Dueling Etiquette

Strider_Roshin

Dueling Etiquette
This is for scheduled 1v1s, anything outside of this is fair game.
1. Combatants must start the match with no Ultimate.
2. Buffs may be applied before fight but not debuffs or combat related attacks (i.e. Daedric Mines, Proxy Det, Caltrops, Ritual of Retribution, Trap Beast, Path of Darkness, etc.)
3. Poisons are allowed. ZOS buffed enchants in order for them to be competitive with poisons. To say you can’t use poisons in a duel is the same as saying you can’t use enchants.
4. You can start a duel any way you prefer in party chat; however, against someone you can’t communicate with the duel is initiated by jumping twice.
5. Any type of potion is allowed (This includes Immovable).
6. Any type of gear is allowed (i.e. Malubeth, Shield Breaker, etc.).
7. Any type of ability is allowed (i.e. Reverberating Bash, Cloak, Reflective Scales, etc.).
8. Changing your champion points, and/or your loadout in order to beat a particular opponent is not an actual victory since it’s not an accurate representation of a chance encounter in the middle of Cyrodiil. (i.e. putting Piercing Mark on your bar when you normally wouldn’t, or putting all your points into Elemental Defender when fighting a magicka player).
9. In order to initiate a duel with someone you can't communicate with, use bash on them (Power Bash doesn't count).


I decided to share this since these are the rules my guild and I use, and there seems to be inconsistencies with encounters in Cyrodiil. Of course if you want to alter a rule you may do so as long as it’s properly communicated (i.e. not using potions, ultimates, etc.)

Sandman929

#1 is tough...how exactly do I reset my ultimate pool to exactly 0? Go burn it before every match? Even then I'll probably not be at exactly zero if it accumulates at all during this process.

Sandman929

If I change my slotted ultimate is the accumulation zeroed?

Sandman929

I like all the others though, it's best to play in a duel how you would normally play, skills and setup-wise otherwise you're adapting to the opponent on the fly which you can't do in the field.

I'd add "To request a duel, block and bash 1 or 2 times. Don't shoot them with your little bow or use poison injection"

Strider_Roshin

Sandman929 wrote: »

If I change my slotted ultimate is the accumulation zeroed?

What me and my mates do is light attack to build it up, and then burn it if it doesn't require a target (you can cast dawnbreaker at nothing). If your ultimate does require a target then you just take turns holding block, and casting it on your opponent. If there's no way of communicating this to your opponent, I typically just start the duel, and hold on to my ultimate for a bit in order to give my opponent the opportunity to build theirs that way I don't start my match with a Dawnbreaker. It's not the end of the world if you have a few points of ultimate on you so long as you're not able to cast it in the next hit or so.

Waffennacht

These are what i've encountered except the ult, it's where ever you have it.

I didn't know jump twice (thought it was once)

Though imo, buffs should be applied during combat, not before. It's very rare you have all buffs up while roaming cyrodiil

Sandman929

Waffennacht wrote: »

These are what i've encountered except the ult, it's where ever you have it.

I didn't know jump twice (thought it was once)

Though imo, buffs should be applied during combat, not before. It's very rare you have all buffs up while roaming cyrodiil

That's a fair point, but it might be a hard standard to change. In well organized duels with communication this would be the better way to go.

Sandman929

As for jumping, I just keep jumping til they jump once.

Thelon

you should ban shield breaker and malubeth as other guilds / tourneys have done

Thelon

you also failed to mention the use of Line of Sight in a duel.

While I agree changing CP based on your opponent is pure cheese, changing skills based on your matchup is common practice

Sandman929

Thelon wrote: »

you should ban shield breaker and malubeth as other guilds / tourneys have done

But that does nothing to prepare people for the fact that they'll encounter it in the field.

Strider_Roshin

Sandman929 wrote: »

I like all the others though, it's best to play in a duel how you would normally play, skills and setup-wise otherwise you're adapting to the opponent on the fly which you can't do in the field.

I'd add "To request a duel, block and bash 1 or 2 times. Don't shoot them with your little bow or use poison injection"

Not a bad idea, I'll add that when I get home.

Sandman929

Thelon wrote: »

you also failed to mention the use of Line of Sight in a duel.

While I agree changing CP based on your opponent is pure cheese, changing skills based on your matchup is common practice

Changing skills because something you thought was working well isn't working well makes sense. Changing your bars to a way that you wouldn't ordinarily run doesn't make any sense to me. But I duel to learn what my build can do, and is doing, in normal PvP. If I have utilities like Retreating Maneuvers slotted I leave them slotted because that's the way I'll normally be playing.

