SHUFFLE STACK = RUINNING PVP

rfennell_ESO

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I just want one person to post a vid of someone dodging 10 times in a row. You can blur out name if you want, even though I don't see how you would be shaming them just to show a high dodge amount.

You don't have to post a vid of you dodging, (but why not?) It's not the same as showing how to exploit. (In fact, by definition, ZoS said there is no exploit, so if you were to post something it would only be that of game mechanics, no?)

ZoS did NOT say there was no exploit. And you know that. Because you are referring to the only relevant post by ZoS on the subject.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Update: We took a look, and didn't see any instance of Shuffle stacking with itself. ...

Please let us know if you're seeing differently; if you have information, we'd appreciate a PM rather than posting it publicly.

Turning to the Book of English for Future Inmates, this can be summarized as, 'we haven't seen it, but it could be real, and if you see it, don't post any evidence to the forums send it to us by private message.'

Basically, you posted that something was said by ZoS that you know wasn't and posted your desire to see at least one person do what you know ZoS has specifically asked people not to do. I wonder why you would do that. Why would you do that?

Abob wrote: »

There is no shuffle exploit.

Explain how you know there is no shuffle exploit. Oh wait, you can't. Even ZoS can't.

Let me improve your 1337 attempts to change the narrative.

joshhh_nb wrote: »

...I don't believe shuffle stack exists...

This is the type of thing people say when they have no way of knowing the truth. Nobody argues something doesn't exist when they can't possibly know that it doesn't exist unless they have skin in the game. Do you have skin in the game Abob? H

@Waffennacht @Abob

Again, shuffle stack was the red herring. Dodge rates were being hacked via CE, it just so happened that everyone using CE also uses shuffle.

I bet they don't see much "shuffle stacking" on Xbox or PS, mostly because CE isn't there.

Wreuntzylla

DHale wrote: »

Prove it or worry about the five thousand other bugs. You know what ruins pvp.... Bad players on the forum Qqing. Sad sad sad.

So true, permadodge couldn't possibly ruin PvP...

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Wreuntzylla I asked for a video showing ANYTHING like what we are talking about. I'M THE ONLY person to have posted any video even on the subject.

So don't you say that I'm referring to anything other than SHOW SOMETHING.

But no one has. My Point was showing a video of yourself or someone else consecutively dodging moves is Not naming and shaming... it's JUST a video of game play.

Now, the burden of evidence is on those whom claim THAT THEY KNOW there is an exploit. I have seen no such evidence. I feel those whom made the Original claim that There is an exploit should be given just as much scrutiny you have given us for lack of evidence to back these so called claims.

Posting a video of permadodge in a "shufflstack" thread without removing personally identifiable information is in fact naming and shaming, no matter what reason you provide for posting it. If you have any doubt, search through the forums and read the community rules. It's also pretty easy to understand why. The naming and shaming rule must be enforced without regard for intent because its based on avoidance of defamation suits and defamation is a strict liability tort (intent is irrelevant). So, arguing to ZoS that it's just a video of gameplay will not succeed.

Your next argument is specious to say the least. You argue that, "those [who] made the Original claim that There is an exploit should be given just as much scrutiny you have given us for lack of evidence to back these so called claims[.]"

If an accuser posts any information that an exploit does exist, they can be banned. "Deliberately disobeying a request or action by a member of the ZeniMax Online Studios/ESO Team is not permitted at any time." - ESO Forum Community Rules. What did Gina write? "f you have information, we'd appreciate a PM rather than posting it publicly[.]" Hmm, that looks suspiciously like a request to me, how about you?

So, in effect, your position is that people that can be banned for posting information should be given as much scrutiny as those that can't. My opinion is that this cannot pass the fairness test...

You have almost no good argument to argue because of Gina's request. Although, off the top of my head, another approach would be to experiment with animation canceling using basic-attack and shuffle to raise the 20% dodge rate to 80%. It would be difficult to know if this is still effective post-DB, as some people are reporting that the animation exploit went out the door with the patch, but it's better than telling people they should get banned to prove their point.

Serenityx

BFT88 wrote: »

Someone post a video showing shuffle working properly. Didn't Think so.

