SHUFFLE STACK = RUINNING PVP

Rohamad_Ali

Not sure this is really a thing but ok . Stop shuffling the deck if it is .

holosoul

I for one have never once encountered a player using an invulnerability exploit of any kind.
I would certainly welcome a video of a player being immune to all damage sources for an extended timeframe. That is not from the first person, simply a video of this phenomenon occurring 'at all'

Edit: histbark or spectres gives only 20% for 40% total with major evasion
0.4^10 = 0.0001048576 (0.01%) = 1/10,000 for 10 dodges (but still plausible)

In case you were wondering, 0.5^10 (50% dodge chance dodging 10 times back to back) is about 0.1% (.09765625%) and 1 in 1000 is not impossible given thousands of battles per day. If anyone can provide a video with a combat log showing 15 or 20 consecutive dodges then it should be considered as reasonable proof of concept.

Dodge rolling absolutely does not count.

Thanks for your cooperation

xylena

Nope, shuffle/blur is fine. When it is combined with real dodges every 4 secs, you can keep up a huge dodge chance. Shuffle/Blur alone is not worth much.

^ This. Minmax stam builds are still rolling as much as they want. The solution is soft caps on regen, not more ability nerfs (still, I wouldn't cry if they nerfed shuffle, because screw boring passive "must-have" skills like that).

Bfish22090

it stacks with roll dodge

Rohamad_Ali

Ever been hunted down by a self Det horde spamming crit Rush and shield charge with talons exploding out of the ground every where ? Darn tootin I'm gonna shuffle , scuttle dodge roll my bow holding booty out of that mess full sprint . If using the game mechanics is a crime , I'd like ZoS to make that call , not players .

PurifedBladez

It doesn't stack.

DDemon

https://youtu.be/Io4fxdBEApc

KundaliniHero

Wait until you have to deal with Shuffle stacking and Bone Shield, there's a new sorc in town and its called any stam build.

Ampnode

Still no proof.

GG

Abob

I hope they remove it, although what really annoys me is that its use is mandatory if you want to be successful, and your character looks blurry so you can't appreciate the armor and weapons while fighting.

maxjapank

The_Outsider wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

brandishsteel wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Nikkor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno please please emergency hot fix this.

thank you so much

@Nikkor
How do I shuffle stack? I want to know so that I can tell ZOS how to fix it.

A video has been sent already showing how it's done.

The_Outsider wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Nikkor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno please please emergency hot fix this.

thank you so much

@Nikkor
How do I shuffle stack? I want to know so that I can tell ZOS how to fix it.

A video has been sent already showing how it's done.

Can you link it pls?

ye , link it or it doesn't happen

Rofl. I understand your disbelief. I'd feel the same if it wasn't done and verified by people I trust. But it isn't hard to notice someone doing it in game. If they suddenly run away and everything you throw at them misses, then you may have found someone using the exploit. I'm all for giving rng the benefit of the doubt, too. I won't judge them based on that one experience. But when the same things happens again and again from the same player...and your in-game friends are reporting the same about "said player"...then you begin to see.

Zos doesn't allow links of exploits, by the way. But I will say this...I enjoy pvp regardless of what others do. My guild and I adapt and do well every patch. And we have fun. Just keep your honesty and enjoy.

The bold part. Is why I don't believe. lol.
Do you realize how hard it is to hit certain players (myself, I think, included) with projectiles? When moving about the field of battle, attacking or defending, I'm constantly cycling a rotation of Shuffle/Roll/Cloak/Roll/Vigor/Rally/Repeat. Even if something does land, my health doesn't drop because of the health ticks. If you watch these "individuals" who are supposedly exploiting, they do something very similar at all times. The play style is like the antithesis of projectile damage.

And IF said players ARE achieving this legendary "90%" dodge chance, they would be truly unkillable. Fact is: they are not. All it takes is a well timed gap closer, some hard CC, and some AOE damage.

EDIT: PS, where is video?

It's fine mate. Believe what you will. And I fully understand you to not believe until you learn how to do it yourself. In fact, it's better if you don't believe it. Just have fun and keep being honest. I'm honest, too. Always will be. And knowing who exploits doesn't take away from my pvp experience.

Oh, and there is a difference between something landing and something continually missing.