Strider_Roshin

Thelon wrote: »

you should ban shield breaker and malubeth as other guilds / tourneys have done

If it's what your build uses normally then you'll be handicapping yourself for your opponent's sake. I think Malubeth is ridiculously OP (Velidreth is probably going to be OP as well next update), however it's still in the game, and people are going to use it, therefore it's an accurate depiction on what you'll encounter in Cyrodiil.

Sandman929

I'd rather my only reaction to Malubeth isn't muttering to myself about cheapness. If someone runs it normally, run it in a duel so I can try to adapt.

Thelon

Sandman929 wrote: »

Thelon wrote: »

you should ban shield breaker and malubeth as other guilds / tourneys have done

But that does nothing to prepare people for the fact that they'll encounter it in the field.

@Sandman929

In the field you can use Line of Sight on a shield breaker. However, line of sight is banned in all duels. Malubeth is just broken and would be banned by any self-respecting dueling Guild

Waffennacht

I didn't know people change moves @thelon my build remains constant.

I come from a mtg background, and outside of a sideboard you go a whole tourney with the same deck. That's how approach ESO.

Not saying anything is right or wrong, just my opinion.

Yeah, not gonna change the buff thing, just always thought that lol

Banning things wouldn't make sense, imo if a duel build can't 1v1 in open world, well then...

Strider_Roshin

Waffennacht wrote: »

These are what i've encountered except the ult, it's where ever you have it.

I didn't know jump twice (thought it was once)

Though imo, buffs should be applied during combat, not before. It's very rare you have all buffs up while roaming cyrodiil

This is true, and it's something you can discuss with your opponent, but most people are going to buff beforehand, and a lot of people are buffed during a siege, and can buff before being in gap close range. If you're having a dueling tournament, the alliance that owns the campaign should only be allowed to buff after the fight stats; whereas everyone else can buff beforehand in order to help equalize things. I would like to emphasize that moves such as caltrops and mines aren't buffs, and anyone that's casts either has just initiated the fight prematurely.

Sandman929

Thelon wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Thelon wrote: »

you should ban shield breaker and malubeth as other guilds / tourneys have done

But that does nothing to prepare people for the fact that they'll encounter it in the field.

@Sandman929

In the field you can use Line of Sight on a shield breaker. However, line of sight is banned in all duels. Malubeth is just broken and would be banned by any self-respecting dueling Guild

Banning what you'll encounter in a regular fight doesn't make you better at regular fights, it makes you better in controlled experiments. I'd never heard of banning LoS.

Sandman929

Admittedly, I'm fairly new to the dueling guild scene. But if the self-respecting ones are preparing for fights how they never naturally occur, I'm happy to be in a self-disrespecting one. People aren't going to respect the "no running" rules in the open.

Thelon

Sandman929 wrote: »

I'd never heard of banning LoS.

@Sandman929

That's because you've never been a member of a real dueling Guild

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Thelon wrote: »

you should ban shield breaker and malubeth as other guilds / tourneys have done

If it's what your build uses normally then you'll be handicapping yourself for your opponent's sake. I think Malubeth is ridiculously OP (Velidreth is probably going to be OP as well next update), however it's still in the game, and people are going to use it, therefore it's an accurate depiction on what you'll encounter in Cyrodiil.

Good dueling Guilds recognise that a controlled, 1v1 environment is not the same as running open world Cyrodiil. Your community will thank you if you foster an environment that bans obvious cheese / broken nonsense that can be mitigated in open-world PvP but not in a 1v1

KenaPKK

Looks like a decent start, but this list will create contention in your guild. I offer you a list of warnings from my experience as an officer and acting GM in NA's primary dueling guilds guoing back to last fall.

First, if your guild grows, then you'll end up with a great variety of members, play styles, and opinions regarding game balance. Embrace this. If you take one thing from what I have to say, let it be that your job as GM or officer is to facilitate community growth and activity, not to be "right" or "the best." The goal of your rules is to minimize conflict among members with as few restrictions as possible, NOT to enforce your opinions about duels.

Second, duels are not open world encounters. While some players will use open world builds and not change a thing for duels, others will create dedicated dueling builds. These players may have an ideological disagreement. Just emphasize that they choose who they fight in casual duels. Also, be ready for someone to die in open world and complain that so-and-so didn't follow the dueling rules. Without your guild's signal from both players or an agreement in chat, it's not a formal duel, and there are no rules. Period. Make sure people understand that ahead of time.

