Dueling Etiquette

KenaPKK

Look at it the other way too. Hardcore dueling guilds aim to be crucibles of self-improvement. If the other guy LoSes or flees, then how can he get better? The rule is in place for his sake as much as it is for yours. No-rules duels are casual. You can practice chasing pugs in open world.

Sandman929

Why are there always modifiers? "Hardcore" "Real" dueling guilds? Do you need egotistical separation from the unwashed masses so badly?
People can fight how they like. My opponents can play how they like. Like I said, I prefer dueling in a way that most closely matches an unplanned PvP encounter, if you don't that's fine. There's no need to imply that your preference is somehow more "elite" just because you and the players you consider super-awesome at videogaming agree with it.
My opponents improvement is on them. I'm happy to talk and offer suggestions, but I'm not going to say being good at LoS is a lesser skill and if they want to work on it in a duel they're free to do so. While they do that, I'll work on countering LoS. If they want to pull adds into a fight, great! I'll work on that. These are the things I'll encounter in regular world fights and I'd rather be able to deal with them then just crying "NO FAIR!"

Skitttles

The real question is what about open world encounter turned 1v1? What are the rules then? I've gotten many rage tells "nice LoS" or "keep roll dodging," when that same guy opens the from stealth with a poison and I essentially start the fight with 50% health. How about when a group runs toward you but only one of them engages you? Do you play like you're about to get zerged down or "fairly?"

Skitttles

Kena is right though, dueling is like training for open world. Learning in a controlled environment will help you in open world.

Sandman929

Skitttles wrote: »

Kena is right though, dueling is like training for open world. Learning in a controlled environment will help you in open world.

As will dueling in the way that you'll be fighting in the open world. I'm not saying duels with artificially imposed restrictions have no value, but IMO they have less value than practicing without those rules. In the open world you will have to deal with someone running around every rock they can find, and you will have to deal with over performing sets...you'll have to deal with adds in a fight, poisons, fall damage hazards, etc.

The less you remove real world issues the more effective the training for adapting to real world issues IMO. I don't accept the implication that the "real" dueling guilds with artificial exclusions are better training for fights where those exclusions don't exist.

Takes-No-Prisoner

There is no time limit.

Pictured above. Street Fighter has 99 seconds as their limit.

But this is the reason why I don't duel. Community driven rules are always so touch and go. Look at Smash Brothers 4 rule-set. You're going to have to draft something up similar to even start making it look like a 'fair duel'. Even then you'll get questions as to whether or not its truly fair play.

Ahzek

Sandman929 wrote: »

Skitttles wrote: »

Kena is right though, dueling is like training for open world. Learning in a controlled environment will help you in open world.

As will dueling in the way that you'll be fighting in the open world. I'm not saying duels with artificially imposed restrictions have no value, but IMO they have less value than practicing without those rules. In the open world you will have to deal with someone running around every rock they can find, and you will have to deal with over performing sets...you'll have to deal with adds in a fight, poisons, fall damage hazards, etc.

The less you remove real world issues the more effective the training for adapting to real world issues IMO. I don't accept the implication that the "real" dueling guilds with artificial exclusions are better training for fights where those exclusions don't exist.

The idea behind those restrictions ( in the context of learning) is to create a very specific controlled environment under which you can focus on improving your own performance step by step. Of course open world fights are way more erratic, but thats not what (most) duels try to emulate.
Instead by providing an even playing field worse players can learn to improve without becomming overwhelemed by the different factors open world fighting brings, they can focus their attention on specific things.
For example managing your stamina in an open field is much more challenging than in an area filled with LoS objects that allow you to recover. For fighting uneven fights in open world you should definetly learn to make use of the environment, but when you duel you are (usually) not aiming to improve those specific skills , but instead directly on the control of your character.


Also as soon as you allow LoS in a duel between experienced players you have a stalemate, since both of these players will know how to make use of these untargetable moments to recover without any geniune effort.

Sandman929

Ahzek wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Skitttles wrote: »

Kena is right though, dueling is like training for open world. Learning in a controlled environment will help you in open world.