Ender1310

Are these players killing you? Are you mad you didn't get to bust your viscious death nut? If they are just getting away who cares?

kadar

maxjapank wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

brandishsteel wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Nikkor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno please please emergency hot fix this.

thank you so much

@Nikkor
How do I shuffle stack? I want to know so that I can tell ZOS how to fix it.

A video has been sent already showing how it's done.

The_Outsider wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Nikkor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno please please emergency hot fix this.

thank you so much

@Nikkor
How do I shuffle stack? I want to know so that I can tell ZOS how to fix it.

A video has been sent already showing how it's done.

Can you link it pls?

ye , link it or it doesn't happen

Rofl. I understand your disbelief. I'd feel the same if it wasn't done and verified by people I trust. But it isn't hard to notice someone doing it in game. If they suddenly run away and everything you throw at them misses, then you may have found someone using the exploit. I'm all for giving rng the benefit of the doubt, too. I won't judge them based on that one experience. But when the same things happens again and again from the same player...and your in-game friends are reporting the same about "said player"...then you begin to see.

Zos doesn't allow links of exploits, by the way. But I will say this...I enjoy pvp regardless of what others do. My guild and I adapt and do well every patch. And we have fun. Just keep your honesty and enjoy.

The bold part. Is why I don't believe. lol.
Do you realize how hard it is to hit certain players (myself, I think, included) with projectiles? When moving about the field of battle, attacking or defending, I'm constantly cycling a rotation of Shuffle/Roll/Cloak/Roll/Vigor/Rally/Repeat. Even if something does land, my health doesn't drop because of the health ticks. If you watch these "individuals" who are supposedly exploiting, they do something very similar at all times. The play style is like the antithesis of projectile damage.

And IF said players ARE achieving this legendary "90%" dodge chance, they would be truly unkillable. Fact is: they are not. All it takes is a well timed gap closer, some hard CC, and some AOE damage.

EDIT: PS, where is video?

It's fine mate. Believe what you will. And I fully understand you to not believe until you learn how to do it yourself. In fact, it's better if you don't believe it. Just have fun and keep being honest. I'm honest, too. Always will be. And knowing who exploits doesn't take away from my pvp experience.

Oh, and there is a difference between something landing and something continually missing.

Yup, agreed. I'm just sick and tired of all the exploit screaming when no one (or at least the people screaming) have any proof. I'm coming from a place of regularly participating in killing the "Shuffle stackers", and run a build and play style similar to what the exploiters do. Truth is, I can achieve similar results, and I've got to clue how to exploit shuffle. This is why I doubt.

Lyar09

It's funny really. People claim there's a shuffle exploit yet there has been no evidence to back it up. I've searched Google and YouTube for video evidence and can't find it. So here's some knowledge for those claiming a shuffle exploit. The ability does not, I repeat, does not, give you 20% dodge chance. It clearly says on the ability tooltip, it INCREASES your dodge chance by 20%. Big difference. Everyone has different rng. You cannot test dodge chance either. You will not replicate the same results with dodge chance on the same player or different players.

Personally, I hate the dodge mechanic of this game. There should be a counter to it. Like a precision chance for accuracy of your attacks. But that will never happen.

So until there is actual evidence. Quit claiming and rage telling another player for dodging your attacks.

NativeJoe

Serenityx wrote: »

Shuffle stacking is a completely irrelevant problem compared to all the other ones currently in game. I dont even get why people complain about things like this when all you have to do is stack shields on a sorc for literal invincibility.

Not true... just about Everyone knows this. if your one of the few who still believe this... then go take some dueling lessons.
Start talking to people. because everyone should be able to use atleast 1 of the 3 tactics used to get around/through shields

Mumyo

Master_Kas wrote: »

Still waiting for proof

I didn't see a single video showcasing this. It would help alot
But i met some guys who are really lucky with the dodging since last patch...

FloppyTouch

Nerf mDK!

Sunburnt_Penguin

Bugged shuffle, shuffle is bugged.

Wreuntzylla

Lyar09 wrote: »

It's funny really. People claim there's a shuffle exploit yet there has been no evidence to back it up. I've searched Google and YouTube for video evidence and can't find it. So here's some knowledge for those claiming a shuffle exploit. The ability does not, I repeat, does not, give you 20% dodge chance. It clearly says on the ability tooltip, it INCREASES your dodge chance by 20%. Big difference. Everyone has different rng. You cannot test dodge chance either. You will not replicate the same results with dodge chance on the same player or different players.