By that same logic, you cannot easily detect, confirm, or enforce against changing CP or gear or skills between fights. While changing your CP especially to directly counter another person is kind of a scumbag move, creating a rule outright banning it will just create fights and blame and excuses in chat. Institute an unwritten discouragement of such changes, but don't create such a hard rule. It will only create tension. Remember, people choose who they fight. If you think someone's changing CP, then either suck it up and fight them anyway, change yours too, or just don't fight them.

Line of sight is the only thing you can and should outright ban in general dueling, and it is the norm to ban it. Experienced players will expect this, and it's an easily understood rule to onboard new duelers into your rules. LoS is useful in open world outnumbered encounters, but it's not necessary in a 1v1. The first time you see a fight get extended because some dude who was getting rekt starts tree-humping, you'll understand.

Banning item sets, abilities, or other mechanics which are bugged or op in 1v1s can be defensible, but it can start unnecessary controversy. My advice is to make a short list of mechanics which distort 1v1 balance, discourage their use, and require full disclosure when they are used. Tell members that they don't have to play against op stuff if they don't want to, but do acknowledge that there are op mechanics out there.

For example, regardless of your opinion on banning item sets, Malubeth is bugged, and the big heal ticks that it gives can save players when they should die. It narrows the skill gap between players by saving people from being punished when they make mistakes or get outplayed. Immov pots have the same effect since we have a resource gated combat system built around running people out of stamina with cc chains.

Think of it like the 2h axe bleed bug from a while back. Some people used it, some people didn't, everyone acknowledged it, and we all got along fine since we all knew it was broken. If we'd started banning it, we'd have had unnecessary guild drama and people leaving.

Note that this is for casual guild duel gatherings. Tournaments outright ban overtuned or bugged mechanics.

Lastly, you're mistaken about poisons. Weapon enchantment damage values were buffed to compensate for Transmutation buffs, heavy armor buffs, prismatics being made available to the masses, and buffs to impenetrable. Everyone became MUCH tankier over the last couple of patches, and Gossamer and that 1pc Undaunted set is going to continue the trend next patch.

Poisons were implemented to address the excess sustain that we do have in duels, and while most poisons are meh at best, a few are overtuned. You can increase magicka or stamina ability costs by 60% with 100% uptime using poisons. That's absurd. Again, if you make a hard lined "they're allowed, don't complain" rule, experienced players won't take your duels or guild seriously.

TLDR: you need to be more realistic about game mechanics which imbalance 1v1s, but discourage their use with players deciding not to play against them as the main response instead of outright bans. Focus on minimizing drama instead of opinions on balance.

KenaPKK

@Sandman929 allowing LoS in duels only gimps the person who uses it. If you fight straight up in 1v1s, then you will condition yourself to avoid damage and survive without it when fights get tough, making you stronger in open world both when it is and isn't available.

A dueler who runs to a tree when a 1v1 goes sour will never beat a dueler who knows how to recover from a hard fight out in the open.

Strider_Roshin

KenaPKK wrote: »

Looks like a decent start, but this list will create contention in your guild. I offer you a list of warnings from my experience as an officer and acting GM in NA's primary dueling guilds guoing back to last fall.

First, if your guild grows, then you'll end up with a great variety of members, play styles, and opinions regarding game balance. Embrace this. If you take one thing from what I have to say, let it be that your job as GM or officer is to facilitate community growth and activity, not to be "right" or "the best." The goal of your rules is to minimize conflict among members with as few restrictions as possible, NOT to enforce your opinions about duels.

Second, duels are not open world encounters. While some players will use open world builds and not change a thing for duels, others will create dedicated dueling builds. These players may have an ideological disagreement. Just emphasize that they choose who they fight in casual duels. Also, be ready for someone to die in open world and complain that so-and-so didn't follow the dueling rules. Without your guild's signal from both players or an agreement in chat, it's not a formal duel, and there are no rules. Period. Make sure people understand that ahead of time.

By that same logic, you cannot easily detect, confirm, or enforce against changing CP or gear or skills between fights. While changing your CP especially to directly counter another person is kind of a scumbag move, creating a rule outright banning it will just create fights and blame and excuses in chat. Institute an unwritten discouragement of such changes, but don't create such a hard rule. It will only create tension. Remember, people choose who they fight. If you think someone's changing CP, then either suck it up and fight them anyway, change yours too, or just don't fight them.

Line of sight is the only thing you can and should outright ban in general dueling, and it is the norm to ban it. Experienced players will expect this, and it's an easily understood rule to onboard new duelers into your rules. LoS is useful in open world outnumbered encounters, but it's not necessary in a 1v1. The first time you see a fight get extended because some dude who was getting rekt starts tree-humping, you'll understand.