As will dueling in the way that you'll be fighting in the open world. I'm not saying duels with artificially imposed restrictions have no value, but IMO they have less value than practicing without those rules. In the open world you will have to deal with someone running around every rock they can find, and you will have to deal with over performing sets...you'll have to deal with adds in a fight, poisons, fall damage hazards, etc.

The less you remove real world issues the more effective the training for adapting to real world issues IMO. I don't accept the implication that the "real" dueling guilds with artificial exclusions are better training for fights where those exclusions don't exist.

The idea behind those restrictions ( in the context of learning) is to create a very specific controlled environment under which you can focus on improving your own performance step by step. Of course open world fights are way more erratic, but thats not what (most) duels try to emulate.
Instead by providing an even playing field worse players can learn to improve without becomming overwhelemed by the different factors open world fighting brings, they can focus their attention on specific things.
For example managing your stamina in an open field is much more challenging than in an area filled with LoS objects that allow you to recover. For fighting uneven fights in open world you should definetly learn to make use of the environment, but when you duel you are (usually) not aiming to improve those specific skills , but instead directly on the control of your character.


Also as soon as you allow LoS in a duel between experienced players you have a stalemate, since both of these players will know how to make use of these untargetable moments to recover without any geniune effort.

Well, that real world fight is what I try to emulate. Inexperienced players can't learn to make use of their environment in a numbers controlled duel if they're banned from doing so.

Waffennacht

I duel because I love fighting especially in a 1v1 setting.

I'll fight by any rules just so I can get some 1v1.

I use to run tcg tournaments and have been a mid level judge in a few too. What I would suggest is a rotation of what rules are being used.

Then, just to be cool, I would have a rotation of locations along with LoS rules. I know I would have a LoS limit, as it's been pointed out, two players LoSing could result in a never ending match. Something like the first player to LoS 3 times forfeits the match.

Same with armors etc... that way players can use their earned armor in a good environment. And allowing players to also experience combat without being forced to use certain sets.

Sandman929

Waffennacht wrote: »

I duel because I love fighting especially in a 1v1 setting.

I'll fight by any rules just so I can get some 1v1.

I use to run tcg tournaments and have been a mid level judge in a few too. What I would suggest is a rotation of what rules are being used.

Then, just to be cool, I would have a rotation of locations along with LoS rules. I know I would have a LoS limit, as it's been pointed out, two players LoSing could result in a never ending match. Something like the first player to LoS 3 times forfeits the match.

Same with armors etc... that way players can use their earned armor in a good environment. And allowing players to also experience combat without being forced to use certain sets.

I'm fine with abiding by whatever rules as well, but I don't find some of them particularly effective at training for real world encounters. What 2 players would let a fight last forever? I certainly wouldn't dance forever and if I have to be the one chasing around a tree, so be it, or I'll just go out of range in the open and they can come play whenever they're ready. I would hope that 2 experienced players wouldn't let a duel come to that, and if you're doing it because you'll die without it, it's not going to save you.

Durete

My personal duelling rules:

Everything and all is allowed.
Poisons/Los/Tactical retreats/Kiting/ultimate, it's all part of the game.
Either adapt or die.

That's the best way to learn the game

Thelon

lol

KenaPKK

I mix locations up as much as convenience allows for a change in scenery, but flat open space is crucial. Open space because LoS is a no-go in Mighty -- didn't think that would ever be a surprise -- and flat because many gap closers don't work uphill.

Minalan

Why are there so many trolls that try to ruin or break up dueling pits?

Yesterday we had three different people wander in and try to jump in a duel or a spectator, with a dozen people freaking watching.

Why would someone do that? Either join in, watch, or go away.

Sandman929

Minalan wrote: »

Why are there so many trolls that try to ruin or break up dueling pits?

Yesterday we had three different people wander in and try to jump in a duel or a spectator, with a dozen people freaking watching.

Why would someone do that? Either join in, watch, or go away.

I think location is everything...well, at least some things. I've seen some people set up duels right next to a keep on the front lines. Like right on the road to a keep that was already under siege with an enemy camp within sight of the keep. That's just not going to go well.

