now.

vigor + rally + medium armor + dodge roll + shuffle + gap closers + all the CC/snares = stamina meta the clear choice. 1 dodge roll can negate 10 people hitting you. the shield you have to constantly recast every 6 seconds (which means you are doing 0 dps every 6 seconds) and if you get 2 or more hitting you, you are dead.

Sorry I don't agree with you. They buffed Annulment and its morphs. If you want to shield stack you can do so better than before. Surge is AMAZING for PvE where you use a lot of DoTs and both magicka and stam sorcs benefit from it hugely. You want to get a full heal with 1 Overload ? Use Degeneration (yeah the other morph of Entropy). Shields had to be refreshed all the time anyway, I don't see the difference in PvP at all when 1vXs or Duelling or in any other form of small scale. It was always like that you had to use shields all the time, a couple of wrecking blows and shields would be gone, and thats less than 6 seconds. Believe me I know what magicka sorc is and how to play one. I main one. And let me tell you, now you actually have to use that mobility that ONLY sorcerers have access to. Thus I do agree that Bolt Escape is really too much of a nerf, but shields and surge are perfectly fine. What sorcerers lack are buffs and debuffs even as simple as Major Breach, not surge and shields.

If you have ten people hitting you as a mag build you can roll dodge too. As a sorc you can streak to stun ALL those 10 players if they are close to each other. Think about it, sorcs aren't dead. They are still pretty powerful.

One class should not be a counter to the whole current meta. Never, thats the perfect example of game breaking.

On the other hand stamina is easier to play and to build properly. They are less unforgiving that magicka builds.I agree that they aren't balanced.

Brrrofski

Ishammael wrote: »

There should never have been a Stamina vs. magicka divide in this game. It doesn't make any sense - the 1.6 patch which tried to do this was a huge mistake. Balance will never be achieved when there are only three resource pools.

Regardless, we have what we have. To the OP, the strength of samplar is three fold:

1. Biting jabs is the best Stamina attack in the whole game.
2. Purify gives you major mending, a HoT, and purge.
3. Shuffle+vigor+rally is slightly too strong, mainly because weapon damage can be stacked so high.

Bonus: stam gear sets dramatically outclass magicka gear sets. Magicka classes must slot a staff to gain access to added burst from heavy or light attack weaving.

How is jabs better than suprise attack for pvp? Weaving surface attack is insane damage. A lot of stamplars even opt for dizzying swing as there main dps. I do crazy damage with suprise attack weaves in pvp.

Shuffle, rally and vigor is a stam wide issue.

Like I said, all stamina is strong now. I don'tthink stamplars are OP though.

KenaPKK

The mechanics that pushed stamplar over the edge are vitality potions stacking with major mending combined with the new dawnbreaker of smiting. Looking back at recent patches, it is these mechanics which changed as stamplar grew so much in strength. Also, these mechanics benefited all stamina classes, but stamplar utilizes them the best because of its purify. That purify has been around a lot longer though.

Stamplar healing overall is what's so nuts since you can't debuff them or apply dots. In my opinion, vitality potions are where our analysis should start.

Drdeath20

thankyourat wrote: »

a lot of people complain about stam nightblades but I think stamplar and stam dk are both better at the moment. If they are built right they both just feel unkillable. I can pretty much beat every other class on my magblade but those two. And if they are a redguard it's basically gg before the fight even starts. I don't have these problems going against any other class

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds. Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

Xeven

Ishammael wrote: »

Shuffle+vigor+rally is slightly too strong, mainly because weapon damage can be stacked so high.

Let's be real here. Vigor + Rally are far, far too strong. With battle spirit, easily gotten 18k resists, and Elemental Defender, your HoTs will will outpace the DPS of 99% of the players.

This is before dodge roll, shuffle, block, and tree hugging have even been added into the equation.

Xeven

Makkir wrote: »

I feel as a Magicka Sorc I no longer have any defining purpose in Cyrodiil. And the class, as I have mentioned a million times since DB went live, is just not fun to play anymore.

@Makkir

This. There is only one "viable" set up. Destro Resto. Which means, crushy shock weve curse frag shield.

Crushy shock weve curse frag shield.
Crushy shock weve curse frag shield..
Crushy shock weve curse frag shield...
Crushy shock weve curse frag shield....
Crushy shock weve curse frag shield.....




















Crushy shock weve curse frag shield!