Banning item sets, abilities, or other mechanics which are bugged or op in 1v1s can be defensible, but it can start unnecessary controversy. My advice is to make a short list of mechanics which distort 1v1 balance, discourage their use, and require full disclosure when they are used. Tell members that they don't have to play against op stuff if they don't want to, but do acknowledge that there are op mechanics out there.

For example, regardless of your opinion on banning item sets, Malubeth is bugged, and the big heal ticks that it gives can save players when they should die. It narrows the skill gap between players by saving people from being punished when they make mistakes or get outplayed. Immov pots have the same effect since we have a resource gated combat system built around running people out of stamina with cc chains.

Think of it like the 2h axe bleed bug from a while back. Some people used it, some people didn't, everyone acknowledged it, and we all got along fine since we all knew it was broken. If we'd started banning it, we'd have had unnecessary guild drama and people leaving.

Note that this is for casual guild duel gatherings. Tournaments outright ban overtuned or bugged mechanics.

Lastly, you're mistaken about poisons. Weapon enchantment damage values were buffed to compensate for Transmutation buffs, heavy armor buffs, prismatics being made available to the masses, and buffs to impenetrable. Everyone became MUCH tankier over the last couple of patches, and Gossamer and that 1pc Undaunted set is going to continue the trend next patch.

Poisons were implemented to address the excess sustain that we do have in duels, and while most poisons are meh at best, a few are overtuned. You can increase magicka or stamina ability costs by 60% with 100% uptime using poisons. That's absurd. Again, if you make a hard lined "they're allowed, don't complain" rule, experienced players won't take your duels or guild seriously.

TLDR: you need to be more realistic about game mechanics which imbalance 1v1s, but discourage their use with players deciding not to play against them as the main response instead of outright bans. Focus on minimizing drama instead of opinions on balance.

I appreciate your input Kena, and I will take your advice on minimizing conflict to heart. Thankfully, even though not everyone in my guild agrees on what is and isn't balanced, we all get along quite well, and these rules have always been understood throughout and agreed upon. Never had an issue with people utilizing LoS, but that's most likely due to the fact we always set up duels in a flat open area.

Cathexis

Just saw the thread and posted aome thoughts just as someone who has spent a lot of time dueling

I think the ult rule mighy work better the other way around. I think it would be better to allow for charging to full prior to a bout...

Also LOS should be permitted... I mean, in long range duels it can be an awesome element, and in some situations like fighting a werewolf when you are outgunned, its the only option short of standing and dieing.

Sandman929

Not that I don't appreciate a little elitism, but I'm fine with not being in a "real" dueling guild if the purpose is to make me better at fighting opponents for whom I can dictate their actions. I just don't see the point.

Sandman929

Cathexis wrote: »

Just saw the thread and posted aome thoughts just as someone who has spent a lot of time dueling

I think the ult rule mighy work better the other way around. I think it would be better to allow for charging to full prior to a bout...

Also LOS should be permitted... I mean, in long range duels it can be an awesome element, and in some situations like fighting a werewolf when you are outgunned, its the only option short of standing and dieing.

Unless werewolves are against the rules.

KenaPKK

@Sandman929 wanting to get better is not elitism. The simple fact is that you won't improve at the game if you're permitted to go run away around a rock whenever you start losing a fight. The goal of controlled duels is to win or lose based on your mechanics and your character's capabilities alone. You can't push your limits and improve if you're relying on LoS and immov pots and buggy sets.

Edit: oh I saw the comments about werewolves. Wut? Going werewolf in a 1v1 will get you murdered against anyone who knows what they're doing.

And LoSing doesn't add to skillful ranged duels either. People just end up slipping behind the tree over and over and never dying. We have plenty of mechanics innate to our characters which make ranged duels interesting and skillful.

This thread is turning into a whole lot of L2p. lol If you'd go duel in a respectable organized guild, you'd see why the dueling communities follow these rules.

Sandman929

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Sandman929 wanting to get better is not elitism. The simple fact is that you won't improve at the game if you're permitted to go run away around a rock whenever you start losing a fight. The goal of controlled duels is to win or lose based on your mechanics and your character's capabilities alone.

The elitism was the notion that there are "real" dueling guilds. I'm not interested in my opponents improvement, if they want to run, they can run. If I can't deal with that, then it's something I need to improve. The goal of my controlled duels is to limit numbers. It's hard to get a real measure of what my build is accomplishing in a sea of other peoples abilities.

Sandman929

However, I can appreciate that 1vMalubeth is damned near impossible with certain builds. When I come across something I can't kill, and it can't kill me, then it's a stalemate. I don't see a problem with those.

Sandman929

Everything is L2P, I just prefer learning to play in the PvP environment we have not the construct I can create where there's no running in halls and no groin punches.