Sandman929

It's always better to fill pockets with soul gems and go where no one could possibly have reason to go, and even then you'll probably get a few show up because they saw the battle marker.

KenaPKK

I love when people interrupt. Free AP, spices up the monotony, and trolling the gankers is a bonding experience for the guild. That said, it is definitely important to pick a somewhat out of the way location.

Strider_Roshin

KenaPKK wrote: »

I love when people interrupt. Free AP, spices up the monotony, and trolling the gankers is a bonding experience for the guild. That said, it is definitely important to pick a somewhat out of the way location.

Gotta love having all three alliances come together to tea bag lol

KenaPKK

It's a beautiful thing.

sluice

@speeez has a great video explaining Dueling Etiquette.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWEzDkZs3JY

Sandman929

sluice wrote: »

@speeez has a great video explaining Dueling Etiquette.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWEzDkZs3JY

I've been initiating wrong, but I'm solid on all the rest.

Cinbri

Stoped reading on paragraph 6.
Malubeth in 1v1... no wonder game in such terrible shape, when community support such retardness.

Sandman929

Cinbri wrote: »

Stoped reading on paragraph 6.
Malubeth in 1v1... no wonder game in such terrible shape, when community support such retardness.

Seriously? Is there a comment in this entire thread that's really capable of causing reading exhaustion?

Strider_Roshin

sluice wrote: »

@speeez has a great video explaining Dueling Etiquette.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWEzDkZs3JY

I've never heard so much truth in one video lol

sluice

Overall these are all good tips. Thanks for sharing @Strider_Roshin!

8. Changing your champion points, and/or your loadout in order to beat a particular opponent is not an actual victory since it’s not an accurate representation of a chance encounter in the middle of Cyrodiil. (i.e. putting Piercing Mark on your bar when you normally wouldn’t, or putting all your points into Elemental Defender when fighting a magicka player).

The reason why I like to duel is to improve my open world game, therefore I try to keep my build "as is" as much as possible. Except, since I burn my ultimate pre duel, for my StamSorc, I need to switch Hurricane from my 3rd to second bar.

On my nightblade, I also put Piercing Mark instead of Shadowy Disguise. If I intend to duel, I don't intend to cloak.

But these are overall changes I do from open world to duel setting, NOT to beat an actual opponent's build.

4. You can start a duel any way you prefer in party chat; however, against someone you can’t communicate with the duel is initiated by jumping twice.

This can be so confusing when you don't know who you are dueling.
Sometime you will see people that jump only once, other 3 times, etc...
I personally always do 3 jumps, unless we agree'd on something else.


The line of sight should be discourage in duel as well, no doubt.
It's somewhat of a problem, as you might of noticed agaisn't me @Strider_Roshin . It's really anchored into my mind! Especially on my stam sorc since this build is all about mobility : Dodge roll, streak, LoS...
I have to force myself not run behind something when dueling.. Well especially if there is a tree right beside me.

Best to find adequate location to duel: no rocks, trees, etc.

Skitttles wrote: »

The real question is what about open world encounter turned 1v1? What are the rules then? I've gotten many rage tells "nice LoS" or "keep roll dodging," when that same guy opens the from stealth with a poison and I essentially start the fight with 50% health. How about when a group runs toward you but only one of them engages you? Do you play like you're about to get zerged down or "fairly?"

It really depends, is it an actual improvised duel? I mean did both party agree'd to fight (buff following by jumping x times?)
Otherwise, in general, there are no rules in open world, so LoS is definitely permitted.

The ones sending rage message are usually the dirtiest player. Better not to waste time with them.

Strider_Roshin

sluice wrote: »

Overall these are all good tips. Thanks for sharing @Strider_Roshin!

8. Changing your champion points, and/or your loadout in order to beat a particular opponent is not an actual victory since it’s not an accurate representation of a chance encounter in the middle of Cyrodiil. (i.e. putting Piercing Mark on your bar when you normally wouldn’t, or putting all your points into Elemental Defender when fighting a magicka player).