The class is so boring to play now. It's been nerfed into the ground, and striped of any useful abilities it actually had.

thankyourat

Drdeath20 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

a lot of people complain about stam nightblades but I think stamplar and stam dk are both better at the moment. If they are built right they both just feel unkillable. I can pretty much beat every other class on my magblade but those two. And if they are a redguard it's basically gg before the fight even starts. I don't have these problems going against any other class

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds. Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

I think Templar is better than stamina sorc but not as good as stamina dk. I would put them
Stam dk
Stamblade/stamplar
Stam sorc
Mag sorc
Magplar/magblade
Mag dk
Major mending will keep stam sorc and stamblade from being the best stam class. Healing is just a lot stronger than burst damage at the moment. it doesn't matter how much damage you do if your opponent can just heal back up to full. I still think mag sorc is better than the other magicka classes they have better burst, and better mobility than the rest. Shield stacking is still really strong. I don't know what would put stam sorc as number 1 or even above stamplar?

arkansas_ESO

It's no secret stamina's top dog this patch, you'd be better off rerolling to avoid pulling your hair out (who wants to play a gimped spec?) or just walking away from the game entirely until/if they rebalance the game.

Xeven

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's no secret stamina's top dog this patch, you'd be better off rerolling to avoid pulling your hair out (who wants to play a gimped spec?) or just walking away from the game entirely until/if they rebalance the game.

I will never, ever reroll. I am a *** sorcerer. I'll play it gimped, or I wont play at all.

Drdeath20

Stamplars pros

A great shield in resoting focus
A cheap purge that snares
Repentance is a good skill to slot for passives. but generally theres not enough bodies to help you when you really need it in cyrodil

Stamplars have 2 offensive abilities and both are underwhelming.

Jabs hits harder than most skills but is easily dodge able and lacks anything to make it special considering its still a channel. I'd rather go dizzying swing bcz it's instant and it has a knockdown.

Binding javelin is expensive, gives cc immunity and pushes your opponent away from you.

Stamplars have no ultimates, no mobility, no utility skills.

Xeven

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Stamplars have no ultimates, no mobility, no utility skills.

Lol what? Dawnbreaker. Rapids + Sprint. Purge.

thankyourat

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Stamplars pros

A great shield in resoting focus
A cheap purge that snares
Repentance is a good skill to slot for passives. but generally theres not enough bodies to help you when you really need it in cyrodil

Stamplars have 2 offensive abilities and both are underwhelming.

Jabs hits harder than most skills but is easily dodge able and lacks anything to make it special considering its still a channel. I'd rather go dizzying swing bcz it's instant and it has a knockdown.

Binding javelin is expensive, gives cc immunity and pushes your opponent away from you.

Stamplars have no ultimates, no mobility, no utility skills.

That's true I think what makes stamplar really good is that everything that the class is missing it can get from somewhere else dawn breaker for the ultimate, bow passives, shuffle and even rapids could work for movement speed, and yes while it lacks some group utility it's self utility is really good with the ability to remove 5 negative effects

Brrrofski

Xeven wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Stamplars have no ultimates, no mobility, no utility skills.

Lol what? Dawnbreaker. Rapids + Sprint. Purge.

That's every stam build. They all have dawnbreaker and the same mobility options.

Drdeath20

Xeven wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Stamplars have no ultimates, no mobility, no utility skills.

Lol what? Dawnbreaker. Rapids + Sprint. Purge.

Yeah everyone has access to that. That's not specific to templars. That does not make Stamplars any more viable than any other class.

We have purifying ritual which has is a good utility skill. Still no ultimates or mobility and nothing that makes them special.

OdinForge

Drdeath20 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

a lot of people complain about stam nightblades but I think stamplar and stam dk are both better at the moment. If they are built right they both just feel unkillable. I can pretty much beat every other class on my magblade but those two. And if they are a redguard it's basically gg before the fight even starts. I don't have these problems going against any other class

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds. Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

Are you actually trying to imply that magicka nightblade is somehow stronger than stamina templar? I don't know what logic you used to formulate that list, but it's a joke. Stamina templar is by far the best overall stamina setup for open-world, it's the most adaptable class for any scenario.

KenaPKK wrote: »

The mechanics that pushed stamplar over the edge are vitality potions stacking with major mending combined with the new dawnbreaker of smiting. Looking back at recent patches, it is these mechanics which changed as stamplar grew so much in strength. Also, these mechanics benefited all stamina classes, but stamplar utilizes them the best because of its purify. That purify has been around a lot longer though.

Stamplar healing overall is what's so nuts since you can't debuff them or apply dots. In my opinion, vitality potions are where our analysis should start.

The problem with stamina templar directly has nothing to do with vitality pots. Really vitality pots stacking with mending is another oversight on ZOS' part, and isn't unique to templar as a class. There are other greater problems to templar that I'm fully aware of now that I'm playing the class. Really the biggest problems come down to the removal of softcaps, and ZOS' inability to balance the game post cap removal.

I used to think that stamina nightblade was well balanced and designed (speaking here pre DB buffs). The class has great utility and passives, allowing you great flexability and build diversity. Even with siphoning attacks, I couldn't reliably run stamina regen lower than 2K against good players. The biggest weakness to running food on a nightblade (versus drink) is the cost of his magicka utility skills, sometimes mitigated by tri-pots if you used them.