Personally, I hate the dodge mechanic of this game. There should be a counter to it. Like a precision chance for accuracy of your attacks. But that will never happen.

So until there is actual evidence. Quit claiming and rage telling another player for dodging your attacks.

They apparently fixed the issue on live. If specific people keep their mouth shut until then, they might dodge a heaping handful of humiliation. You know, in the event someone can no longer stand the hypocrisy and fail to respect ZoS' request not to post data. Some forum bans are worth it.

Wreuntzylla

Lyar09 wrote: »

It's funny really. People claim there's a shuffle exploit yet there has been no evidence to back it up. I've searched Google and YouTube for video evidence and can't find it. So here's some knowledge for those claiming a shuffle exploit. The ability does not, I repeat, does not, give you 20% dodge chance. It clearly says on the ability tooltip, it INCREASES your dodge chance by 20%. Big difference. Everyone has different rng. You cannot test dodge chance either. You will not replicate the same results with dodge chance on the same player or different players.

Personally, I hate the dodge mechanic of this game. There should be a counter to it. Like a precision chance for accuracy of your attacks. But that will never happen.

So until there is actual evidence. Quit claiming and rage telling another player for dodging your attacks.

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

They apparently fixed the issue on test. If specific people keep their mouth shut until then, they might dodge a heaping handful of humiliation. You know, in the event someone can no longer stand the hypocrisy and fail to respect ZoS' request not to post data. Some forum bans are worth it.

Lyar09

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

It's funny really. People claim there's a shuffle exploit yet there has been no evidence to back it up. I've searched Google and YouTube for video evidence and can't find it. So here's some knowledge for those claiming a shuffle exploit. The ability does not, I repeat, does not, give you 20% dodge chance. It clearly says on the ability tooltip, it INCREASES your dodge chance by 20%. Big difference. Everyone has different rng. You cannot test dodge chance either. You will not replicate the same results with dodge chance on the same player or different players.

Personally, I hate the dodge mechanic of this game. There should be a counter to it. Like a precision chance for accuracy of your attacks. But that will never happen.

So until there is actual evidence. Quit claiming and rage telling another player for dodging your attacks.

They apparently fixed the issue on live. If specific people keep their mouth shut until then, they might dodge a heaping handful of humiliation. You know, in the event someone can no longer stand the hypocrisy and fail to respect ZoS' request not to post data. Some forum bans are worth it.

I read no such things in any of the patch notes

aLi3nZ

I will try record video next time I 1v1 and see this. It is pretty frustrating when you go to finish off someone using shuffle with concealed weapon and you hit the button 5 times, Magika is drained and every single one is dodged except maybe 1. This happened to me several times. Same fight same shuffle user. I guess I can spam lotus fan as that can't be dodged although it just seems like cheese tactic spamming a gap closer when I am already right next to them

RinaldoGandolphi

I don't think folks are "stacking Shuffle or what not, i think the skill itself(and RNG) is just flatout bugged or broken.

Just doing a small test on Crystal Fragments the tooltip says other skills have a 35% chance to Proc instant cast.

Over 1000 casts of Impulse i proced Frags 530 times...thats a 53% chance to proc, that simply should happen not even on a good day.

it goes deeper then that, Moijician thinks Shuffle works as follows:

manny254 wrote:

I am fairly certain that the hysteria around shuffle is related to what you described, and how the mechanic actually works. I have not tested this, but I am convinced that major evasion causes you to continually dodge for a very short time.

What Moijican is describing here is what i have experienced as well. Once that dodge chance kicks in, there is a 0.5 to 1 sec interval where your pretty much invincible as you will dodge every single attack against you that could be dodged with a normal dodge roll This is why that dodge chance is far higher then 20%, Also, Elude and its morphs are the only RNG based skill or set that don't have some kind of cooldown between procs allowing it to proc back to back if you have good RNG.

This explains the issues other posters such as Xeven was describing in his tests.

Xeven wrote:

My testing and gut feeling suggest that shuffle works like dodge roll. When it procs, you dodge everything in a short window of time. So, if your light attack procs shuffle, your following crushing shock will always miss. This behavior alone puts shuffle far higher than 20% which is backed up by my own tests.

That said, this behavior does not explain dodging 7 attacks in a row. At 20%, the odds of dodging 7 attacks in a row are 1 in 78,125.