The reason why I like to duel is to improve my open world game, therefore I try to keep my build "as is" as much as possible. Except, since I burn my ultimate pre duel, for my StamSorc, I need to switch Hurricane from my 3rd to second bar.

On my nightblade, I also put Piercing Mark instead of Shadowy Disguise. If I intend to duel, I don't intend to cloak.

But these are overall changes I do from open world to duel setting, NOT to beat an actual opponent's build.

4. You can start a duel any way you prefer in party chat; however, against someone you can’t communicate with the duel is initiated by jumping twice.

This can be so confusing when you don't know who you are dueling.
Sometime you will see people that jump only once, other 3 times, etc...
I personally always do 3 jumps, unless we agree'd on something else.


The line of sight should be discourage in duel as well, no doubt.
It's somewhat of a problem, as you might of noticed agaisn't me @Strider_Roshin . It's really anchored into my mind! Especially on my stam sorc since this build is all about mobility : Dodge roll, streak, LoS...
I have to force myself not run behind something when dueling.. Well especially if there is a tree right beside me.

Best to find adequate location to duel: no rocks, trees, etc.

Skitttles wrote: »

The real question is what about open world encounter turned 1v1? What are the rules then? I've gotten many rage tells "nice LoS" or "keep roll dodging," when that same guy opens the from stealth with a poison and I essentially start the fight with 50% health. How about when a group runs toward you but only one of them engages you? Do you play like you're about to get zerged down or "fairly?"

It really depends, is it an actual improvised duel? I mean did both party agree'd to fight (buff following by jumping x times?)
Otherwise, in general, there are no rules in open world, so LoS is definitely permitted.

The ones sending rage message are usually the dirtiest player. Better not to waste time with them.

Hey thanks for commenting Sluice :-)

Btw since I've swapped out rune cage for shuffle, and remorphed rapid strikes to Bloodthirst (I think that's what it's called), and removed my bolt escape to streak, I wouldn't mind testing it on you again :-)

sluice

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

sluice wrote: »

Overall these are all good tips. Thanks for sharing @Strider_Roshin!

8. Changing your champion points, and/or your loadout in order to beat a particular opponent is not an actual victory since it’s not an accurate representation of a chance encounter in the middle of Cyrodiil. (i.e. putting Piercing Mark on your bar when you normally wouldn’t, or putting all your points into Elemental Defender when fighting a magicka player).

The reason why I like to duel is to improve my open world game, therefore I try to keep my build "as is" as much as possible. Except, since I burn my ultimate pre duel, for my StamSorc, I need to switch Hurricane from my 3rd to second bar.

On my nightblade, I also put Piercing Mark instead of Shadowy Disguise. If I intend to duel, I don't intend to cloak.

But these are overall changes I do from open world to duel setting, NOT to beat an actual opponent's build.

4. You can start a duel any way you prefer in party chat; however, against someone you can’t communicate with the duel is initiated by jumping twice.

This can be so confusing when you don't know who you are dueling.
Sometime you will see people that jump only once, other 3 times, etc...
I personally always do 3 jumps, unless we agree'd on something else.


The line of sight should be discourage in duel as well, no doubt.
It's somewhat of a problem, as you might of noticed agaisn't me @Strider_Roshin . It's really anchored into my mind! Especially on my stam sorc since this build is all about mobility : Dodge roll, streak, LoS...
I have to force myself not run behind something when dueling.. Well especially if there is a tree right beside me.

Best to find adequate location to duel: no rocks, trees, etc.

Skitttles wrote: »

The real question is what about open world encounter turned 1v1? What are the rules then? I've gotten many rage tells "nice LoS" or "keep roll dodging," when that same guy opens the from stealth with a poison and I essentially start the fight with 50% health. How about when a group runs toward you but only one of them engages you? Do you play like you're about to get zerged down or "fairly?"

It really depends, is it an actual improvised duel? I mean did both party agree'd to fight (buff following by jumping x times?)
Otherwise, in general, there are no rules in open world, so LoS is definitely permitted.

The ones sending rage message are usually the dirtiest player. Better not to waste time with them.