Templar is on the other side of the fence, while I could argue that nightblade has greater build diversity, templar doesn't need that. I can run VMSA, Vet Dungeons, PvP and farm in IC without modifying my gear or build period, or modifying in very minimal ways. What templar can do, it does overly well.

With stamplar I have run my stamina regen as low as 500-700 versus noobs, or 1300 if I want to be more comfortable versus good players. I don't have to worry about my magicka pool, I don't need drink or tri-pots. My magicka utility costs are so low 1K-3K, that I never run out of magicka even when pressured heavily. Crescent sweep > soul harvest pre DB patch buff, and stamina templar probably shined its best between 1.7 and 1.9.

I think the best thing about stamina templar has always been its utility, mix that with the great buffs you can access through them. But really the class should be redesigned, they tried to shoehorn stamina builds into a game designed around magicka. I think the entire game should be redesigned for better balance between builds and classes, but that won't happen.

Xeven

The only classes that can complain about mobility are MagDK and MagPlar.

Just to clarify... I don't believe Stamplar is any better or worse than any other StamX.

Stamina overall has been buffed through the roof.

KenaPKK

@Drdeath20 then you would be outright wrong.

Makkir

Xeven wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's no secret stamina's top dog this patch, you'd be better off rerolling to avoid pulling your hair out (who wants to play a gimped spec?) or just walking away from the game entirely until/if they rebalance the game.

I will never, ever reroll. I am a *** sorcerer. I'll play it gimped, or I wont play at all.

Through thick n thin baby. I am with you. I have a PvE grindplar that I use for trophy grinding in the sewers but other than that it's sorc or gtfo. It's honestly like taking a vacation playing on the ez mode magplar though.

It's a chore to play a sorc now but I welcome the challenge. I just want some defining role that no one else is better at performing. Shield stacking doesn't count.

Makkir

Xeven wrote: »

The only classes that can complain about mobility is MagDK and MagPlar.

Just to clarify... I don't believe Stamplar is any better or worse than any other StamX.

Stamina overall has been buffed through the roof.

Um I will also complain about mobility. Sure I can stack elusive mist or boundless storm/purge and some other abilities to enhance my mobility, but at the expense of what? We are pigeon holed into running X number of skills and not leaving a lot of flex spots. I don't even call Bolt Escape mobility anymore. I have a video of me bolting away and all you see a crit charge right behind me the entire time. The only time it works as an escape mechanic is when you use def rune in conjunction.

arkansas_ESO

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Stamplars pros

A great shield in resoting focus
A cheap purge that snares
Repentance is a good skill to slot for passives. but generally theres not enough bodies to help you when you really need it in cyrodil

Stamplars have 2 offensive abilities and both are underwhelming.

Jabs hits harder than most skills but is easily dodge able and lacks anything to make it special considering its still a channel. I'd rather go dizzying swing bcz it's instant and it has a knockdown.

Binding javelin is expensive, gives cc immunity and pushes your opponent away from you.

Stamplars have no ultimates, no mobility, no utility skills.

I think you're a few patches behind the rest of us. Every stamina class gets Dawnbreaker now, a dirt cheap ultimate that stuns, goes through roll dodge, does 20% extra damage to werewolves and vampires, stuns, and increases your weapon damage by 3% just for slotting it. Mobility for all stam builds comes from the bow passive Hasty Retreat, stamplars included. As for utilty, you've got a purge and you've got a skill that boosts your magic regen and boosts your resists. You also get 6% weapon damage and 4% reduced magic, stamina, and ultimate costs from Templar passives. The only thing stamplar is missing is a way to convert magic to stamina like DK's Helping Hands passive or Sorcerer's Dark Deal, but that's an intended weakness of the class.

dodgehopper_ESO

Xeven wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's no secret stamina's top dog this patch, you'd be better off rerolling to avoid pulling your hair out (who wants to play a gimped spec?) or just walking away from the game entirely until/if they rebalance the game.

I will never, ever reroll. I am a *** sorcerer. I'll play it gimped, or I wont play at all.

If you enjoy your character why get rid of it? Many of us are not one-character players though. I never gave up on my Templar though, and managed to play him an awful lot. In fact I've managed to level every single morph on that character and I've played him in every possible role I can think of (heal, tank, stam dps, mag dps). Clearly he was better at certain roles than others, but I've played the hell out of Templar. Stick with your build. I've got confidence that while it may take them a while to get things right, the game will eventually come to a good equilibrium, and you can still have fun in the interim. I do recommend trying other classes though, they're all fun in their own way. I personally like the style of Sorcerer, but I don't particularly like the toggle-focus of the class itself, and honestly I think the Stamina version is more fun to play. I'd rather play a Nightblade or Templar magic build right now, but that's just personal feelings.