In other words, you are 26 times more likely to be struck by lightning at least once in your lifetime (1 in 3000).

The ONLY thing that explains this absurd amount of dodging your are seeing is what Moijican said which has been my experience with Shuffle...when it procs it creates a window of invulnerability that no ability in the game that could be dodged can hit you for a breif window of time. This is OP beyond OP...this is more OP then Blinding Flashes and Cinder Storm ever was.

@manny254 @Xeven

I quoted your insights into how this works along with mine, and feel free to chime in with any updated thoughts you may have.My gut tells me the skill works like dodge that once the dodge chance procs you dodge everything for a shot window which in reality makes the skill trend far far more then a 20% chance.

the only way to fix this would of course be to put some sort of cooldown on Major Evasion...Blood Spawn, Valkyn Skoria, and most other RNG based sets and skills have some sort of cooldown, it would make sense for elude to have the same. Just my 2 cents. I don't think any is a cheater with this skill, i just think the way the skill works mechanically makes it far more then a 20% chance to dodge.

If it stays as is i'll probably put a 5 piece Tava's Set on my DK and use Shuffle as the dodge chance is absurd in conjunction with Blood Spawn and all the dodges procing Tava's i'll have Bats or Standards pretty much on tap....we will see i guess.

Sunburnt_Penguin

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

It's funny really. People claim there's a shuffle exploit yet there has been no evidence to back it up. I've searched Google and YouTube for video evidence and can't find it. So here's some knowledge for those claiming a shuffle exploit. The ability does not, I repeat, does not, give you 20% dodge chance. It clearly says on the ability tooltip, it INCREASES your dodge chance by 20%. Big difference. Everyone has different rng. You cannot test dodge chance either. You will not replicate the same results with dodge chance on the same player or different players.

Personally, I hate the dodge mechanic of this game. There should be a counter to it. Like a precision chance for accuracy of your attacks. But that will never happen.

So until there is actual evidence. Quit claiming and rage telling another player for dodging your attacks.

They apparently fixed the issue on live. If specific people keep their mouth shut until then, they might dodge a heaping handful of humiliation. You know, in the event someone can no longer stand the hypocrisy and fail to respect ZoS' request not to post data. Some forum bans are worth it.

@Wreuntzylla do you know when this was fixed?

tennant94

Was duelling somebody today and they roll dodged my cripple(fair enough), then dodged my soul harvest(fs), then immediately dodged my spectral bow straight after. I just gave up.

Destyran

Jordaen wrote: »

I'm sorry for all the people that got 1vxd and their excuse is "shuffle stacker". sorry to inform you but its not a thing

I have had this happen to me on my stamplar its casting shuffle whike dodge rolling and casting again and again. Tbh i dont know what i did but i had shiffle up a really long time and barely got touched in big d tick all im saying is i was shoulder bobbin like mike tyson

Wreuntzylla

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

It's funny really. People claim there's a shuffle exploit yet there has been no evidence to back it up. I've searched Google and YouTube for video evidence and can't find it. So here's some knowledge for those claiming a shuffle exploit. The ability does not, I repeat, does not, give you 20% dodge chance. It clearly says on the ability tooltip, it INCREASES your dodge chance by 20%. Big difference. Everyone has different rng. You cannot test dodge chance either. You will not replicate the same results with dodge chance on the same player or different players.

Personally, I hate the dodge mechanic of this game. There should be a counter to it. Like a precision chance for accuracy of your attacks. But that will never happen.

So until there is actual evidence. Quit claiming and rage telling another player for dodging your attacks.

They apparently fixed the issue on live. If specific people keep their mouth shut until then, they might dodge a heaping handful of humiliation. You know, in the event someone can no longer stand the hypocrisy and fail to respect ZoS' request not to post data. Some forum bans are worth it.

@Wreuntzylla do you know when this was fixed?

I will ask. I used the word "apparent" because the news comes from a reliable (if somewhat shady) acquaintance.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I don't think folks are "stacking Shuffle or what not, i think the skill itself(and RNG) is just flatout bugged or broken.

Just doing a small test on Crystal Fragments the tooltip says other skills have a 35% chance to Proc instant cast.