Hey thanks for commenting Sluice :-)

Btw since I've swapped out rune cage for shuffle, and remorphed rapid strikes to Bloodthirst (I think that's what it's called), and removed my bolt escape to streak, I wouldn't mind testing it on you again :-)

For sure! I have added 2 more Impen pieces as well since the last time we've met! So, I would like to test this too!

Vangy

Sorc wanted to duel me;
I said Okay;
Block jump jump;

We faced off in the vast open plains of cyro (lore breaking yes but that's not the crux of the issue);
He knew I was an SnB/2h DK;
So he plonked mines down and sat in them;
I looked at him and held block with wings;
We faced off each other for 2 mins;
then walked our own ways;
He would not come out of mines;
and im not stupid enough to go in

GG

lynog85

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Dueling Etiquette
This is for scheduled 1v1s, anything outside of this is fair game.
1. Combatants must start the match with no Ultimate.
2. Buffs may be applied before fight but not debuffs or combat related attacks (i.e. Daedric Mines, Proxy Det, Caltrops, Ritual of Retribution, Trap Beast, Path of Darkness, etc.)
3. Poisons are allowed. ZOS buffed enchants in order for them to be competitive with poisons. To say you can’t use poisons in a duel is the same as saying you can’t use enchants.
4. You can start a duel any way you prefer in party chat; however, against someone you can’t communicate with the duel is initiated by jumping twice.
5. Any type of potion is allowed (This includes Immovable).
6. Any type of gear is allowed (i.e. Malubeth, Shield Breaker, etc.).
7. Any type of ability is allowed (i.e. Reverberating Bash, Cloak, Reflective Scales, etc.).
8. Changing your champion points, and/or your loadout in order to beat a particular opponent is not an actual victory since it’s not an accurate representation of a chance encounter in the middle of Cyrodiil. (i.e. putting Piercing Mark on your bar when you normally wouldn’t, or putting all your points into Elemental Defender when fighting a magicka player).
9. In order to initiate a duel with someone you can't communicate with, use bash on them (Power Bash doesn't count).


I decided to share this since these are the rules my guild and I use, and there seems to be inconsistencies with encounters in Cyrodiil. Of course if you want to alter a rule you may do so as long as it’s properly communicated (i.e. not using potions, ultimates, etc.)

Poisons are not allowed and neither are immovable or detection pots.

Vangy

lynog85 wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Dueling Etiquette
This is for scheduled 1v1s, anything outside of this is fair game.
1. Combatants must start the match with no Ultimate.
2. Buffs may be applied before fight but not debuffs or combat related attacks (i.e. Daedric Mines, Proxy Det, Caltrops, Ritual of Retribution, Trap Beast, Path of Darkness, etc.)
3. Poisons are allowed. ZOS buffed enchants in order for them to be competitive with poisons. To say you can’t use poisons in a duel is the same as saying you can’t use enchants.
4. You can start a duel any way you prefer in party chat; however, against someone you can’t communicate with the duel is initiated by jumping twice.
5. Any type of potion is allowed (This includes Immovable).
6. Any type of gear is allowed (i.e. Malubeth, Shield Breaker, etc.).
7. Any type of ability is allowed (i.e. Reverberating Bash, Cloak, Reflective Scales, etc.).
8. Changing your champion points, and/or your loadout in order to beat a particular opponent is not an actual victory since it’s not an accurate representation of a chance encounter in the middle of Cyrodiil. (i.e. putting Piercing Mark on your bar when you normally wouldn’t, or putting all your points into Elemental Defender when fighting a magicka player).
9. In order to initiate a duel with someone you can't communicate with, use bash on them (Power Bash doesn't count).


I decided to share this since these are the rules my guild and I use, and there seems to be inconsistencies with encounters in Cyrodiil. Of course if you want to alter a rule you may do so as long as it’s properly communicated (i.e. not using potions, ultimates, etc.)

Poisons are not allowed and neither are immovable or detection pots.

Those are the rules used in HIS guild. Its just guidelines for those who want a sample of duelling rules. Your guild/personal preference may be different but that dosent mean they arent allowed. Just means you dont allow them in your duels. Ensure everyone adheres to the same set of rules when u duel.