I personally use shuffle and get the following:

dodge, hit, dodge, hit, dodge, hit

I go up against a few select folks who will not be named and ALWAYS get the following:

dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge


We aren't imagining the things we claim here.

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I just want one person to post a vid of someone dodging 10 times in a row. You can blur out name if you want, even though I don't see how you would be shaming them just to show a high dodge amount.

You don't have to post a vid of you dodging, (but why not?) It's not the same as showing how to exploit. (In fact, by definition, ZoS said there is no exploit, so if you were to post something it would only be that of game mechanics, no?)

ZoS did NOT say there was no exploit. And you know that. Because you are referring to the only relevant post by ZoS on the subject.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Update: We took a look, and didn't see any instance of Shuffle stacking with itself. ...

Please let us know if you're seeing differently; if you have information, we'd appreciate a PM rather than posting it publicly.

Turning to the Book of English for Future Inmates, this can be summarized as, 'we haven't seen it, but it could be real, and if you see it, don't post any evidence to the forums send it to us by private message.'

Basically, you posted that something was said by ZoS that you know wasn't and posted your desire to see at least one person do what you know ZoS has specifically asked people not to do. I wonder why you would do that. Why would you do that?

Abob wrote: »

There is no shuffle exploit.

Explain how you know there is no shuffle exploit. Oh wait, you can't. Even ZoS can't.

Let me improve your 1337 attempts to change the narrative.

joshhh_nb wrote: »

...I don't believe shuffle stack exists...

This is the type of thing people say when they have no way of knowing the truth. Nobody argues something doesn't exist when they can't possibly know that it doesn't exist unless they have skin in the game. Do you have skin in the game Abob? H

@Waffennacht @Abob

Shuffle has two effects. Major evasion, which shows up as simply "major evasion" on my character sheet and the other effect which removes any currently applied snares and grants immunity for 3.5 seconds. I spammed the ability in cyrodil and the "shuffle" effect appeared several times on my character sheet. However with it only lasting 3.5 seconds, it almost dissapeared too fast for me to notice after spamming up to a dozen times. The effect only has a 3.5 second duration, and a reasonably high resource cost (I think around 3.5-4k stamina with no reduction enchants and I believe I had 10% stamina reduction from champion points in thw vid below)Im bad at math but Im sure someone can deduce the actual uptime of the effect when spammed rapidly.
Here is a video too http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/S3r3n1ty17/video/18410005

I didnt feel like bothering with the Xbox video editor to trim it. Go to 1:30ish to see that the major evasion effect is (seemingly) working as intended. I took more than 1/5 hits from both enemys. As for the shuffle effect, I dont see how you can really claim that it is "stacking", youd have to spam it so many times youd 100% of the time run out of resources long before the duration actually added up enough to consider useful or simply die because your not casting any other abilities or heals while your spamming the crap out of shuffle.

Also, I had around 3.6k stam regen in this video which makes it plausible someone could spam this ability more than a dozen times. Pretty much the reason for this video is I was testing a max regen nb build with 5pc willows path and some other sets that give stam regen with 3-4piece. If you want to argue with this, note my weapon damage is something like 2.4k with dual wielding, and medium armor passives. 12% from the medium skill line (while wearing 5 pieces of medium) and 6% of whatever my off-hand weapon damage is when DW. I seemed to have to sacrifice a lot in order to spam the ability like this.

If anyone wants to help me test this further that'd be great. my gamertag is S3r3n1ty17 Xbox NA EP Alliance. I also have to say that so far I am completely unconvinced that this could be a legitimate problem in everyday Cyrodil.

Bosov

AfkNinja wrote: »

joshhh_nb wrote: »

I hate shuffle but I don't believe shuffle stack exists, it is however overpowered. The chance to dodge 1/4 of attacks is op. I was messing about with a friend and I was trying to cc him with concealed weapon from stealth but when I tried he dodged it with shuffle, I tried again and he dodged it and this went on for about 2 more times, until I finally hit him. It's all about luck, it's all rng, (rng-ezus is op.)

You also have to account for the cheap dodge rolls from eternal hunt/ well fitted and combos like vigor with major mending and cloak, dodge roll, shuffle. Shuffle stack exploit doesn't exist. What does exist is the ability to stack skills which enables you to avoid/ out heal incoming damage.