Ishammael

Brrrofski wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

There should never have been a Stamina vs. magicka divide in this game. It doesn't make any sense - the 1.6 patch which tried to do this was a huge mistake. Balance will never be achieved when there are only three resource pools.

Regardless, we have what we have. To the OP, the strength of samplar is three fold:

1. Biting jabs is the best Stamina attack in the whole game.
2. Purify gives you major mending, a HoT, and purge.
3. Shuffle+vigor+rally is slightly too strong, mainly because weapon damage can be stacked so high.

Bonus: stam gear sets dramatically outclass magicka gear sets. Magicka classes must slot a staff to gain access to added burst from heavy or light attack weaving.

How is jabs better than suprise attack for pvp? Weaving surface attack is insane damage. A lot of stamplars even opt for dizzying swing as there main dps. I do crazy damage with suprise attack weaves in pvp.

Shuffle, rally and vigor is a stam wide issue.

Like I said, all stamina is strong now. I don'tthink stamplars are OP though.

You're right, surprise attack is great. Biting jabs gets the proc for bonus dmg, and you get to weave with surprise. They are both great.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Stamplars have no ultimates, no mobility, no utility skills.

Lol what? Dawnbreaker. Rapids + Sprint. Purge.

Yeah everyone has access to that. That's not specific to templars. That does not make Stamplars any more viable than any other class.

We have purifying ritual which has is a good utility skill. Still no ultimates or mobility and nothing that makes them special.

Purifying ritual makes them special. It is viable to run on a stam build where Purge is not.

Xeven wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Shuffle+vigor+rally is slightly too strong, mainly because weapon damage can be stacked so high.

Let's be real here. Vigor + Rally are far, far too strong. With battle spirit, easily gotten 18k resists, and Elemental Defender, your HoTs will will outpace the DPS of 99% of the players.

This is before dodge roll, shuffle, block, and tree hugging have even been added into the equation.

I'll cede the point that in the current meta these are too strong. As another poster suggested, soft caps or something similar would help.

KenaPKK

@OdinForge I agree that the removal of soft caps and poor integration of stamina builds into the game are the source of a greater problem, but I still think stamplar has local issues that put it above the other stam classes within that bigger picture.

You pointed out that they can operate with next to no sustain even against good players. It is entirely too convenient that they don't need potions and can run vitality pots without worrying about resources, often in a full damage spec. They can't be heal debuffed or pressured with dots. They have major mending. They have jabs... Where exactly is a 2h/bow stamplar's weakness? Vitality pots probably aren't the crix of the issue, but I would be fine with their sustain and offensive strengths if they didn't shrug off damage with ritual and heal buffs. To me, I'd rather see major mending and vitality go and let them keep the damage and sustain.

Solariken

Drdeath20 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

a lot of people complain about stam nightblades but I think stamplar and stam dk are both better at the moment. If they are built right they both just feel unkillable. I can pretty much beat every other class on my magblade but those two. And if they are a redguard it's basically gg before the fight even starts. I don't have these problems going against any other class

Stamplars are the weakest of all of the stamina builds. Right now the order to builds IMO is

Stamina sorc
Stamina dragon knight
Stamina nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stamina templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

That's exactly how I rank classes this patch (overall, without considering malubeth trollplars and other outlier builds).

Toc de Malsvi

KenaPKK wrote: »

The mechanics that pushed stamplar over the edge are vitality potions stacking with major mending combined with the new dawnbreaker of smiting. Looking back at recent patches, it is these mechanics which changed as stamplar grew so much in strength. Also, these mechanics benefited all stamina classes, but stamplar utilizes them the best because of its purify. That purify has been around a lot longer though.

Stamplar healing overall is what's so nuts since you can't debuff them or apply dots. In my opinion, vitality potions are where our analysis should start.

I agree, Vitality pots are massive and it is not limited to just stamina Templar's. I've run into my fair share of stamina NB's in the open using vitality pots as they virtually instantly heal up to full health with every tick of vigor. The whole of the alchemy changes in DB seem massively out of balance. The only thing keeping more players from using Poisons and Vitality pots is the lack of players with both alchemy maxed and the material income to sustain use of a perishable product.

If you pair both poisons and vitality pots you are virtually unkillable 1v1 outside of facing someone else with them. I have experimented with using ravage magicka+stamina poisons and found I was beating everyone I faced and I had to work less at it. Very quickly within 10s or so they would have to go defensive for lack of resources and I could simply keep spamming light attack+Venom Arrow. Add vitality potions to an already sturdy stamina heal package and it ridiculous.

It's not just that you get Major Vitality, you get it for 30+ seconds. If I want to use Major Mending on a DK I have to expend 1/3 of my magicka pool to get a 7 second buff. Vitality pots mean as long as I have materials to make them I can simply pop a pot every now and then.