Over 1000 casts of Impulse i proced Frags 530 times...thats a 53% chance to proc, that simply should happen not even on a good day.

it goes deeper then that, Moijician thinks Shuffle works as follows:

manny254 wrote:

I am fairly certain that the hysteria around shuffle is related to what you described, and how the mechanic actually works. I have not tested this, but I am convinced that major evasion causes you to continually dodge for a very short time.

What Moijican is describing here is what i have experienced as well. Once that dodge chance kicks in, there is a 0.5 to 1 sec interval where your pretty much invincible as you will dodge every single attack against you that could be dodged with a normal dodge roll This is why that dodge chance is far higher then 20%, Also, Elude and its morphs are the only RNG based skill or set that don't have some kind of cooldown between procs allowing it to proc back to back if you have good RNG.

This explains the issues other posters such as Xeven was describing in his tests.

Xeven wrote:

My testing and gut feeling suggest that shuffle works like dodge roll. When it procs, you dodge everything in a short window of time. So, if your light attack procs shuffle, your following crushing shock will always miss. This behavior alone puts shuffle far higher than 20% which is backed up by my own tests.

That said, this behavior does not explain dodging 7 attacks in a row. At 20%, the odds of dodging 7 attacks in a row are 1 in 78,125.

In other words, you are 26 times more likely to be struck by lightning at least once in your lifetime (1 in 3000).

The ONLY thing that explains this absurd amount of dodging your are seeing is what Moijican said which has been my experience with Shuffle...when it procs it creates a window of invulnerability that no ability in the game that could be dodged can hit you for a breif window of time. This is OP beyond OP...this is more OP then Blinding Flashes and Cinder Storm ever was.

@manny254 @Xeven

I quoted your insights into how this works along with mine, and feel free to chime in with any updated thoughts you may have.My gut tells me the skill works like dodge that once the dodge chance procs you dodge everything for a shot window which in reality makes the skill trend far far more then a 20% chance.

the only way to fix this would of course be to put some sort of cooldown on Major Evasion...Blood Spawn, Valkyn Skoria, and most other RNG based sets and skills have some sort of cooldown, it would make sense for elude to have the same. Just my 2 cents. I don't think any is a cheater with this skill, i just think the way the skill works mechanically makes it far more then a 20% chance to dodge.

If it stays as is i'll probably put a 5 piece Tava's Set on my DK and use Shuffle as the dodge chance is absurd in conjunction with Blood Spawn and all the dodges procing Tava's i'll have Bats or Standards pretty much on tap....we will see i guess.

The problem is that specific people are able to gain 100% dodge in every fight.

I made a post somewhere about Maiq II (a fictional name to protect the guilty as ZoS requires). I submitted evidence to ZoS of multiple interactions including one showing perfect dodge for 20sec while I was spamming one skill (cripple) as a test. Maiq II rolled twice in that entire window. I recorded 15 consecutive dodges, 10 after the last of the two dodge rolls. If you think being 26 times more likely to be struck by lightning is freaky, compute the odds of 10 dodges in a row.... I was running with two others, and each similarly recorded perfect strings of dodges as I did.

So, unfortunately, empirical evidence doesn't support this theory.

A couple of perfect dodgers are known to us. We questioned them and their response was not only completely out of character, but scripted. One of them continued to send whispers for something like 30min afterwards and now has gone completely silent although he used to whisper on a regular basis. It's a shame because we used to have great respect for the guild this person is part of, but as they say, even one bad egg spoils the soup...

One perfect dodger is now posting in this thread and arguing along the same lines as you...

@RinaldoGandolphi

socivL

Rakkul wrote: »

nerf Shield Stack
now
nerf Shuffle Stack.

What next?

rite.
whut r dey gonna do next
make the ground flat and take away line of site rocks/pillars/hills and ability to run for ever and ever and ever, like forest gumpians

RinaldoGandolphi

@Wreuntzylla

Im mostly a Magic DK tank build, I don't use Shuffle. I do however want to believe that the skill is simply over-performing/bugged which is why people are using it so heavily....im going to hold out hope folks are not cheating with it.

Im also going to hope that ZOS maybe dials it back a little bit.

Wreuntzylla

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@Wreuntzylla

Im mostly a Magic DK tank build, I don't use Shuffle. I do however want to believe that the skill is simply over-performing/bugged which is why people are using it so heavily....im going to hold out hope folks are not cheating with it.

Im also going to hope that ZOS maybe dials it back a little bit.

Fair enough. Pessimism should be met with optimism from time to time!