It's 20%. one in five. It's also random, there are times when they will dodge nothing.

I havent seen that happen.. ever. Ive seen people dodge 10+ attacks in a row but i dont think ive ever managed to hit 5 attacks in a row. I dont know what it is and i dont think shuffle can be stacked but something is seriously broken with shuffle

Toc de Malsvi

Shuffle + Dodge rolling(every 4s) + a little bit of lag:

What you get is virtual invincibility provided enemies do not spam non dodgeable attacks, as many times as I've seen players dodge tons of attacks successively, I have also seen players get entirely locked down by Soul Assault/Radiant Destruction/Ambush/Fear/Caltrops and die.

Lag seems to worsen the issue, I find it virtually impossible to land a heavy bow attack on a shuffle/dodge roller and near as I can tell its related to them creating such small windows in which projectiles can hit them and long bow flight time with lag making it nigh impossible to hit that window.

Serenityx

All that is happening is lag. Its really simple. You activate an ability, the target moves so slightly out of that abilitys range add latency and the game can only calculate it as a dodge when it should calculate as "target out of range".Shuffle stack is not the problem cant even believe this thread has gotten this big.

LeifErickson

Have people still noticed shuffle being stronger than it should after DB came out? Just wondering because I have a video that might be interesting to the discussion, but it was from last patch and I'm not sure if shuffle is still an issue.

Soris

It feels like i don't dodge a single thing but sometimes people dodge most of my attacks without even dodge rolling. Or they are so lucky to dodge 4 javelins in a row? Idk. It's just so weird. Cant be 100% sure though. It's like proving god is real or not. But there has to be some way to produce this bug. I think it's very similar to health desync bug as it often happens with lighting staff attacks but not always. Sometimes it also happens in a fight between 2 stamina builds, so no lighting staff there.

Calboy

Bosov wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

joshhh_nb wrote: »

I hate shuffle but I don't believe shuffle stack exists, it is however overpowered. The chance to dodge 1/4 of attacks is op. I was messing about with a friend and I was trying to cc him with concealed weapon from stealth but when I tried he dodged it with shuffle, I tried again and he dodged it and this went on for about 2 more times, until I finally hit him. It's all about luck, it's all rng, (rng-ezus is op.)

You also have to account for the cheap dodge rolls from eternal hunt/ well fitted and combos like vigor with major mending and cloak, dodge roll, shuffle. Shuffle stack exploit doesn't exist. What does exist is the ability to stack skills which enables you to avoid/ out heal incoming damage.

It's 20%. one in five. It's also random, there are times when they will dodge nothing.

I havent seen that happen.. ever. Ive seen people dodge 10+ attacks in a row but i dont think ive ever managed to hit 5 attacks in a row. I dont know what it is and i dont think shuffle can be stacked but something is seriously broken with shuffle

No you haven't. The only way you could have seen that is from someone using shuffle while also spamming dodge roll which is what people are assuming is 'shuffle stacking'

Ampnode

lmfao

Lord-Otto

It's simple, really.
Dodge rolling is OP. Having 100% dodge throughout the whole slow animation (it actually persists a bit longer even) is way too much. I say it again, there is a bloody reason why Dark Souls' infamous Dark Wood Grain Ring did not make it to the successor games.
ZOS need to reduce the invincibility frames on dodge rolling, and all will be fine.
Why can I fix sh*t in five minutes, when the almighty combat lead designer isn't even acknowledging problems? Is he really that useless?

Chilla_Deluxe

Its because all of the complainers and people who can't manage to actually put some time into the game to become good why everything gets nerfed, sad case but yeah. Sore losers will always be losers

Paraflex

Shuffle does need a nerf its a bit to strong. Stamina duelers all run this ability for a reason its OP.

The game doesn't need any more ways to always survive no matter whats coming at you.

Serenityx

Paraflex wrote: »

Shuffle does need a nerf its a bit to strong. Stamina duelers all run this ability for a reason its OP.

The game doesn't need any more ways to always survive no matter whats coming at you.

Lol, sorry but the fact that you mention it being OP in a duel gave me a hearty laugh. The only reason people run it in duels is to remove snares, and its a pretty costly ability. The evasion is almost worthless in a duel/anything less than 1v4-5 situations...